Editing Forum:Fox: Nerfed, Better, or Same?

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What are your opinions on Fox? Do you believe he's nerfed, better, or the same? - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 00:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I guess I'll start this off. I believe he's the same. Still good enough to be top tier, but somewhat surpassed by a few people. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 23:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

HEY! I do quite fine with Fox....I even beat Oxico's Pit with him. [[User:Zmario|Zmario]] ([[User talk:Zmario|talk]]) 23:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I haven't played Melee to a highly competetive level, but I know that some of Fox's characteristics have been nerfed. His Blaster doesn't cover as much distance and his Reflector no longer has fixed knockback useful for shine combos. His Up Smash, Uair, and Fire Fox don't seem to be nerfed very much.

Fox has improved air speed and his fair gives a floaty effect now, so that helps him. Still, I think his biggest nerf has to be the removal of L-Canceling, because Fox is one of the lightest characters in the game and he can't survive at percentages as high as a lot of characters. Still, spammable air dodging makes up for that some.

I think that Fox as a whole has been nerfed, but not to the extent that a lot of people say. He can still do well against the rest of the cast and has a very good kill move. --[[User:TStick|TStick]] ([[User talk:TStick|talk]]) 23:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

He's not nerfed but they took the biggest reason he was number 1 in the latest list,Jump canceling a shine.This provides many combo's to him and infinites but I still say he's been improved a little since he's now better at defense. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Fox was put down a lot for Brawl, but they improved a couple of things about him.  
-He no longer is outstandingly fast, when you compare him to Sonic and Captain Falcon. 
-He is not heavy in the air anymore. Though it was rather hard to control him in Melee in the air and make his moves connect, he was much faster and those who could get enough practice could learn to control his speed and do fine with it. Losing it slows him down a lot. 
-He can't shine-spike.
-His recovery in Brawl is not quite as good as it was in Melee, because Fire Fox doesn't go as far. 
-He only has a couple of dangerous KO'ing moves, mostly upward attacks. The Stale Move Negation makes them weaker. 
-His Blaster doesn't go as far, and can't be spammed because of Stale-Move Negation.
-His Reflector can't spike quite as well as before. But it can be canceled more easily. 
However, it loses the abilty to reflect after a while if you hold it on due to (you guessed it) Stale-Move Negation.
[[User:Jje92|Jje92]] ([[User talk:Jje92|talk]]) 20:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

:Um Fox can still shine spike but its just not set knockback(although once your opponent is around 40% it has the same effect)and its still devastating against fast fallers... - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 23:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

For my game, he is absolutely terrible. Not strong, too fast, I dislike him completely. [[User:Dexington|Dexington]] ([[User talk:Dexington|talk]]) 21:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Stale Move Negation has existed in all the installments, so if it didn't slow him down then, it shouldn't slow him down now. I've also found Shine Hovering to be easier, since releasing the move doesn't produce ending lag anymore. There's also this combo I've discovered where you can transition from a short-hopped B-Air into a C-Sticked D-Smash with hardly any lag. It's proving to be quite effective. Though I will say that some moves aren't as good as they were, there are also some moves that have improved. Since they cancel each other out, it makes me believe that Fox is still a top tier character. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] ([[User talk:GalaxiaD|talk]]) 00:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

In Melee Fox was my main. I reckon I could've gone pro with fox if I wanted to, but in brawl he feels seriously nerfed. He's not insanely fast, I ''liked'' that he fell at 8000mph, and all in all he doesn't feel special anymore. In my opinion he feels weighty and clumsy, same with Shiek as well. I think that Nintendo tried to balance out all the characters with Brawl, and by doing so limited a lot of the best characters' abilities. I now use Olimar or Pit. - [[User:Dancing_Daggers|Dancing Daggers]]

I personally believe that Fox was nerfed. But, in non-competitive-just-for-fun battles, I like him better. [[User:Maxiscool|Maxiscool]] ([[User talk:Maxiscool|talk]]) 20:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think he was nerfed, but not much. - [[User:Amycats2|Amycats2]] ([[User talk:Amycats2|talk]]) 20:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

He's nerfed a bit, and Falco is buffed. --[[User:Tuth|Tuth]] ([[User talk:Tuth|talk]]) 15:56, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
:I Agree. In melée Fox and Falco were both good. In brawl, falco is slightly better, and fox slightly worse. Wolf just sucks. [[User:Dr. Pain 99|Dr. Pain 99]] ([[User talk:Dr. Pain 99|talk]]) 22:46, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
::Wolf most certainly doesn't suck. Compared to his size, he has one of the best reaches in the game. His attacks are very fast, especially his bair and down smash. Wolf transitions from air to ground among the best. He has good power throughout his entire arsenal. His f-smash and u-smash work very well at racking up damage. His down smash is arguably the best down smash in the game, as it has great KO power for a d-smash, good reach, very low start-up, and even less ending lag. His bair is one of the best bairs in the game as it possesses good power, very low start-up and ending lag, and great reach. His d-throw is a powerful semi-spike that can set-up well at low percentages and is a very deadly throw on the edge at high percentages. Wolf is also a good edgeguarder, with his awesome bair and having one of the most reliable meteors in the game in his dair. He does have his problems such as being so vulnerable to chain throws and his poor recovery accuracy, but unless Wolf is fighting someone who can exploit these critical weaknesses, he will be a tough match. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 00:27, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
:::I raise my glass to this. In my opinion, Wolf is better than Fox. He's heavier, has a better blaster, has a powerful B-Side spike, and is just more powerful in general. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 01:21, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
::::Now Wolf isn't necessarily more powerful than Fox. Wolf does have more rounded power but Fox has more explosive power. Fox's u-smash is much stronger than any of Wolf's attacks. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 01:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
:::::Wolf is one of the weakest characters in the game, and he is pretty darn slow. Movewise, he has nothing that Falco doesn't have. Falco is way better than Wolf. [[User:Dr. Pain 99|Dr. Pain 99]] ([[User talk:Dr. Pain 99|talk]]) 02:48, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
::::::It seems like you just ignored my factual post and just believe your opinion to be the truth. Wolf is NOT weak and he is certainly NOT SLOW. Have you actually played him and tested his attacks? His dash speed is just as fast as Falco's and he has the fourth fastest air speed, being much faster than Falco's air speed. Wolf is more powerful than Falco is overall, possessing more attacks that can KO than Falco. His attacks are in no way slow, they're at the same speed level as Falco's are. He also possess many things Falco doesn't have. Can Falco's d-throw semi-spike and KO at 100%? Can Falco's fair KO? Can Falco's d-smash KO under 125%? Can Falco WoP opponents with his bair as efficiently as Wolf or safely edgeguard opponents below or away from the stage? Can Falco use his u-b recovery without being dead in the water to a active and competent edgeguarder? Now I do believe Falco is a better character overall than Wolf is (mostly due to Wolf's vulnerability to chain throws), but Falco is '''not''' completely superior. Now actually read my post about Wolf and don't refute my post with just "Wolf has nothing that Falco doesn't have". Posts like those will cause you to get a very low opinion of the other users on the Wiki. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 03:08, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
::::::I read your post, and I have played and tested Wolf. I don't just go around saying random crap for fun. He is slow both in dashing speed and in  attacking speed. His standard attacks are better than Falco's but Falco makes up for this in speed. The attacks you mentioned are good, but I personally don't like his special moves. I'm just not the biggest fan of the Star Fox characters and Wolf is my least favorite out of the three. [[User:Dr. Pain 99|Dr. Pain 99]] ([[User talk:Dr. Pain 99|talk]]) 03:27, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::His dashing speed is not slow as it is in the middle. Again, Wolf's attacking speed is among the fastest in the game. How can his attacking speed be slow when he possesses so many fast attacks? Wolf's attacks are on average slower than Falco's, but slightly. Wolf possesses multiple attacks that are faster than Falco's, most notably his d-smash and f-smash. Just because you don't like Wolf doesn't mean he is a slow and poor character. I personally don't believe you tested him properly as you would see that Wolf is not a slow character if you have. Now this post was better than your last but you still failed to provide actual statistics to refute my post. Now I can't make you like Wolf and I won't try to, but I can't allow you to spread false claims about a character simply because you don't like them. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 03:44, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Dr. Pain, Omega Tyrant here is one of Smashwiki's best brawl testers. He has conributed well to this wiki. I would trust him, if I were you. Anyways, he is right. While Falco may be better than Wolf, Wolf does not "suck". You may not be good with him, but I'm not very good with Sonic, for example, but I certainly don't go around saying he sucks. Perhaps you don't main him, that's fine, but Omega Tyrant has stated '''facts''', so please do not ignore him. Wolf is an OK mid tier character. He is not some really weak guy that nobody can main well (like Pichu from Melee). [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 03:59, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

::::::::Ok, maybe I shouldn't have said he sucked, but I judge characters based on whether or not I'm good with them natrually, and I'm not good with Wolf natrually. Other people may have an easier time with him. [[User:Dr. Pain 99|Dr. Pain 99]] ([[User talk:Dr. Pain 99|talk]]) 13:37, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

==Severly nerfed in speed and slightly buffed in power==
That's what I think about Fox, what do you think? [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 23:14, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
::Please start putting more effort into your forum posts.  A (sub)title and a one line OP is not good posting.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:44, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
:Fox was definitely nerfed in power. His up smash is weaker and his uair is substantially weaker, his two primary KO moves. As for speed, he's naturally slower due to Brawl's slower game play, but when compared to other characters, his speed was not nerfed. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 23:17, June 19, 2010 (UTC)
::Well, Fox's back air is stronger so that's a buff for him. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 14:00, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
:::Not quite.  Making one move better doesn't necessarily make up for everything.  Look at Jiggly.  Nuking her rest was enough that even if her back air was better she still wouldn't be great.  When we talk about Buffing and Nerfing character's, we're looking at the whole picture.  Obviously things change from game to game, but it's important to look at the character's as a whole and what moves are useful to their fighting style.  Fox's fast falling speed means that he gets more chances to hit opponents with upward moves, not side-airs.  So if his up-smash, up-tilt, and up-air are all nerfed, making his back-air slightly better hardly makes up for that as the former three are most often the more appropriate moves.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 15:36, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
::::That's very well said but I would like to say something about the bair. While  Fox's bair is slightly stronger, it has slower start-up, has much more ending lag, less reach and a smaller hitbox, and is generally more difficult to land. Overall, I would say that Fox's bair in ''Melee'' is better than his new bair in ''Brawl'', considering that the slight increase in power doesn't make up for the nerfs in its other aspects. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 15:43, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
:::::There's other buffs too like his recovery and the fact that the shine only last a few frames instead of several (unkess if u jc it) and also, he can triple short hop lazer. There's also some more but that's enough 4 now. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 14:47, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
::::::Now Fox's recovery wasn't buffed, he has an easier time recovering because of Brawl's recovery friendly physics. The frames lasting only a few frames with Reflector only matters when you try to shine gimp with it, its usefulness for combos has been completely diminished with the lost ability of jump cancelling it. It also no longer comes out on the first frame. When it comes to buffs, the only attack in his arsenal that was made better for any situation was his fair, as all five hits come out much faster and it is slightly stronger as well. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 22:04, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Fox is also heavier, which makes him harder to KO. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 17:30, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Actually, he is easier to KO. With the introduction of fall weight, his vertical endurance was severely nerfed in ''Brawl''. In ''Melee'', he outlasted even Mario and Samus vertically but in ''Brawl'', he is even outlasted by Zelda when launched vertically (assuming no DI or momentum cancelling). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 18:07, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
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