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 ::::↑ Agreed. Fox's only two boons in Brawl (vertical kill ability and lasers) were taken away in this game, so he isn't much more than crap now. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 17:48, 3 December 2014 (EST)
-::::↑Fox is in no way trash in this game his nerfs he has gained while hindering some of his potential, he makes up for wit the new hit-stun changes and improved recovery the combos fox can do are amazing and the small power buff he gained are extremely helpful.
+::::↑Fox is in no way trash in this game his nerfs he has gained while hindering some of his potential, he makes up for wit the new hit-stun changes and improved recovery the combos fox can do are amazing and the small power buff he gained are extremely helpful. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:G1thinkatron|G1thinkatron]] ([[User talk:G1thinkatron|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/G1thinkatron|contribs]]) {{{2}}}</small>
+:::::Combos don't matter all that much if you can't approach or bait approaches to land them. Good recoveries don't win tournaments. You only lose to Fox if you make a ton of mistakes and give him openings he should never get. He can't create his own openings.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 01:20, 2 January 2015 (EST)
+::::::Fox's approach options are definitely not foolproof, but you're talking like you're a tool assisted computer. There is no clear one-line answer that shuts him down, he is more than capable of mixing up his approaches using his movement options to bait opponents and create his own openings. So what his movement got nerfed, relative to the cast (you brought this up above) he's still one of the fastest characters in the entire game, in horizontal ground speed and the fastest in vertical air speed. Fox has the fastest dash to shield game (shield is up by frame 12), a jab that comes out on frame 2, a u-tilt that comes out on frame 5 which lasts until frame 17 and combos into itself, a long travelling Dash Attack that hits on frame 8 and lasts forever (till frame 19) and pops opponents to combo into U-tilts or aerials, a B-air that is positive on shield and comes out on frame 4 (can be auto-canceled and used to cross up), and the [http://youtu.be/6vaR4RM-qr0?t=2m35s 3rd longest perfect pivot slide] (a tad shorter than Little Mac's) which gives him a way of mixing up approaches, movement, and baiting opponents. All options he has may have an answer, but none of them are shut down by a one line answer like you claim they are: they all require different answers, no human opponent will react correctly 100% of the time the way you keep implying. If it was so easy to react to Fox's jittery fox-trotting mixed with perfect pivots, if it was so easy to avoid his jab confirms or getting grabbed by the 4th fastest character in the ground, if it was actually as easy as you make it sound to not get baited by Fox, then no one would be using him. But obviously people are using him: Dehf, Nakat, Shofu, TO Joe, and even new rising smashers like Megafox and Wusi from Germany. Last night in Toronto, I witnessed Nakat beat every single Diddy Kong using Fox. Why would he use a character you claim to be "bad" vs the best character in the game?
+::::::It baffles me that you think Fox is bad just because he lost the ability to gay out opponents with lasers or gimp them at 20% with shine like he could in previous games. This isn't Melee, and if you try to play him the way you do in that game, of course he's going to suck. You use lasers to force approaches (read again: not bad approaches, just force approaches) and you use shine to reflect (has no lag if you reflect something) or use it to stall and escape juggles. Just because you're trying to play Melee with Fox doesn't mean he's bad though, you're essentially ignoring the other things he got. Look at Side-B, the move has like 10 frames of landing lag if you use it in the air, it no longer puts you helpless which lets you recover or attack out of it, and the hitbox is much stronger in this game as it doesn't trade with things like Peach or Ness N-airs anymore like it did in previous games, they just clash with each other. It's a viable movement, escape and attack option now, and it can even follow up into a U-air or B-air for the KO at high percents. The other buffs he got were in regards to the engine itself, as pivots and the faster physics let him move much more freely than he could in Brawl. If you're not going to believe top players, believe the tournament results we've seen.
+::::::I would be happy to settle this in a money match at Apex 2015 next week. My Fox vs whatever character you play in Sm4sh. You are going, right? You're not just saying things in this wiki without having any WiiU tournament experience... right? I'll see you there, my tag is Cozy.
+::::::[http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-data-frame-data-get-your-frame-data-here.381142/ Source for frame data] ([[User:DavemanCozy|DavemanCozy]] ([[User talk:DavemanCozy|talk]]) 17:54, 25 January 2015 (EST))
+I respect the fact that you brought up frame data. However you did not tell me why those numbers mean anything with respect to neutral game. In fact do you even understand how high level neutral game works? Just because you have positive numbers doesn't necessarily mean there are viable spacings to use them. My claim is that Fox is bad because everything he does is a commitment. He doesn't have spacings where he can keep people in his threat zone and simultaneously stay out of other people's threat zones. Fox was good in Melee because he had the movement to accomplish exactly that: dash dancing. He doesn't have that anymore. Pivoting into a standing position has been in every Smash game. It's pretty much only useful in 64 and Melee because those games feature long dash dancing. IIRC 64 doesn't even have full runs so you can pivot into a stand whenever you want. But in Brawl and Smash 4, initial dash animations are incredibly short. You can't really use empty pivots to significantly change your spacing and move yourself away from someone else's threat. The "solution" people came up with to rectify this issue is to use Foxtrotting to more significantly change your spacing (as if it were a Melee dash dance), but Foxtrotting is an even bigger commitment since unlike Melee you can't shield in your initial dash and have to endure a skid animation before you can go into a stand again. As such there is 1 spacing that does invalidate all of Fox's options: standing right outside his initial dash length. If he tries to move, he will get hit.
+NAKAT gets his wins by merit of having significantly stronger fundamentals than his opposition, not his character. He understands what his opponent wants better than they do so he doesn't have to actually play advanced neutral against mid-level players.
+I am not going to Apex as it has always been a poorly run tournament. I went last year and my 8 am pool was delayed to 5 pm. I had to spend 7 hours walking around a cramped room that didn't have enough setups to allow friendlies. Not worth my time or money. EVO 2013 and EVO 2014 on the other were well run tournaments that allowed plenty of friendlies and finished early which gave me time to enjoy Vegas. I'll be spending my money there. Besides a money match with a mid level player like you wouldn't prove anything, now would it? Why should I waste my time on a game I don't enjoy. --<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 22:33, 25 January 2015 (EST)
+== Fox's down aerial. ==
+Why is its new knockback trajectory considered a nerf? It wasn't much of a good meteor smash to begin with. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 16:23, 15 January 2015 (EST)
+:In Brawl the meteor hitbox keeps people in place for a followup like an up tilt, grab, or up smash. Though it's worse now mostly because of the landing lag, idk why that isn't mentioned. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 16:26, 15 January 2015 (EST)