Editing Forum:Get rid of all competitive navigation templates?

{{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->
{{Proposal|y}}
This is something that has been mentioned before, but was never decided upon. Competitive nav templates (such as Template:Ccsc) serve very little purpose and their grouping is usually loosely based on location of the tournament, crew, etc. We have already decided that individual smashers don't belong on these, but I would like to be rid of them completely. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)

==Support==
#I obviously support. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#I'd be fine with dropping most of them, but I think we could/should keep the ones for various tourney series. (ex. [[Template:GENESIS|here]] or [[Template:Apex|here]]) [[User:BaconMaster331|<span style="color: Crimson;">'''Bacon'''</span>]][[User talk:BaconMaster331|<span style="color: Maroon;">'''Master'''</span>]][[File:BaconMasterSig.png|16px|link=]] 20:29, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#drop every one except for tournament ones. [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 20:49, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#'''Do this asap''' Those templates annoy me to no end. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:DisasterFlareValentineSig.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 20:55, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#'''I don't have a stance on this, but support''' per everyone else. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:pink;">'''The Lovingly Evil Clone'''</span>]] 21:34, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#'''Support''' for every template on deletion. I saw the Ccsc template on {{Sm|Big D}}'s page when I edited it, and obviously thought it was unnecessary since that day. I'm glad the others are getting deleted as well. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]]''' 15:19, 2 March 2016 (EST)
#'''Support''' per everyone else. And don't worry BaconMaster, the tournament series templates are different from these ones, so those are safe. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 15:24, 2 March 2016 (EST)
#I '''support''', but we shouldn't delete tournament navigation templates like [[Template:Apex|Apex]] or [[Template:TGC|TGC]]. -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 15:28, 2 March 2016 (EST)
#Like with most other Wiki proposals, I arrived too late, and my opinion has basically already been summed up by others. But whatever, I still '''support'''. --[[User:MeatBall104|<span style="color: red">'''''Meat'''''</span>]][[User talk:MeatBall104|<span style="color: orange">'''''Ball'''''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/MeatBall104|<span style="color:Gold">'''''104'''''</span>]] [[File:MB104Pic2.jpg|20px]] 16:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)

==Oppose==

==Comments==
For me it depends on one basic question: if you're trying to navigate between competitive Smash topics, how is the most practical way to do it? Let's say someone wanted to look at, say, a) [[Smasher:Larry Lurr|SoCal Smasher pages]], b) [[Paragon Los Angeles 2015|SoCal tournament pages]], and c) [[SoCal Power Rankings]]. Right now, the best way to do that is to use [[:Category:Southern California smashers|multiple]] [[:Category:Southern California tournaments|categories]], which is workable but not necessarily as intuitive as a nav template. On the other hand, as I mentioned in the linked discussion in the OP, the issue becomes deciding notability requirements for a nav template and making sure it doesn't get filled with bloat. It's a tricky call. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:46, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:Would you at least call it reasonable to drop crews out of the templates? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:53, 27 February 2016 (EST)
::I suppose. That's kind of not my area of concern here. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:35, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:::To me, all these things are are annoyances. They get in the way when trying to delete pages, and they constantly have to be updated (but never are) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:37, 27 February 2016 (EST)
::::What I will agree with is that the current system is sloppy and inconsistent. However, before trashing the concept completely, I feel like it's worthwhile to consider the benefits of improving the system instead. For example, here's a sloppy mockup I threw together:
{{Navbox
| name  = Navbox
| title = Southern California competitive scene

| group1    = Top players (''[[Melee]]'')
| list1    = {{sm|Mango}}{{·}} {{sm|Westballz}}{{·}} {{sm|Lucky}}{{·}} {{sm|MacD}}{{·}} {{sm|S2J}}{{·}} {{sm|HugS}}{{·}} {{sm|Mike Haze}}{{·}} {{sm|Alex19}}{{·}} {{sm|Ken}}{{·}} {{sm|Fly Amanita}}

| group2    = Top players (''[[SSB4]]'')
| list2    = {{sm|ZeRo}}{{·}} {{sm|Larry Lurr}}{{·}} {{sm|VoiD}}{{·}} {{sm|Ito}}{{·}} {{sm|Tyrant}}{{·}} {{sm|K9}}{{·}} {{sm|falln}}{{·}} {{sm|Tearbear}}{{·}} {{sm|Mr. ConCon}}{{·}} {{sm|Zenyou}}{{·}} {{sm|Xzax}}

| group3    = Major tournaments
| list3    = [[Smash of Ages 2015]]{{·}} [[Press Start]]{{·}} [[Paragon Los Angeles 2015]]{{·}} more would go here

| group4   = Other
| list4   = [[SoCal Power Rankings]]{{·}} [[:Category:Southern California smashers|Smashers]]{{·}} [[:Category:Southern California tournaments|Tournaments]]

}}

::::I figure this is the kind of thing that should be considered. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:02, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Ok but we would then need to draw a firm line on what gets a nav template and what doesn't. Less notable groups are bound to have more out of date content, so these should be for only the most notable of groups. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:28, 27 February 2016 (EST)
::::::Agreed, which is why I used a notable and active region like SoCal as an example. In the same way there's a clear delineation between "regional" and "national" tournaments, I figure it would be possible to specify what qualifies a region's scene as notable and substantial enough to warrant a template. I'm not the right person to make the call of where to draw the line, but I could see it working out if done that way. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:31, 27 February 2016 (EST)
Ok then let's do this: We'll have discussion on each template (or I guess in some cases, groups of templates).
(my sig has to go somewhere so...) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:45, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:I don't like the idea of including smashers in a competitive template. The rules for getting included onto the template are going to be arbitrary in some way, and I can see non-notable people either putting themselves or their friends on frequently. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 00:40, 28 February 2016 (EST)
::Besides that, why should you be on the template for a tournament even if you didn't participate in that tournament? It just doesn't make sense. I think we can do without the template. A page called "Southern California Competitive Smash Scene" would be better imo. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 15:17, 2 March 2016 (EST)
Why are we supposed to make a template for SoCal? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 12:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
:SoCal is one of the biggest and toughest regions in '''[[Brawl]]''' and '''[[SSB4]]''', alongside the [[Tristate Area]], with the former featuring players like {{Sm|Larry Lurr}}, {{Sm|VoiD}}, and {{Sm|ZeRo}}. [[User:Penro|'''Penro''']] [[User talk:Penro|...that's all.]] [[File:PenroDarkPitHead.png|19px]] [[File:PenroZSSHead.png|19px]] 15:11, 2 March 2016 (EST)
::So is this based on notability or is SoCal an exception? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 17:24, 2 March 2016 (EST)
Can I add [[template:KTAR]] to "Templates that are safe from deletion"? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 14:28, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:can i add some templates that i would like to see added? [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 18:35, 10 March 2016 (EST)
::i will do it anyway [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 19:52, 10 March 2016 (EST)

==Templates that should be newly created==
*[[Template:Tipped Off]] {{y|16px}}

==Templates that are safe from deletion==
These templates are safe from deletion, but may need alterations to fit the higher notability standards.
*[[Template:Apex]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Zenith]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:PAX]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:RoM]] {{y|16px}} <!--RoM is short for Revival of Melee-->
*[[Template:BEAST]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:CEO]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:DVDA]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
*[[Template:ESL]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
*[[Template:EVO]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:GOML]] {{y|16px}} 
*[[Template:FC]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Forte]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:GENESIS]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:KTAR]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:MLG]] {{y|16px}}- probably could do with some cleanup.
*[[Template:Paragon]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Pound]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:TGC]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
*[[Template:The Big House]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Umebura]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Kings of Cali]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Shots Fired]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:Smash Summit]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:SKTAR]] {{y|16px}}
*[[Template:WHOBO]] {{y|16px}}

==Templates that should be deleted==
These templates may be deleted due to their scope having complete lack of notability.
*Template:Ccsc {{n|16px}}
*Template:Aussmash {{n|16px}}
*Template:Sgsc {{n|16px}}
*Template:RaF {{n|16px}}

===Discussion===
Are we least all in agreement that these should all get the boot? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 23:01, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, those four can be removed any day. I '''support''' deletion. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 00:40, 28 February 2016 (EST)
::On the fence about Australia, since it covers the scene of an entire country, but '''support deletion of all others'''. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 18:10, 28 February 2016 (EST)
:::'''Support!''' --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]]''' 17:20, 2 March 2016 (EST)

Is there anyone else who thinks that Aussmash shouls exist? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 14:18, 8 March 2016 (EST)
:I think that one should go too, in all honesty. I don't see much of a reason to keep it. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 14:19, 8 March 2016 (EST)
	You aren't logged in. While it's not a requirement to create an account, doing so makes it a lot easier to keep track of your edits and a lot harder to confuse you with someone else. If you edit without being logged in, your IP address will be recorded in the page's edit history.
	Log in	Create account
Insert common text
Signature	~~~~
Symbols	£ ¥ ° ± × ÷ € ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥
Diacritics	À Á Â Ã Ä Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ð Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ø Œ Ù Ú Û Ü Ý Þ ß à á â ã ä å æ ç è é ê ë ì í î ï ð ñ ò ó ô õ ö ø œ ù ú û ü ý þ ÿ
Wikitext	[] [[]] \| [[Category:]] [[File:]] #REDIRECT: [[]] {\| \|- \|\| \|}
Templates	{{cleanup}} {{image}} {{reflist}} {{stub}} {{d}} {{delete}}
Formatting	<!----> <br> <code></code> <gallery></gallery> <nowiki></nowiki> <ref></ref> <references/> {{#widget:YouTube\|id=}}
Substitution	<includeonly></includeonly> <noinclude></noinclude>