Talk:Mario (SSBB)/Neutral attack/Hit 1/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

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Toomai moved page Talk:Mario (SSBB)/Neutral attack 1/Archive 1 to Talk:Mario (SSBB)/Neutral attack/Hit 1/Archive 1

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+{{archive}}
 == Merge ==
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 To be honest, the merged page has started to grow on me a bit. The merged page is almost 30% smaller than the three separate pages combined, which includes extra data that the separate pages can't display without duplication (i.e. the frame data for the combo overall). I'm much more undecided now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Indescribable 18:34, 29 August 2013 (EDT)
+:While that is kind of a point, is frame data for the combo overall really useful? As you said above, ''Yeah they're all connected, but there are several examples of characters that only ever use the first two of three, or who only ever use the first just to hit with the third.'' Having frame data for the combo overall is pretty much trivial and I don't see why it's needed. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:41, 4 September 2013 (EDT)
+::We have it because there are people who are interested in frame data, and the frame data is part of our project to create complete encyclopedic content about attacks. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:53, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::Still doesn't explain why it's ''needed''. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:11, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+Bump. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 15:16, 1 September 2013 (EDT)
+Well, while this may not matter for characters with less useful and/or notable jabs, you say every jab would be merged. I sense the merged page won't look good for characters with more versatile jabs such as Ike and Pit.
+Ike's jab has so many uses and options, a summary for all three would look confusing even when spaced out in paragraphs. It'd probably have two paragraphs - one for the first two hits, and another for the third and followup options. You'd have to explain how useful jab cancelling the move into itself and attacks such as u-tilt, d-tilt, grab, and so on, is. You may think I'm a hypocrite here, as I'm saying this while opposing the merge. In a merged summary, obviously the jab cancelling thing would only be explained once, so you may think it would be explained on both the pages of the first and second hits. However, both hits have different options during jab cancelling - the first is used for cancelling into itself to rack up damage, while the second can be cancelled into followup options such as d-tilt, u-tilt, grab, etc. So both hits have different uses and so they would fit well on separate pages.
+A merged hitbox overview of Pit's jab would be utterly confusing. He possess two different types of jabs, so how the hell would a merged hitbox overview of his jab be laid out? You could just have one overview for the three hit combo and a separate one for the two hit combo -> rapid jab. But this would look cluttered and laid out poorly with no sensible way to improve it.
+There are other characters with versatile jabs such as Captain Falcon whose merged overviews could have a similar result to the two I mentioned above (though probably to a lesser extent). [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:41, 4 September 2013 (EDT)
+:''"Ike's jab has so many uses and options, a summary for all three would look confusing even when spaced out in paragraphs."''<br>
+:Whether the pages are merged shouldn't be based on how useful the attack is, because it can still be explained in separate paragraphs. Having separate paragraphs should be no more confusing than separate sections on separate pages.
+:''"You'd have to explain how useful jab cancelling the move into itself and attacks"''<br>
+:You don't need to explain, you just need to say "The first and second hits can cancel into an up tilt, down tilt, or grab."
+:''"However, both hits would have different options during jab cancelling"''<br>
+:Then their different options would be listed under each other separately, something like "The first hit can jab cancel into an up tilt ................ the second hit can be jab cancelled into a grab."
+:''"Pit's jab would be utterly confusing"''<br>
+:We could possibly list the first two hits, then separately, the hit of the third hit and then the hits of the rapid jab. Possibly side-by-side underneath the first two hits. The overviews should be listed as "The three-hit combo..........The first hit........The second hit........The rapid jab......." It won't be cluttered. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:15, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
+::''We could possibly list the first two hits, then separately, the hit of the third hit and then the hits of the rapid jab. Possibly side-by-side underneath the first two hits. The overviews should be listed as "The three-hit combo..........The first hit........The second hit........The rapid jab......." It won't be cluttered.''<br>
+::Listing the three hit combo, then attempting to list the first two hits individually followed by the rapid jab, would certainly be cluttered. How can you say it wouldn't be? It already sounds complicated.
+::''Then their different options would be listed under each other separately, something like "The first hit can jab cancel into an up tilt ................ the second hit can be jab cancelled into a grab.''<br>
+::The jab cancelling applies to Ike's jab as a whole, and with so many different ways to do it and followups to it that universally apply to the two hits, explaining it properly like that would be difficult.
+::''You don't need to explain, you just need to say "The first and second hits can cancel into an up tilt, down tilt, or grab."''<br>
+::You definitely do need to explain. Aren't the moveset subpages trying to explain the attacks in full detail? Just saying that is not nearly as detailed as the moveset subpages aim to be. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:11, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::For the point about Pit's rapid jab, I meant keeping the first two hits on top, and underneath the first two hits, have data containing just the third hit on one side, and the rapid jab on the other. For Ike's jab, we could list what both hits can jab cancel into, then list what the first hit can, and then what the second hit can. By explaining, do you mean something like "Ike's jab cancels can lead into multi-hit combos that can deal a lot of damage" or something like that? If not, I'd like to know what your definition of explaining is. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:34, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::About Pit's jab: listing two sets of data may, with all the frame icons needed, have to be on multiple lines, which wouldn't look good at all. Listing them like that, plus the first two hits on either side above, would definitely look cluttered due to taking up an annoyingly large amount of space.<br>
+::::About Ike's jab: listing what both hits can jab cancel into in the same paragraph would be hard to write properly. It's hard for me to explain this exactly, but it would be rather annoying to browse through. Something like "Ike's jab cancels can lead into multi-hit combos that can deal a lot of damage" would be a rather generic explanation, with more depth required. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:45, 7 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::For Ike's jab, you could write "Both hits can cancel into xxxxxxx, and the first can additionally xxxxxxxx, and the second can xxxxxxxx." <br>
+:::::For Pit's jab, how could a table with say, five columns, look so much better than a table with ten columns? It shouldn't be much more difficult to read. Listing the third hit vertically followed by the rapid jab shouldn't even be hard to follow. An option to put the third hit and the rapid jab in separate tables that can be hidden would be possible. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:27, 8 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::''"Both hits can cancel into xxxxxxx, and the first can additionally xxxxxxxx, and the second can xxxxxxxx."''
+::::::Too brief, not specific enough, and written poorly.
+::::::''how could a table with say, five columns, look so much better than a table with ten columns? It shouldn't be much more difficult to read. Listing the third hit vertically followed by the rapid jab shouldn't even be hard to follow. An option to put the third hit and the rapid jab in separate tables that can be hidden would be possible.''
+::::::I'm referring to the frame strips, not the tables. /short reply [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 15:40, 8 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::The description of Ike's jab canceling abilities would obviously go into much more detail the the short example I stated above. I would be interested to see how you would write the description to see what it looks like. And there would have to be two frame strips, one displaying the third hit, and the other displaying the rapid jab. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 17:40, 8 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::::''I would be interested to see how you would write the description to see what it looks like.''
+::::::::What description are you referring to?
+::::::::''And there would have to be two frame strips, one displaying the third hit, and the other displaying the rapid jab.''
+::::::::I don't remember saying otherwise. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 10:58, 9 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::::I'm referring to a description of Ike's neutral attack, and I wasn't talking about anything you said about frame strips, I was just stating that there would have to be two. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:19, 9 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::::::''I'm referring to a description of Ike's neutral attack''
+::::::::::I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to say...
+::::::::::''I wasn't talking about anything you said about frame strips, I was just stating that there would have to be two.''
+::::::::::When did I say otherwise? [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 16:30, 10 September 2013 (EDT)
+<br>(reset indent) Would you mind writing a description about Ike's neutral attack combined? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 17:36, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
+:I can do that, but I don't have time now. Maybe tomorrow. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 17:41, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
+::Fine then.
+::Merged description:
+::''Ike punches with his left hand, then a step-forward kick, then an overhead swing of Ragnell, moving forward with each blow. This move alone gives Ike a great close range game, forcing the opponent to stay away from his jab range. It is very difficult to punish even when shielded for characters with poor out of shield options and is also great at punishing spot dodges. Excellent when crouch-canceled due to the first two hits having zero knockback and having high amount of hitstun, though it can be SDIed out of. Ike can perform versatile jab cancel combos with the first two jabs by crouch cancelling them, being able to use them repeatedly to rack up high damage, then being able to followup the second jab with an up tilt, down tilt, grab, etc. Its speed makes it a good out of shield option as well. The third hit delivers strong horizontal knockback and is one of the strongest neutral attacks in the game along with Snake's, being capable of KOing opponents around 150%. The first hit can jab lock, though this only works on certain parts of the hitbox, and due to Ike's speed, small changes in the setup can allow the opponent to break out of it. Does 4%, 5%, then 7%, for a total of 16% damage, but can deal about 20% or even 25% when jab canceled.''
+::Seperate descriptions:
+::First hit:
+::''Ike punches with his left hand. Does 4% damage. When used in conjunction with his second jab, Ike's neutral attack alone gives him a great close range game, forcing the opponent to stay away from his jab range. Along with the second jab, it has zero knockback, and has a high amount of hitstun, increasing jab cancel opportunities and followup options, as well as making the move excellent when crouch cancelled, though it can be SDIed out of. Its speed makes it a good out of shield option as well, whether only the first two jabs are used, or the entire combo is used. Ike's jab cancelling is usually performed by combining the first two hits repeatedly to rack up damage (it is possible to deal up to as high as 25%), with followup options usually being used after the second jab for maximum damage. Additionally, it can jab lock, though this only works on certain parts of the hitbox, and due to Ike's speed, small changes in the setup can allow the opponent to break out of it.''
+::Second hit:
+::''Ike does a step-forward kick. Does 5% damage. When used in conjunction with his second jab, Ike's neutral attack alone gives him a great close range game, forcing the opponent to stay away from his jab range. Along with the first jab, it has zero knockback, and has a high amount of hitstun, increasing jab cancel opportunities and followup options, as well as making the move excellent when crouch cancelled, though it can be SDIed out of. Ike's jab cancelling is usually performed by combining the first two hits repeatedly to rack up damage (it is possible to deal up to as high as 25%), with followup options after the second jab including up tilt, down tilt, grab, etc.''
+::Third hit:
+::''Ike does an overhead swing with Ragnell, doing 7% damage. Unlike his first two jabs, this jab is not suitable as a combo move, instead having all of the knockback of Ike's neutral attack. It is one of the strongest neutral attacks in the game along with Snake's, being capable of KOing opponents around 150%.
+::There. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 08:23, 14 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::If you like the separate descriptions better, I don't see why they can't all be on the same page. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:18, 14 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::Wut? It's either separate pages or merged pages (which will only have the merged description). [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 09:20, 14 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::If you like the separate descriptions better, I don't see what's wrong with putting them on the same page (even if you take out the merged description). [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:26, 14 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::This is steering away from the original conversation, but whatever. If the seperate descriptions were on the merged page, well, it would look like [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User:RoyboyX/MSNAs_merged&oldid=486704 that]. Toomai says that's a terrible misrep of how a merged page would look, and he says a merged page should look more like [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User:RoyboyX/MSNAs_merged&diff=486719&oldid=486704 that] (with just the merged description). [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 09:35, 14 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::They could be put at the top in separate paragraphs. I also don't see what's wrong with having the merged description, as it's not hard to follow, and there's nothing in the separate paragraphs that isn't/can't be described in the merged. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:24, 15 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::::''They could be put at the top in separate paragraphs.''<br>
+::::::::Then they're not next to their frame data information while they likely should be.
+::::::::''I also don't see what's wrong with having the merged description, as it's not hard to follow, and there's nothing in the separate paragraphs that isn't/can't be described in the merged.''
+::::::::Having both the seperate and merged descriptions is pointless and a waste of space. And the merged description not being hard to follow, doesn't make it any easier to follow than the seperate descriptions. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:02, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::::I didn't say that both the separate and merged descriptions had to be on the same page. The merged description isn't any harder to follow than the separate descriptions in my opinion, and flows better as well. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:07, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::::::An opinion is not what is valid. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 15:09, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::::::That's rather irrelevant, as your thoughts on this article are opinions as well :/ [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 17:54, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+::::::::::::I meant just saying "imo" or something without explaining... [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 18:03, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::I provided other reasons as well in that statement. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:29, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
+'''Oppose''': They aren't identical attacks and I think it looks better separately. It's not something like Mario (SSBB)/Forward Smash tilted upwards or something.
+--[[File:MMAI.png|link=|19px]][[User:MeMyselfAndI|<span style="color:#FF0000">Me</span>]][[User talk:MeMyselfAndI|Myself]][[Special:Contributions/MeMyselfAndI|<span style="color:#FF00FF">AndI</span>]] 13:46, 4 September 2013 (EDT)
+:How do you list information such as the entire attack sequence's duration and its uses without spreading it out over three separate pages and making it more difficult to write about properly? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 09:53, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+::How is explaining about the jab as a whole less difficult than explaining the three hits seperately? [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:11, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+New arguments were made actually, Ac2k. I repeat DP's statement the first time you reverted. [[Special:Contributions/99.241.56.206|99.241.56.206]] 08:31, 6 September 2013 (EDT)
+Bump. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:10, 8 September 2013 (EDT)
+Bump. Anyone else want to note on this? [[User:Dots|<font color="red">Do</font>]][[User talk:Dots|<font color="blue">t</font><font color="purple">s</font>]] [[File:MewtwoMS.png]] The Light 17:21, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
+No one has responded to my three currently standing points. If this is still the case in a few days, I'm de-tagging it. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 17:33, 13 September 2013 (EDT)
+Bump. Can we get this over with already? [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 22:58, 20 September 2013 (EDT)
+De-tagged per [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_%28SSBB%29/Neutral_attack_1&diff=493512&oldid=491996]. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 16:12, 27 September 2013 (EDT)