Editing Forum:The Tier List/Archive 1

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The official [[Tier List]] just came out. Discuss. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

:The official Most Used Characters List just came out. Discuss. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

:Fixed your post. [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

::That was rude and not really an opinion on it. Consider why they're the most used. Just take a minute to wonder at all the possibilities of the ''why'', rather than making a sarcastic remark. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Sarcasm is one of my **'''Free'''!** services! [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::::we never wanted it [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Heh heh heh. [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 02:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a serious post. I personally am surprised by how low sonic was, I thought he was going to be a lot higher. Pit to, if you just keep spamming as pit, you'll eventually win.[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 17:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

For some reason, I didn't find it very suprising to see Captain Falcon on the bottom. - [[User:Amycats2|Amycats2]] ([[User talk:Amycats2|talk]]) 17:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 
I did, the only reson hi's at the bottom is because the best guys just are good for Meta Knights type of strategy. In my opinion, the characters have different ways of winning, not different amounts of winning. Like Bowser is for close up and powerful attacks, not aerial battles, such as Meta Knight's. Captain Falcon is at the bottom because he's been used so infrequently in tournaments. I personally, cannot use Meta Knights strategy, because I prefer not to risk crashing in aerial battles. I prefer the edgeguarding tactics that captain falcon allows.[[User:Man of falcon|Man of falcon]] ([[User talk:Man of falcon|talk]]) 18:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:That's not true. You're underestimating the creative ability of professional players. Have you SEEN what they've done? At a point in which people are even tourney-worthy, most characters are stymied by G&W. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::What I meant was that each character is as good as any of the others. It's the skill of the player that determines how strong the character is. And, personally, Captain Falcon is my best character.[[User:Man of falcon|Man of falcon]] ([[User talk:Man of falcon|talk]]) 15:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, this tier list seems very much accurate, especially the low tier. There are very few things I would change, like moving the boundaries a few (Marth seems like he could easily be Top instead of High tier, Ness and Lucas could stand to be Mid tier), and possibly moving a few characters around in their tiers by a place or two. There are a few characters that I personally would rate higher (Fox, for example, I think should be High tier instead of mid, and I'm not sure about Bowser being placed so high in Mid tier), but I am not the SBR. They know a lot more about the Metagame than I do (or anyone else here does). Remember, this is a list not just of raw potential, but also of how the characters match up against the tournament scene. DK, for example, is as high as he is because he has an advantageous matchup versus both Metaknight and Snake, as well as having decent raw potential. Sheik is likely Mid instead of low due to her ability to counter some high-tier characters if played properly. And so forth. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 04:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

===pagebreak===

That list cannot be right.--[[User:Oxico|Oxico]] ([[User talk:Oxico|talk]]) 19:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Um, yeah. This list has some problems. Let's take a look, shall we?
*Snake -- No way is he number 2. Try number 19 '''at most'''. He's slow, his projectiles are not that good, and his moves are laggy with modest priority.
:Try telling that to all the pros who lost to a Snake. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::Snakes lose too. Your statement doesn't even have the virtue of the reverse being false. A large number of pros play Snake, ergo, you have a large number of tournament victories with Snake. That doesn't say anything about Snake's value as a character, it says everything about the number of people who play Snake. Brawl is a very young game. The sample size is far too small. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Do you know why a large number of pros play snake competitively? Because he is a great character that allows the pros to win more. Pros are obviously going to pick the char that brings out the maximum chance of success. Granted, there might be a tier list upset like Bum's DK or a technique that revolutionizes a character's game, but until that happens, snake is top tier. With everybody else coming way later.
::::Snake's up top because of his tilts. They're like smash attacks, except faster and slightly weaker. He can control the stage using his bombs and nades. He's also one of the heaviest characters.
*DDD -- He's number 3 because of his chain grabs. That's a stupid reason, only partly because nobody wants to see some guy just chaingrab his way through a slew of mediocre Sonics for an entire tournament. Retarded.
:Many other characters as well. Also, minions FTW. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::A silly person once said 'Not an argument.' [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
*ROB -- I still don't see why people think ROB is good. He's bad people, he's really very bad. If someone takes issue with this point, we ought to go somewhere else because I swear I can write pages about how bad ROB is.
:Not an argument. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::No, but I said I '''had''' an argument if someone wanted to hear it. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Have you ever played against a good ROB? He's heavy, not that slow, has a very long-ranged ftilt, has an incredible recovery that you can attack out of, and he can WOP you and return to the stage more efficiently than Jiggly.
*Wario -- His moves are so laggy, he doesn't hit hard, he falls way too fast, he's even somewhat light. WTF is Wario doing so high?
:He wins. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::For now. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 14:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:::He doesn't fall THAT fast. Fast falling is actually good, it prevents others from juggling you. If you know how to use Wario, he can be pretty darn good.{{SUBST:Nosubst|Template:Signatures/Tienjt0}} 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
*Lucario -- He's slow, laggy, and his damage dealt and priority are dependent on his '''own''' damage percentage. Bad idea? Methinks so.
:Azen. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::What? [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 14:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Hahaha, anyway... Lucario has some quick moves, along with combo ability and powerful kill moves that have amazing range. Lucario is not only good if he's damaged, it's just that he's designed to get better as he gets closer to death, making him good for combacks [[User:ZaxYo|ZaxYo]] 22:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
*Donkey Kong -- Don't even know what to say about this one (I'm so flabbergasted), except that Donkey has always sucked. Always. You don't mess with that kind of tradition.
:DK got like 60 times faster and has an insanely high priority quick aerial.
*Zelda -- She's all power without the lag, so where's the love? Her priority is extremely high, too. Her only problems are her relative weight and speed, but she doesn't deserve so far as 20th.

The rest is fine, I guess. I also think it's a bit irresponsible to release a tier list so early. I mean, when the game first came out it was fun to speculate but the BR is '''serious''' which is what's scary to me. It takes '''years''' to make an accurate tier list, and they may just have f-ed up the metagame of other characters for an awful long time by making everyone focus on their top six or seven. That's okay for me, I guess, because I have no problem newbbashing Snakes, ROBs and DDDs all day. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 20:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

: Well Donkey Kong has horrible matchups against the others except for ironically the higher cast. For example he does pretty well against Mr Game and Watch plus he's the only matchup against meta knights thats not neutral or in meta knights favor - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

guys, people were nagging the SBR to make one, so they had to hurrily finish it up. a new one will come out in a year. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you mostly except about R.O.B. I can write pages on how GOOD he is. I use him and can do very well, almost as good as Meta Knight. I was also expecting the Space Animals to be higher...ALOT HIGHER. I also think CF should NOT BE ON THE BOTTOM. He is fast and damages well. I can write alot more but I will hold off for now.--[[User:Oxico|Oxico]] ([[User talk:Oxico|talk]]) 21:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:Perhaps then we should Brawl. I'm on C-Hawk's Wii. Are you available? [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 21:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
::That was fast. I agree with it; Meta Knight and Snake are definitely top tier.--[[User:Richard1990|Richard]] 21:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:CF has low priority on, like, everything. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Remember that 50% is tournament listings and the other 50% is Matchups...R.O.B and DDD have good matchups but what surprises me is Meta Knight. They say he has an advantage over Marth. WRONG! Marth overmatches Meta knight in range(a big part of his advantage) and aerial game( Fair and Uair anyone?) Plus Meta knight players say his dair is incredible but Marth's is a much better and reliable killer. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

i dunno i think snake sould be in top tier cuz hes 3rd heavyest in the game and his attacks are fast and powerful[[Special:Contributions/72.197.66.113|72.197.66.113]] 04:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Marth gets killed by MK. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 22:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
:I'd call it neutral at best - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

How the hell is it even possible to come up with a tier list in Brawl when the game hasn't even been out for a year? Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited? Well whatever, I happen to be one of those who doesn't give a damn about "tiers". I mean come on, Sonic a low tier? He's like of the cheapest characters in Brawl. Brawl Tier list are fail. [[User:Magiciandude|Magiciandude]] ([[User talk:Magiciandude|talk]]) 00:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:"Or if the physics of the game hasn't been exploited?" You seriously believe this? Also, Melee's list wasn't that late in its onset, either, and your not caring about tiers takes away your right to criticize them. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This list is a little weird.  The only reason snake and meta knight are in those positions is because they are very easy to use, and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments.  Snake has no business in top tier because he is too slow.  Wolf is way better than that.  He can take advantage of projectile spammers.  He is also capable of destrying many character's ground game with his reflector.  Wolf is in general very fast.  Jigglypuff isn't that bad.  Jigglypuff can [[wall of pain]] opponents with few troubles.  Jigglypuff can also combo most characters very well with its attacks.  It is also nearly impossible to [[chain throw]].[[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 01:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

:"and they are the characters that are seen way more than others in tournaments." - reread [[tier list]] please. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

::I know how the tier list is made if that is what you mean.  I said that because that is actually what I see and hear.  I am sorry if I caused confusion. [[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 02:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

*Even if there are a ton of Snakes, the fact that Snake dominated tournament finals so well suggests that he's way higher than 19th.

*It was a non-argument to counter a non-argument. DDD's #3 only because of chain grabs? Not only does it work on many characters, but many characters also have chain grabs, so that can't be the only reason. I also gave two reasons more than you did. Now it's three, and with the disjointed hitbox, it's four.

*Sorry, lol. But ROB is very good in tournaments. It just seemed like you were going by personal experience, you know? And theory isn't everything.

*Nothing I have to say about Wario, lol.

*The main reason for Lucario's placement (AFAIK) is Azen. He brought out a lot of what's good in Lucario. And the damage thing is GOOD because low-% kills rarely happen.

*Hatake91 already handled DK, lol. -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 14:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

:*No, it means nothing (yet). He is dominating tournament finals because (a) he's arguably the most played character (b) the game is young [i.e. metagames are not developed] and (c) some of the best players play Snake. Player skill>tier placement.
:*Well, if there are other reasons DDD belongs up top aside from his large number and widely applicable chain grabs, please, tell me. I'm dying to know.
:*It does seem like I'm going from personal experience, largely because I am. But, then again, aren't tiers decided by personal experience? Tiers are empirically decided. Without hard evidence, facts, or statistics (there are some of these, but they are entirely relative) the only way to decide things of this sort is through empirical verification. The fact that I have decided these things in this manner in no way disqualifies my opinions.
::Yeah, but these players can probably play your main and still beat you. The point is, they know what they are talking about with either experience or research. There are some hidden factors, but until a player can change theorycraft and smack to reality, its more than likely that they are right.
:*You can't make a tier judgment based on a single player. He may have developed the metagame, but if he's the only one who can employ it, that's largely a player skill thing, and not a tier thing. And maybe I misunderstood you, but are you suggesting that Lucario is better because he rarely kills people at low damage percentages? I can't imagine that's what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.
:*I don't think you can place a character based on his matchups with (at this point) merely postulated tiers. His placement is silly. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 17:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::You do have a very good point, it is way too early for a tier list in brawl. But the tier crazed fans were demanding it like crazy. Maybe the Smashwiki should develop it owns tier list? - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 23:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Dude, just because Snake's slow doesn't mean he sucks. Snake isn't that slow anyway. His tilts are wicked, almost equal in power to Smash attacks, and much faster. His uptilt has huge range, and so does his ftilt. Snake can also combat projectile spammers like Falco because of his crouch and ability to crawl. And trust me, Jigglypuff is no match for Snake. {{SUBST:Nosubst|Template:Signatures/Tienjt0}} 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
* Link is NOT the second to worst character. His only flaws are semi-poor recovery and he's a little on the slow sides. But anyone with decent smash experience can make him better than all other characters combined. He has a perfect mix on long range and melee attacks, both very strong, and he comes loaded with perks like his double side smash. Also, players that know how to time things can trap enemies in web of combos. And his final smash is much more powerful than some other wimpy characters i've seen (cough cough ''Meta Knight'' cough cough). And besides the terrible placement of Link, I see some other major flaws, like Sonic. Again, anyone who knows how to use Sonic can get damage on characters every other second while avoiding major damage to himself. Sonic has amazing recovery and is the master of areal combat. - Swordsmanr Sep. 6th
*I hate to break it to you, but your "flaws" are a lot more serious than you think. Link has, by far, the worst recovery in the game. He often dies just form being knocked off the stage. When edgeguarded or edgehogged, it's almost guaranteed. And being a little on the slow side is bad. He really lacks quick moves, except for his zair, nair, bair, and jab, none of which pack a real punch. His projectile game is decent, but just having a projectile game doesn't cut it. It is difficult to get a kill with Link, due to the fact that any move with knockback has considerable uptime and downtime lag.
And as for Sonic, Sonic is crap. He is hardly the "master of aerial combat", as his jump speed, air speed, and aerial attacks are all fairly slow. And his ground game is as bad as falcon's. Except worse, because nothing really kills. And his "Amazing" recovery can't sweetspot the edge, leading to numerous spiking and edgeguarding opportinities for his opponents. Face it people; the SBR knows more than you and your limited experience. Unless you just so happen to be a top tournament player, your personal experiecne with a character doesn't have much bearing. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 21:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

It's wierd I dont really like this tier list at all... Its annoying and Meta Knight should just be banned forever. It's crazy how only a low tier character as Yoshi has 50/50 against him. Sure DK got it too but really. Meta is really annoying. It's too much power in one character. If anything this list has become very bias. SBR needs to fix this, and Nintendo needs to think more about killing a character (Captain falcon and Fox) I mean come on?! CF from 6 to last?! And Fox?! from 1st to 19th?! That's crazy...[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 16:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

== No, no, no, NO!!! ==

JIGGLY, NESS, AND SONIC ARE NOT LOW TIER! [[User:ParaGoomba348|<font color="Green">Para</font><font color="Blue">Goomba</font><font color="Red">348</font>]] ([[User talk:ParaGoomba348|<font color="Orange">C'mon, just talk to me</font>]]) 01:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:Reasoning? -[[User:Capefeather|capefeather]] ([[User talk:Capefeather|talk]]) 03:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::<!-- Thank goodness someone didn't use the word "Jiggs" for Jigglypuff for once...~~~~ -->

For one, Jiggly is among some strong characters, a small target, low crouch, is good at comboing, hard to combo, rest has flower affect AND high knockback, can make opponents fall asleep, and has the 2nd fastest air speed and slowest falling speed in the game, making her the best at recoveries in the game.  Ness has strong aerials, PK Fire can edgeguard well, he can absorb projectiles, PK Flash is powerful, he is a small target, has a [relatively] low crouch, and has a meteor smash.  Sonic has the fastest running speed in the game, a great comboer, up and b is really high, can use all his moves in recovery, and he is a [relatively] small target.  There you have it.  They should be higher. [[User:ParaGoomba348|<font color="Green">Para</font><font color="Blue">Goomba</font><font color="Red">348</font>]] ([[User talk:ParaGoomba348|<font color="Orange">C'mon, just talk to me</font>]]) 16:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
::Why is Yoshi So low?????? He has the best Final Smash and he is so much better than snake and meta knight. Pikachu is also too low. His final smash kicks butt!!
:::I hate to break it to you, but Final Smashes mean absolutely zip in terms of tiers.  And Yoshi sucks.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 23:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
: See, complaints like these are the reasons why I don't give a bullfuck about tiers. "Tiers are for queers". [[User:Magiciandude|Magiciandude]] ([[User talk:Magiciandude|talk]]) 18:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The thing about tiers is that all those pro players chose snake before the tier list was
made.  They didn't choose him because he was top tier, they chose him because he's a cool new character with a cool new play style.  I'm still gonna use Link, Bowser and Samus even though they didn't do so well with the tiers.  Pro players could probably still beat me even if I  used meta knight and they used jigglypuff.  Players who switch their main to snake and meta night because they ended up on top of the tier list are nothing but tools.  The game is about Fun after all that's what nintendo was trying to do with this game.[[User:Super G 500|Super G 500]] ([[User talk:Super G 500|talk]]) 23:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Jiggly shoulld be HIGHER!!! He can do the wall of pain and he can use rising pound.[[User:Y46264Y|Y46264Y]] ([[User talk:Y46264Y|talk]]) 23:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I think MK has probably replaced Jiggly as the Wall of Pain character of choice. Better reach (sword FTW) and ''almost'' as good recovery (jumps + glide x2) just make him a better choice in most cases.[[User:Entrea Sumatae|<span style="color:#4682b4">'''–Entrea Sumatae'''</span>]] 23:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
:That being said, thoguh, I bet the tier list will probably change a lot once the world gets tired with the new characters and starts using the old ones equally. This probably includes Jigglypuff's very good air game. And that last post of mine was more than a little biased: I just plain think Meta Knight is cool, and haven't played Jiggly much.[[User:Entrea Sumatae|<span style="color:#4682b4">'''–Entrea Sumatae'''</span>]] 00:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

::I personally don't think that any character in brawl can replace Jigglypuff.  Jigglypuff's wall of pain (in my opinion at least) is better Than MK's  because a) Jigglypuff has better air speed b) jigglypuff's aerials produces a more desireable knockback and c) Jigglypuff has better recovery.  I'm saying  this because I main Jigglypuff.  Jigglypuff has arguably the best air game in brawl. [[User:Y462|Y462]] ([[User talk:Y462|talk]]) 00:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


::"Wall of Pain", "Fence of pain"...
::...Plumbing system of pain! Front lawn of pain! '''CEILING FAN OF PAIN!!'''[[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 00:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

===Cheez's ten cents===

I mained Jigglypuff in melee, and I gotta say, no hit-stun in brawl really hurt her/him (I don't know).  Anyway, I really hate this tier list!
* Marth is too low.  There is no way ROB (as awesome as he is) and Dedede are higher than he is.
* Luigi below Bowser?!?  What were they thinking?  One of the best aerial users in the game against one of the biggest targets in the game?
* Toon Link, Olimar, and Zelda were my biggest surprises.  All three have amazing movesets.  Yes, Olimar uses tether recovery, Zelda is kinda cheap, and Toon Link has horrid tourney results, but none of them     are below Wolf (have you tried to recover with him consistently?)
* Lucas below Sheik is a crime.  Especially because their reasoning is probably "Marth can chaingrab him."
You guys can say what you want, but this list was rushed.  Next time, I hope they think more about it before giving in to pressure.   [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])


:Congratz on actually making some valid points. The only one I can refute is Marth. The fact that ROB has a projectile game and amazing recovery really helps him. Marth just isn't the beast he is melee, and his lack of a long range game is more of a hindrance than ever.
::Yeah unlike a lot of people, you actually put reasoning behind your' statements. I couldn't agree more about your' point about Lucas. But yes... I think alot of this lsit is based purely on match and tourney results.

:I'm going to refute "Luigi below Bowser" by again simply linking [[tier list]]. This is not about 1v1 in each and every specific case. This is about the characters' '''overall''' performance in tournaments and the state of their metagame. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 19:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
::If I read correct, the list was 50% tourney results and 50% matchups.  According to my math (may be outdated), Marth should still be ahead of ROB, but not Dedede.  That may also explain Toon Link and Lucas's placements.  I forgot that this list (like mine) is more based on numbers than opinion, as it should be.  With Luigi and Bowser though, I still don't see why.  Bowser's best tactic is the [[Bowsercide]] (debatable), and Luigi can combo like Ken (who is gonna be on Survivor! WOOT!).  I've never played against, or seen, a decent Bowser user in action, and I main Luigi, so there is some bias there.  I still stand by what I said: the list was rushed, and, as a result, the list looks it.  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])
:::Well Cheezperson... One of my friends mains Bowser in Melee and Brawl and in my opinion he was pretty decent with him. And, from what I've seen in matches and tournies, Bowser has advantages against many of the Top and High tiered characters which is why I think both Luigi and Bowser should at LEAST be in Middle Tier.

*I agree that Marth should probably be high, but I disagree that he is higher than these characters. Dedede has one of the best grab-games in the entire game, due to range, power, and chaingrabbing on most of the cast, as well as a massively advantageous weight and a decent projectile. Rob has an all-around good moveset that can outspace even Marth, in addition to a godly recovery and a good projectile game.
*Bowser beats out luigi not because bowser beats luigi but because his results/matchups are better. Luigi has a huge disadvantage against any character with a long-ranged, disjointed htibox, which is most of the top tier.
*TL, Lucas, Zelda, and Olimar are all characters that on the surface look like they have a lot of potential. But as the game becomes more advanced, projectile spamming gets worse. For example, it is rare that a high level player actually gets hit by Zelda's Side B, which was one of her main draws as a character intially. Additionally, each of these characters has a slower-than-normal grab, which is a disadvantage in this defensive game.
*As for Lucas<Sheik, the projectile and grab things hold true, as well as a couple of other things against him: none of his aerials can kill at a reasonable percentage, nor can any of his tilts or specials. Really, his only kill options are his smashes, which are fairly predictable and thus avoidable. You basically have to screw up to die to lucas at under 150% --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 04:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
::I don't know how many people know this, but the list is based entirely on numbers, no opinion (or so ''they''said...).  Anyway, since I'm already on a roll defending Luigi, do you see Bowser beating any character from the top, or even high, tier?  Luigi just has a better, more technical game.  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])
*Actually yes, I do see Bowser beating characters from the top/high tier (or at least doing better than Luigi), for the same reasons DK is in the High tier. Massive weight, huge range, huge killing power, it means he stands a chance against characters with large range and disjointed hitboxes, while Luigi basically just gets skewered. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 20:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

==  WTF is this S*%#?!?! ==

Tool link lost to DDD and wario?????????BULLSHIT. Captain falcon is LAST?!?!BULLSHIT!!!! HOW is Ike so low??? He has INSANE power! He kills at like 30%, and has 2 super armor moves!

Ike sucks, that's all I have to say.

Is that all? DDD and Wario are much better than that. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with this list almost entirely. Pikachu, Lucas and Captain Falcon are my best characters and they are all lower tiers, Captain Falcon apparently being the worst character. Tiers are jokes, honestly. [[User:Dexington|Dexington]] ([[User talk:Dexington|talk]]) 23:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
:I agree, to best describe this I shall use a Jack Sparrow quote,"Gentlemen I wash my hands of this whole weirdness."[[User:Man of falcon|Man of falcon]] ([[User talk:Man of falcon|talk]]) 00:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No one in there right minds would use a lot of the Upper Tier characters. I've always been one who didn't pay attention to Tier Lists, but the only upper tier character I have seen anyone use was Snake. The rest used lower tier characters. I use Power Suit and Zero Suit regularly and I can take out any of the upper tier characters. This is a game where you should depend on your character's skills, and not what character everyone else says is good to use. [[User:Tim Nemec]]

You guys don't read do you? For one dexington yes those are '''your''' best. The Tier list post says clearly the list is not for determining who your best with, thats why not everyone is only using metaknight, because they are using characters that fit themselves best. And Timnemec everyone's taste is different besides more people use Metaknight than samus or Zero suit you just haven't seen them I guess. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 00:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur, the tier List is completely meaningless and does nothing to describe the potential for each character. [[User:Man of falcon|Man of falcon]] ([[User talk:Man of falcon|talk]]) 21:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
==  Captain Falcon in a right placement... ==

Sorry, fanboys, but I had to say this:
Captain Falcon DOESN'T WIN A SINGLE TOURNAMENT ANYMORE, DEAL WITH IT --[[User:Jigglypuff is God|Jigglypuff is God]] ([[User talk:Jigglypuff is God|talk]]) 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
:He's awesome with any game with three or more people. Oh wait, tournaments. Bwahahahaha! [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 04:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Captain falcon may not win many tourneys anymore but he sure as hell should be higher on the list than link, ganon, bowser, and jigglypuff.
::I sure don't see why he should be higher than Ganon. His only decent arial is his forward knee and most of his decent power ground attacks can be countered by nearly any other character despite them being vastly slower (read: Ike's forward tilt counters Falcon's reapeating forward punch hit for hit).  [[User:Dritz D27|Dritz D27]]
Lol He actually has won the most tournaments out of the entire low tier( he won 1...more than the others :P) but that was it while the others ahead of him were in the top 3 multiple times  but never won a single one - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
:Well, I can see that he belongs in the bottom teir, but right now, the list is so debatable, he can easily be moved up.  He does have some decently fast attacks, though.  If the list was based on opinion, he could be (could, not will...) moved to mid or high.  Even then, some of the casual players, even the good casual players, overuse the cliche'd Side-B -> Up-B combo.  That alone might move him down.[[User:WiiMaster|WiiMaster]] ([[User talk:WiiMaster|talk]]) 21:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

== All About Luigi ==

After skimming over the majority of this page, I've decided to make a subsection where we can talk about why Luigi needs to be bumbed up. I'm a believer that if you nag about it enough, someone has to listen. Here's some bullets, feel free to add some of your own. [[User:ZaxYo|ZaxYo]]  22:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)<br>
-Luigi's aerial game is fast, powerful, and perfect for comboing and edge guarding.<br>
-Luigi's low traction makes him great for spamming a sliding smash attack as opposed to his pretty bad running attack.<br>
-Luigi's '''fire punch''', should not be overlooked as his best killing move, killing as low as 50%. Also noting that the neutral attack can lead into a fire punch with almost no DIing possibilities that i have found.<br>
-Luigi's down smash and side smash have impressive range and both come out very quickly, his down smash also occasionally hooks people back t words Luigi for comboing. <br>
-Luigi's up-b, down-b, and side-b all give him a variety of recovery methods which makes him unpredictable, as well as gets him a lot of distance.<br>
-Luigi's [[Luigi cyclone]] (down-B) combos perfectly into his aerials.  It also has good range on it, and fairly low ending lag, meaning that you can start a combo from a distance (don't see Bowser doing that).

-Believe it or not, Luigi's Dair can spike, but only when the opponent is just above his knee.
-Luigi's front-Smash can KO as early as around 70%, even heavies!  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])

Luigi also has a lot of disadvantages, which should put him about where he is on the tier list.
-Luigi's air speed is one of the worst in the game, meaning even though his aerials are good, you can't really ues them as an approach or you just eat a tilt/smash before you get to them.
-Luigi's low traction makes approaching on the ground a poor choice, as again you will mostly just eat a tilt/smash before you reach them. His "slidiness" is a distinct disadvantage, as no action can be taken in sliding frames.
-Luigi's firepunch is good if it hits, but if it misses, there is huge lag. If they shield or sidestep, you're eating whatever their strongest move is, which will likely kill.
-Luigi's smashes are neither exceptionally quick nor exceptionally long-ranged. Particularly, his Fsmash is slow enough to be shielded/dodged/whatevered nearly every single time, and his downsmash is short-ranged enough to be difficult to land (boo no wavedash-downsmash approach).
-Luigi's cyclone, like every single one of his approach options, can just be hit with a powerful smash or tilt, making it an ineffective approach.
-Lots of dairs can spike. His is one of the most difficult to do so with.
-Fsmash is hard to hit due to it not being that quick.
::A good Luigi user wouldn't use aerials as approaches.  Don't forget that he does have a projectile, which definitely boosts his approaching ability, but Luigi's the kind of character that waits for the opponent to approach.  You were right, unfortunately, in saying that Luigi isn't a great approacher, but the cyclone is still a decent option.  The low traction can actually be used in your favor, if you use a running Up-Smash, which, in my opinion, is one of the quickest smashes in the game.  Like most smashes, the front-Smash takes setting up.  It's a fact of the game, you have to wait for the right opportunity to KO someone.  It just takes a good defense (rolling and dodging around until the opponent messes up).  The one thing you really got me on is the spike.  I've only done it once (MetaKnight on Final Destination if anyone is curious), and I have video proof of it, for all you skeptics out there!  [[User:Cheezperson|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="aquamarine">Cheezperson</font>]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|speak to the big cheez]])
*"Projectile Until they approach" is a strategy that's stopped working for characters with GOOD projectiles, such as Zelda, Wolf, and Pit. Luigi, conversely, has one of the absolute worst projectiles in the game (slow, low damage, pitiful range, no knockback, will clank against most character's ftilts). I'm not really arguing that Luigi lacks kill options; Nair, Dair (even non-spike), Fsmash, and Firepunch are all legitimate kill options depending on situation and opponent. What Luigi majorly lacks is a way to approach ANYONE with any sort of disjointed hitbox or even good range without simply eating whatever quick attack they choose to use. (Oh, and the comment you were replying to was by me, I just screwed up and forgot the tag). --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 18:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
*The key to approaching with Luigi, and in fact most characters with bad approaching games, is to use your shield and sidestep until you're in striking distance. Again, Luigi's lack of traction comes in handy here, as it means you can set up for an up or down smash from usually out of tilt range. For enemies with a longer reach (i.e. guys with swords) you might have to play some fireball mind-games when you get close. And once you get the first strong hit in, Luigi can basically pummel to his heart's content. -[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]

== All About Ness ==
Following in the footsteps of [[User:ZaxYo|ZaxYo]], I would like to discuss why Ness deserves to be bumped higher on this list.  Same format, here’s some points, feel free to add more.[[User:Reaper Fan|Reaper Fan]] ([[User talk:Reaper Fan|talk]]) 01:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

*Ness has one of the most versatile projectile games in Brawl, having projectile attacks that can easily KO, edgeguard, and disrupt and stall opponents while also making them vulnerable to attack. 
:To elaborate, Ness's PK Thunder attack can easily disrupt a distant midair opponent with amazing amounts of control. His air born PK fire if landed can be used to set up Piller Spiking. And his PK Flash if timed correctly can '''easily''' KO a recovering opponent while being vulnerable on a predictable path.<br>
*Ness’s fair is great for disrupting opponent’s approaches (can even give Meta Knights fair a challenge to get past), and can be comboed out of, allowing for quick aerial-to-ground tactics. <br>
*Because Ness’s down-smash has the unusual property of going behind him first, you can catch sidesteppers who are used to quick, forward down-smashes off guard almost all of the time. <br>
*Because of PK Thunder2, it is incredibly difficult to edgeguard Ness, and those who do will often find themselves flying. <br>
*Has one of the most powerful back-throws in the game, able to KO most characters from the middle of final destination as low as the 100% range. <br>
*Can gain back health with proper prediction of opponent’s use of projectiles (it’s always nice to get back a free 30% from Samus’s Charge Shot). <br>
*Has one of the most powerful spikes in the game with his dair, able to spike most opponents beyond recovery distance as low as 30%. <br>
*Ness’s forward-smash has incredible knockback, and due to the fact that it can reflect projectiles, can stop opponents from hitting him from far away as he charges the attack. <br>
I hate to butt in on this (just post above mine if you wish to add to the list), but I had to repeat what I said about Lucas.  The only reason that he and Ness are so low is because a few characters can chaingrab them, and only one is widely used (Marth), and he has no projectile, giving the Ness/Lucas user a small advantage.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 03:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
:I'll respond to each of those points.  First, Ness's projectile game is nowhere near as good as you claim.  PK Thunder can sometimes disrupt recovery, but more often than not, it actually helps the opponent as it gives them their third jump back and some extra hight.  His PK Fire does have its good points, but its range is too minimal to really consider.  PK Flash is almost useless is fast paced games.  A simple edge sweet spot is all that is needed to avoid it, and it can easily be dodged.  As for his forward air, fine it disrupts opponents approaches, but then what does Ness do?  Your argument about the back smash is based on the theory that your opponent doesn't know the properties of it.  This, at the highest level of play, will never be the case.  Top players know exactly what, when, how, and where every attack hits.  You will not catch them falling for the fact that Ness's down smash is slightly different than other opponents.  PK Thunder 2?  Again, all that is needed is a ledge sweet spot edgehog.  And even in the senario you describe, all it prevents is edgehogging, not edgeguarding.  Ness's low air speed and slow jump time make him a prime target for edgeguarding.  Even with the PK Thunder, he requires a set up time that give the opponent a good number of opportunities to edgeguard Ness.  Back throw?  Fine he has a killing move.  So does every other character in the game.  Gaining health?  No good player is going to let you gain enough for it to be significant.  Sure it deters just a spam of lasers across the stage, but that can be dodged by every character as well.  As for Ness's spike, killing at under 30% is not that uncommon for a spike.  Unfortunately, Ness's low air speed makes the spike pretty predictable and easy to dodge.  And give me a break about his forward smash.  Most forward smashes have good knockback, so that's nothing big.  There's also no use for the fact that you can reflect projectiles from far away.  Why in the world would you be charging his forward smash when your opponent is on the other side of the stage?  More importantly, why would your opponent be stupid enough to shoot at him while he's charging?  All the opponent would have to do is wait for the charge time to expire and hit Ness during the cool down time.  Most of the points that you give are either not at all unique to Ness or require your opponent to be bad.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
::The only thing I can refute is what you said about PK Flash.  I just played Reaper about an hour ago, and PK Flash is definitely useful.  Only for edgeguarding, sure, but trust me, it works.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 05:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
:::In which case you've conceded the argument.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 16:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
::::What?  Oh, no, I just made that point.  I didn't add any of the other information about Ness.  I actually dislike him.    [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 00:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
All About Ness's Weaknesses:
*One of the shortest standing grab-ranges in the game makes it such that most charaters can pressure his shield without fear of retribution. Despite having a good killing throw, his grab range makes it very hard to grab unless they mis-space or you land a PK Fire. And even then, good DI will get you hit before you can reach them.
*Aside from his infinite grab-release opponents, Ness's released-from-grab animation has many frames of vulnerability, allowing other characters to take advantage of it to start combos or land finishers. Sheik, for example, can grab-release to Ftilt (to Ftilt-Lock combo, to finisher even).
*His specials all have a very large amount of lag to them, and some problems that make them difficult to use. PK Fire can only be used effectively on the ground, due to its downward diagonal trajectory in the air, making it impossible to do things like B-stick bouncing, which is what makes Lucas's Pk Fire so good. PK thunder is easily avoided by an opponent on or over the stage, it does not last long enough for serious offstage use (or hitting someone into you with the tail for PKT2), and if it hits an offstage enemy, it usually knocks them towards the stage. PK Flash is slow and predictable, and only works effectively against a select few recoveries. Psi Magnet is slow to come out, making it difficult to use to absorb most projectiles, and due to its laggyness, it leaves you vulnerable to melee attack afterwards.
*His Smashes are all very slow, and his Up and Down Smashes are very limited in their usage. This, combined with short-ranged tilts and a low grab range gives Ness a poor ground game, consisting pretty much only of Dash Attacks and Uptilts.
*His recovery is easily interrupted by most attacks and projectiles, or even just jumping off the stage into the Thunder before it hits him. It can also be difficult to Aim, leading to SDs or popping above the ledge vulnerable on many stages.
*His kill options are limited. Up Air can kill high up at higher percentages, but this is easily airdodged. Down air can spike, but has tough timing. Back throw is a good kill, but is limited by the low grab range. Fsmash is too slow. This leaves pretty much just the Bair, which limits its use as an attack move.
[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 20:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Ness has incredible combo potential, excels at edge-guarding, and is fairly fast (a good deal faster than Lucas). However he suffers in 1v1 as it's too easy to gimp his recovery and his projectiles aren't particularly good for harassing. His F-smash is notably slower than either SSB or SSBM, and the knockback on his Up and Down smash is fairly hard to kill with. His air game is again hampered by the ease of disrupting PK Thunder recovery and the fact that most of his air height will come with using his second jump, meaning if you get hit off the stage first you're likely a goner. If anything, he deserves to be lower. (Though he is much better in casual play) -[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]] ([[User talk:RogueMastermind|talk]])

In short, Ness deserves to be at least #5.

== This is why I don't prefer tiers ==

It starts a whole arguement. A lot of users have their own tiers. Just because your good with one character doesn't mean everybody is. And before somebody goes psycho on me and starts swearing uncontrollably at me because i have a tier on my user page, I would like to say that I don't care about tiers, I just made one for fun. YOu'll see that I basicly put who I play as in high tiers while every character I don't care about doesn't even have a proper place on my tier. Why do people get so intense when it comes to tiers, the SBR is just calculating their abilities and their tournemant results. If you're extremely good with a character, then you can win with them, just because they're low tier doesn't mean that that character is completely unplayable in tournemants. If you have enough skill with a character, you can win, it doesn't matter what tier they are. And before you start flaming me because I state in my user page that i don't go to tournemants, I apoligize for not knowing the exact properties of a tournament, I'm just stating my opinion, which is what forums are for.Oh, and I can't spell tournemant/tournament/whatever.[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 22:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
:This list is just showing who is best on a simple, flat stage with no items and against only one person. Meta Knight doesn't work off of distraction in 3 player games, he '''IS''' the distraction. It's hard to edgeguard more than one person at a time. Besides, this is just an "overused character in tournaments" list. If everyone using the same character, '''of course''' that character will win. Besides, the only thing that matters is skill and mastery. Meta Knight and Snake are one of the easiest characters to master. And come on people. This is just a party game...Why aren't there Mario Party tournaments? [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 22:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
::kind of what i was getting at...[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 23:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
:::tl;dr [[User:Cafinator|Cafinator]] ([[User talk:Cafinator|talk]]) 23:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

:Another good note: the game itself is not balanced around the same rules used in tournaments. Instead, it takes into account games with items, final smashes, stages other than the ones that are tournament legal (especially Final Destination), and up to 3 other opponents. I can guarantee that the tier list would look quite a bit different if it was just a random Brawl/Melee stage, 4 player FFA, with all items on at a medium rate of appearance. [[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]
::I always wondered, why is Final Destination considered a "fair" stage, it's perfect for camping, sometimes difficult to recover. And more often than not, people die because put into situations from which they can't recover.
::I agree with the Mastermind, and I actually hate the way that tournaments are played. Is it fun to take out everything that the game is supposed to be about? Stages, items, especially final smashes, which this game seems to be based around, are the things that make Brawl what it is. Taking them away ruins the way it should be played. [[User:Dexington|Dexington]] ([[User talk:Dexington|talk]]) 19:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
:::[http://asoboo.com/images/full/54247.jpg (Ahem...)] '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 20:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

*Honestly, if this is the way you feel, ignore the tier list entirely. The tier list is DESIGNED to rank the characters in Unbiased (Tournament) play, not only by their potential but also by their strength against the current Metagame. Yes, the tier list would look a LOT different in Items/AllStages/4-for-All games. It would look like this: 1) Everybody. Because in that kind of game, who you play and even how well you play largely take a backseat to things like Random Item Spawn Screwage, Random Stage Spawn Screwage, Several Players Ganging Up on You Screwage, or Repeatedly Being Prevented from Comboing/Edgeguarding/Actually-Fighting-in-a-Balanced-Way By the Guy Who Keeps Vulturing You Screwage. You know, things that have 0 to do with how good you are or who you are playing as or against.
TL;DR: There are two kinds of Brawl - Party Brawl, with 4 player FFA, All Stages, and Items, and Tournament Brawl. If you don't play Tournament Brawl, this list is meaningless to you, so you are meaningless to the list. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 01:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, game rules/preferences aside, my point is that of course the tier list isn't going to reflect everything; it reflects overall strength of all characters based on certain rules. The game isn't balanced around that set of rules that the tournament players prefer, ergo it won't reflect a balanced state. In a casual environment, which is closer to what the game is balanced around, you'll notice quickly that the players and their moves are more important than the characters they happen to be playing. I.E., skill overtakes match ups. That's the reason I don't agree with having just one tier list and judging everything around it.

::This is not to say that every character is balanced, I'm certain we all know some characters just aren't as good as others. But perhaps creating seperate tier list(s) with a different set of game rules deserves consideration. Even something as innocuous as going from the same game rules and adding another player to each side (i.e., tournament doubles) would have a drastically different tier list. And of course there would be another very different one for the standard 4p FFA with all items on any random Brawl/Melee stage too. [[User talk:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]

*As I said, this tier list only applies to tournament rules. A Tournament doubles Tier list is possible, but odds are it'd be far too much work: every two-character team would have to be weighed versus every other two-member team. That'd be 1296 possible tier placements, and each one would require 1295 comparisions, for a total of over a Million matchups to consider. And as I said about 4-for-all w/ items and all stages, character choice is irrelevant due to far too many factors outside of any player's control, and far too many factors outside of each individual players' control. The tier list is literally 1) Everybody, and the winner of the match might as well be decided by everyone roling a D20 and the highest roll wins. Skill does not overtake matchups, as there are far too many random factors. Normally, with evenly matched characters, the better player will win 100% of the time. With Items and awful stages, it's probably closer to 55% to 60%, unless the skill gaps is HUGE.

Yes, the game was not balanced for torunament play. This is a de facto argument for the fact that this tier list HAS to exist. You're welcome to create your own tier list for your own rules or even your own playgroup/metagame. That is not what this is. This is very specifically the tier list for tournament rules and the professional-level tournament metagame. Any discussion that is NOT about this is 100% irrelevant to the topic, and thus has no place in this thread. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 02:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I know that the tier list exists, I can live with that, I'm just saying how some people go psycho because their main isn't top tier. I do ignore the tier list, I don't go to tournaments, I don't care about tiers. I never actually sated I don't directly like tiers, I said that I don't like how people go completely psycho when their character isn't top tier. [[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 14:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC) 
:smorekings right, he never actually said he hated tiers directly. I main Captain Falcon, and believe I'm angry, but not as angry as some people I've seen who go completely psycho. They are CRAZY! SZL-Talk 5:16 9/10/08
==so?==
I really think you guys and girls are going to overboard over how you are better at some low ranking person then another, especially the swearer. I am best with sonic, i stink with game and watch, and I rock with pokemon trainer, but i'm not complaining.[[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])

== If there's still debate about the existence of tiers ==

Then hopefully [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this will help]] turn a couple of you to our side. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 01:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

:Extreme TL;DR. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

::If that is tl;dr, I pity you. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm pretty sure that he was talking about the link, which i agree was tl;dr[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 17:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::::If people would actually read it then the QQness would stop. And don't change your font color to white, it's disruptive.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::I just read it, and most of that stuff has been said by various people before. That was more like a collection of arguments. I agree with that. Tiers exist, do I have to agree with them? No. Do I have to care about tiers? No. I don't go to tournaments, so I could care less about tiers.<small>(I think I just started to argue with myself</small>.'''<span style="color:orange;">L</span><span style="color:red;">O</span><span style="color:blue;">O</span><span style="color:Silver;">K</span>, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU DISTRACTION])'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 17:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::If you don't care about Tiers, but you acknowledge their excistance, why are you here? Just to annoy people? [[User:ZaxYo|ZaxYo]] ([[User talk:Zaxyo|talk]]) 17:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::''NOW'' you're learning! '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 20:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I said that I don't care about tiers, I just don't like it when people get upset because their main isn't top tier. I said that if you have enough skill, you can win with anyone. Tiers are based off of tournament wins and abilities, not necessarily skill. I know people are going to flame me for repeating the obvious, but I'm just saying when people freak because their main isn't top tier. So, as Johnny Storm(the human torch) would say, '''<span style="color:orange;">FLAME ON!</span>'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 22:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC) 


Hey guys. I don't have a lot of activity here, and I am really just a casual Brawl player, but shouldn't, in theory, Mario be in the center of the list? I always thought he was supposed to be the perfectly rounded guy. Maybe not? [[User:LeNoir|LeNoir]] ([[User talk:LeNoir|talk]]) 19:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
:The problem is, when almost every character in the game has multiple "Exceptional" aspects, being "average" in every aspect is not a good thing. The other thing is, despite being toted as "All-Around Average", many of his qualities are below average. The "Average" KO percent is around 120%. Mario has trouble killing under 150%. The "Average" recovery is really actually very superb. Mario's is probably the fourth or fifth worst in the game (after like, Link, Wolf, and maybe Ivysaur and Olimar). Most characters with projectiles have a good one. Mario's is one of the worst (after like, Kirby's Final Cutter and Luigi's Fireballs). And with all of his other stats being "average", he doesn't have anything to make up for it. Compare to a character like Sheik, who made Mid tier. Sheik has below-average killing power but has a good projectile, good overall speed, a Brawl-Average recovery, and one of the better combo potentials in the game. With no compensating factors, Mario's weaknesses are just too much. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 21:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

::(Or, more likely, it's just because no one really likes to use him because he's a really boring character to play as, therefor, not a lot of people use him in tournaments, thus messing up this tier list.) '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 07:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
:::You really don't get it do you?  Maybe if you actually read the stuff that we wrote, you would have a better understanding of the development of metagames.  Refusing to read things that are "too long" and then being ignorant of the content they cover is just bad practice on forums.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 01:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Fixed. '''[[User:Cafinator|<span style="color:Darkorange"><small><small>CAFINATOR</small></small></span>]]''' [[User talk:Cafinator|<span style="color:brown"><small><sup>Gentlemen...</sup></small></span>]] 04:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

== Everyone needs to see this ==

Everyone in the smash community needs to see [http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supersmashbros/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-45255000&pid=928518| this list].  It was made by Gamespot user xxpack09.  He combined the SBR tier list with that of another Gamespot user: Silverflash-x.  I believe that this is the best tier list I have ever seen, give or take a few things.  According to xxpack09, all credit goes to Silverflash-x and the SBR.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 03:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
:And what makes this tier list any more legit than any other tier list that someone just made up.  I give the Back Room one my vote simply because it's the back room, not some random guy.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
::I dunno, maybe it's just me.  Everyone there seems to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread.  I tweaked it a little bit on my page, so go have a look and see what you think!  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 04:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
*Eh, not a fan. There are like two or three "major" changes, and they are all things I very much disagree with (Olimar being high instead of Mid, Sheik being low instead of mid, Bowser being Low instead of Mid). I'd think the SBR has more knowledge on the subject than "Some random Gamespot User". I mean, otherwise the way to compile the tier list would be to take EVERYONE's tier list thoughts and average them. And that's certainly not correct. --[[User:Wildfire393|Wildfire393]] ([[User talk:Wildfire393|talk]]) 23:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
::I probably should have explained more on the "random guy" tier list.  It's gone through about ten different versions, one coming out every month or so.  During that time, users debate the placements, and believe me, they are very heated (maybe even more than those here).  Ultimately, the creator makes the call, but it is still very professional, in my opinion.  A thing I like about that one is that it's obvious if someone who wants to see one character move up has no idea what they're talking about.  On the other hand, (heres an example) two users (who were apparently quite respected there) did this HUGE research thing to appeal for Ike moving ahead of Mario on one of the older versions.  I'm talking pages of just them, praising Ike, and dissing Mario.  They got their way, but only because they knew what they were talking about.  I think the list is credible (the similar version on my page is a little more opinionated).  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 23:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

== To those who are whining that the tier list is wrong ==

Do you really think the SBR was likely to get every single character placed exactly as you want them on the first draft? Give the SBR a break. They'll revise the tier list. I think there are mistakes, but I'm not going crazy over something I think is wrong. - Pokegamer

No one is going that crazy...this list is obviously rushed and incorrect. We were just expressing our opinions. --[[User:Oxico|Oxico]] ([[User talk:Oxico|talk]]) 00:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

just like I said, some people are better at using some characters then others. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])

To the SBR's credit I think the top and high tiers are at least 95% right; it's the lower ones that look rushed. I think Link definitely should be higher than Mario for example. -[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]]

== Slow Characters ==

Most people discount characters who are slow as bottom-tier, even ones like Snake and DeDeDe that have deceptively effective strategies, but have they ever taken into account that people can actually have good timing with rolls and grabs? People say stuff like "Snake dies to fast characters", but have they gone against a Snake user who actually shields and uses rolls? "Haha Snake just landed, time to use my Smash attaOH CRAP HE JUST ROLLED OUT OF IT AND SNAKEDASHED ME."

People who've never used Snake have just never seen the power, priority, and the incredibly disjointed hitboxes of his tilts. Snake can easily beat Sonic. If Sonic dashes toward Snake on the ground, a simple forward tilt combo will stop the little hedgehog. If the little hedgehog approaches from the air, an uptilt will easily prevent him from coming near.
:Snake being able to beat Sonic is about as meaningless to tiers as it was that Marth beat Mewtwo.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 22:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
:He was using that as an example, Snake can easily beat most characters. [[User:Megaton Hammerstein|Megaton Hammerstein]]
::It was a bad example.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Not so, he was describing how just because a character is a lot slower than others (read:Snake, Ike, Dedede, Wolf etc.) does not mean that they can be spammed to death by the faster characters who ignore all strategies such as back rolling and simply relying on their speed to close the distance.  [[User:Dritz D27|Dritz D27]]
::::The example of Snake being slow was fine.  It's simply that Sonic does not have a single good move, so there's really nothing he could spam.  Maybe if he had talked about Meta Knight, but then...  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 05:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::I see your point.  [[User:Dritz D27|Dritz D27]]
::::::I don't see your point. I didn't mention spamming anywhere in my post, so why bring up that? And the reason why I didn't use Metaknight as an example is because when you think of a fast character, who do you think of? I know Snake beating Sonic is obvious; I was just backing the guy up with an example of how fast doesn't beat slow.

== Gee, it sure is boring around here ==

What? C. Falcon is one of the most top used tiers in the United States of America!!! So is Mario and heck, everyone on that poll!!! This tier list needs to be changed quickly, with more accurate results like the one on Melee. --[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|Blue Ninjakoopa]] ([[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|talk]]) 04:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

did you just now see it? [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 05:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

BNK, I really have no idea what you are talking about.  Falcon and Mario are not higher tier.  And being widely used (which they aren't) would not make them top tier.  Sure the tier list needs some ironing out, but I'm at a real loss as to what you are getting at.  Maybe give some reasoning as to why those characters should be higher...  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 05:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not at all surprised to see Ike in the high tiers, but Sonic is easily one of the best characters in the game. He most likely just isn't used very often in tournaments, because he is a somewhat counter-intuitive character. As soon as more people start using Sonic more often, his wins will stack up like mad.

Meta Knight is indeed an awesome character. In fact, he used to be my best one. There is pretty much no flaws whatsoever in the guy.

Meta-Knight is just a well built character all around. But I didn't lose to a Meta-Knight at my first Brawl tourny: I lost (With my Marth.) to a pair of R.O.B. players who were working together to get to the next round. If it had been just me and the Wolf player, I might have made it to the next round. The Wolf guy was good, but Marth ''definately'' has an advantage over him. I lost to a lot of MKs in some friendlies though. He's a much better fighter than I thought he would be. Marth vs. MK matches are a blast even when you lose though... [[User: Shadowball3.]]

It's good to see someone agrees with me. First of all, those characters do not "suck" like you think they do, C. Hawk. R.O.B. is one of the lowest tier characters in the game. So is Bowser and Donkey Kong (lots of other heavy weights too). The '''point''' I'm trying to get at is actually a question.

This "Backroom". What the hell is it, a group of nerds in one area? Compare that to the pros of America. Now, if this Backroom is what decides everything here, then there will be problems. By problems, I mean vandalism. [[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|Blue Ninjakoopa]] ([[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|talk]]) 20:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
:Go learn about the smash community.  The "Backroom" is an internet community made up of many of the top pros in the world, so it basically ''is'' the pros of America and abroad.   [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 18:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

...whoa. Heh, well I didn't know that. It's just so hard to believe that C. Falcon is so low now. Sure he has small hitboxes, but he's still good. When I was in Texas, noone at the Youth center used R.O.B. They all used Toon Link or Pit. Now, can you tell me where I can learn about this smash community? <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
:It's called the internet.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 15:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it's in ZSS's boobs; of course it's on teh internet. Anyway '''where''' can I find them '''most likely''' at? Simplified enough for you? <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
:I know this really great place that gives everything about smash and the smash community. its called Smashwiki check it out some time! - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 00:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

NO WAY! Where can I find smash wiki!? Y'know, you should check [[Wikipedia:Wikia|here]] to learn about wikia. :D<font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

==Whatever==
Why do we have to listen to them anyway? Everone has their own opinion. --[[User:Yowuza|<font face="Impact" color="5F9EA0">YOWUZA</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Yowuza|TALK 2 ME!]]</small> 18:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

:Ah, but you see, they have the virtue of knowledge and experience, not half-brained opinion. [[User:Semicolon|Semicolon]] ([[User talk:Semicolon|talk]]) 02:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Pwnt. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

== Thoughts on Yoshi ==

How could Yoshi be so low, he or she is like my fifth favorite character, this list is pretty wacko.

I know that this is the first iteration of the tier list, and I'm actually pretty...happy with how it came out.

I suspect, though, that [[Yoshi]] will probably see an improvement in his position before long out of virtue of one reason: [[Meta Knight]].

Yoshi was, pre-tier list, considered one of Wario's worst match-ups. Sometime afterwards, it was discovered that the evil green dinosaur has a grab release spike on Meta Knight, the top character in the game. This tilts the previously poor match-up to nearly neutral, with some arguing for a 6:4 advantage on both sides.

If Yoshi does have an advantage over Meta Knight (as Donkey Kong does), making him one of only a couple of bad match ups for the wee warrior, how do you think his future placement will be impacted?

How does DK have an advantage over MK? I don't get that. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 01:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

MK has the advantage over almost every character with his speed. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

DK has a longer reach than MK with higher priority and more powerful attacks. MK can beat just about everyone in the air.....except DK. This is one of the match-ups where MK is either defending himself or dying.

As for Yoshi, he is good/decent at a lot. Not especially strong in any area, but he's got potential. Relatively quick, respectable killing power and damage potential. Tier-wise, match-ups considered, I'd put him around the middle.
-[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]] ([[User talk:RogueMastermind|talk]])
:Yoshi himself is a low tier character, but he'll see more play because of his advantage over MK, but then again...  Yoshi has a pathetic 3rd jump, giving MK an advantage.  This could go either way.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 06:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yoshi has no third jump. Plus, Donkey Kong has some slow moves. If he uses something like a fsmash or dsmash, MK can quickly dodge and attack. As for aerial game, DK is pretty decent. His aerials are somewhat quick, but he is still very vulnerable to MKs FoP.
:His up-B (Egg throw) now has a slight jump to it.  [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 23:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Yoshi's moves have been completely ruined, from down to forward smash. His egg roll and some other attacks are still good. As another note, Yoshi should be able to tether recover with his tongue. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 19:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

''"As another note, Yoshi should be able to tether recover with his tongue."'' Agreed. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 17:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I know, right? <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Or at least eat items, wouldn't you think? [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|5280s]] <small>([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Miles.oppenheimer|contributions]])</small> 01:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! He should do those things. I think the director of SSBB went a bit lazy on Yoshi. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

==Opinions on Mario==
Let's talk about Mario for a bit. He has decent speed, power, FLUDD isn't that bad, Cape is fun to use for gimping recoveries, and his down smash is easily one of the quickest smashes in the game. He has potential but unfortuanetly barely anyone uses him in competitive play DX. I think he should make low mid tier.

As for Toon Link, there was so much talk about him being high tier, so I'm surprised that he makes the top of just mid. I think he should be around low high.

And Sheik, even being nerfed, should be higher than Ike in my opinion.

-BrawLBlazer

I always thought it was a general rule of thumb to always place Mario in the middle tier. He's the most balanced character. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 20:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
:There's no rule on where we have to place any character.  Any way, Wildfire wrote something above on why being "just average" isn't good in Brawl.  And I hate to break it too you, but FLUDD is pretty much useless and the cape isn't that great at gimping recoveries now that characters can grab ledges from behind.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
::Is that all you care about? Edgehogging? There is moar to Brawl then edgehogging, y'know. As for F.L.U.D.D. being useless, I scored about 7 KOs with it in one short match. '''No move or character''' is useless. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 22:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Even so, not useless!=high tier. --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 23:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
:I'm going to start with Shadowcrest. What? <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I hate to change the subject, but Sheik should not go above Ike.  In fact, she should switch places with Lucas.  Lucas is only there because of a tricky recovery and being chaingrabbed by Marth.  Sheik can't kill.  For her life.
:Yes she can. I don't use her but I fight her and she can land some sweetspots on me well. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Vanish? Usmash? hello? [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'll give Sheik the U-smash, but the vanish has tricky timing to it.  It takes about 150% damage (average) for Sheik to KO with the U-smash.  Anyways, my point was that Lucas is better than Sheik. [[User:Cheezperson|Cheezperson]] ([[User talk:Cheezperson|talk]]) 02:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I get half of my kills from vanish around 80%. Usmash (for me) has killed a bowser at 80% too. they can be good kill moves. and when you put a Lucas vs. Sheik Match up, Sheik wins. Vanish Glide, great DACUS, excellent edgeguarding AND great mindgames. and if you cant get a kill with her, switch to zelda(=p). [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 03:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:JtM FTW!!! <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::Just because they're not useless doesn't make them good. FLUDD is and will always be a terrible move. Even if it has very very rare uses, what moves are worse? I'm drawing a blank. Just because Mario isn't useless doesn't make him good. Thus, a low ranking.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 01:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:That's just your opinion. Mario's FLUDD is useful for preventing successful recoveries. You just don't like it because you suck with it. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

In my opinon, Yoshi's Egg roll move is more useless than FLUDD. I also find it funny that Nintendo didn't make their mascot "godly" in the game.

-BrawLBlazer
:To be honest, I think Sakurai is so blind to competitive gaming theory that he actually thinks all the characters are perfectly balanced...  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::*Buzz* Wrong, C. Hawk. I'd like to see you tell him that to his face. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::I'd have no problem saying that.  I'm sure he'd respond that he believes it's "balanced" for four player free for alls with all items on medium.  At which point I'd tell him that there is only a fake sense of balance, as the game has ceased to be competitive when random chance has more of an impact on outcome than skill and decision making.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::I wouldn't complain at all if I were you. The purpose of videogames (like Cheez has said to me before) is to relax and have fun. It is people like you who rip that directly from the point. Aside from that, when are we going to have a Brawl (GXD and I VS you and Semicolon)? <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 03:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::You're being pretty narrow on your definition of fun.  To me (and many other people) there is just as much fun, if not more, in high level competition and rapid decision making.  I won't go on for a long discussion of this here, but suffice it to say that I have a great deal of fun trying to play to the highest level possible in situations where the only influences are my skill versus my opponent's.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 04:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::You forgot the relax part. You strive for winning and nothing moar. I take it you are scared to fight GXD and I. I don't see you as the type to back down from anything. People are never who they seem. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 04:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::There's a difference between scared and busy.  I'll discuss our match and/or our personality further in a more appropriate place.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 04:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Alright then. I look forward to fighting you and Semicolon. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 04:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I do agree that Lucas should be higher than Sheik, but I still think she should be higher than Ike.

-BrawLBlazer

How 'bout the Toon? Any takers for him being higher? I think he should be. - Pokegamer

Good aerials, slightly quick, decent recovery, a stall then fall aerial, quick smashes, tether recovery. Yup, TL should be around high. Too bad not that many people use him in tourneys though. =0

-BrawLBlazer

FLUDD has some good uses! Check [[Cape Glide]]. Yes, it's risky, but still... - [[User:Amycats2|Doggy Guy]] ([[User talk:Amycats2|talk]]) 02:14, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

FLUDD is the most useless thing in the game. It does no damage, takes forever to charge up. It's so stupid I hate FLUDD. --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 16:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that I'm deeply saddened by the changes to Mario. I've been maining as Mario for 10 years now, back to the original SSB, and I am devastated to find out that he's been nerfed to death. FLUDD is useful, but hardly as good as Mario Tornado. It's just sad to me that I find myself going to characters like Lucario and Dedede more than the character I grew up using. -DRxINFERNO
:Mario's F.L.U.D.D. is fun to use and it can come in handy. But yes, I personally liked the Mario Tornado more. I miss my Down Aerial to Mario Tornado combos. But I also main him since the first smash bros and I still do. We just need to adapt ourselves to his new moves. For me, Mario will always be the man. 
:About that Sakurai thing of the characters being balanced, I have something to say. Sakurai's criations (Kirby, MK and DDD) rock in competitive play. If you think about it, their Final Smashes suck (although Meta Knight's is decent, but still...) but in competitive play there are no items. And normally Final Smashes make it up for the character's moveset. For instance, Sonic lacks KO potential, but his Final Smash is one of the best. Did Sakurai give them crappy Final Smashes ocasionally? I don't think so. And you? [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 15:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

==The List Sucks==
Namely due to the top & low tier placings... [[User:Kperfekt722|KP317]] ([[User talk:Kperfekt722|talk]]) 05:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll talk for CH: "Didn't you just see the dispute that was going on? We all have our own opinions!" lolz Srsly, we just settled this. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 05:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

==samus and zero suit==
How is Samus used less then zero suit samus? The only way you can select zero and not samus isn't exactly super widely known. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]]) 05:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
:Actually, it's pretty easy to do.  Plus, the pros will know everything, and that's who this list is about.  Finally, the amount that the character is used is not a factor in tiers.  It's simply the character's potential.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 14:34, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
::But it is possible that the amount of characters used '''''can''''' make a difference. If everyone only plays MK and there is maybe one person in the world that doesnt use MK, then obviously MK would be top tier due to tournament rankings. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 14:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

::: I agree with the tiers, just not the lists. Now, if everyone who used Meta Knight used the Captain instead, Captain Falcon shoots up. A lot. - Pokegamer

:::: Imagine that, lol. Captain Falcon fights are so fun. But unfortuanately, this tier is not based on casual play. But if they made one, I'm sure that Ike would be one of the top characters. O_o So many noobs use him.

- BrawLBlazer

==Ike isn't a bad character!==
Thank God that Ike isn't in low tier, but middle tier? Come on. I understand that his slowness is a disadvantage, but it can actually be used to his advantage with good prediction. A bunch of his attacks have good knockback, his sword has good range, his Super Armor moves are useful and very easy to use, and combined with Counter, he is a very good defensive character. Also, Quick Draw and Aether are great recovery moves, although they are predictable. His smashes may be slow, but they are strong, especially his forward smash, which is full of ownage. Like I said before, Ike is a slow character, but his range, power, and defensive tactics definitely make up for that. With good anticipation, timing, and prediction, Ike is a very good character to use. If you think I'm wrong, check out a smasher named Kirk. He's a big contributer to Ike's metagame, made a guide for using him, and has a YouTube profile (www.youtube.com/kdr4485) where he has uploaded a bunch of Brawl videos of him using Ike, such as in matches. In my opinion, Ike deserves to be at least somewhere in the High tier. -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 01:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:Yay! another person to prove wrong! first off, Quick Draw=Horrible recovery. If someone just walks into it, Ike is immediately stopped, losing his chance of recovery. Aether is the only practical move for SA, and it takes a while for him to get back up from it. Shield to Fsmash anyone? He has a small shield size for his size, and Counter comes out slowly. So what if '''''one guy''''' contributes to Ike's metagame? Hundreds of people contribute to characters like Snake etc. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Wrong. Thousands of humans use Ike. They don't always use quickdraw, they will use Aether as well, duh! Also, Ike's counter is about as fast as Marths, but slightly stronger. Ike's shield is fine! He is also heavy! <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 02:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah, yes thousands of humans use Ike. None of them are any good. The counter isnt as fast as marths, i did an experiment, and it took many more frames to have it open, so what if its stronger, If marth tips his he does the same amount of damage. His shield does suck, it is small and liable to shield poking. Heavyness is not useful in brawl, as their is low hitstun. Bowser is heavy but he gets KO'd [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::::Ike's counter doesn't come close to matching Marth's in terms of speed.  When it comes to defensive moves, 6 frames is a big deal.  That's a tenth of a second delay right there, and that's not something you can always afford in a heated game.  As for the rest of Ike, you can see [[Forum:Anyone got an idea for a Brawl Tier list?|this forum]] for a previous discussion on it.  As for Ike's recovery, it is decent in one of the two directions, and horrible in the one you don't choose.  And I'm drawing a blank as to how his being slow is an advantage.  Yes, I'll grant that with good prediction skills you can overcome it to a degree, but that doesn't stop it from being a disadvantage.  Furthermore, those prediction skills would be put to better use with a character whose moves, to quote a previous discussion, are not "so slow that Helen Keller could see them coming."  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:02, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::Meh, I guess I got carried away on there. I see your guys' points, and I know perfectly well that Ike's counter has more start-up lag than Marth's. However, that also adds to the prediction thing as well, and Ike isn't as vulnerable as Marth after the counter frames end. I still think that Ike could be at least a LITTLE bit higher on the tier list, though. Wolf, too. -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 04:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well I think Sheik should be higher [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 04:38, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Well, I think that Chuck Norris should be above the top tier. XD -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 17:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:JtM, some of the best pros on this planet use Ike. It's just moar noobs use him than pros do. Following me here? As for Ike's counter being slower than Marth's, that is true. '''However''', since when someone hits any of them while countering, the enemy will freeze for a bit and take the damage, the speed of the move doesn't really matter, just the Start Up lag. Shiek, much like Yoshi, has been badly weakened from Melee, but she can perform techniques like Stalling-then-falling and tether recovering. ACDCGAMER, you're right. Wolf and Ike are very powerful and should be put up a tad higher. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 05:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:The start up lag was what I was referring to when I said that it is slower.  Ike's counter has a tenth of a second more start up lag than Marth's, and in terms of effectiveness that makes it much worse.  And not to sound like an ass, but what pros are you referencing that play Ike.  I've seen Azen and Gimpy play friendlies as him, but neither of them main him, and to be quite honest, Ike did not look all that promising even in the hands of tow of the top players in the world (not saying that I could beat either of them, but still...).  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 14:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::Clarinet Hawk, mah boi, you sounded nothing like an ass. Well, I don't exactly know the names of them but I heard in Japan that they usually main Ike. Fight [[User:GalaxiaD|my friend]], he'll show you that Ike is no force to be reckoned with. He has very good range, powerful attacks, and moderate manueverability. I know you have Marth as one of your mains, and not to sound stereotypical, but most of them dislike Ike. I, unlike most players, main low tier characters like Squirtle, Charizard, and Mario as well as Diddy Kong and R.O.B. (I say he's low because people only use him for his Dsmash). I'm going to your page to talk about the crew battle now. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 16:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
::I do play Marth, but Falco and Zelda are my Ike counters.  Diddy isn't a bad one either, although his light weight is amplified while fighting Ike.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 22:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:I main Falco as a secondary. I'm glad you know that Diddy is light too, some say he's a middleweight because he appeared in Mario Kart Wii as a medium character. Very stupid. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone could main Zelda professionally. Anyone can uncontrolably tap the C-stick repetatively for her strong-ass magic attacks. I usually use Olimar as my Zelda counter because his yellow pikmin can slightly cancel Zelda's magic. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

== Snake?? SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!!!!! ==

Personally, I don't see what all the controversy's about. As long as Snake is top tier, I'm happy. Any thoughts? --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 17:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

:I think Snake is a great character too, I just need to get used to him more. :P  -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 17:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Too slow and too technical for my blood. I'm all about speed, baby (not the drug)! - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 22:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

He's got good camping skills but other than that, Snake is sunk. I dont need to be in Snake's face to fight him, this is why I use Lucas. Not only are Lucas' projectiles faster than Snake's but the disjoined hitboxes of Lucas' moves are crazy. And if you can master Zap Jumping and Magnet Pulling ( the latter isnt hard, the Jumping is the hard part) you can recover pretty nicely, as long as you dont get sent up in the air. Lucas really needs to be at least low high. I know his moves are laggy, but this is why you dont use them unless you backed your opponent into a place where you KNOW they will either hit, or miss and you wont get the backhand. All Lucas masters will know when to use Usmash and Dsmash or PK Thunder. Snake isnt that great, and I'm going to prove it but kicking his ass, ROB's ass, Falco's ass, G&W's ass and especially Dedede's. Only person I say he couldnt beat is MK and that's because he's broken as hell. What was Sakurai thinking, packing all that damn power into one character? I mean, he has an advantage over like 88% of the cast. The only people that can have an least a chance of beating him is DK and Yoshi( who I still dont get is low tier if he has this chance of beating the best ranked character in the game, that's a load of bullshit.) Really, to beat Meta, you just have to hope you get Lucky, because honestly, all I see Meta do is UpB Dsmash, Glide Attack. And if he doesnt wanna fight, Dimension Cape stall anyone? Meta is just bastard..[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 23:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
:You sure do complain alot. All the characters that you think suck happen to be the best! You wanna know who sucks? Lucas, Pit, and Toon Link. Peach sucks as well. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 01:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:i think that snake is easy to learn to play as, but harder to learn how to fight against.

BMK I wasnt complaning. I was saying that it just takes a little skill to use Lucas, and thats why people dont use him. They dont wanna practice, they just wanna use a character that is easy to use, kills easily, and wins. That's not skill, it's just not funny.... Games are supposed to be fun, but using these MK, it just sucks the fun out of everything... I mean no disrespect to anyone, or you BMK or any of the characters. I am just stating my opinion towards the higher tier characters. That is it.[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 00:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:Not entirely true, like i said in the sentence underneath this, I main Peach. She has trouble getting kills and she is definitely not easy to use. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::You do know your saying that to a Peach mainer? [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Snake has the element of surprise. I lay a C4 down, wait, until theyve forgot about it, then blow it up. His Up Smash is powerful and has crazy long range. And sorry, but since I am a dedicated Ness hater, I hate Lucas as well cuz he's just like him. Yep I agree with JTM, peach has crazy good recovery and can randomly pull out bob-ombs and stuff. That's awesome. Bottom line is Lucas is a pansy..--[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 16:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::::No player worth his/her salt is going to forget where you placed the C4.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 17:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think Peach is all that good. The odds of pulling out a Bob-omb are very low, not to mention that Peach's F-Air is probably her only kill move. She's light, has bad priority, and a bad approach too. Her recovery is the only prop I can think of for her. On a side note, I'm undefeated against JtM's Peach. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
::Might that be because i just started using her? here is the fun part, She has more kill move than characters like Sonic(well, everyone does, but still) Usmash, Fair, Utilt, Stitchface(much more possibility than bobombs), etc. Peach has good kill moves. Bad approach? If she has a bad approach, then Glide-Tossed turnip and Peach bomber are nothing. Those are 2 great approaches. Light? Poor DI much? Bad priority, which is why you have to use her defensively. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 01:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to try and disprove me, at least don't use that upper-class tone. I can't stand that. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 03:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:You still havent changed... you ''still'' cant stand it when someone is right. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 13:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

::Because you're not right. Stop acting like a know-it-all. If you knew what you were talking about, then you'd be a better Smasher than me, but you're not. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I dont have to be good to know how to be good. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 00:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::JtM is right, Peach can KO with her Uair, Fmash, and Usmash, but that's just about it. But, '''you''', JtM can't stand when someone proves you wrong. Like GXD said, she sucks. Sonic has a better back air, Forward air, down air, Fsmash, and Usmash. He also has a better down smash. Face, Peach is ZSS with a dress on. For god's sake, quit saying everyone can't stand anything. It gets annoying. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:::How did i know you would defend GXD. ZSS with a dress on? whats that supposed to mean?! Sonic's Dair is only use by low level players, High level players can find a way to the ground without using that. Sonis definitely doesnt have a better Usmash, for gods sake his Utilt is stronger!! O_o you honestly think that Sonics fair WHICH YOU CAN DI OUT OF is better than Peaches powerful one? I'm sorry, but you have a screwed up version of metagame. whenever i say something i believe is right, GXD always says in an odd tone(yes, i can hear the internet) dont try and say im not right. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 22:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
::'''YOU. ARE. WRONG.''' Your just mad because my Sonic and my R.O.B. can kill your Peach. Try not to get too feminine, JtM. People (that '''DOES NOT''' include me) will think that you hate dudes. Try to use characters other than mine, i.e. Diddy Kong. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 00:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''YOU. HAVEN'T. CHANGED.''' Seriously, you guys need to chill. If JtM believes that Peach is better than Sonic (which IMO, she is. Then again, I'm not particularly good with either one), he's fully inclined to do so. If you believe that the 2nd-graders at your school are right and that girls are yucky and you therefore find it necessary to constantly flame the people who use them, that's your prerogative, Blue. If GXD feels the need to ALWAYS say he's the better smasher just because his ridiculously repetitive playstyle actually works on other n00bs (once again, that stupid pride I so constantly tried to break him out of), then the whole freedom of speech thing gives him full power to say such. I honestly only came here to help JtM because he said Blue was starting trouble again, and the Ike user within me told me to fight for my friends. I don't really give a crap about tiers, but these petty conflicts need to come to a stop. Honestly, you had best be glad I'm not a sysop (nor do I really want the job, too much responsibility), because I tend to have a zero tolerance for stupid arguments. [[User:Shade487z|Shade]] ([[User talk:Shade487z|talk]]) 00:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::::My pride is not stupid by any means, Shade. It is pride I have earned, because several people respect me and look up to me. They say I'm one of the best Smashers they've ever faced. You can't honestly sit there and say that Smashers are divided into just two categories. There are pros and nOObs, yes, but there are many types in between as well. I'm not a nOOb, because I don't suck at Brawl. In my humble opinion, I believe I'm rather skilled, and most people have agreed with me. Then again, I'm not a pro either, because I've never been to a tournament or faced other pros. This is why there are other denominations like Pro-Am and Semi-Pro, which are classes I believe I fit into. I've never played in a tournament, but I believe I could play on the same level as the pros (remember, it's easier to beat a pro in Brawl than it is to beat one in Melee). That's the definition of a Pro-Am. That's what I am, but I hope to go pro one day after winning some tournaments. I am not a nOOb, nor will I ever be one. Case closed. And if I'm so repetitive and easy to read, why can't you ever beat me consistently? I mean, you can read me like a book, right? - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 03:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:You use Diddy? dont you read? I said I havent used peach for a long time. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 00:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Since when did this turn into an argument about Peach? Snake rulez --[[User:GDawg816|GDawg816- &quot;Kept ya waiting, huh.&quot;]] ([[User talk:GDawg816|talk]]) 13:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
:You're right too, Snake has some of the most powerful Kicks in the game, but his moveset is much to confusing for me. I can prolly land an Fsmash every now and then, though. <font face="lucida sans unicode" size="2">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Blue Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Talk to me</span>]]</sup></small> 21:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

== counters for Meta Knight?  ==

Wolf has to be a counter because i have raped many a metaknight on wifi with my wolf because his blaster would screws up their approach.The blaster will stop mk's b, and forward b, and at close range the dagger at the end pushes him back, Then i just use quick a button attacks to build up damage and finish with a dsmash or usmash. The only problem is mk can gimp wolfs recovery like crazy, but I would never let myself get knocked off the stage much anyways. Also, wolf has way better range on his fsmash than any of mk moves except for his forward b but that move is kinda slow.

Well, if Wolf is a counter for Meta, count me in! I use Wolf myself, and I'd love to see Wolf kill him. Wolf does have better range... But that recoverery has to be fixed.[[User:JetKamakura|JetKamakura]] ([[User talk:JetKamakura|talk]]) 17:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


== A Good Tier List ==

I like this tier list, it actully addresses the fact that speedy characters arn't gods and is more fair compared to the other tier lists, and I'm great that they didn't just put heavy characters at top and high tier. I also 50% agree where Sonic is, he is good but not that good I mean he deserves a higher place, Snake's tier is totally suprising because you need good planning and your simply love long ranged weapons. Meta Knight I 90% agree, he is really good but he doesn't have any ranged attacks and I enjoy the fact Bowser is suprerior to Ganondorf tier wise and his potential has been born. I wonder what it would be like if The Apprentice was in SSBB from TFU. I like tier lists and if there is a war, I'm with the tier list side. [[User:Dark Overlord|Dark Overlord]] ([[User talk:Dark Overlord|talk]]) 03:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

: I agree with the tiers, just not the lists. - Pokegamer

== YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME..... ==

ok, seriously..... Sonic, one of the last?'lemme tell you, i main sonic, and at least deserves to be high-tier, if not, low on the top-tier list. i mean seriously! He lacks KO potential, but that is what his speed is made for! not letting the opponent hit you until you get them to around 180% isn't that difficult to pull off (ok, i may have exaggerated a bit, its more like 130% but still!) then,  simple side smash, or down smash can finish! Dang, most of the time i play as sonic, the opponent gets ko'd around 50% with his superb aerial combat, of my secret aerial spin-dash combos! i can understand some of the characters being in their place, but seriously, think about sonic.and Dedede. he's high because of what? that figgin' chain-grapple spamming crap? think about it. other characters have advantages, and some have flaws. but think about the quantity of advantages over quality, will ya'?!?!? sheesh.....  <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Exeledus|Exeledus]] ([[User talk:Exeledus|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Exeledus|contribs]]) 21:54, 8 October 2008</small>
:Quality > quantity has never been more true.  --[[User:Shadowcrest|<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest</font>]] 22:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::O_o wow. youre kinda late. but you cant be serious when you say Sonic should be higher than MK [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 22:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Dude, Sonic is bad.  His aerial combat?  What with his slow air speed and inability to sweet-spot the ledge, he's easily juggled by the opponent.  But hey, if you really think Sonic is awesome, go win some tournaments with him and we'll talk then.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 23:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Sonic has the 5th greatest air speed in the game, tied with DK. And if Sonic's in danger of being juggled, he can just use his Stall-Then-Fall to counter them. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 01:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:well you could, but then the landing lag is WAY too punishable. [[User:JtM|JtM =^&#93;]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Only if the juggler has low damage. If he/she has high damage, then they'll receive knockback and Sonic will be able to get out of his landing lag in time. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 22:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is an entire forum page on this somewhere.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 02:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[Forum:Opinions on Sonic|This]] is it, FYI.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 02:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree Sonic should be higher, but he definately does not deserve high tier.
-BrawLBlazer

== Lol? ==

In one of his updates (or whatever they were called), Sakurai actually said that ZSS wasn't the best of fighters. And yet she ended up higher on the list than her Power Suit form did. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 02:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:u got the wrong idea. look right here. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stout he called her not the stoutest, not "not the strongest"] --[[Special:Contributions/69.12.204.172|The Anonymous]]--

Snake? SECOND BEST? You know there is something wrong when Snake is second best. But i have to agree with a lot of the other placings. Especially MetaKnight. But Kirby and Captain Falcon should be so much higher! [[Cook Kirby]]

Agreed with Kirby higher, but Snake is second in the tier list due to amazing projectiles (most of which are difficult to reflect), quick finishers (up tilt and dash attack), superb recovery (C4 and Cypher can create nearly infinite recovery, and the latter gives Super Armor), Snakedashing, powerful aerials, including two spikes, and heavy weight. There's a reason he's possibly the most used character in tournaments. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 12:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

And what would that reason be? He's definitely not a pick-up-and-play character like MK. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 18:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

== King Dedede ==

I know that SBR knows a LOT more than me, so I am not complaining about the tier list.  Having said that, why is King Dedede the third highest tier?  He has the slowest air speed, is slow, a large target who can't duck, predictable recovery, and most importantly he is the king of lag.  But remember: I'm not saying that King Dedede should be lowered from his position.  I'm sure that there are good reasons why is Top Tier and I would just like to know them. [[User:Enigmatic Mr. L|Enigmatic Mr. L]] ([[User talk:Enigmatic Mr. L|talk]])
:Make up your mind!  Anywho, it's because he can chaingrab and has ranged, powerful attacks.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 01:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


DDD has a great stand-alone air game, decent priority attacks with plenty of reach, strong recovery, one of the best projectiles in the game, and has retarded chain grabbing. He boasts a great defensive game and Inhale/Waddle Dee Toss protects him from other projectiles as well. DDD may not be great in a FFA, but he's a monster in 1v1.
[[User:RogueMastermind|RogueMastermind]] ([[User talk:RogueMastermind|talk]])

Dedede's Waddle Dee throw can block projectiles very easily, and yes, he has a good defensive game, helping him being a large target. While his recovery is predictable, it's not that easy to be gimped - Special Up has Super Armor, and anybody who tries to go underneath it will be spiked. Not only that, it improves his air speed. His quick attacks (back air, up and down tilts) are good for racking up damage. His Jet Hammer can make him kill at dangerous percentages (150%+). His side smash is a great edge-guarder tool and can kill at extremely low percentages. The rest are good, somewhat quick finishers (down) or good to start combos (up). His multihit attacks are powerful and have quick start up time (up air, down air, neutral a). He's just an overall good character. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 12:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to sound indecisive.  I just listed his cons because one person would list and deconstruct them, like Meteorite did with the thing about being a large target and predictable recovery.  Thanks for explaining it to me guys!  [[User:Enigmatic Mr. L|Enigmatic Mr. L]]  ([[User talk:Enigmatic Mr. L|talk]])

== Is anybody listening ==
These are some people's opinions, and you guys ahve to complain about them. Very mature. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])
:Well, their opinions (I'm guessing you're talking about SBR) were made official.  Officiality of anything is always controversial.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 22:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::interesting thought, cheezperson. true. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]]) 04:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

== i thought olimar would be higher ==


----
i thought olimar would be a ton higher and serisously what makes people say meta night is best...

TIRES DON EXITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=== My little addition to the article ===
I personally know many members of SBR and smashboards who helped make this list, before I start, I have been to tourneys since smash 64 days and these are all my honest opinions from playing vs. some of the top people
Top
Meta Knight: Deserves this spot, no real counter besides some people say Marth (a bit) and Game and Watch (soft counter), tornado incredibly powerful, aerials great, great down smash, and one of the only recoveries that cannot be gimped, slightly light but easy enough to survive further than most lights due to recovery, watch M2K or Plainrhk LOL planking, or Inui for the Lulz
Snake: Correct, overpowered tilts, Very odd hitboxes (as in broken for up tilt), a bit too heavy which is a good thing, recovery can be gimped, ALC'd n-air is incredibly powerful, grenades and Snakedash assist low running speed by allowing great approaches, only reason why I don't say top is due to recovery problems (and King D3), watch DSF, Unholydeath, Tapion, or Ally
King D3: I personally think 4th or 3rd, Some incredibly good matchups (Luigi, Bowser, Ike, Ganon), some moderately bad matchups (MK a bit), only reason why he'll stay up there is due to his great work vs snake, overpowered recovery,  for a heavy, Does '''not''' just have chaingrabs, Have you EVER seen a pro d3 use back air and up tilt or are you just used to throw's? Watch Aero or M2K
Mr. Game & Watch: Deserves D3 spot or this spot, OVERPOWERED BACK AIR, ALL smashes have ISA frames and extra hit boxes, Down smash has ridiculous properties (one of few good edgeguards in the entire game), Up Smash kills at too low percentages, F-smash has extra hitbox and kills quickly, down tilt good edgeguard, Best or second best glide toss in the game, Up B canceling into down air prevents most counterattacks, n-air can "combo", only real problem is weight, float, and shield, and let's not forget, '''he is the ONLY CHARACTER IN THE GAME THAT ACTUALLY DOES ACTUALLY WELL VS META BESIDES LUIGI''', watch DC, not enough people playing him
Falco: Laser's, throws gimp (combined with reverse dashed throws and other tactics, dash-canceled up smashes rape shields, recovery big problem, aerials help, HUGE problem with killing besides f-smash and at odd times back air or down air gimps vs some characters, Massiveguns, Red Haliberd good examples
R.O.B.: great recovery, f-air to down air gimp, glide toss's assist Down B, good throws, nice kills, maybe better than falco, MAYBE, just plain good vs every character, no real major weakness, bad moves out of shield besides down smash but down smash can be Smash DI'd out of, BEST RECOVERY IN THE GAME, (Metal Fists of Pain for the win), most ROB's are good, watch DullRazor

High
Marth: aerials rape, down tilt has ISA frames, Tippered aerials and smashes kill at ridiculous percentages, nice weight, great range, moderately good vs MK, moderate recovery, just top tier characters are slightly better, moderate weakness to snake and R.O.B., watch Bardull or the combo video redemption
Wario: Good aerials, recovery can be gimped, good kill moves but can be hard to hit them, heavy but a bit floaty, So....Many.....Super Armor Frames, Down air is good, unpredictable, Futile's Wario, Nuff Said......xD
Lucario: good aerials, recovery can be gimped, I think this one might be a bit too high, recovery, good throws, Aura, Azen and Zujii help tremendously with this ranking
Donkey Kong: Bum is too good xD, does moderatley well vs both snake and MK (this is the reason), back air is good, smashes kill, down smash kills easy, Great super armor moves, Up B helps and is moderately good recovery, nice weight,
Diddy: DANG IT Banana's, Banana combos, moderate recovery, very quick moves, not that many killing moves but banana's help tremendously in this department, weight a bit low, NinjaKing, Dapuffster good choices
Pikachu: There is only one thing I need to say: QUAC, QUAC, and more QUAC, Watch anther for a good idea, a bit too light, recovery great
Ice Climbers: 0 to deaths with throws, loses vs Luigi and does bad vs projectile users, but 0 to deaths = win, Blizzard = too good, watch Fly Amarita
Kirby: Combo crazy, Thows = massacre, kills become predictable, wall of pain, dies way to easily, multiple people are good (no specific)
Pit: allows 2 ways of playing him, aerials somewhat good, moderately bad vs Rob, Meta, and Snake, does well vs heavies, great recovery but can be gimped, Projectiles = Win, watch Admiral Pit or other's
Wolf: Recovery = bad, good back air and f-air, down smash is good, can get out of other moves, only main problem recovery, watch Germ's Wolf
Middle
Toon Link: great projectiles, nice ko's, can be gimped, too floaty, dies a bit too easy, watch Hyrulian Royalty
Olimar: as in Lolimar for his recovery, get him off the edge and dead, good aerials, incredibly weird hitboxes, watch L-Cancel for good uses or other good ones, Down B = Fun to prevent kills
Fox: Watch samboner, nuff said, up smash crazy, can be gimped, a bit too quick, nice shine, good back air, problem recovery and a bit KO'ing, problem vs snake and falco
Zelda: Smashes can be gotten out of, incredibly easy to predict, recovery buffed, aerials somewhat buffed, good Zelda users can use her new lightning kick well, Easily predictable is real only problem, recovery can be gimped at the beginning, Good projectiles, Watch Dark musician
Zero Suit Samus: myRoboticClaw, nuff said, good kills, back air great, recovery can be gimped from below, killed a bit to easy, GREAT aerials and approach
Bowser: Survives....Way.....Too....Long, good f-air and down smash, i think this is a bit too high (maybe luigi is slightly better), moderately good vs meta, Side-Stepped Down throw infinite by D3 kills him and prevents any higher placement
Luigi, harder to infinite than most (but good d3's can), floaty, great aerials, main problem is marth and d3 (basically good vs top tiers and bad for high tiers), as said above cannot handle quick aerial characters, watch Samboner, Jbandrew, Meep, Ultra Luigi, or definitley m2 (the person playing vs Kizzu) or the Isreali player who also plays a mean Ice Climber, problem recovery
Peach: not enough killing moves, great combos but really only at 0, can be predicted, good recovery but can be gimped, good down air and f-air, turnips help, watch Praxis, DarkPch, Crystal Peach, or Edrees
Ike, Tap a cancels of doom, Throws help, Smashes kill, good ikes can predict, big problem vs Projectile users, too much countered by Falco, watch  RenegadeX2000 (I think thats his name) or a bunch of others
Sheik, watch Gimpyfish (GET F-AIR GIMPED), not that many kills, moderately bad recovery, tilts help, good vs fast fallers, bad vs floaties, a bit too high

Low
Lucas: Watch Chucky or a bunch of others, good kills, down smash helps tremendously, good air's, can be gimped, I think better than shiek but worse than others, throw for marth = dead
Ness: Its Lucas but he can't kill as easy and has a worse recovery, Nuff Said, good throws for kills, problem vs star fox characters, down air = win, HORRIBLE recovery, Throw for marth = dead, not that many people use him
Mario: bad recovery, good aerials, i think better than ness, moderate kill problem, great back air and down throw, watch BOSS or some others
Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle is great due to hydroplaning but has too little range and moderately bad recovery,, Ivysaur is good for combos but has the recovery of lolimar and weaker aerials, Charizard has many killing moves but too little to work with at lower percentages, better than mario I think, not enough people use him
Samus, way too little ko's but better than this placement, f-air to down tilt = win for kills, good projectiles, fails vs meta's and all of the star fox characters, Z-Air is too good, watch remember the name (Rohins), Xyro's samus, or Tudor's Orange Oompa Loompa

Bottom
Yoshi: Hmm, not enough ko's, new techniques are helping, shield is fun to use, does bad vs GaW, good recovery
Sonic: good damage dealing, not enough ko's, recovery can be gimped but good, watch good yoshi's xD
Jigglypuff, Good aerials but too little range, loses to marth kinda badly, does moderatley well vs projectile characters, not enough range and too light, smash's don't help, watch any good one lool
Ganondorf HITS LIKE A BEAST, but is really slow and projectile users (esp falco) kill him, Lag-cancelled aerials win, watch Zakosai or others
Link: bad recovery, I think better than ganon, projectiles help, watch Izaw
Captain Falcon: Prime = TOO GOOD...that is all, can't combo for s***, bad priorit
KoRo TeH BeAr 13:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Falcon CAN combo. I tried to prove the SWF wrong many times, but they're too snobby to take me serial. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 21:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== I want everyone to look at this before posting... ==

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Now what? HUH PUNK??? - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL nice Hatake, although i would have to disagree woth the mark that Ness has a big disadvantage against Mario. I would just say that it either a small disadvantage or neutral. [[User:Cree318|Cree318]] ([[User talk:Cree318|talk]]) 23:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, Meta Knight has an advantage over all characters. Oh c'mon, how can this be possible? He must have at least one disadvantage. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 13:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
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