Editing Forum:Why are Wario and Ness considered low tier characters?

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Wario has the third fastest air speed in the game and can turn around midair without losing speed. He's small for a character in his weight class, Wario Bike helps greatly with recovery, air game is pretty good, ground game isn't quite as good as his air game, but isn't useless either. Boost Smash isn't a killer, but helps out Wario on the ground. Chomp can be used to counter shield grabs.

Ness has decent tilts, a yo-yo that's good for racking up damage, and a dash attack with some qualities like a disjointed hitbox. His back throw and bair when sweetspotted are very powerful.

They are both floaty, but floatyness isn't as much of a problem as it was in Melee due to not becoming helpless when air dodging. --[[User:TStick|TStick]] ([[User talk:TStick|talk]]) 03:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Wario has some laggy moves, say his down smash, or some of his tilts. His recovery is small if by Up B, situational if by Side B, and patience is needed if by Down B. He has unusually moderate KO power with his forward smash/tilt, and his up aerial. His crawl is somewhat useless unless for mindgames.

And Ness. He's low tier? Never knew. He has a gimp-countered Up B recovery, his PK Flash is slow, Forward smash a little, and his yo-yos are sorta weak when the percentage is low. Otherwise, Ness is pretty good to be of higher tier. [[User:Zexas A.|Zexas A.]] ([[User talk:Zexas A.|talk]]) 03:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
:Just a reminder, there is no OFFICIAL tier list yet.  All of it is just speculation.  As for Wario, he looks to me to be a lot like Mewtwo was in Melee.  He's got a good recovery and has a lot of things going for him that one would think will make him a good character, but he just can't live up to his potential.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 15:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

::Why not? What's wrong with him? And even if he IS low tier, that's not going to stop me from playing as him (he is so fun to use in just-for-fun fights). [[User:Maxiscool|Maxiscool]] ([[User talk:Maxiscool|talk]]) 15:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why exactly yet, he just doesn't feel like he has a good chance at wining.  And why would him being low tier stop you from playing him?  I advocate fully for tiers, but even more so for the enjoyment of Smash.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 18:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
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	I don't know why exactly yet, he just doesn't feel like he has a good chance at wining. And why would him being low tier stop you from playing him? I advocate fully for tiers, but even more so for the enjoyment of Smash. [[User:Clarinet Hawk\|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk\|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk\|contributions]])</small> 18:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)		I don't know why exactly yet, he just doesn't feel like he has a good chance at wining. And why would him being low tier stop you from playing him? I advocate fully for tiers, but even more so for the enjoyment of Smash. [[User:Clarinet Hawk\|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk\|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk\|contributions]])</small> 18:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

	I'll still main Wario if he's bottom tier, but I think he's better than Ganondorf. The Wario Bike doesn't have to be used on stage and although Down Smash is pretty useless in one on one battles, you don't have to use it. --[[User:TStick\|TStick]] ([[User talk:TStick\|talk]]) 18:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
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