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Talk:Clone/Archive 3: Difference between revisions
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==what about== | ==what about== | ||
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:::::::::::::You didn't quash any of what I've said unintentionally or intentionally. You did intend to escape this debate by calling for more opinions (which is OK, but using it to disguise backing off is unnecessary; just admit that you're wrong), though. It seems you don't intend to refute anything I've said at all, actually. I never "literally" said all of your points were stupid either, I said your thought process is flawed, and it is "perfectly fine" because you've yet to come up with a response that proves my points invalid (including the one about your thought process being flawed). <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 18:11, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | :::::::::::::You didn't quash any of what I've said unintentionally or intentionally. You did intend to escape this debate by calling for more opinions (which is OK, but using it to disguise backing off is unnecessary; just admit that you're wrong), though. It seems you don't intend to refute anything I've said at all, actually. I never "literally" said all of your points were stupid either, I said your thought process is flawed, and it is "perfectly fine" because you've yet to come up with a response that proves my points invalid (including the one about your thought process being flawed). <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 18:11, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::::::::this has become just a debate over who debates better. What's the verdict on luigi? We need someone else's input. | :::::::::::::::this has become just a debate over who debates better. What's the verdict on luigi? We need someone else's input. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Littlesquirtle|Littlesquirtle]] ([[User talk:Littlesquirtle|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Littlesquirtle|contribs]]) 18:35, 22 October 2014 (EDT)</small> | ||
Luigi, in my opinion, is a semi-clone, but this is up for debate. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 18:41, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | Luigi, in my opinion, is a semi-clone, but this is up for debate. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 18:41, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | ||
:Just a heads up: this isn't really something that can be dictated by majority rule, unless that means that we overhaul the definition of a semi-clone. If we go by Nutta's "logic", Ganondorf, Falco, Lucas, and Jigglypuff (SSB64) aren't semi-clones. Again, the proof is in the gameplay. All you need to do is look at the animations for Luigi's moves to see that he's still a semi-clone. This can't possibly be that difficult of a task. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 18:42, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | :Just a heads up: this isn't really something that can be dictated by majority rule, unless that means that we overhaul the definition of a semi-clone. If we go by Nutta's "logic", Ganondorf, Falco, Lucas, and Jigglypuff (SSB64) aren't semi-clones. Again, the proof is in the gameplay. All you need to do is look at the animations for Luigi's moves to see that he's still a semi-clone. This can't possibly be that difficult of a task. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 18:42, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | ||
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:'''''Semi-clone is a term used as a sort of midway point being "clone" and "non-clone". Semi-clones share some of their moveset with another character, and may have some similarity in physics, but have enough unique about them that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate. Different players have different opinions of how unique a character has to be to move from "clone" to "semi-clone" status; some players tend to exaggerate the importance of special moves for character comparison, for example.''''' | :'''''Semi-clone is a term used as a sort of midway point being "clone" and "non-clone". Semi-clones share some of their moveset with another character, and may have some similarity in physics, but have enough unique about them that calling them a "clone" wouldn't be entirely accurate. Different players have different opinions of how unique a character has to be to move from "clone" to "semi-clone" status; some players tend to exaggerate the importance of special moves for character comparison, for example.''''' | ||
:So, your choice on what to do with this information, but personally, Luigi is a semi-clone. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 18:49, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | :So, your choice on what to do with this information, but personally, Luigi is a semi-clone. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 18:49, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | ||
I would like to note that [[User:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts|Omega Tyrant analysed the ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' clones in the past]] to determine the degree of cloning between them. I considered this the end-all be-all resource on the subject of semi-clones versus clones, but I'd like to see if others agree or disagree with OT's assessments. | |||
:--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>, 18:53, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
::…yeah, but things could be different this time around. The semi-clone status between Mario and Luigi has decreased between ''Melee'' (50%) and ''Brawl'' (36%), and has most likely decreased even more for ''SSB4''. So, the only real way to tell if Mario and Luigi are semi-clones anymore is to do a comparison of moves, similar to what OT did, and see how similar Mario and Luigi's moves are in ''Smash 4''. That should anwser this question once and for all, or at least try to. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 19:02, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
Thank you, miles. [[User:Littlesquirtle| Littlesquirtle, an average user who doesn't like his signature.]] ([[User talk:Littlesquirtle|talk]]) 19:00, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
::That's Monsieur Crow, not Miles. As for OT's chart, I agree with it mostly. I think percentage range could dictate clone status. What should that range be? If the percentage is less than 20, then they're not any kind of clone. If it's more than 20 but less than 51, then they're semi-clones, and if it's 51 or greater then they're clones. (The 51 is to avoid classifying Luigi as a full clone of Mario in ''Melee''). So, I've tested Luigi's moves, and he still has the same animations for them from Brawl. He has a new forward-leaning first jump, and the first hit of his jab is no longer identical to Mario's (though, according to OT's chart, the jab combo on the whole is what matters), but that's it. I'd still give the miscellaneous point, which means Luigi still shares 36% of his moves with Mario and is therefore still a semi-clone (if you all accept the aforementioned numbers). <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 19:27, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
:::I'd almost be willing to accept those numbers if it didn't feel like you chose them just to prove your case, which is probably because you're being such a jerk about having to be right. | |||
I feel like my opinions have been twisted around and changed into an idiotic childish suggestion, so my natural impulses require that I restate them in a way that everyone will (hopefully) understand my point. | |||
*'''FIRST OFF''': I am far from a professional Smasher. I hardly understand anything beyond "press buttons to beat people up" (including not knowing many combos or being able to study such things in large detail naturally), and though this technique seems to work for me considering I'm pretty good among my friends who ''do'' know details such as this, I'm a failure at understanding most more complicated details. That said, I believe clones and semi-clones are not complicated. | |||
*'''BACK IN SUPER SMASH BROS.''': Luigi was added, probably as a last-minute character because Sakurai needed a twelfth, as a nearly identical character to Mario. Luigi had I think one maybe two, maximum of five big differences from Mario besides physics, which were very similar, but not quite identical. He, however, shared several of his animations, and all of his specials (with minor differences). | |||
*'''THEN COMES MELEE''': With the addition of side specials, Luigi is differentiated more from Mario with Cape/Green Missile. Additionally, a few of his non-specials and animations have been changed, as well as his physics distancing himself from Mario even more. Dr. Mario is added as a full clone of Mario, sharing all of his attacks with tweaks to distance them ever so slightly, so that there's actually a ''point'' to them. | |||
*'''BRAWL ROLLS AROUND...''': ...and all clones are basically removed. Falco and Ganondorf, the only two clones to return, are nearly entirely revamped in a similar vein as Luigi to Smash 64 to Melee. Their physics too are tweaked, with Falco's down special being revamped to work entirely differently from Fox's, with only a few similarities, most of which in appearance and basic theory. Luigi is revamped once more to have only a few (evidently 25, thanks to you super-nerds who count (not meant as offensive, i find being a super-nerd as a compliment)) similarities with Mario. His animations and physics are different once more, and Mario is given a new down special while Luigi keeps his current one, which differentiates them even more. While most clones share all of their moves, and the most special moves different in two semi-clones (besides Luigi) is one (with Captain Falcon/Ganondorf), Luigi shares only a small margin of all of his moves with him (I'm calculating that characters have a lot more than 25 moves total). He also gets his own Final Smash, although this is shared with Ganondorf (and Ganondorf alone). Luigi is now, as far as I can tell, the most distanced from his original out of any other semi-clone. I don't, however, know how many moves overall Ganon and Falcon share, nor Falco/Fox, Toon/Link, Ness/Lucas, etc. | |||
*'''NOW HERE WE ARE WITH SMASH 4''': Dr. Mario returns, and is counted as a clone of Mario, mostly because that's how he was created (but I'm sure there's other reasons). Dr. Mario is now a full-clone with at least four rather notable differences (as listed on this page), while Lucina and Dark Pit share all of their specials, and Lucina basically shares all other moves too (though Dark Pit has more unique than Lucina, such as his Final Smash). The remaining semi-clones (besides Luigi) are Falco, Ganondorf, and Toon Link. While Falco and Ganondorf are mostly unchanged from brawl (with the only differences being customizations and some animations for the most part), and Toon Link is too (although Link is changed slightly, distancing those two), Luigi is revamped once again, with a new down throw and some new animations, among other things. With Luigi and Mario being the most distanced semi-clones in Brawl (as far as the non-smash-super nerd eye can see) and being one of two that are separated farther in Smash 4, I find it rather ridiculous that they're still considered semi-clones. | |||
Now I'm done, I think. TL;DR, that's what my opinions are, and as far as they go I'm comfortable with this situation. On the other hand, if someone starts quoting them and posting how stupid they are ''again'', I'm strongly considering asking if it counts as a personal attack, since I'm feeling largely insulted... although probably no one will do anything <small>''---Previously unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]]'' </small> 21:14, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
:Here's what I said above: | |||
:'''''The semi-clone status between Mario and Luigi has decreased between ''Melee'' (50%) and ''Brawl'' (36%), and has most likely decreased even more for ''SSB4''. So, the only real way to tell if Mario and Luigi are semi-clones anymore is to do a comparison of moves, similar to what OT did, and see how similar Mario and Luigi's moves are in ''Smash 4''. That should anwser this question once and for all, or at try to.''''' | |||
:A comparison of moves, similar to [[User:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts|this]], is really one of the only way we can tell if Mario and Luigi are semi-clones or not; OT's chart seems accurate enough, so why not do the same with ''Smash 4''? <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 21:24, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
::Sounds entirely logical to me. <small>''---Previously unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]]'' </small> 21:33, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
::Geez, am I talking to a wall? Here's what I said above: | |||
::<font size=4>"'''So, I've tested Luigi's moves, ''and he still has the same animations for them from Brawl.'' He has a new forward-leaning first jump, and the first hit of his jab is no longer identical to Mario's (though, according to OT's chart, the jab combo on the whole is what matters), but that's it. I'd still give the miscellaneous point, ''which means Luigi still shares 36% of his moves with Mario and is therefore still a semi-clone.'''''"</font> | |||
::I already did the testing. If I posted a chart, it'd only look like the one OT made to compare Mario and Luigi in Brawl. The only modification I'd make is to the nair, which [[:File:Neutral aerial.png|looks the same]], but is initiated differently. That'd increase the amount of moves they share to 40%, but to seem like less of a jerk, I omitted the n-air (and because, as with OT's tests, n-air sex kicks pretty much all look the same). <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 22:22, 22 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
:::I have an idea: | |||
:::Let's talk regularly, and don't swear at each other. I'm aware of the 'SmashWiki is not censored' rule, but don't swear at someone for the entire duration of your post. Secondly, if you want to express importance in some portion of your text, use minor italicization and bolding, no caps, no bolding the entire post, and definitely none of what BNK just did. Quit raging, period. What happened to this once sensibly managed discussion? | |||
:::And the definition of a semi-clone is a character who shares several important characteristics with another character. I'm going with Rtzxy on this one; someone ''non-biased'' should go and analyze their different moves. <font face="sand">''[[User:Qwerty|<font color="black">Qw</font><font color="003F3F">er</font><font color="005F5F">ty</font>]] ''[[User talk:Qwerty|<font color="005F6F">(t</font><font color="003C6F">al</font><font color="000F7F">k)</font>]]</font> 18:25, 25 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
::::Yeah, non-bias sounds good. Which basically means no one who's previously posted in this section (except maybe you, Qwerty, you didn't entirely share your opinion). ...So uh, anyone stalking recent changes right now? <small>''---Previously unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]]'' </small> 18:27, 25 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
Enough of this. I've already edited the page to reflect the disagreement. Any further bickering here is counterproductive. Let's all try to remember [[SW:NPA]] in the future and keep future disagreements more civil. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:50, 25 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
:I'm not here to further any of the bickering, but to reconcile. First off, I was wrong to insult Nutta Butta's intelligence as many times as I did. Secondly, I was pretty wrong in my tests as I forgot that Luigi has a brand new down throw, pummel, and grab animation, which decreases the percentage of moves he has in common with Mario. So, Qwerty, Nutta, and Rtxzy were right not to take my judgement seriously. I'll be much more careful next time, and I'll be more civil and patient in future debates. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 03:37, 26 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
Okay so my opinion is on [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|this page]]. Basically, if Lucas is a semi-clone in Brawl, so is Luigi in SSB4. If you want to debate my method etc, do so over there. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 12:32, 26 October 2014 (EDT) | |||
:I agree 100% with Toomai's cloneosity, and consider Luigi a semi-clone. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]] 12:45, 26 October 2014 (EDT) | |||