Talk:Clone/Archive 4: Difference between revisions

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Omega Tyrant

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 == Dr. Mario and Mario in SSB4 ==
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 '''[[User:The Master Hand|<span style="color:#808080;">The Master Hand</span>]]'''—'''''[[User talk:The Master Hand|<span style="color:#C0C0C0;">It's time.</span>]]''''' [[File:MasterHandSig.jpg|25px]] 11:53, 2 December 2014 (EST)
 :Going off of [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity#SSBB|what Toomai says]], Luigi has around 14 out of 23 moves shared. 14 divided by 23 is around 59%. Because 59 is above half but still below 75 (which I think any clone who's above that counts as a clone), Luigi is therefore a semi-clone. Nothing more. [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 12:39, 2 December 2014 (EST)
+::Luigi was recently removed from the Smash Ult section as not being even a semi-clone. Is there a community consensus on that? [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 09:14, 23 November 2018 (EST)
 == Roy (SSB4) more of a semi-clone? ==
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 Since now they've officially given the clones a name (Echo Fighters), shouldn't we change the page's name to the official name (Echo Fighters) and make the previous name (clones) a redirect? --[[User:Metalex123|Metalex123]] ([[User talk:Metalex123|talk]]) 21:03, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
 :Read 5 sections up <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 21:07, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
+Yes [[User:Crocodile Dippy 2|Crocodile Dippy 2]] ([[User talk:Crocodile Dippy 2|talk]]) 10:53, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 ==Isabelle==
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 I think at this point we need a new name for characters like Wolf and Isabelle (Maybe Luigi too) where they are very obviously derived from another character but have so many changes that they can't be called a clone. (not without all of Smashwiki trying to bite your head off for it anyway.) [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 07:58, 17 September 2018 (EDT)
+Isabelle can’t really be considered a semi clone. She shares less moves with Villager than entirely unique moves that have radically different functions. Her physics are highly likely to be altered too considering that’s part of balancing a character fully. For comparison, all 4 special moves for Wolf have similar operation methods to Fox. Luigi also shares a lot of frame data with Mario. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 04:24, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
+:'Semi-clone is a term used for characters who share some of their moveset with another character, with some similarity in physics, but have enough differentiating moves and characteristics that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate.'
+:She has 6-7 shared moves, more than you list for Wolf, and we list other highly diverging characters already. I also don't know why you'd expect their physics to significantly diverge, but either way it's speculative. I think she should remain on the list, but moreover I think the edit warring over her inclusion and removal needs to stop. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 06:09, 24 September 2018 (EDIT)
+Isabelle’s shared moves are Grab (likely different properties), Dash Attack (most likely functions differently), Pocket (most likely a different formula) . The Final Smash has a similar animation but the building is clearly different and it has a larger explosion radius. Everything else is so drastically different in basic function and frame data even at a low level of play, whilst if you play Fox you can vaguely get a feel for Wolf. Also, the reason why I expect Villager and Isabelle’s physics to diverge is due to balancing out her moveset and how functionally different they are, even more so than the other semi clones. If Wolf isn’t  listed, Isabelle shouldn’t either. A footnote about her shared moves can be added. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 11:53, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
+:... and now the page is protected. [[User:Unowninator|¿¡Unowninator?!]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 16:51, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 == Memoryman3 isn't right about Echo Fighters in Ultimate. ==
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 It is unknown if this definition fully applies to all Echo Fighters, but MM3 thinks otherwise (heck, he even thinks [[Richter (SSBU)|Richter]], plays identically to [[Simon (SSBU)|Simon]], based off Japanese PR-speak info on Richter and MM3's claim that the English info is a mistranslation), and tries to use this definition as an excuse to justify Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu not being Echoes (he falsely labels them as semi-clones, despite those characters possessing fewer differences than the likes of Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Lucas and Toon Link in ''Smash 4'') when it is most likely due to them being ''Melee'' veterans. In fact, Memoryman3's interpretation of the definition prevents any of the ''Melee'' clones in their initial appearances (possibly barring Dr. Mario due to his near-identical physics) from being classified as Echo Fighters! Physics isn't what makes a clone a clone rather than a semi-clone, it's ''moveset similarity''.
-Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at [[User:Zakawer2/Clone]]) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
+Therefore, I demand that my edits (found at User:Zakawer2/Clone) be applied to this article (and full protection be maintained as well). [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 13:50, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 :First, it is inappropriate to "demand" that edits be made to any mainspace content. The wiki is a community-driven, collaborative effort to document the game, and changes to articles should be based on editors' consensus. Strong feelings are not a substitute for that consensus. It is also inappropriate to suggest a page deserves protection due to disagreement with another user, particularly permanent protection; page protection is generally only suitable for high-visibility pages that are prone to vandalism, or to resolve temporary issues.
 :Second, looking at the difference between yours and Memoryman3's versions ([https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Clone&type=revision&diff=1091762&oldid=1091513 seen here]), I am somewhat confused as to what you are arguing for. In general, I am in favor of his edit; the descriptions of characters are better worded, less prone to bias, and contain fewer grammatical mistakes. Could you provide some clarity as to which parts specifically you are objecting to? &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 15:10, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 ::I am mainly objecting to the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' section. He keeps on using that Echo Fighter definition from a Japanese press release that wasn't even written by Sakurai or someone directly involved in the game's development process, and claims that Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu's non-adherence to this definition is why they're not Echo Fighters. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 16:00, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
+:::In the absence of further evidence, I think we should stick with what is officially confirmed, whether it's allegedly been written by a low-level employee or not. It was also my understanding that those designations exist in game, making them the definitive answer, but I could be mistaken on that point. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 19:31, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
+== Only two types of Clones ==
+Just a friendly observation to hopefully reduce arguments. From a production standpoint there seem to be really only two kinds of clones.
+* TYPE 1. Echoes, originally known as "model change" characters, share enough attributes with their parent fighter such that they're only balanced against them until they feel about equally viable pre-release.  You save both a lot of development time, and a lot of playtest time (i.e. it would take ~55x the amount of playtest time for an unique fighter compared to an echo in 4. and ~70x the playtest time in Ultimate. They really are icing on the cake after the game is finished and not "stealing slots." You'd have to give the entire roster an echo to equal adding one unique newcomer)
+** This applies to Dr. Mario explicitly in Smash 4 (and is why he's in the echo fighter corner on the CSS), but is likely one of the core philosophies behind echo fighters that was carried forward (even if Doc stopped being an echo in Ultimate due to having even more differences). Source: https://smashboards.com/threads/sakurai-on-mii-fighters-dr-mario-and-duck-hunt.385210/
+* TYPE 2. Characters that are "based on" another fighter to start, but end up being completely unique characters on the roster. i.e. you start with a certain fighter as a base, and tweak their moves, animations, proportions, attributes etc so much that they are unique enough to be tested against the rest of the roster. So you've saved some development time by using a parent(maybe a lot, maybe only a little depending), but have essentially a unique character and don't save any playtest time. These character are Clones.
+** This applies expressly to Isabelle, meaning it likely applies to everyone from Ultimate!Dr. Mario to Wolf. Source: http://www.japanesenintendo.com/post/178486295859
+Pretty much "has a parent and only measured against their parent (and labeled as an echo)" and "has a parent but different enough to be measured against everyone."
+Anything else is pure fan community stuff, and mostly arbitrary spectrums and thresholds of how many animations/moves/attributes are different from the parent, and headcanon about which differences matter more. Like it probably doesn't matter that Chrom has a different Up-Special from Roy if he was only tested to be about equal to Roy. And it probably doesn't matter that Wolf is more different to Fox than Falco if they were both tested against the entire roster. And it probably doesn't matter that we call the melee clones Full Clones, and the Brawl Clones Semi-Clones if in both cases all characters were tested against all other characters.
+That's why Echos are actually 'new concept' that started as glorified costumes in Smash 4, and are legitimately distinct from all previous or future non-echo clones.
+And why Doc really should be Echo corner in Smash 4, and shouldn't have an epsilon in Ultimate. [[User:Furballcan|Furballcan]] ([[User talk:Furballcan|talk]]) 01:54, 27 September 2018 (EDT)
+Yes I agree. Dr Mario is as much as a semi clone as someone like Falco or Roy because of this. Although I am hesitant to call Isabelle a semi clone because of her different frame and animations all being unique. With just a few moves borrowed. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:28, 27 September 2018 (EDT)
+In the column Sakurai uses Isabelle as an example stating that she's based off of Villager. [[User:Furballcan|Furballcan]] ([[User talk:Furballcan|talk]]) 00:47, 28 September 2018 (EDT)
+I think he meant that some of Isabelle's moves look similar to Villager's, like the Pocket and Balloon Trip. So that made people think she's an Echo. However, with 100+ unique animations, a different skeleton/body frame, moves such as the Fishing Rod being completely new to Smash in terms of operation, and her frame-data not being reminiscent on Villager's at all, she doesn't seem like a semi-clone at all. Someone like Wolf is much closer. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 06:25, 28 September 2018 (EDT)
+:@MM3: On one hand, Sakurai did say Wolf was similar enough to Fox to make moveset creation easier, and was why Wolf was chosen over Krystal. On the other, Isabelle shares more with Villager than Wolf does with Fox, so I fail to see your logic. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 08:10, 28 September 2018 (EDT)
+All four of Wolf's specials are directly based off Fox's. Two of Isabelle's specials are completely different and one of them seems to have much different properties AND functionality. Her frame-data doesn't resemble the Villager's at all.  Not to mention that Wolf has a similar body frame to Fox and in Brawl, shared all of the non attack animations except for the idle. Isabelle shares none of the animations or a body frame with Villager. She likely took as much work (if not more) and man hours as someone like K Rool or Ridley.
+I propose that Isabelle gets taken off the semi-clones list and instead we put a footnote ala Wolf (in fact I would argue Wolf should be in the semi clone table instead of Isabelle). --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 11:10, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
+There are only two tiers of clones. A fighter with a parent fighter they are based off of, but are different enough to be balanced against the whole roster (every full/semi/pseudo clone from Ultimate!Dr. Mario - Wolf/Isabelle). A fighter with a parent fighter and they are only balanced against their parent fighter (everyone labeled as an echo) Thats it. By calling someone a clone you're not saying they're exactly the same. You're saying that the clearly have a parent fighter.  There's a lot a variance in the first type, but they are all ultimately unique characters that have a direct parent. Even if some are more distinct from that parent than others. [[User:Furballcan|Furballcan]] ([[User talk:Furballcan|talk]]) 03:06, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
+== Ganondorf in Ultimate ==
+I propose that Ganondorf's section in the semi-clone category for Ultimate be removed simply because he's too different to Captain Falcon at this point to be considered one. Now you can make the argument that they do share quite a bit of attacks, but I'll have to counter this by stating that the only two attacks that are exclusive between them are only back aerial and down special. Every other seemingly shared move is also shared by at least one other character, whether old or new, and regardless of directional input.
+Their neutral aerials are shared by Zero Suit Samus and Mii Brawler, who both have the similar animation and functionality tied to their forward aerials.
+Their up aerials are shared in either animation or function by a plethora of characters.
+Their down aerials, in animation or function, are shared with Rosalina and King K. Rool.
+Even if you want to disregard the argument above, there's still the fact that the two characters, while sharing similar animations on multiple attacks, just have too many different properties to them to be considered a copy of each other's moves. My point is that two moves that are shared exclusively between two fighters ''does not'' make for a semi-clone categorization. The two characters themselves do not have that much in common anymore, so it's simply mind-boggling why Ganondorf is still considered a semi-clone at this point, which is why I'm asking to rescind his placement as one in the first place. [[User:Enigma|Enigma]] ([[User talk:Enigma|talk]]) 20:11, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
+:I oppose removing it until the actual game is out but I would like a new different to be added. Namely that Captain Falcon has a new forward Smash, adding a difference. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 19:52, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
+== Why is this fully protected?! ==
+I don't want to be rude or anything but why the hell is the page fully protected for edit warring? I heard of semi protecting for edit warring, but why fully protect it?! [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:Corrin Fan|Corrin Fan]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 03:48, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+:Because the people who were edit-warring are autoconfirmed users, and semi-protecting would not have solved the problem. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 06:49, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+::I understand now, but why that long? It even goes to the day before Christmas. Usually edit wars have a cooldown at a few days, maybe a month at most. [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:Corrin Fan|Corrin Fan]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 07:24, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+:::Because (and trust me on this) the edit war will continue if it ends before then, and will only stop once ''Ultimate'' comes out. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Rurouni'''</span>]] 08:19, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+::::Got it, but why extended it after the release date? Surely people would stop on December 7th. [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:Corrin Fan|Corrin Fan]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 08:42, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+:::::To be honest I'm not actually sure the edit warring will stop after release. I think there either (1) needs to be some discussion about what standards the wiki wants to use to define clones/semiclones/echo fighters, or (2) we need to just parrot what a reliable Smash source says if they do, because there are still frequent discussions about individual characters that are unlikely to be settled even once the game is out. That said I do think protection could expire a little closer to the release date (would still leave a few days' buffer, personally). &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 10:53, 15 October 2018 (EDT)
+Does this still need to be protected? I was about to add Ken and a trivia fact, but I can't because of it. [[User:Unowninator|¿¡Unowninator?!]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 15:52, 1 November 2018 (EDT)
+== Ken ==
+The Direct just confirmed [[Ken Masters]] is joining Smash as Ryu's echo. Someone add him! [[User:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">infernape]][[User talk:infernape612|<span style="color:orange">612</span>]]</span> 11:59, 1 November 2018 (EDT)