Editing Forum:Removal of Origin Game/Artwork from List of spirits pages
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{{forumheader|Proposals}} | {{forumheader|Proposals}} | ||
{{Proposal | {{Proposal}} | ||
After attempting a [[Forum:General proposals/Archive 4#Removing "Origin Game" sections in Spirit lists|proposal on this topic]] on the general proposals page, and after it was touched upon on [[Forum:Splitting stats on spirits by series lists#Off-topic: moving the game/artwork origin column|an earlier proposal]], I've decided to promote this into its own page. | After attempting a [[Forum:General proposals/Archive 4#Removing "Origin Game" sections in Spirit lists|proposal on this topic]] on the general proposals page, and after it was touched upon on [[Forum:Splitting stats on spirits by series lists#Off-topic: moving the game/artwork origin column|an earlier proposal]], I've decided to promote this into its own page. | ||
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#::SW:OFFICIAL doesn't really apply here; we still list both official and unofficial information in these pages besides Series and Origin Games/Artworks, and it not being official was never an argument made in favor for its removal. In the case of artwork, I believe it's only necessary to specify its origin should it be sufficiently noteworthy for trivia, and I don't believe an image's origin is of large enough interest for the majority of the community that its removal could be considered detrimental, unlike something like the Inspiration column. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|<span style="color:#89f">Nokii</span>]]''' — 18:40, March 16, 2020 (EDT) | #::SW:OFFICIAL doesn't really apply here; we still list both official and unofficial information in these pages besides Series and Origin Games/Artworks, and it not being official was never an argument made in favor for its removal. In the case of artwork, I believe it's only necessary to specify its origin should it be sufficiently noteworthy for trivia, and I don't believe an image's origin is of large enough interest for the majority of the community that its removal could be considered detrimental, unlike something like the Inspiration column. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|<span style="color:#89f">Nokii</span>]]''' — 18:40, March 16, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#As Cookies said, it's harmless enough, and provides some interesting info for curious readers. In contrast, the Series Order not only provides less info, but in some cases it's absolutely redundant; several long-running series such as [[List of spirits (The Legend of Zelda series)|Zelda]], [[List of spirits (Yoshi series)|Yoshi]], [[List of spirits (Metal Gear series)|Metal Gear]], [[List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series)|Sonic]], and [[List of spirits (Animal Crossing series)|Animal Crossing]] each list only a single "origin series" for all spirits; surely, that's no less redundant than specifying that all Punch-Out artwork is from the Wii title. In other cases, SmashWiki does go directly against what the games actually say in the interest of providing more precise information; <s>for example, ''SSBU'' merely says that the {{SSBUMusicLink|Star Fox|Star Wolf}} theme is from ''Star Fox 64'' (where the theme originated), but SmashWiki says this track comes from ''Star Fox Assault'' instead (where this specific remix is directly ported from).</s> I don't see why we can't do the same for spirits, as we already have been doing. I certainly wouldn't be against combining "game/artwork origins" and "series" into a single table, but I do feel we'd be losing something if we cut the former out entirely. --[[User:PeabodySam|PeabodySam]] ([[User talk:PeabodySam|talk]]) 15:57, March 23, 2020 (EDT) | #As Cookies said, it's harmless enough, and provides some interesting info for curious readers. In contrast, the Series Order not only provides less info, but in some cases it's absolutely redundant; several long-running series such as [[List of spirits (The Legend of Zelda series)|Zelda]], [[List of spirits (Yoshi series)|Yoshi]], [[List of spirits (Metal Gear series)|Metal Gear]], [[List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series)|Sonic]], and [[List of spirits (Animal Crossing series)|Animal Crossing]] each list only a single "origin series" for all spirits; surely, that's no less redundant than specifying that all Punch-Out artwork is from the Wii title. In other cases, SmashWiki does go directly against what the games actually say in the interest of providing more precise information; <s>for example, ''SSBU'' merely says that the {{SSBUMusicLink|Star Fox|Star Wolf}} theme is from ''Star Fox 64'' (where the theme originated), but SmashWiki says this track comes from ''Star Fox Assault'' instead (where this specific remix is directly ported from).</s> I don't see why we can't do the same for spirits, as we already have been doing. I certainly wouldn't be against combining "game/artwork origins" and "series" into a single table, but I do feel we'd be losing something if we cut the former out entirely. --[[User:PeabodySam|PeabodySam]] ([[User talk:PeabodySam|talk]]) 15:57, March 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#:While my previous Star Wolf example was incorrect, here is a better example: ''Ultimate'' does not provide the sources of the ''Dragon Quest'' music, most egregiously claiming that the ''Dragon Quest XI'' music is from the Definitive Edition, while SmashWiki does correctly provide the sources of the sequenced music tracks used in ''Ultimate''. Furthermore, SmashWiki in general is full of "origin game" information that isn't present in ''Smash'' (for example, [[Template:Infobox Character General|character infoboxes]] include trivial facts such as debut game, debut console, species, creator, designer, etc.), so I don't see why providing a little bit of extra information should be held against spirits. | #:While my previous Star Wolf example was incorrect, here is a better example: ''Ultimate'' does not provide the sources of the ''Dragon Quest'' music, most egregiously claiming that the ''Dragon Quest XI'' music is from the Definitive Edition, while SmashWiki does correctly provide the sources of the sequenced music tracks used in ''Ultimate''. Furthermore, SmashWiki in general is full of "origin game" information that isn't present in ''Smash'' (for example, [[Template:Infobox Character General|character infoboxes]] include trivial facts such as debut game, debut console, species, creator, designer, etc.), so I don't see why providing a little bit of extra information should be held against spirits. {{unsigned|PeabodySam|15:58, April 24, 2020 (EDT)}} | ||
#Even though some [[Pokemon Trainer|fighters]] [[Robin|dont]] [[Wii Fit Trainer| have]] [[Mii|origin]] [[Cloud|artwork]], that also doesnt mean we need to remove origin artwork from the list of spirits page. I agree to what both PeabodySam, and Cookies and Creme in this discussion mainly. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 15:11, April 24, 2020 (EDT) | #Even though some [[Pokemon Trainer|fighters]] [[Robin|dont]] [[Wii Fit Trainer| have]] [[Mii|origin]] [[Cloud|artwork]], that also doesnt mean we need to remove origin artwork from the list of spirits page. I agree to what both PeabodySam, and Cookies and Creme in this discussion mainly. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 15:11, April 24, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#I mean, we ''are'' an encyclopedia of information. We cover tons of origin-based information the mainline games don't bother to cover. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:40, April 24, 2020 (EDT) | #I mean, we ''are'' an encyclopedia of information. We cover tons of origin-based information the mainline games don't bother to cover. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:40, April 24, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#I feel like I would have agreed with deletion had the artwork all been from their origin game, but in many cases, especially the Pokemon spirits, the artwork doesn't come from their origin games but rather from other games. I feel like we should instead be focusing on narrowing down what the true origins of these artworks are. For starters, Bulbapedia has already identified all of the [[Bulbapedia:Category:Spirits artwork|Pokemon spirits.]] [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 05:57, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | #I feel like I would have agreed with deletion had the artwork all been from their origin game, but in many cases, especially the Pokemon spirits, the artwork doesn't come from their origin games but rather from other games. I feel like we should instead be focusing on narrowing down what the true origins of these artworks are. For starters, Bulbapedia has already identified all of the [[Bulbapedia:Category:Spirits artwork|Pokemon spirits.]] [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 05:57, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#So from what I can see the main reasons for the removal is because of speculation, redundancy and because it's unofficial. But there are problems with that. Exactly what part of it is speculation? If saying Ninten originated from EarthBound Beginnings as seen in the origin game column [[List of spirits (EarthBound series)]] is speculation, then that makes absolutely no sense. If you say the ''way we listed'' them is speculation then I can see that. But [[SW:SPEC]] does not apply here: speculation that should be avoided is if us editors or other people add their theories or assumptions to articles that could potentially spread false information. The origin game/artwork section lists the game the character originated from and where the artwork originated. That is in no way speculation or false information. | #So from what I can see the main reasons for the removal is because of speculation, redundancy and because it's unofficial. But there are problems with that. Exactly what part of it is speculation? If saying Ninten originated from EarthBound Beginnings as seen in the origin game column [[List of spirits (EarthBound series)]] is speculation, then that makes absolutely no sense. If you say the ''way we listed'' them is speculation then I can see that. But [[SW:SPEC]] does not apply here: speculation that should be avoided is if us editors or other people add their theories or assumptions to articles that could potentially spread false information. The origin game/artwork section lists the game the character originated from and where the artwork originated. That is in no way speculation or false information. | ||
::Redundancy makes no sense. As mentioned above many long running series all list only one origin series for all spirits, which is no less redundant than saying all Punch Out spirits artwork came from the Wii title. | |||
::Listing unofficially is no reason to remove it. [[SW:OFFICIAL|We are not official]]. We don't need to list things the way Nintendo does, in fact there are times we don't because [[Template:SSBU character table|the way we list it is better than the official way.]] | |||
::And that brings my last point: by removing the column you're also removing interesting information on where the artwork originated. As someone who has such little knowledge of the Pokemon series (Get off my lawn you pesky kids! There are only 251 Pokemon as far as I'm concerned! *waves double cane*), I never knew the spirit artwork was from the global link I never heard of, and I thought they were Smash- original artwork until I read the article then I learned. So my thoughts are the saying "If it's not broken then don't fix it": keep things the way they are as removing it will probably do more harm than good. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 07:48, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | |||
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==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
Just to clarify before I comment on this proposal, am I to understand that you wish to remove the image and origin game columns from the tables on the list of spirits articles? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 07:57, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | Just to clarify before I comment on this proposal, am I to understand that you wish to remove the image and origin game columns from the tables on the list of spirits articles? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 07:57, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:The section to remove is the origin game column which also has a brief mention where the artwork originated. We're not removing the images themselves, that would be | :The section to remove is the origin game column which also has a brief mention where the artwork originated. We're not removing the images themselves, that would be stupid. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 07:59, April 29, 2020 (EDT) | ||
