Editing Talk:Captain Falcon
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:Did you see the photos on the Priority page of Captain Falcon clearly cancelling out attacks that were labeled with '''high''' priority? Just go and test it out for yourself. As I can recall, priority happens when two hitboxes collide and from my priority testing, Captain Falcon priority isn't any worse than any other characters. The priority range in ''Smash Bros.'' is 8%, and almost all of Captain Falcon's attacks contain hitboxes that deal double digit damage. As such, his attacks either clang or even cancel out other attack of their class. The reason Captain Falcon has so much trouble landing blows has nothing to do with priority, but his poorly placed hitboxes. On a final note, just because I'm currently not a professional smasher or an active member of Smashboards does not mean they know than me. I can guaranteed that I have properly tested and research more than the people on SWF have. It is also a shame that you think so lowly of your fellow Smash Wikians. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 21:00, June 25, 2010 (UTC) | :Did you see the photos on the Priority page of Captain Falcon clearly cancelling out attacks that were labeled with '''high''' priority? Just go and test it out for yourself. As I can recall, priority happens when two hitboxes collide and from my priority testing, Captain Falcon priority isn't any worse than any other characters. The priority range in ''Smash Bros.'' is 8%, and almost all of Captain Falcon's attacks contain hitboxes that deal double digit damage. As such, his attacks either clang or even cancel out other attack of their class. The reason Captain Falcon has so much trouble landing blows has nothing to do with priority, but his poorly placed hitboxes. On a final note, just because I'm currently not a professional smasher or an active member of Smashboards does not mean they know than me. I can guaranteed that I have properly tested and research more than the people on SWF have. It is also a shame that you think so lowly of your fellow Smash Wikians. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 21:00, June 25, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::Certain attacks canceling other attacks is not on the whole relevant to this discussion. What is important is what I will call "practical" priority. That is, in the context of competitive play, do the attacks that are most advantageous have good priority in the situations in which they use them. In the case of something like this, yes, someone with professional experience does have a better understanding of this. Research is vitally important, don't get me wrong, but don't think that simply going through a chart and matching up numbers always comes out to show competitive usability. I have played this game (in the first month alone, Semicolon and I recorded at least 150 hours of Brawl play, and that's not including our Melee play before that and the year after that where we played Brawl virtually everyday) and have tested Falcon's priority in gameplay, and I honestly can't find any situation in which he has the advantage. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:46, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ::Certain attacks canceling other attacks is not on the whole relevant to this discussion. What is important is what I will call "practical" priority. That is, in the context of competitive play, do the attacks that are most advantageous have good priority in the situations in which they use them. In the case of something like this, yes, someone with professional experience does have a better understanding of this. Research is vitally important, don't get me wrong, but don't think that simply going through a chart and matching up numbers always comes out to show competitive usability. I have played this game (in the first month alone, Semicolon and I recorded at least 150 hours of Brawl play, and that's not including our Melee play before that and the year after that where we played Brawl virtually everyday) and have tested Falcon's priority in gameplay, and I honestly can't find any situation in which he has the advantage. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:46, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::The definition of priority is "a property of hitboxes in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series that describes their behavior when interacting with other hitboxes". As such, priority '''only''' refers to how a hitbox will either clang, cancel out, or get cancelled out by another hitbox. So yes, hitboxes clashing with other hitboxes is the whole relevant of the discussion and the definition of priority does not refer to how "advantageous" an attack is in a certain situation. There is no other factor that priority affects and the pros have greatly misconstrue the concept of priority over the years. How else would I have heard and read such ridiculous claims such as how Captain Falcon's forward smash gets cancelled out by jabs (with is completely false) or how Egg Roll cancels out the Falcon | :::The definition of priority is "a property of hitboxes in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series that describes their behavior when interacting with other hitboxes". As such, priority '''only''' refers to how a hitbox will either clang, cancel out, or get cancelled out by another hitbox. So yes, hitboxes clashing with other hitboxes is the whole relevant of the discussion and the definition of priority does not refer to how "advantageous" an attack is in a certain situation. There is no other factor that priority affects and the pros have greatly misconstrue the concept of priority over the years. How else would I have heard and read such ridiculous claims such as how Captain Falcon's forward smash gets cancelled out by jabs (with is completely false) or how Egg Roll cancels out the Falcon Punce (again, completely false). You are the only one I heard who came up with "practical priority", which is basically referring to how easy it is to land an attack. In the '''real''' definition of priority, Captain Falcon's priority does not "suck" nor does anyone's priority for that matter. Also, that means '''no one''' has a notable priority advantage over another. On a final note, I have played ''Brawl'' for over 1300 hours and at least played ''Melee'' for 800 hours (file got deleted twice so I don't have my true play time recorded) so again, don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about due to inexperience. You do not need to be a professional smasher to be knowledgeable about the fine details of the game. If you still believe I'm wrong about priority after this and reading the article Mako Shark and I put so much work into, I can easily get more photos that proves that Captain Falcon's priority does not "suck". You should accept the fact that the people on SWF and the like were wrong about priority as I have objective evidence that proves them wrong written in a very fine article. Such evidence and statistics is more valuable than anyone's experience, especially since people tend to see what they want to believe instead of the truth. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 05:54, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::What we have then is a failure of the common definition of "priority" as opposed to the technical definition. There should probably be a note on the priority page to that effect, saying something like "because no one figured this out before it permeated everything, when some says "x has low priority", they may mean "x's best moves deal low enough damage that the character appears to be programmed to have low priority"". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 12:53, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ::::What we have then is a failure of the common definition of "priority" as opposed to the technical definition. There should probably be a note on the priority page to that effect, saying something like "because no one figured this out before it permeated everything, when some says "x has low priority", they may mean "x's best moves deal low enough damage that the character appears to be programmed to have low priority"". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 12:53, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::I don't believe that will be necessary. Captain Falcon's strongest attacks are among the most damaging in the game. There is no reason people should had assume that Captain Falcon forward smash has low priority and is cancelled out by any attack when it is clearly not cancelled out by any non special and it cancels out many of the attacks that were said to cancel it out. It seems to me that whenever someone was labeled with "low" priority, it is just that their attacks had unfavorably placed hitboxes, which is the case with Captain Falcon and it seems that those that were labeled with "high" priority had favorably placed hitboxes in their attacks, such as with Meta Knight. Raptor Boost is another attack of Captain Falcon like his forward smash that has been constantly blasted with having "low" priority, though this one is more understandable. What people seem to be forgetting is that the hitbox of Raptor Boost only comes out when Captain Falcon is right next to the opponent. As such, those with long reach such as Marth, can often hit a Raptor Boosting Captain Falcon before the hitbox comes out, giving the illusion of his Raptor Boost being cancelled out. Though in reality, a hitbox came in contact with Captain Falcon's hurtbox, causing him to stop his attack, but any character will stop in the middle of any attack should an opposing hitbox come in contact with their hurtbox unless said attack has invincibility or super armor frames. Some of the attacks that did get labeled with "high" priority I will never understand, such as how Ness' tilts got labeled with having "extreme" priority. The point is, people have always seem to know what priority is, but falsely claim to have seen so and so attacks getting often cancelled out by other attacks, causing them to conclude that so and so has low priority. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 16:48, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | :::::I don't believe that will be necessary. Captain Falcon's strongest attacks are among the most damaging in the game. There is no reason people should had assume that Captain Falcon forward smash has low priority and is cancelled out by any attack when it is clearly not cancelled out by any non special and it cancels out many of the attacks that were said to cancel it out. It seems to me that whenever someone was labeled with "low" priority, it is just that their attacks had unfavorably placed hitboxes, which is the case with Captain Falcon and it seems that those that were labeled with "high" priority had favorably placed hitboxes in their attacks, such as with Meta Knight. Raptor Boost is another attack of Captain Falcon like his forward smash that has been constantly blasted with having "low" priority, though this one is more understandable. What people seem to be forgetting is that the hitbox of Raptor Boost only comes out when Captain Falcon is right next to the opponent. As such, those with long reach such as Marth, can often hit a Raptor Boosting Captain Falcon before the hitbox comes out, giving the illusion of his Raptor Boost being cancelled out. Though in reality, a hitbox came in contact with Captain Falcon's hurtbox, causing him to stop his attack, but any character will stop in the middle of any attack should an opposing hitbox come in contact with their hurtbox unless said attack has invincibility or super armor frames. Some of the attacks that did get labeled with "high" priority I will never understand, such as how Ness' tilts got labeled with having "extreme" priority. The point is, people have always seem to know what priority is, but falsely claim to have seen so and so attacks getting often cancelled out by other attacks, causing them to conclude that so and so has low priority. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 16:48, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::::That said, there is still a massive difference between what priority is and what people think it is, and explaining why this is so on the priority page is important for that reason. We should then replace "character has low priority" with "character has unfavourable hitboxes" and such. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 17:40, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ::::::That said, there is still a massive difference between what priority is and what people think it is, and explaining why this is so on the priority page is important for that reason. We should then replace "character has low priority" with "character has unfavourable hitboxes" and such. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 17:40, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::::Fine, by your esoteric, unaccepted, and irrelevant definition of priority, Falcon's priority is good. Honestly, there are so many things I'd like to say, but I highly doubt any of them actually would matter and none of them I give enough of a damn about to say. I'm not going to take time out of my day to argue about a shitty character, so fuck it, I give up. I'm not admitting that you're right, just that I don't give a damn. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 21:40, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | :::::::Fine, by your esoteric, unaccepted, and irrelevant definition of priority, Falcon's priority is good. Honestly, there are so many things I'd like to say, but I highly doubt any of them actually would matter and none of them I give enough of a damn about to say. I'm not going to take time out of my day to argue about a shitty character, so fuck it, I give up. I'm not admitting that you're right, just that I don't give a damn. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 21:40, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::::::How about if we made two pages called [[Priority (mechanic)] and [[Priority (concept)], with the former being the technical these-are-the-facts definition and the latter being the general this-is-how-everyone-understands-the-word definition? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 23:31, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ::::::::How about if we made two pages called [[Priority (mechanic)]] and [[Priority (concept)]], with the former being the technical these-are-the-facts definition and the latter being the general this-is-how-everyone-understands-the-word definition? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 23:31, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::That shouldn't be necessary. From everything I read about priority, it is about attacks cancelling out other attacks through hitbox collision, which is perfectly covered in the Priority article. The misconception section you added to the priority page is good enough. We shouldn't create an unnecessary page just because people believe they saw Raptor Boost and such being cancelled out by other attacks through hitbox collision. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 23:41, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | :::::::::That shouldn't be necessary. From everything I read about priority, it is about attacks cancelling out other attacks through hitbox collision, which is perfectly covered in the Priority article. The misconception section you added to the priority page is good enough. We shouldn't create an unnecessary page just because people believe they saw Raptor Boost and such being cancelled out by other attacks through hitbox collision. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 23:41, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::::::::Clarinet Hawk, there's no need to be rude. Please calm down. Saying that everyone else thinks this is not an argument, it's debate by consensus. Let's approach this problem calmly. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 01:54, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | ::::::::Clarinet Hawk, there's no need to be rude. Please calm down. Saying that everyone else thinks this is not an argument, it's debate by consensus. Let's approach this problem calmly. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 01:54, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | ||
