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Talk:Clone/Archive 3: Difference between revisions
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::Very well done, this is what I was hoping someone would do. I'm fine with this outcome. [[User:Grim Tuesday|Grim Tuesday]] ([[User talk:Grim Tuesday|talk]]) 03:59, July 4, 2010 (UTC) | ::Very well done, this is what I was hoping someone would do. I'm fine with this outcome. [[User:Grim Tuesday|Grim Tuesday]] ([[User talk:Grim Tuesday|talk]]) 03:59, July 4, 2010 (UTC) | ||
:::Now about that sword statement, you made an edit around the same time that edit was made, so I thought it was you made it but didn't sign your comment, I did not realize that it was part of Mr.Anon's post (who does not always sign in). Now about the disrespect thing, we misinterpreted what we said, which results in accusations, and I apoligize for that. But again, I'm far from angry. I may be a little irritated, but do not accuse me of losing my temper, there is nothing in my posts which suggest I'm being angry and irrational. I admit I had a bias against you at first. If you look through our talk pages and forums, you'll see that there have been many IPs and new users who have not contributed to the mainspace that make these long and flawed posts on these pages. Then when an established user comes along and effectively points out the flaws in their post, they do what I call "complaining". They just whine that they're right without putting up a valid counter argument. Almost all of the IPs/new users who do this end up never contributing to the mainspace. A few of them admit they are wrong and do end up becoming productive contributors. So as a result, I have a bias against IPs and new users who's first posts outside their userpage are long and flawed rants on talk pages and forums, which does apply to you. As I can see, you are not one of these users and you're a much more worthy adversary than they were. But don't say you know more about the English language than I do. So what if I made a minor grammar mistake, it was unintentional and with all these words I typed in the past 24 hours, I'm bound to make some sort of error. As such, don't act like you never made a grammer mistake before. I also didn't use the word "function" wrong. I was using it in the context "how something is designed", which when used in this context, it is not synonymous with purpose. As such, Link's and Toon Link's f-smashes are designed differently. Do not also say you know more about Nintendo history than I do. Since you brought that you played ''Smash Bros.'' before I did, I'll bring up the fact that I've been literally playing Nintendo games before you were born. I have also played the games I have owned in my life to great depths and researched information relating to them. | |||
:::Now the intro is over, time to get back to the argument. First off, I never said that Fox's Blaster wasn't based off the games he was from, so there was no reason to point out what the Blaster was based off of. As for Fox Illusion, just how could it be based on a turbo boost? As for DK, I was aware of the Spinning Kong being similar to the twirly thing Dixie Kong did in DKC2, but DK himself does not use a move similar to it. As such, why would a character have a move based off a move that another character uses? As for Captain Falcon, the fact that his moves have "Falcon" in their names does not mean they were based off his games. Raptor Boost could be very vaguely based off a boost, but Falcon Kick simply is not. Now you ask, what other moves from their game could they have be their special moves? For Ganondorf, he could have ues the lightning ball that he uses in OoT and could have used the ground punch that he also uses in OoT as a special move or standard attack. As for Sheik, I don't see any other moves she could have had bases off of her games as she only appeared in OoT and that often. As for Ike, he could of have the abilities in the two Fire Emblem games he's in as some of his special moves, such as Adept. Marth on the other hand was in a less complex Fire Emblem and doesn't have any sort of notable attacks. As for the other characters, I don't have access to their games or they're not in my tastes so I can't think of any other moves for them (though I did read somewhere that R.O.B. could have used the blocks he came with as a special move). The point of me bringing this part of the argument up was to show you that Pikachu is not the only character to not have specials that aren't based of moves that they have in their games and it seems we finally agree on something. | |||
:::Now to Link and Toon Link, who seem to be the primary focus of this argument. As for the other moves you mentioned for Toon Link, the Skull Hammer would be unsuitable for him. I would imagine that it would be very slow (just like it is in the games), thus making it incompatible with Toon Link's fast sword and projectile based play style. As for the Wind Waker attacks, all but the Wind Requiem would be unsuitable, though the Wind Requiem itself would be pointless if he had the Deku Leaf. The Ballad of Gales teleports Link long distances via cyclone, which is unsuitable for reasons I assume are obvious. As for the other two, their effects sound too overpowering. No character should have the ability to summon a partner whenever they want. It's bad enough that Diddy Kong can spawn bananas whenever he wants (but that is a different argument). Now for Toon Link's and Link's f-smashes. The fact that both move have the same control input is completely irrelevant. You wouldn't say that Ike and Peach's f-smashes are similar for having the same controller input. You are absolutely correct that they have almost the same animation and I won't argue against it. Now to be specific, they are not using the same exact weapon, they are wielding two different Master Swords of two different sizes, but them wielding a sword for their f-smash is also irrelevant as that is part of the animation. Both of them being two hit attacks is also irrelevant, as that is part of the animation. So for your similarities, you basically have the same reason listed three times and the same button input is irrelevant as a similarity. But as their function, or how they were designed since you took my use of function out of context last time, Link's f-smash is designed to be a single hit f-smash that strikes twice, while Toon Link's f-smash is designed to be a two hit f-smash, except you can control when the second hitbox comes out. As such, these moves have similar animations, but different functions, resulting in these moves being what you can call "semi-clone moves". When I go through Link's and Toon Link's moveset, they have six different attacks (u-smash, f-throw, b-throw, nair, fair, bair), 8 semi-cloned attacks (d-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, d-smash, dair, neutral B, side B, and up B), and 8 cloned attacks (jab, f-tilt, u-tilt, pummel, u-throw, d-throw, uair, and down B). By going by a moveset percentage that does not give preferential treatment to specials, their movesets are 54.54% similar. As such, this percentage is far from being enough for them to be clones. Now to Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in ''Melee''. They had two different attacks (jab, fair), 5 semi cloned attacks (u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, d-smash, and nair), and 15 cloned attacks (f-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, pummel, all throws, bair, uair, dair, and all specials). This results in a moveset similarity of 79.54%. As such, these two were much similar in ''Melee'' than the Links are in Brawl. As for you claiming me to be hypocritical about the Links' special moves being the same, I never once said they were. I was pointing out how many people claim them to be the same and I was pointing out that if this was true and that special moves decided how characters play, then how can Link and Toon Link have different playstyles. I will admit the developers could have put more effort into making Toon Link more different, but he obviously has some similarities with Young Link. As such, the developers probably designed him to be based on Young Link's play style as to appease the Young Link fans. | |||
:::Now about general purpose for a move category and such. I won't elaborate here, but I believe I made myself pretty clear that there are much more up B moves with the purpose of recovering than there are of any of standard attack categories containing attacks wit the purpose you decided they have. For example, in ''Brawl'', all up Bs but Jigglypuff's can be used for recovering while only about half the dairs are notable meteor smashes. | |||
:::Now ultimately, this debate isn't going anywhere, as it is a debate of ideaoligies. I adamantly believe I'm right while you adamantly believe you're right. Chances are, none of us will be able to convince the other side. You believe special moves > standard attacks in determining cloneship since they are usually based off of moves that character's had in their games and as you said, that standard attacks are just "extra moves to complete a character's moveset". I believe standard attacks = special moves in determining cloneship since special moves are just attacks with special effects while standard attacks build the core of the character. As for you wondering on what I believe constitutes a clone, if two characters have a moveset similarity percentage of at least 70% to 80%, then I believe it is acceptable to call them clones (as the case with all the ''Melee'' characters we call clones). If two characters have a moveset similarity percentage of at least 40% to 50%, then I believe it is acceptable to call them semi-clones. As for what on your userpage turned me the wrong way, it was the face thing you pastes on your picture, which comes as immaturity (which in turn I interpret as unniintelligence) to me. I never did say you were unintelligent, I just said that I'm clearly more intelligent than you are, mainly as backlash to you bringing up that you are a SWF member, game developer, and professional smasher. I can see you are more intelligent that the average 14 year old and I underestimated you. Again, I'm not acting like I'm all knowing and my opinion > everyone else. If I really wanted to act like I was superior, I could have rubbed it in your face that I'm an admin on this site, which I never mentioned, while you made your statement about being a pro, which came off to me as you trying to say that your opinion > mine. Again, none of us meant our posts to be seen in this way, which resulted in us being offended and making this debate not as clean as it should have been. Again, I apologize for my misinterpretations. You can keep debating with me on what is more important in regards to special moves vs. standard attacks and whether or not Link and Toon Link are full fledged clones. Continue this debate and it's in my nature to argue on unless given an argument that I cannot properly counter, but honestly I'm getting tired of typing these walls of text as must you. We can call a truce on this or we can continue, I'm willing to do either. You are clearly intelligent and I would like to see contribute to the mainspace. However, don't think mentioning that you are from SWF or a pro would cause me to give you the same respect I give an established user. It would have been better for you to have made some edits to the main space before making your first post on here, then maybe we would have not gotten in such a messy debate. I also made this post before Toomai posted, but I must still post this as I can't let two hours go to absolute waste. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 04:49, July 4, 2010 (UTC) | |||