Editing Forum:List weight changes as buffs/nerfs
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Having proven the point with technical information from the game, let's look into the effects weight changes across games (including patches) have had on characters. When Sheik's weight was repeatedly reduced in Smash 4 patches (85 to 84, then 81), many players (including her top players, like ZeRo) agreed that it was a nerf overall, since the effect it had on her survivability was more significant than the effect it had on her vulnerability to combos. Likewise, Mewtwo's weight increases in Smash 4 patches (72 to 74) and in the transition to Ultimate (74 to 77, then 79) are widely agreed to be buffs as well. It's not those characters' weight that makes them vulnerable to combos; it's their hurtboxes that are either tall or large, especially in Mewtwo's case, and falling speed in Sheik's case (Smash 4). | Having proven the point with technical information from the game, let's look into the effects weight changes across games (including patches) have had on characters. When Sheik's weight was repeatedly reduced in Smash 4 patches (85 to 84, then 81), many players (including her top players, like ZeRo) agreed that it was a nerf overall, since the effect it had on her survivability was more significant than the effect it had on her vulnerability to combos. Likewise, Mewtwo's weight increases in Smash 4 patches (72 to 74) and in the transition to Ultimate (74 to 77, then 79) are widely agreed to be buffs as well. It's not those characters' weight that makes them vulnerable to combos; it's their hurtboxes that are either tall or large, especially in Mewtwo's case, and falling speed in Sheik's case (Smash 4). | ||
The easier you are to hit, the easier it is to connect a combo, and hurtbox sizes that vary so much across characters are more of a deal-breaker than minimal changes in launch distance. There's also the fact that [[hitstun]], which is obviously the driving force of combos (Smash 64 has a ton of them, Brawl barely has any; we all know the story), is directly proportional to knockback, so lighter characters will more often than not take at least one more frame of hitstun than heavier characters at the same percents, which in part offsets the increased launch distance. As | The easier you are to hit, the easier it is to connect a combo, and hurtbox sizes that vary so much across characters are more of a deal-breaker than minimal changes in launch distance. There's also the fact that [[hitstun]], which is obviously the driving force of combos (Smash 64 has a ton of them, Brawl barely has any; we all know the story), is directly proportional to knockback, so lighter characters will more often than not take at least one more frame of hitstun than heavier characters at the same percents, which in part offsets the increased launch distance. As well known and proven example, in Ultimate, Ridley is one of the most vulnerable characters to combos, on par with large heavyweights like Bowser and DK, even to the point kill setups (such as Ding Dong and Inkling's "Booyah") have the largest percent windows against him, despite being significantly lighter than them (107 units, compared to 135 and 127 respectively). The reverse is true as well; in Brawl, Snake's disproportionally high weight for his character size (113, the third highest in the game) is infamous as one of his best attributes, and what allows him to survive for so long, despite the game having several chaingrabs that would supposedly offset this huge advantage. | ||
Are there cases where increased combo vulnerability from having a higher weight is more detrimental than the benefit of surviving longer? Yes, but much fewer than users in this wiki keep constantly claiming, and only in Melee and Brawl; in Smash 4 and Ultimate, it is overall agreed that higher weight is more beneficial. In Melee, Fox's waveshine combos are less effective on lightweights because they get knocked down from the shine, rather than being pushed along the ground; this happens because his shine uses [[set knockback]] (80), which is affected more by weight than normal knockback (also verifiable in the Smash calculator), causing characters with weight under 85 to [[tumble]]. In Brawl, the same happens with Dedede's down throw, and while there are a few chaingrabs that work for longer enough on heavyweights (such as Falco and Wario's down throws), hurtbox sizes are still a larger factor in this case. | Are there cases where increased combo vulnerability from having a higher weight is more detrimental than the benefit of surviving longer? Yes, but much fewer than users in this wiki keep constantly claiming, and only in Melee and Brawl; in Smash 4 and Ultimate, it is overall agreed that higher weight is more beneficial. In Melee, Fox's waveshine combos are less effective on lightweights because they get knocked down from the shine, rather than being pushed along the ground; this happens because his shine uses [[set knockback]] (80), which is affected more by weight than normal knockback (also verifiable in the Smash calculator), causing characters with weight under 85 to [[tumble]]. In Brawl, the same happens with Dedede's down throw, and while there are a few chaingrabs that work for longer enough on heavyweights (such as Falco and Wario's down throws), hurtbox sizes are still a larger factor in this case. | ||
To summarize, weight decreases should be listed as nerfs, and weight increases should be listed as buffs, because its effect on survival is larger than its effect on combos. Listing all weight | To summarize, weight decreases should be listed as nerfs, and weight increases should be listed as buffs, because its effect on survival is larger than its effect on combos. Listing all weight as neutral changes is a poor assumption that keeps treating both sides as equal, and leads to an inaccurate documentation of character changes. [[File:034.png|20px]] '''<span style="font-family:Algerian">[[User:DracoRexKing|<font color="red">DracoRex,]]</font> [[User talk:DracoRexKing|<font color="olive">Creator of the Land]]</font></span>''' 11:29, December 10, 2019 (EST) | ||
'''Support.''' This is something I lukewarmly believed in for awhile, but the facts and logic stated here sell it to me completely lol. [[User:Aliks-Odev|Aliks-Odev]] ([[User talk:Aliks-Odev|talk]]) 14:44, December 10, 2019 (EST) | '''Support.''' This is something I lukewarmly believed in for awhile, but the facts and logic stated here sell it to me completely lol. [[User:Aliks-Odev|Aliks-Odev]] ([[User talk:Aliks-Odev|talk]]) 14:44, December 10, 2019 (EST) | ||
