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Forum:The Tier List, version 3: Difference between revisions
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::::Speaking of laggy moves, PK Flash is not useful due to how slow it is. Also, if you don't think Bowser's grabs are good, go to the smashboards forum and look at the Bowser guide. Look even at the entire gigantic thread on his grab alone. Ness's grabs are only good for killing, there are many characters I can think of with much better gabs (Falco, King D3, Snake, MK, and Bowser at lower percents for examples). Bowser's f-air works as an approach, same thing for many other moves. PK fire can be DI'd out of and Ness doesn't have the range to avoid being grab release infinited. And yes, Bowser can be chain grabbed, so can Ness. Both of them have a horrible matchup vs Falco and King D3 due to grab releases/chain grabs. Also Flying slam can be used to approach, as for using Quick Claw cancelling. Bowser's OOS Up b is great if the opponent uses any laggy move. Bowser's f-tilt has massive range and down air is great at killing. As I said before, its not like Bowser or Ness are actually technically good characters, its just that Bowser is better at standing vs many of the other characters. BTW, Ness's recovery is one of the reasons why Ness is such a low tier. --[[User:KoRoBeNiKi|KoRoBeNiKi]] ([[User talk:KoRoBeNiKi|talk]]) 07:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC) | ::::Speaking of laggy moves, PK Flash is not useful due to how slow it is. Also, if you don't think Bowser's grabs are good, go to the smashboards forum and look at the Bowser guide. Look even at the entire gigantic thread on his grab alone. Ness's grabs are only good for killing, there are many characters I can think of with much better gabs (Falco, King D3, Snake, MK, and Bowser at lower percents for examples). Bowser's f-air works as an approach, same thing for many other moves. PK fire can be DI'd out of and Ness doesn't have the range to avoid being grab release infinited. And yes, Bowser can be chain grabbed, so can Ness. Both of them have a horrible matchup vs Falco and King D3 due to grab releases/chain grabs. Also Flying slam can be used to approach, as for using Quick Claw cancelling. Bowser's OOS Up b is great if the opponent uses any laggy move. Bowser's f-tilt has massive range and down air is great at killing. As I said before, its not like Bowser or Ness are actually technically good characters, its just that Bowser is better at standing vs many of the other characters. BTW, Ness's recovery is one of the reasons why Ness is such a low tier. --[[User:KoRoBeNiKi|KoRoBeNiKi]] ([[User talk:KoRoBeNiKi|talk]]) 07:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC) | ||
:::::Tiers are based of of tourny results. As I said, SWR released a chart that ranks the most often used characters in tourneys. Bowser was in the bottom, along with Jiggly, Ganon, C. Falcon, and Link. Pk flash is '''not''' and unreliable KO move. It can easily be aimed at characters in the air or stunned characters. And what good are grabs if they can't KO? Ness also posseses a powerful reflector side smash as well as a move that can absorb any energy attack and heal himself. Ness has very good aerial attacks such as his Dair, a very powerful meteor smash. What does Bowser have? Lag and no reliable KO moves. I just don't see how his grabs are that good. He's easily edge guarded and his only projectle can only be used for a small amount of time. And I'm not biased against him. In fact, he's one of my mains. However, I'm not a pro and my strategy is to spam his B side and B down, which isn't a good Idea in tournys. Plus, he has worse matchups than even link, I belive. He counters pretty much no one except for C falcon and Ganon. Every other matchups is against him or even. Ness counters quite a lot of other characters, many of which are higher than him, such as Lucas. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 20:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC) | :::::Tiers are based of of tourny results. As I said, SWR released a chart that ranks the most often used characters in tourneys. Bowser was in the bottom, along with Jiggly, Ganon, C. Falcon, and Link. Pk flash is '''not''' and unreliable KO move. It can easily be aimed at characters in the air or stunned characters. And what good are grabs if they can't KO? Ness also posseses a powerful reflector side smash as well as a move that can absorb any energy attack and heal himself. Ness has very good aerial attacks such as his Dair, a very powerful meteor smash. What does Bowser have? Lag and no reliable KO moves. I just don't see how his grabs are that good. He's easily edge guarded and his only projectle can only be used for a small amount of time. And I'm not biased against him. In fact, he's one of my mains. However, I'm not a pro and my strategy is to spam his B side and B down, which isn't a good Idea in tournys. Plus, he has worse matchups than even link, I belive. He counters pretty much no one except for C falcon and Ganon. Every other matchups is against him or even. Ness counters quite a lot of other characters, many of which are higher than him, such as Lucas. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 20:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC) | ||
::::::A few things: | |||
*Tiers are not only based only off of tourney results. Tiers are based off of the metagame of said character. It refers to matchups and tourney results. | |||
*PK flash is not reliable, It is incredibly laggy up to KO percents and due to the ability for people to grab ledges incredibly easily, it is impossible to hit someone unless the opponent is bad at sweet-spotting. The majority of characters who's projectiles can be reflected can jump over the reflected projectile and then hit Ness before his f-smash comes back due to its high ending lag. Similarly, no one can use Ness's down b due to its lag at the end. You can be hit out of it. | |||
*The best grabs in any smash game are grabs that combo into moves or into itself. Falco, King D3, and IC's has the best grab in brawl due to their chain grab ability. Yoshi has a good grab even though it can't kill due to grab releases. Same thing applies to bowser but to a slightly greater extent. Ness has a bad dash grab with barely any range preventing him from many kills using grabs. | |||
*Ness's down air is good, Ill give you that, so is his up air, back air, f-air, and his forward b at lower percents. | |||
*Bowser's KO moves are F-air, down b on the ground (due to its original hitbox), down smash, down tilt, and slightly forward b, even though his Forward b is used mostly for approach due to claw cancelling. Bowser can also kill any character with grab release into sometimes up air, and at virtually every percent, f-air outside of characters that can get out of it (floaties). Bowser's main approach is f-air, Claw cancelling, f-tilt, and B (due to its ability to aim and slightly combo. Bowser usually doesn't need to approach too often due to great out of shield approaches (Up B as one great example). | |||
--[[User:KoRoBeNiKi|KoRoBeNiKi]] ([[User talk:KoRoBeNiKi|talk]]) 03:40, January 1, 2010 (UTC) | |||