Forum:Attempt to fix the Notable Players sections number 2: Difference between revisions

Passing proposal, please don't start editing the sections yet until I put the project page up.
(Passing proposal, please don't start editing the sections yet until I put the project page up.)
 
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{{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
{{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
{{Proposal}}
{{proposal|passed}}


The wiki has known this to be a problem for several years now, yet the notable players sections has continue to persist in being bloated in the character articles for every game (except for Brawl's, guess that's one upside of few people still caring about that game), and it has become quite the overwhelming problem to manage. These sections were originally made with the intention of noting each characters' "most historically significant players", not as a place to throw every pretty noteworthy player on there, however this clearly was not achieved. I blame a part of this for how poorly this idea is communicated through the title of these sections (you just need to be considered "notable" to have an article at all, how does that differ from being "notable" for these sections?), the fact the guidelines for these sections are buried in our [[SW:NOTE#Notable player guidelines|general notability policy page]] and thus most random part-time editors responsible for the bloat will never see it, and the lack of a strict limit that allows the "line" for what's acceptable to be pushed farther and farther. So I propose implementing the following:
The wiki has known this to be a problem for several years now, yet the notable players sections has continue to persist in being bloated in the character articles for every game (except for Brawl's, guess that's one upside of few people still caring about that game), and it has become quite the overwhelming problem to manage. These sections were originally made with the intention of noting each characters' "most historically significant players", not as a place to throw every pretty noteworthy player on there, however this clearly was not achieved. I blame a part of this for how poorly this idea is communicated through the title of these sections (you just need to be considered "notable" to have an article at all, how does that differ from being "notable" for these sections?), the fact the guidelines for these sections are buried in our [[SW:NOTE#Notable player guidelines|general notability policy page]] and thus most random part-time editors responsible for the bloat will never see it, and the lack of a strict limit that allows the "line" for what's acceptable to be pushed farther and farther. So I propose implementing the following:
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# Sounds good to me. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 15:49, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
# Sounds good to me. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 15:49, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
#'''I like most of it'''. Though I'm still somewhat wary on the Wi-Fi results I'm honestly not too against adding in notable online players to the section after discussion on Discord. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:13, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
#'''I like most of it'''. Though I'm still somewhat wary on the Wi-Fi results I'm honestly not too against adding in notable online players to the section after discussion on Discord. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:13, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
#'''I like a lot of these suggestions'''. A hard limit is fine, but obviously for certain characters with especially strong player bases, a rise from 10 may be necessary (as was mentioned for Melee Fox). I'm okay with online results getting a bit more attention as well, at least for Melee (mainly due to having very good online and top players taking it more seriously). Ultimate is more iffy for me, but it is hard to ignore the fact that the game has had a year of (primarily) online results. [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 18:49, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
#Everything sounds good. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 16:06, March 29, 2021 (EDT)
#I'm late and I've got nothing new to add, but I figured I'd voice my support here before adding my thoughts to the rename vote at the bottom. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''NEW'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''AMIIBO TRAINER!!!'''</span>]] [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:37, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
#'''Support''': Certainly a vast improvement over the other one about American bias. I was iffy on the hard limit at first, but looking at it more 10 is more than enough notable players to list in each page. And yes finally adding online players, I agree we shouldn't pretend the online era doesn't exist. [[File:Ness EB Sprite.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="gold">the EarthBoundian.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="red">(Fuzzy pickles!)</font>]]''' 02:31, June 14, 2021 (EDT)


===Oppose===
===Oppose===
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I brought this up on the Discord earlier. In an effort to appease both sides of the clone argument, why not just create specific templates that combine both characters' players while denoting which of them they use through head icons. I've created a mockup of this [[User:SenorMexicano/Notable player concept|here]]. Most if not all of the community sees most clones as the same character with the exceptions of certain pairs like Roy and Chrom. I don't understand why we'd go out of our way to separate them. Separating players would have the potential to create a very lopsided list of players in cases where a character is favored upon by higher tier players over the other. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 09:27, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
I brought this up on the Discord earlier. In an effort to appease both sides of the clone argument, why not just create specific templates that combine both characters' players while denoting which of them they use through head icons. I've created a mockup of this [[User:SenorMexicano/Notable player concept|here]]. Most if not all of the community sees most clones as the same character with the exceptions of certain pairs like Roy and Chrom. I don't understand why we'd go out of our way to separate them. Separating players would have the potential to create a very lopsided list of players in cases where a character is favored upon by higher tier players over the other. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 09:27, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
:I feel like this is the best compromise and I honestly like that idea as well. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:06, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
:I feel like this is the best compromise and I honestly like that idea as well. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 16:06, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
:I'm all for doing that, it combines the lists and lets them appear on both pages without the hassle of having to edit both pages whenever an update to the list is made. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:01, March 25, 2021 (EDT)
Bump. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:31, March 27, 2021 (EDT)
Bump again, I want to get this passed by the end of the week. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:06, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
At this point I'm pretty sure this proposal will pass, so I'm wondering how we should handle the cleanup. It's very clear that we need more than one person to clean up the infoboxes but at the same time making a post on every single character talk page is unnecessary. Another option is Discord but I believe most of the explanation should still be on the wiki so other users could see why we chose those players. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:55, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
:I've seen other wikis do "proejcts" for cleanup and this wiki also has [[SmashWiki:Project]] (which haven't really been used since 2015). Perhaps a project page could be used for this? --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 19:04, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
:I think it's simply to just let people handle characters themselves as they come across them, where then anyone that objects to any of the choices can be discussed, and I plan to first go to which characters I will give an automatic default limit beyond the 10 upon the official implementation (while also pruning them in the process). I like Canvas' idea and will go make a project page too where it can be organized on which characters have been addressed and which still need to be brought in line with the new policy (which will also make for easy sitenotice linking). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:32, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
::We should set up the editing notice first. I was thinking of something like "This section has a #-player limit. If you have any objections, please read SW:SMASHER first before bringing it to the talk page". [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:38, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
:I personally prefer the project idea in conjuction with talk page. I feel like character limits will lead to some disagreements (most of which will be easily resolved). Given that a project will lead these to be tackled and agreed upon more quickly. I feel like the alternative where users tackle their own is more prone to causing more disagreements and less consensus [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 19:44, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
::There's 209 of these sections to go through (after merging the proposed echoes and discounting the DLC characters too young to have one), trying to force discussion on all of these before anyone can touch them is just going to really slow this process down to a crawl. Let people handle them as they see fit (with maybe some discussion in the discord if they want to), and then discuss any problems afterward on talk pages, an efficient process is better than an overly bureaucratic process that makes this process take much longer to complete than it needs to. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:08, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
After a lot of procrastination, I'm finally passing this and getting the process formally started. I'll ask that no one touch any of these sections yet until the official project page is up, which I'm working on right now. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:43, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
==Vote on what to rename the "Notable players" sections==
Well it seems this proposal is definitively passing, but before I do officially pass it and start the process for it, lets first vote on what we'll actually name these sections. I'll keep this up for 72 hours or so, and the most supported option will be what we go with: I have two right now, if you have any suggestions, you can suggest so in the comment section and I'll add it as another vote option unless I strongly object to it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:52, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
===Vote for "Most notable players"===
===Vote for "Most historically significant players"===
# '''Support'''. I believe that this best reflects the original policy regarding notable player sections, and also deters people attempting to get on the lists for egocentric purposes. I'm not sure if the "most" part is necessary, or whether it's grammatically correct, but it's not harmful nor does it really change my viewpoint. I don't think "most notable" would really change the current status quo. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 20:58, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
#Though I feel like this is too long, it's still the most accurate one I can think of. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:02, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
#Doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well as the other one, but I feel like this gets the point across better than the other one. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Springing Rurouni'''</span>]] 21:06, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
#Agree with my co-supporters - this title is excruciatingly ugly, but it's probably the best we'll ever get. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''NEW'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''AMIIBO TRAINER!!!'''</span>]] [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:37, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
#<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 22:56, April 5, 2021 (EDT)
# —-[[User:Lattie|Lattie]] ([[User talk:Lattie|talk]]) 20:06, April 8, 2021 (EDT)
# '''Support'''. I feel like the "Most" part should definitely be cut off. Seems like this would alleviate the major issue most people supporting it have, namely it being too long/wordy. "Historically significant players" gets the point across nicely. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 05:22, April 11, 2021 (EDT)
===Comments===
Bump, vote on this if you haven't already. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:19, April 8, 2021 (EDT)