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| ::Yeah... maybe it is too early to decide just yet. But, why not start now. (Plus, I won't remember in a few years to ask again. :P) And even though Brawl is decently balanced, AzureDrake, I don't think that tiers won't come... eventually.[[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 16:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC) | | ::Yeah... maybe it is too early to decide just yet. But, why not start now. (Plus, I won't remember in a few years to ask again. :P) And even though Brawl is decently balanced, AzureDrake, I don't think that tiers won't come... eventually.[[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 16:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC) |
| :::However, top tier candidates: The Star Fox characters, Toon Link, Lucario, Ice Climbers (?). Just my three cents contributed. [[User:AzureDrake|AzureDrake]] 19:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC) | | :::However, top tier candidates: The Star Fox characters, Toon Link, Lucario, Ice Climbers (?). Just my three cents contributed. [[User:AzureDrake|AzureDrake]] 19:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC) |
| ::::Yeah, Toon Link is cool. Anyone heard of the [[Quickdraw technique|Quickdraw]]? It's sort of like the [[SHL]], and Toon Link is good at it. Starfox should definitely be at the top (as always), and Lucario... maybe. His characteristics can make him a dangerous fighter. Ice Climbers are cool, and now they have a [[Stall-Then-Fall]] aerial, so I don't think that their tier ranking will change much. Snake should be up there too, because of his 6 projectiles (don't believe me? Count them: Up Smash, Down Smash, Neutral B, Side B, Down B, and Up B (after he lets go)), and his use of the C4 to regain his Cypher (I call this the Cy-four :P) Now, who should be at the ''bottom''? That could be tough. Oh, and are all three of Pokemon Trainer's pokemon counted together? [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 19:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h | | ::::Yeah, Toon Link is cool. Anyone heard of the [[Quickdraw]]? It's sort of like the [[SHL]], and Toon Link is good at it. Starfox should definitely be at the top (as always), and Lucario... maybe. His characteristics can make him a dangerous fighter. Ice Climbers are cool, and now they have a [[Stall-Then-Fall]] aerial, so I don't think that their tier ranking will change much. Snake should be up there too, because of his 6 projectiles (don't believe me? Count them: Up Smash, Down Smash, Neutral B, Side B, Down B, and Up B (after he lets go)), and his use of the C4 to regain his Cypher (I call this the Cy-four :P) Now, who should be at the ''bottom''? That could be tough. Oh, and are all three of Pokemon Trainer's pokemon counted together? [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 19:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h |
| :::::The precedent for transforming characters has been to count them separately so I would say each pokemon should be counted separated despite the timer. Personally I think the differences between tiers will be much less dramatic than it was in Melee as there seem to have been a lot of time spent balancing the characters against each other. I will even hazard a guess that half or more of the characters may even be tournament viable. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:66.112.244.172|66.112.244.172]] ([[User talk:66.112.244.172|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/66.112.244.172|contribs]]) 01:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</small> | | :::::The precedent for transforming characters has been to count them separately so I would say each pokemon should be counted separated despite the timer. Personally I think the differences between tiers will be much less dramatic than it was in Melee as there seem to have been a lot of time spent balancing the characters against each other. I will even hazard a guess that half or more of the characters may even be tournament viable. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:66.112.244.172|66.112.244.172]] ([[User talk:66.112.244.172|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/66.112.244.172|contribs]]) 01:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)</small> |
| ::::::Still, some low tiered characters would be Bowser, Yoshi, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff (?) [[User:AzureDrake|AzureDrake]] 04:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC) | | ::::::Still, some low tiered characters would be Bowser, Yoshi, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff (?) [[User:AzureDrake|AzureDrake]] 04:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC) |
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| :You mean Buddha? You dumbass. He lived before the US even ''existed''. '''Stupid troll.''' Runer5h <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] ([[User talk:Runer5h|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runer5h|contribs]]) 15:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</small> | | :You mean Buddha? You dumbass. He lived before the US even ''existed''. '''Stupid troll.''' Runer5h <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] ([[User talk:Runer5h|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Runer5h|contribs]]) 15:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</small> |
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| Hey guys, I just read this section, and I completely agree. Ike may be slow, but with good anticipation, prediction, and timing, Ike can actually be a really good character. Clarinet Hawk and Semicolon, can we exchange friend codes? I'd like to play against you guys online sometime... =D -[[User:ACDCGAMER|ACDCGAMER]] ([[User talk:ACDCGAMER|talk]]) 04:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
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| ==Anti-Tier== | | ==Anti-Tier== |
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| 2: We are now firmly back on discussing tier rankings. [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 01:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h | | 2: We are now firmly back on discussing tier rankings. [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 01:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h |
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| | | ==Back on Topic...== |
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| ==Meta Knight top tier?== | | ==Meta Knight top tier?== |
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| :D: Cypher. The only practical use for the projectile capabilities that I have found is in recovery. If you let go as your opponent tries to attack you, the Cypher will negate the attack.<br> | | :D: Cypher. The only practical use for the projectile capabilities that I have found is in recovery. If you let go as your opponent tries to attack you, the Cypher will negate the attack.<br> |
| 2: Close Range moves. And Snake has some good ones. I'll focus on the dair, Neutral A and f-tilt, and Forward Smash. | | 2: Close Range moves. And Snake has some good ones. I'll focus on the dair, Neutral A and f-tilt, and Forward Smash. |
| :A: Neutral A and F-Tilt. Snake's neutral A is useful for hitting opponents into mines or the Up Smash. Meanwhile, the F-Tilt has such a good [[Jab Fake]] that it has its own name: the Knee Lock. | | :A: Neutral A and F-Tilt. Snake's neutral A is useful for hitting opponents into mines or the Up Smash. Meanwhile, the F-Tilt has such a good [[Jab Fake]] that it has its own name: the [[Knee Lock]]. |
| :B: Forward Smash. Uncharged, it does 23 damage. ''WOW''. It is an awesome kill move. However, it is pretty slow - use it after your opponent does a laggy attack. | | :B: Forward Smash. Uncharged, it does 23 damage. ''WOW''. It is an awesome kill move. However, it is pretty slow - use it after your opponent does a laggy attack. |
| :C: Dair. It is awesome. 4 downwards kicks, the last of which has killing power. When next to your opponent, Short Hop and use it. It does a lot of damage if all hits connect. | | :C: Dair. It is awesome. 4 downwards kicks, the last of which has killing power. When next to your opponent, Short Hop and use it. It does a lot of damage if all hits connect. |
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| LOL. Nice "Superman Returns" reference. Anyway, I get it now that items can still spawn when items are turned off. I just don't play with DDD much, and when I do, he doesn't ever spawn a capsule, though I have seen the computer do it. Still, it's because of his size and slowness that he'll end up in the middle tier, and I think we can all agree on that. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] 19:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC) | | LOL. Nice "Superman Returns" reference. Anyway, I get it now that items can still spawn when items are turned off. I just don't play with DDD much, and when I do, he doesn't ever spawn a capsule, though I have seen the computer do it. Still, it's because of his size and slowness that he'll end up in the middle tier, and I think we can all agree on that. - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] 19:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC) |
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| Well, it should be some kind of upper middler tier.--[[User:Jigglypuff is God|Jigglypuff is God]] 14:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC) | | Well, it should be some kind of upper middler tier.--[[User:Jigglypuff is God|Jigglypuff is God]] 14:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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| Yea, he's a good character, and his up tilt has a good deal of knockback (in some cases, it's knockback is even stronger then his Up smash XD) and he can still spawn items if the item frequency is set to none or low. I'd place him at top tier, but only in the hands ofpeople who are skilled with him. BTW, anyone who spawns an attack like thunder, or Ike's Up B is a cheap player. (You know when he's cheap when you hear thunder a second time after being attacked) [[User:Learner4|Learner4]] ([[User talk:Learner4|talk]]) 20:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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| :First of all, tier's ''always'' assume skilled players. Secondly, an attack being cheep doesn't mean a thing in competitive play. If it helps you win, it helps you win. Period. As for Dedede, you barely give a good reason for him to be top tier. Sure he can spawn items, but the chance of that is around 1%. As for his up-tilt, many characters have great up tilts. That alone doesn't make them a top tier character. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
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| ==Olimar==
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| You can all tell that Olimar is my favorite, and I think he is good. He has versatile projectiles, can camp really well, has some surprisingly good Super Armor, and disjointed hitboxes from his Pikmin. The two main arguments against him are "He is weak without Pikmin" and "He can be edgehogged". These are true, but you can ameliorate both.<br>
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| #"Weak without Pikmin". The obvious solution is to have your Pikmin with you always. How?
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| ##Pikmin Order. It is one of Olimar's most important moves. It can call back Pikmin, even while they are latched onto someone. If all your Pikmin are present, it reorders them, which is vital to avoiding edgehoggage - you'll see why. (PO also gives Super Armor.)
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| ##Pikmin Pluck. If you notice that you are a couple of Pikmin short, or hear a Pikmin give a death cry, pluck. It is fast, so just get onto the ground and use it. Just don't do it if you are right next to an edge and facing away from it; they all fall off (thus making you feel stupid).
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| #"Easily edgehogged". Not if you do this:
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| ##Get a Purple Pikmin first in your line-up. Use Pikmin Order to do this. Congratulations! You now can blast opponents off the edge and get on yourself.
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| ##Chuck a Pikmin at the hogger. They will often get right off the edge instinctively to avoid the Pikmin or get it off. Free edge!<br>
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| [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 22:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
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| OK, you make some good points about how to avoid Olimar's weaknessess, but they don't work as consistently as you claim they do. First of all, Olimar has to be on the ground to pluck Pikmin. Here's the catch, when he's most vulnerable without them is when he's in the air. And if you get hit, you lose Pikmin. So most times you get hit off the stage, your Pikmin are not all going to be with you. As far as the edgehogging goes, your strategy is highly conditional and relies partially on your opponents inexperience. First, it's dependent on you having a purple Pikmin first in your line up. This in and of itself requires a fair amount of luck that you have the purple Pikmin and it is first in your lineup. Of course, if you alwasy go around with a purple Pikmin as your first one, you'll lose range and become predictable. Secondly, the idea of hitting the opponent with the purple Pikmin to blast the opponent off the ledge won't work on a good edgehogger because they will exploit the invincibility frames of a ledge grab. As far as throwing Pikmin at your opponent is concerned, any good play will trade %10 damage for a sure kill any day. Remember that when we're discussing tiers we're talking about the highest levels of play. These players aren't going to make poor instinctual reactions, but are going to be constantly going through the options of how best to kill their opponent. Olimar is not a bad character (although I am not a good Olimar player myself), but he does suffer from some very easily exploited weaknesses. I'd put him in maybe the top 15 characters, but not the top tier. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] 16:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
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| I ''am'' an Olimar player, and I haven't noticed these problems, but I still see your point. You're right. I never really expected to see him in, say, the top 5, but I think he is high up there. [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
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| Maybe Middle top is where he should be, he can deal tons of damage in such quick timing (or short notice if you want a more used form), and properly skilled Olimar players will know when to whistle his or her pikmin after throwing them. The ones who arn't AS skilled as profesionals MAY try to continuously throw them (it doesn't mean they will). Other good points on Olimar are his defensive points, Certain pikmin are immune from damage from certain attacks (E.G. Yellow are immune to electric attacks, so if you throw one in front of the path of a Charge Shot, the pikmin will only take the knockback not the damage, making the move BASICALLY useless (the yellow might be sent flying off the map). His other good attributes (not sure if thats the word) are the usefulness of his tilts, even when without pikmin, because his tilts+mid air attack have decent knockback for tilts. (Up tilt+mid air attack do pretty good damage) His final smash is: . . . Powerful! What else do you want? His midair attacks WITH pikmin have great knock back, usually it takes two to three mid air attacks (with pikmin that can deal good knockback) to KO an oppoent by forcing him to lose all his jumps, and of course, if repetedly forcing him off the stage doesn't work, then you can always try his d-air (miDAIR :D [just noticed that]) if potitioned corectly, then it makes for a great spike, guaranteeing a KO. Also On some stages, his Up B can reach through floors (6 pikmin are used), like on Spear Pillar (although I frown upon using it), you stand in the cavern, jump, then you use it, the pikmin will extend like normal, and for a brief moment, they will be able to damage your opponents (if they are standing on the higher floor at the right spot) before the game moves them like if they hit a wall (or ceiling). His grab has good range and little lag. However, despite all these good abilities of Olimar, he still is Middle Top teir for me. [[User:Learner4|Learner4]] ([[User talk:Learner4|talk]]) 13:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
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| ==Slow characters DO NOT SUCK==
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| You guys need to pull your heads out of you-know-where and realize SPEED DOESN'T MATTER AS MUCH AS IT ID IN MELEE. I can get my butt kicked with Sheik (which I am good with by the way) against Ike who just-so-happens to be one of the slowest characters in the game. For ex: higher in the page, someone claimed Dedede is top-tier worthy. Someone replied "omg slow low tier!!!!!!!!!!" ok I'm exaggerating, but that is the way people think. Also, ya know Fox? Yeah. He was top-tier in Melee. But now, he sucks pretty much. He can't kill until very high percentages, his usmash was weakened, shine has variable knockback now, his uair also sucks, etc. Speed doesn't automatically make a character good. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:66.223.169.119|66.223.169.119]] ([[User talk:66.223.169.119|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/66.223.169.119|contribs]]) 20:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)</small>
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| 1. You're right. As balanced as the characters are this time around, I'd have to say that speedy characters and slow characters alike have their own advantages. Forming a tier list will be harder this time around. 2. This is, what, the 100th post I've seen that has put down Fox? He can SHTL now! Back in Melee, he could only SHDL. His Up Smash is only ''slightly'' nerfed. It can still kill around 80% damage or so. His Up Aerial is also still an effective killing move that can juggle easily. Also, Shine Hovering returns, and can still be used to stall. Though there are a few characters now that I believe have surpassed him, he'll still make high tier. Give Fox a chance! - [[User:GalaxiaD|GalaxiaD]] 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
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| No one ever said that speed inherently makes one character better than another. But speed is a definite advantage. Being slow is a disadvantage that can be made up for, but it must be considered. Also, when we talk about speed, it's not just the running speed. We're also considering speed of attacks, lag time, and the like. All of these factor into how a character plays. If two characters were exactly the same except for speed, the faster one would be better. This is of course never the case with characters. You will never hear me say that a character is bad simply because of their lack of speed. But if they do not compensate for that speed in other areas, they will not be top tier. Also, fast does not inherently equal good. What I'm saying is that there is no one characteristic that makes a character top tier, but there are certain inherent advantages and disadvantages to traits. Speed is an advantage. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] 23:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
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| This is what I think are the criteria for being top tier (this is a long list):
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| *Attack Strength
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| *Attack Speed
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| *Attack Lag
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| *Combo/Juggle ability
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| *Kill ability
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| *Direction of Knockback
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| *Knockback resistance
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| *Falling Speed
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| *Height/horizontal distance of Up-B
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| *Height/Horizontal distance of alternate recovery moves
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| *Number of projectiles
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| *Usefulness of projectiles
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| *Ability to reflect projectiles
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| *Grab Range
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| *Chainthrow ability
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| *Running Speed
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| *Jump height
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| *Total Metagame
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| *Other (like Gliding, Floating, etc.)<br>
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| See? There is a '''''huge''''' list of things to consider for being top tier. Speed is only one. However, it is fairly important. [[User:Runer5h|Runer5h]] 20:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
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