Editing Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1
From SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki
Jump to navigationJump to search
The edit can be undone. Please check the comparison below to verify that this is what you want to do, and then publish the changes below to finish undoing the edit.
Latest revision | Your text | ||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{proposal}} | |||
Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | ||
Line 36: | Line 37: | ||
There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ||
#'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
Line 55: | Line 55: | ||
#'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support with some doubts''': I think one of the safest ones and would cause least controversies for wiki. Option 3 assumes voting, and its unreliable. [https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 PGRU voting tier list] is an example. Averegly, {{SSBU|Palutena}} got the best result, so she's the best character in the game? And that's my biggest problem with Option 3, altrought it would be much smaller if we use Clarniet Hawk's way. Option 2 has, as stated by Toomai already, painful to aquire trustful and probably notable source and it's the worst one in my opinion. | #'''Support with some doubts''': I think one of the safest ones and would cause least controversies for wiki. Option 3 assumes voting, and its unreliable. [https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 PGRU voting tier list] is an example. Averegly, {{SSBU|Palutena}} got the best result, so she's the best character in the game? And that's my biggest problem with Option 3, altrought it would be much smaller if we use Clarniet Hawk's way. Option 2 has, as stated by Toomai already, painful to aquire trustful and probably notable source and it's the worst one in my opinion. {{unsigned|46.229.158.109|02:37, April 10, 2020 (EDT)}} | ||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just a matter of opinion, and instaed of trying to classify every single character, keeping it general is overall (maybe) more convenient(apart from exceptions like ''Brawl's'' Meta Knight and ''SSB4's'' Bayonetta). [[User:Weegeegaming|'''<span style="color: green;">Weegeegaming</span>''']]|[[User talk:Weegeegaming|'''''<span style="color: red;">talk</span>''''']] 09:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. Tier lists are just a matter of opinion, and instaed of trying to classify every single character, keeping it general is overall (maybe) more convenient(apart from exceptions like ''Brawl's'' Meta Knight and ''SSB4's'' Bayonetta). [[User:Weegeegaming|'''<span style="color: green;">Weegeegaming</span>''']]|[[User talk:Weegeegaming|'''''<span style="color: red;">talk</span>''''']] 09:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Look, I make tier lists myself and I always use my opinion on how viable a character's placement is in every spot. Tier lists are basically opinion based on how some top players make a well-desinged tier list based on their opinion. And that is why I chose hands-off. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 03:25, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Look, I make tier lists myself and I always use my opinion on how viable a character's placement is in every spot. Tier lists are basically opinion based on how some top players make a well-desinged tier list based on their opinion. And that is why I chose hands-off. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 03:25, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | ||
Line 61: | Line 61: | ||
#'''Support''' I agree with the points made in the summary earlier on this page. They are opinions and can vary over time, and between players, version updates, and even depending on how the game is played (competitive, casual, with or without items, and many other vague terms). I like that general terms like "high tier" would stay, as noting a characters many or few strengths is more objective without claiming to be precise when relative to other characters. Instead of S-F tier lists, maybe it should be "strong/neutral/weak" lists that are little more generalised, simply noting their balance of strengths and weaknesses - or maybe forego the tier concept entirely and let people compare characters themselves after reading about their qualities. [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 16:23, June 28, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' I agree with the points made in the summary earlier on this page. They are opinions and can vary over time, and between players, version updates, and even depending on how the game is played (competitive, casual, with or without items, and many other vague terms). I like that general terms like "high tier" would stay, as noting a characters many or few strengths is more objective without claiming to be precise when relative to other characters. Instead of S-F tier lists, maybe it should be "strong/neutral/weak" lists that are little more generalised, simply noting their balance of strengths and weaknesses - or maybe forego the tier concept entirely and let people compare characters themselves after reading about their qualities. [[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 16:23, June 28, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' After the release of version 8.0 in ''Ultimate'', it doesn't seem like Nintendo is planning on making any drastic gameplay changes in the future. Games like ''Melee'' and ''Smash 4'' have characters who created the metagame in their respective titles, having characters fair better than others. In ''Ultimate'', every character seems capable in any match-up, including characters who are considered to be "medium low-tier". [https://smash.gg/rankings/super-smash-bros-ultimate/series/panda-global-rankings-ultimate/fall-2019 PGRU] has proven to be arbitrary with the results conducting characters tiers and is more focused on the players tournament placement. [[User:JRaH|JRaH]] ([[User talk:JRaH|talk]]) 13:19, June 30, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' After the release of version 8.0 in ''Ultimate'', it doesn't seem like Nintendo is planning on making any drastic gameplay changes in the future. Games like ''Melee'' and ''Smash 4'' have characters who created the metagame in their respective titles, having characters fair better than others. In ''Ultimate'', every character seems capable in any match-up, including characters who are considered to be "medium low-tier". [https://smash.gg/rankings/super-smash-bros-ultimate/series/panda-global-rankings-ultimate/fall-2019 PGRU] has proven to be arbitrary with the results conducting characters tiers and is more focused on the players tournament placement. [[User:JRaH|JRaH]] ([[User talk:JRaH|talk]]) 13:19, June 30, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Given the large number of characters and continual rebalancing, any opinion-based tier list (which all of them are at the moment) is going to have significant flaws. Tier lists are increasingly a very poor measure of viability for Smash. | #'''Support''' Given the large number of characters and continual rebalancing, any opinion-based tier list (which all of them are at the moment) is going to have significant flaws. Tier lists are increasingly a very poor measure of viability for Smash. | ||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||
Line 85: | Line 71: | ||
#'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, | # '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ||
Line 94: | Line 79: | ||
#'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, | #'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
Line 115: | Line 100: | ||
#'''Support''': I believe aggregation would be the best way to go about creating a tier list in the absence of a SSBU backroom on SmashBoards. Of course, this will no doubt be an arduous task, however the main point of concern with this option, for me at least, is what sort of criteria a tier list has to follow to be considered 'trustworthy' - obviously you're more likely to find more 'trustworthy' tier lists from top level players but is that the only condition? (for example, what if there is some bias on their tier list, etc.) Regardless, I recognize this option as being perhaps the best course of action seeing that it is the least likely to cause controversy, due to it gathering opinions of course. - [[User:Tantei|Tantei]], 14:00 April 11th, 2020 (BST) | #'''Support''': I believe aggregation would be the best way to go about creating a tier list in the absence of a SSBU backroom on SmashBoards. Of course, this will no doubt be an arduous task, however the main point of concern with this option, for me at least, is what sort of criteria a tier list has to follow to be considered 'trustworthy' - obviously you're more likely to find more 'trustworthy' tier lists from top level players but is that the only condition? (for example, what if there is some bias on their tier list, etc.) Regardless, I recognize this option as being perhaps the best course of action seeing that it is the least likely to cause controversy, due to it gathering opinions of course. - [[User:Tantei|Tantei]], 14:00 April 11th, 2020 (BST) | ||
#'''Support''';Given the constantly changing attributes of characters for each update, a semi-regularly updated tier list based on trustworthy sources sounds like the most logical way to go. What we should consider as trustworthy sources should be people who have played the game a ton. '''Professional competitive players.''' Websites like '''Eventhubs''' allow anyone with a keyboard and mouse to add their opinion to the tier list, skewing the data. What we need is a '''google sheet that averages the rankings of the characters ranked by professional players.''' Echo fighters with close attributes to each other like Peach/Daisy and Simon/Richter will be ranked as one fighter, since they're pretty much the same. Mii Fighters, of course, should be unranked just like in Smash 4 due to their customizable moveset. If a professional does rank Mii Fighters, we will simply skip over them, and that will be the end of that. A few competitive players do refuse to rank certain characters, so if a competitive player does not rank a certain character, we will rank it as average. But what about the other characters? We have a formula that will account for the missing fighter. The formula will be '''r/a*m''', where '''r''' is the fighter's rank, '''a''' is the amount of fighters ranked on the player's list, and '''m''' is the maximum amount of fighters possible to rank. Let's say that Wario is ranked 6th out of 70 on a tier list, a list which only ranks 70 of the 73 possible fighters. The formula for Wario's position will be '''(6/70*73)''', making Wario's rank '''aproximately 6.26''', while the missing fighters are ranked as 36.5. These are my ideas that I'm bringing to the table, anyways. [[User:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 2px;font-size:12px;">A Little Warrior</span>]][[User talk:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 1px;font-size:12px;">Was Here</span>]] 12:10, April 14, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''';Given the constantly changing attributes of characters for each update, a semi-regularly updated tier list based on trustworthy sources sounds like the most logical way to go. What we should consider as trustworthy sources should be people who have played the game a ton. '''Professional competitive players.''' Websites like '''Eventhubs''' allow anyone with a keyboard and mouse to add their opinion to the tier list, skewing the data. What we need is a '''google sheet that averages the rankings of the characters ranked by professional players.''' Echo fighters with close attributes to each other like Peach/Daisy and Simon/Richter will be ranked as one fighter, since they're pretty much the same. Mii Fighters, of course, should be unranked just like in Smash 4 due to their customizable moveset. If a professional does rank Mii Fighters, we will simply skip over them, and that will be the end of that. A few competitive players do refuse to rank certain characters, so if a competitive player does not rank a certain character, we will rank it as average. But what about the other characters? We have a formula that will account for the missing fighter. The formula will be '''r/a*m''', where '''r''' is the fighter's rank, '''a''' is the amount of fighters ranked on the player's list, and '''m''' is the maximum amount of fighters possible to rank. Let's say that Wario is ranked 6th out of 70 on a tier list, a list which only ranks 70 of the 73 possible fighters. The formula for Wario's position will be '''(6/70*73)''', making Wario's rank '''aproximately 6.26''', while the missing fighters are ranked as 36.5. These are my ideas that I'm bringing to the table, anyways. [[User:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 2px;font-size:12px;">A Little Warrior</span>]][[User talk:Little Warrior|<span style="background:#040; color:yellow; padding:2px 1px;font-size:12px;">Was Here</span>]] 12:10, April 14, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''';I think option 3 is the best choice because option one would be a bad idea because this website still needs to have tier lists and number 2 is a bad idea too because it will too long to find a good tier list like Smash Boards. [[User:Thegameandwatch| | #'''Support''';I think option 3 is the best choice because option one would be a bad idea because this website still needs to have tier lists and number 2 is a bad idea too because it will too long to find a good tier list like Smash Boards. [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 12:58, April 14, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support'''. I think tier lists are a big part of this game and a big point of the Smash community opinion, such as documenting the shift in metagames, from Sheik's domination in Melee to Fox being thought as of the best along with Pichu in Ultimate being dropped down and the constant contention on who is in the top tier, being ZSS, Inkling, Greninja, etc. Aggregating them together isn't a choice that I fully agree, rather I think that if the a group of Smashers from the Smash Back Room release a tier list that asks the opinion of top players and the public and combines them, then I think that's the best option. But if SmashWiki is doing that too, then I don't have any problems. It also would note of how good a character is in the SmashWiki since, if the wiki is about the Smash games and not about the competitive side of it, then I think the wiki would lose a lot of detail and content. Anyways, that's my two cents. [[User:Eexey|Eexey]] ([[User talk:Eexey|talk]]) 01:24, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. I think tier lists are a big part of this game and a big point of the Smash community opinion, such as documenting the shift in metagames, from Sheik's domination in Melee to Fox being thought as of the best along with Pichu in Ultimate being dropped down and the constant contention on who is in the top tier, being ZSS, Inkling, Greninja, etc. Aggregating them together isn't a choice that I fully agree, rather I think that if the a group of Smashers from the Smash Back Room release a tier list that asks the opinion of top players and the public and combines them, then I think that's the best option. But if SmashWiki is doing that too, then I don't have any problems. It also would note of how good a character is in the SmashWiki since, if the wiki is about the Smash games and not about the competitive side of it, then I think the wiki would lose a lot of detail and content. Anyways, that's my two cents. [[User:Eexey|Eexey]] ([[User talk:Eexey|talk]]) 01:24, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support'''. I understand it will be a lot of work, but I would prefer this than having nothing at all. We are a wiki that strives to collect data as much as we possibly can. If that means we have to go through multiple sources and collate the data, so be it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 20:26, April 23, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. I understand it will be a lot of work, but I would prefer this than having nothing at all. We are a wiki that strives to collect data as much as we possibly can. If that means we have to go through multiple sources and collate the data, so be it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 20:26, April 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
Line 129: | Line 114: | ||
#'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
Line 214: | Line 188: | ||
I may be late for this, but while Option 3 seems to be a good way to keep a "neutral" tier-list on the wiki, I'm afraid finding a consensus on what exactly makes a "trustworthy" tier-list will be a nightmare. The mention "(Don't worry about the details for this vote.)" does not help at all to mitigate this fear and kinda pushes me towards Option 1 by default. If some of you could provide some examples of tier-lists and why they're considered trustworthy, that'd be appreciated. [[User:Ponyshment|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow: 1px 1px 6px purple">'''Ponyshment'''</span>]] [[File:PonyshmentSignature.png|20px|link=User_talk:Ponyshment]] 11:51, May 16, 2020 (EDT) | I may be late for this, but while Option 3 seems to be a good way to keep a "neutral" tier-list on the wiki, I'm afraid finding a consensus on what exactly makes a "trustworthy" tier-list will be a nightmare. The mention "(Don't worry about the details for this vote.)" does not help at all to mitigate this fear and kinda pushes me towards Option 1 by default. If some of you could provide some examples of tier-lists and why they're considered trustworthy, that'd be appreciated. [[User:Ponyshment|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow: 1px 1px 6px purple">'''Ponyshment'''</span>]] [[File:PonyshmentSignature.png|20px|link=User_talk:Ponyshment]] 11:51, May 16, 2020 (EDT) | ||
I really hope choose number 3 happens because number 1 isn't a good idea and number 2 will take time until smash boards makes tier lists again. [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 15:58, May 21, 2020 (EDT) | |||
After seeing how much Smashboards fell from prominence during Smash 4 and the rumblings of whether if we could keep using their tier lists or use the PGR's, I felt this day would come eventually. I certainly agree we shouldn't be giving Smashboards the same reverence as the ultimate competitive Smash authority as we had in the past, because those days were certainly over shortly into Smash 4 and it's an outdated relic now. I do agree with the sentiments that we should still cover tier designations in some way, because they are still of upmost relevance to competitive play, and as I understand, the tier list article has always been one of, if not our most visited article, so it's certainly something of heavy interest to readers. I'm torn though between Options 2 and 3; I don't think Option 3 is very practical, as besides the work involved, how do we determine the "trusted sources"? If we're using individual players, I have absolutely no confidence in it, as you got the whole mess of deciding which players to use, and just basing it on PGR'd players would be awful, as it makes the very flawed assumption that skill = knowledge and there are plenty of PGR-caliber players who simply weren't ranked because of insufficient tournament attendance. Then you also got the issue that individual player tier lists often are not even structured the same way from player to player, complicating how to aggregate them together, and if players know their tier lists are directly influencing the tier rankings used on this wiki, you could very well get players deliberately over-ranking and under-ranking characters to troll or trying to intentionally shift public opinion of a character (e.g. top tier mains downplaying their character in an effort to suppress complaints and possibly prevent their main getting nerfed). Option 3 could be viable if we had multiple acceptably credible groups making tier lists like the Smashboards tier lists of old, but we really don't, it might even be a struggle to decide just one that is "credible enough" to merit documentation on the wiki. | After seeing how much Smashboards fell from prominence during Smash 4 and the rumblings of whether if we could keep using their tier lists or use the PGR's, I felt this day would come eventually. I certainly agree we shouldn't be giving Smashboards the same reverence as the ultimate competitive Smash authority as we had in the past, because those days were certainly over shortly into Smash 4 and it's an outdated relic now. I do agree with the sentiments that we should still cover tier designations in some way, because they are still of upmost relevance to competitive play, and as I understand, the tier list article has always been one of, if not our most visited article, so it's certainly something of heavy interest to readers. I'm torn though between Options 2 and 3; I don't think Option 3 is very practical, as besides the work involved, how do we determine the "trusted sources"? If we're using individual players, I have absolutely no confidence in it, as you got the whole mess of deciding which players to use, and just basing it on PGR'd players would be awful, as it makes the very flawed assumption that skill = knowledge and there are plenty of PGR-caliber players who simply weren't ranked because of insufficient tournament attendance. Then you also got the issue that individual player tier lists often are not even structured the same way from player to player, complicating how to aggregate them together, and if players know their tier lists are directly influencing the tier rankings used on this wiki, you could very well get players deliberately over-ranking and under-ranking characters to troll or trying to intentionally shift public opinion of a character (e.g. top tier mains downplaying their character in an effort to suppress complaints and possibly prevent their main getting nerfed). Option 3 could be viable if we had multiple acceptably credible groups making tier lists like the Smashboards tier lists of old, but we really don't, it might even be a struggle to decide just one that is "credible enough" to merit documentation on the wiki. | ||
Line 222: | Line 197: | ||
:Although it may not be permanent, one option for Ultimate is to combine the aspects of Option 1 and 3 as Clarinet Hawk suggested: We aggregate reliable tier lists to an extent, however instead of giving numerical placements they are averaged into top, high, etc. Aside from extreme cases such as Brawl MK or SSB4 Bayo, there is no such thing as an objective placement for characters. Still though this is not something I see as being permanent, however in the current circumstance this would be my current stance for Ultimate, and should we find an agreeable source for tier lists then the other 2 options should be considered. As for past games' tier lists I agree to leave them as is until we find up-to-date sufficient sources to replace them (which is bound to happen with SSBM, perhaps that unofficial reddit tier list can be an option). And I didn't mention this initially but now would be a good time to, matchup charts have got to go. Those haven't been updated in forever and have fallen terribly out of date, for instance it is a common agreement now that Brawl Pikachu and Meta Knight is not an even matchup and is clearly in MK's favor. Perhaps yes keep them somewhere for historical purposes, or if when aggregating we can also manage to do a large scale aggregate effort for matchup charts from a credible group and create our own complete ones like Smashboards. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] '''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="dodgerblue">Omegα</font>]][[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="mediumseagreen">Toαd</font>]][[Special:Contributions/OmegaToad64|<font color="red">64</font>]]''' 04:44, June 9, 2020 (EDT) | :Although it may not be permanent, one option for Ultimate is to combine the aspects of Option 1 and 3 as Clarinet Hawk suggested: We aggregate reliable tier lists to an extent, however instead of giving numerical placements they are averaged into top, high, etc. Aside from extreme cases such as Brawl MK or SSB4 Bayo, there is no such thing as an objective placement for characters. Still though this is not something I see as being permanent, however in the current circumstance this would be my current stance for Ultimate, and should we find an agreeable source for tier lists then the other 2 options should be considered. As for past games' tier lists I agree to leave them as is until we find up-to-date sufficient sources to replace them (which is bound to happen with SSBM, perhaps that unofficial reddit tier list can be an option). And I didn't mention this initially but now would be a good time to, matchup charts have got to go. Those haven't been updated in forever and have fallen terribly out of date, for instance it is a common agreement now that Brawl Pikachu and Meta Knight is not an even matchup and is clearly in MK's favor. Perhaps yes keep them somewhere for historical purposes, or if when aggregating we can also manage to do a large scale aggregate effort for matchup charts from a credible group and create our own complete ones like Smashboards. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] '''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="dodgerblue">Omegα</font>]][[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="mediumseagreen">Toαd</font>]][[Special:Contributions/OmegaToad64|<font color="red">64</font>]]''' 04:44, June 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
The major reason why I'm in favor of Option 1 is that Smash Ultimate tier lists are near-universally opinion based. So they aren't actually being generated based on matchups directly, they're a vague | The major reason why I'm in favor of Option 1 is that Smash Ultimate tier lists are near-universally opinion based. So they aren't actually being generated based on matchups directly, they're a vague assess of character "quality" (whatever that means to the person voting or making it). This largely makes them a terrible measure of viability, so they don't have a lot of objective value. And because of all the subjectivity involved, they aren't actually neutrally assessed. So they directly violate wiki rules on neutrality. Opinion-based tiers lists are especially flawed when there are a large number of characters, since even an experienced pro doesn't know all the matchups for characters they're voting on. With all these issues, I don't think actual tier lists have a meaningful place on the wiki, not for Smash Ultimate at least. | ||