Forum:Zeldasmash's new SSBM Tier List: Difference between revisions

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{{Forumheader|Melee Talk}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
{{Forumheader|Melee Talk}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->


This is Zeldasmash's and Doc King's opinions for the upcoming 10th SSBM Tier List. Doc King has recently discovered that the MBR is going to make a new and updated tier list [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwhAke296vc on a YouTube video.]So we would like you all to give your full opinions on the tier list, where someone should be, etc.<center>
This is Zeldasmash's opinion for the upcoming 10th SSBM Tier List. Doc King has recently discovered that the MBR is going to make a new and updated tier list [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwhAke296vc on a YouTube video.]So he would like you all to give your full opinions for the upcoming tier list!
{|class="wikitable" align="center" style="text-align:center"
{|class="wikitable" align="center" style="text-align:center"
!colspan="16"|10th [[SSBM]] Tiers
!colspan="16"|10th [[SSBM]] Tiers
|-
|-
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!colspan="4" style="background-color:#ffbfbf"|Top Tier
!colspan="4" style="background-color:#ffbfbf"|Top Tier
!colspan="6" style="background-color:#ffdfbf"|High Tier
!colspan="5" style="background-color:#ffdfbf"|High Tier
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
|-
|-
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
Line 26: Line 21:
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|8
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|8
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|9
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|9
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|10
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
|-
|-
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[File:FoxIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Fox (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconFox.png|40px|link=Fox (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[File:SheikIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Sheik (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconFalco.png|40px|link=Falco (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[File:FalcoIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Falco (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconSheik.png|40px|link=Sheik (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[File:MarthIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Marth (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ff7f7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconMarth.png|40px|link=Marth (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[File:CaptainFalconIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Captain Falcon (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconCaptainFalcon.png|40px|link=Captain Falcon (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[File:SamusIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Samus (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconSamus.png|40px|link=Samus (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[File:DrMarioIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Dr. Mario (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconDoc.png|40px|link=Dr.Mario (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[File:GanondorfIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Ganondorf (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconGanondorf.png|40px|link=Ganondorf (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[File:LinkIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Link (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconLink.png|40px|link=Link (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffbf7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconMewtwo.png|40px|link=Mewtwo (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
|-
|-
!colspan="7" style="background-color:#ffffbf"|Middle Tier
!colspan="8" style="background-color:#ffffbf"|Middle Tier
!colspan="5" style="background-color:#bfffbf"|Low Tier
!colspan="5" style="background-color:#bfffbf"|Low Tier
!colspan="5" style="background-color:#bfbfff"|Bottom Tier
|-
|-
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|10
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|11
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|11
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|12
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|12
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|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|21
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|21
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|22
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|22
|-
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:MewtwoIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Mewtwo (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:MarioIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Mario (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:IceClimbersIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Ice Climbers (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:PeachIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Peach (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:JigglypuffIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Jigglypuff (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:RoyIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Roy (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:DonkeyKongIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Donkey Kong (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[File:YoungLinkIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Young Link (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[File:MrGame&WatchIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Mr. Game & Watch (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[File:LuigiIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Luigi (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[File:ZeldaIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Zelda (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[File:YoshiIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Yoshi (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[File:PikachuIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Pikachu (SSBM)]]
|-
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!colspan="4" style="background-color:#bfbfff"|Bottom Tier
|-
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|23
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|23
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|24
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|24
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|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|26
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|26
|-
|-
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconIceClimbers.png|40px|link=Ice Climbers (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconDK.png|40px|link=Donkey Kong (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconRoy.png|40px|link=Roy (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconMario.png|40px|link=Mario (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconJigglypuff.png|40px|link=Jigglypuff (SSBM)]]
!&nbsp;
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconLuigi.png|40px|link=Luigi (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[File:NessIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Ness (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#ffff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconYoungLink.png|40px|link=Young Link (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[File:KirbyIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Kirby (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconZelda.png|40px|link=Zelda (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[File:BowserIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Bowser (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconGAW.png|40px|link=Mr. Game & Watch (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[File:PichuIcon(SSBM).png|40px|link=Pichu (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconYoshi.png|40px|link=Yoshi (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconPikachu.png|40px|link=Pikachu (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7fff7f"|[[Image:SSBMIconNess.png|40px|link=Ness (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[Image:SSBMIconKirby.png|40px|link=Kirby (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[Image:SSBMIconPichu.png|40px|link=Pichu (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[Image:SSBMIconBowser.png|40px|link=Bowser (SSBM)]]
|style="background-color:#7f7fff"|[[Image:SSBMIconPeach.png|40px|link=Peach (SSBM)]]
|}</center>
|}</center>
==Videos==
==Videos==
Here are some videos that you can look at to make up your mind about the new tier list! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 01:11, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
Here are some videos that you can look at to make up your mind about the new tier list! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 01:11, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taj (Mewtwo) vs Lucky (Falco) Another Mewtwo goes higher video]


[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LV0k4C_PD4 DK higher on the tier list]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LV0k4C_PD4 DK higher on the tier list]
Line 96: Line 101:


[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2JisqDkxhw&feature=related Mewtwo way higher on the tier list]
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2JisqDkxhw&feature=related Mewtwo way higher on the tier list]
</center>
 
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jL4DYuzf_w Mario higher on the tier list]


==Are you truly serious and unbiased about these two?==
==Are you truly serious and unbiased about these two?==
Line 113: Line 119:
::::::::Sorry. Forgot this was a serious forum.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 15:34, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry. Forgot this was a serious forum.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 15:34, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Ok Clarinet Hawk I'm giving the reasons here! Ok so you said that Peach has good air speed. That is of course not true, it is way too slow. Also you argued that Mewtwo is easy to KO when Peach only weighs 5 more pounds than Mewtwo and she is very tall when Ness is 94 pounds and he is way shorter, which makes Peach a lot easier to KO than Ness, Doc, Mario, etc. Also you said that Mewtwo is easy to KO when he has the 3rd best recovery in the game and he has teleporting moves that can help Mewtwo escape from attacks and grabs and it forces the opponent to use a lot of mindgames. Also Peach is light, tall and floaty too so you can't argue about Mewtwo's weight, size, and floatiness. And also get this, Peach is the biggest luck issue in the game so you can't perdict the outcome of her forward smash or her turnips. Also Peach's moves are kind of laggy and very weak. So overall Peach is a bad character and is way too overrated and Mewtwo is a good character that is way too underrated! So Peach above Falcon!? Are you kidding me?! And Mewtwo in Bottom tier?! Come on people, you can do a lot better than that!!!!! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Ok Clarinet Hawk I'm giving the reasons here! Ok so you said that Peach has good air speed. That is of course not true, it is way too slow. Also you argued that Mewtwo is easy to KO when Peach only weighs 5 more pounds than Mewtwo and she is very tall when Ness is 94 pounds and he is way shorter, which makes Peach a lot easier to KO than Ness, Doc, Mario, etc. Also you said that Mewtwo is easy to KO when he has the 3rd best recovery in the game and he has teleporting moves that can help Mewtwo escape from attacks and grabs and it forces the opponent to use a lot of mindgames. Also Peach is light, tall and floaty too so you can't argue about Mewtwo's weight, size, and floatiness. And also get this, Peach is the biggest luck issue in the game so you can't perdict the outcome of her forward smash or her turnips. Also Peach's moves are kind of laggy and very weak. So overall Peach is a bad character and is way too overrated and Mewtwo is a good character that is way too underrated! So Peach above Falcon!? Are you kidding me?! And Mewtwo in Bottom tier?! Come on people, you can do a lot better than that!!!!! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::Have you tried SSBM lately? Test it. You will see that her air speed is fast in comparison to others. It's fast in comparison. It looks slow compared to Fox, but still. Pounds don't matter as well, as Mewtwo is extremly heavy in the pokemon game and you can't detect pounds anyway. Height don't matter as well, unless the character is really light as well. Recovery doesn't always matter, as you could knock him off the stage AGAIN. Teleporting moves? Only his air dodge teleports and Up special. And both leave him helpless in air. Anyone can side step and air dodge, Mewtwo just does it longer. Big deal. Peach is not as light as Mewtwo, Mewtwo is somewhat taller, and Peach can choose to be floaty at times =\. Luck issues huh? Prat Falling's luck as well in SSBB. I'm using an SSBB example to tell you that luck can be bad or good. Only 2 moves rely on luck. And the turnips are still good projectiles. Mewtwo is by far lighter and taller than Peach and has to be floaty all the time. That let's him be juggled easily. He dodges in midair, falls helplessly, the opponent then up smashes and dead =\.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 16:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:Ok, her double jump is way too slow, her running speed is too slow, her grab range is too short, and what do you mean Peach is not always light, she is always light. Just switch her placement with Doc and make Doc the leader of the Mario universe. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:38, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::*Sigh*. I said floaty adn she isn't as light as Mewtwo when it comes to knockback recived. The stuff you mentioned is true and is what placed her 7 or so. You're thinking that Doc will be superior to Peach. Opinionated =\.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 16:43, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


== What the heck are you talking about? ==
== What the heck are you talking about? ==
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:::I just don't want Mewtwo to be bottom tier anymore cause he deserves to be in middle tier! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:07, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::I just don't want Mewtwo to be bottom tier anymore cause he deserves to be in middle tier! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:07, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::Well, there's your problem. You see, tier lists are not about "want". They are about "are". That is, they're not about '''opinion''', they're about '''fact'''. It does not matter whether a character '''deserves''' X, what matters is whether it '''is''' X. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 16:14, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::Well, there's your problem. You see, tier lists are not about "want". They are about "are". That is, they're not about '''opinion''', they're about '''fact'''. It does not matter whether a character '''deserves''' X, what matters is whether it '''is''' X. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 16:14, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::::Well, Mewtwo is definately not the 3rd worst character in the game, he's not even a bad character at all! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:16, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::::::He is easily KO'd. He may not be bad to you, but that's because you aren't using characters to the max potential. Mewtwo is helpless kay? I 2nd main him just for fun, as SSBM ain't all that seroius to me. Pichu is ranked last due to the damage thing and that it's easily KO'd. Mewtwo is large, he can take damage. He could disappear in mid air, he falls and gets hit. He's light, a smash could easily KO him at 50% or somethin. You say he has good moves, but you don't realize the faults in characters. Every character has faults, Mewtwo just has big ones.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 16:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:No Mewtwo can't be KO'D in 50%, nobody can (maybe exept jiggz, G&W, and Pichu) and Peach has many faults too so you can't complain about Mewtwo being so large. I'm just saying he ain't useless, he can be good! [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2JisqDkxhw&feature=related Here's to prove it and they have the same amount of skill!] I also didn't say Pichu was good and I agree that Pichu is not so good (check my average on my user page). Peach is just not the 5th best character, but maybe 10th. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::I said about 50% or so. I don't know for real, but that's not the point. State Peaches faults and Mewtwos faults then =\.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 16:47, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::We just stated them 30 min ago! I'm not going through it again. Well Mewtwo's moonwalk and wavedash are better than Peach's and Peach only has her Down Smash to relie on! I'm telling ya, Doc is betta!!! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 16:56, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


===\==  
===\==  
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::I was thinking the same thing. 11th place where Jigglypuff is. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
::I was thinking the same thing. 11th place where Jigglypuff is. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::Thats better! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 15:23, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
:::Thats better! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 15:23, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
==Luigi==
Um, guys? Can I get an explanation for Luigi at 19?-[[User:Ivy73|<span style="color:forestgreen">Ivy</span>]][[User talk:Ivy73|<span style="color:blue">73</span>]][[Image:002MS.png]] 14:28, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
== Mewtwo ==
Stop being stupid about this.  Mewtwo sucks.  Honestly, do you really think that if he was good enough to be tenth on the list people would have stayed away from him this long?  You put up one video.  And the only time in that video that matters is the final one stock on one stock, as the tier list is for singles.  Single one stock match-ups mean ''nothing'' to tiers.  A tier list is an aggregate of the play of the character over time.  At 10 years since it's release, we can stop going on potential and look at how the character plays.  If you two want to think that he is good, fine.  But if you want us to treat this as a serious discussion about a serious attempt at a tier list, it's high time you started taking some actual positions on things, and not just link to one video.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 15:00, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Apparently from what they told me on the IRC, they believe Mewtwo's recovery and "teleporting" is enough to make up for his massive weaknesses in other, more important areas (of course I completely disagree with them). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 15:13, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
::No, his recovery may have a large amount of distance, but that doesn't make it good.  He is incredibly slow while recovering, which, combined with his large size, makes him very easy to off-stage.  Also, the teleporting is over rated.  In any event, there are usually three directions that will flat out kill him, two more that set him up for being hit, one or two that accomplish nothing, and only one (maybe two) that give him some kind of advantage.  So any good player will know where you are going even if they can't see Mewtwo's dodge animation.  Oh, and since you seem to like videos, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPPDvT_KRE4&feature=related here] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaC2PWfZJEg&feature=related are] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLiRBAKWEeU&feature=related some] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3bwu0dNCAU&feature=related more] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txM4ENohbmo&feature=related videos] for you to consider.  Bear in mind that Taj is considered the best Mewtwo in the world.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 15:36, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Ok first of all, that was the worlds best Falcon (SS)! Second of all, it was pretty even and Mewtwo got some good combos on Falcon! Third of all, we didn't say Mewtwo was better than Falcon, we only said he should be in middle tier! And forth of all, even though Falco has really gimping problem, he is still considered good, when you guys argue over Mewtwo's weaknesses which aren't that much, so stop saying he sucks, because he doesn't, it's just your opinion! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 19:11, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Also, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVFZEGZvRn4 watch] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6z-3Cl202Y these][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aQ6YGX-vNs&feature=related if] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYhjriLt6k&feature=related you think Mewtwo is] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZAeGBnlT8&feature=related bad!]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u89hqpmQwqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7F0BRX7u4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuuQCqvp_0s&feature=related
::So it's our opinion Mewtwo is a poor character? Well, it's also your opinion he's not. The difference is, we provided you with facts as to why Mewtwo is a poor character while you have yet to provide valid facts to support Mewtwo being a good character. What I find most flawed in your statement is you saying Mewtwo's weaknesses aren't that much. The fact of the matter is, Mewtwo has some maajor weaknesses that Mewtwo simply can't get around. About these weakness, you really don't think Mewtwo being the fourth largest character but only being a floaty lightweight is not a huge weakness? A character who is easy to hit, gets combo'd easily, and gets KO'd at such low percentages, you really don't see that as a major weakness? Considering how easy it is to rack up damage on Mewtwo and how quickly he gets KO'd, Mewtwo is arguable the easiest character to KO in ''Melee''. Then there's also Mewtwo's KO problems. The inability to KO is always a major problem, there's no way to sugarcoat it. What's worse for Mewtwo is that arguably his best finisher, the up throw, has its power based on falling speed. As a result, it's incapable of KOing the prominent fast fallers under 150% while these same fast fallers are capable of KOing Mewtwo under 100%, especially Fox and his u-smash, which can KO Mewtwo under 70%. So stop ignoring these massive weaknesses, any character who is so easy to KO yet has such difficulty earning KOs is going to find difficulty competing at any level of play. While Mewtwo may not be absolutely useless and I'll confidently say he's better than Kirby and Pichu, he is certainly not middle or even low tier, let alone being the 10th best character in the game. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 02:39, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
:Well Peach has weaknesses too and you guys always ignore them just because she is overrated! [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 01:07, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
::Quality post right there...  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:57, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::What do you mean C. Hawk? [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 00:08, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::He was being sarcastic. Your comment basically said "I think this so you are wrong", instead of saying "I think this and these are the reasons why". Okay, so maybe you gave reasons in a previous comment, but the point is that you made a comment that acts as nothing but a waste of space. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 02:20, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
==Peach==
Serously? She was top tier and you lowered her to mid tier. Before, she was best Mario character, and you put Mario and Dr. Mario ahead of her. You guys aren't realizing what she can do and think her weaknesses are major, but they aren't, kay?--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 15:03, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
:We don't think that the weaknesses are major. We just think that the weaknesses are a little big for a high tier, thats all. [[User:Zeldasmash|Zeldasmash]] ([[User talk:Zeldasmash|talk]]) 15:43, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
::Ok, first of all she's high tier not top, and second of all, Peach is really slow and floaty, and third of all, she has poor range and some laggy attacks. So instead of having a princess in the high tier, why don't you guys have someone that's a '''REAL''' fighter like Samus and Ganondorf? [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 00:11, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::Maybe everyone on SmashWiki should have to pay a dollar so we can pay some black guy in some ghetto to kill this fucking fag<!---->got.  Then stupid people will shut the fuck up when it comes to shit they know nothing about.  [[Special:Contributions/174.136.39.59|174.136.39.59]] 02:55, July 15, 2010 (UTC)  <span style="color:red">'''--User was temp banned for this post'''</span>
:::A character's profession/abilities/personality/fanbase/etc has absolutely nothing to do with how good they are as a Smasher. You should also remember that we don't make the tier lists, the guys on SmashBoards with over a million hours of combined Smash Bros. experience do. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 02:20, July 15, 2010 (UTC)