Talk:Tier list/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

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-{{notice|We understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not to debate on the ordering of tiers, '''we report the tier lists, we don't decide them'''. If you want to discuss the tier lists, go to these forums; ([[Forum:Tier List Discussion (Smash 4)|forum for Smash 4]], [[Forum:Tier List Discussion (Melee)|forum for Melee]]). If you want to argue tier placements, take it to Smashboards, not here.
-Additionally, '''do not use this page to argue about the existence of tiers'''. If you firmly believe tiers do not exist and are intent on changing the Wiki's stance about it, go see the argument we have on it on [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this page here]], and thoroughly refute the treatise on its talk page, do not argue it here.}}
-<big>'''Simplified version of the above:  <span style="color:green">Don't edit this page unless you have something to contribute about ''what'' the SBR said and the content of this article. We don't care if you disagree with them or tiers in general.</span></big>'''
 ==Master Hand==
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 ==SSB4 tier list==
-The tier for ssb4 was made on smashboards. http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/ <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Wintermelon43|Wintermelon43]] ([[User talk:Wintermelon43|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Wintermelon43|contribs]]) 16:23, March 26, 2015‎</small>
+The tier for ssb4 was made on smashboards. http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/ <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Wintermelon43|Wintermelon43]] ([[User talk:Wintermelon43|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Wintermelon43|contribs]]) 16:23, March 26, 2015</small>
 :[[Template talk:SSB4Tiers|We've already discussed this]]. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 16:25, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
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 ==NEW MELEE TIERS LIST==
-This tiers list was made over the course of 12 days with the help of redditors /u/scrubjr /u/scrubers /u/ReinDance /u/A_Waskawy_Wabit /u/Pokepen /u/Thebestaround555 /u/goatlink /u/my-name-is- /u/seanbeanskiller /u/spectremagic /u/upvotegod98 /u/vexoskeleton [http://i.imgur.com/X8cbPJD.png Here it is.] '''Text version:''' Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik | Puff, Captain Falcon, Peach | Ice Climbers, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Yoshi | Ganondorf, Mario, Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong | Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Ness, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, Kirby, Bowser. {{Unsigned|Scrubjr|01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)}}
+This tiers list was made over the course of 12 days with the help of redditors /u/scrubjr /u/scrubers /u/ReinDance /u/A_Waskawy_Wabit /u/Pokepen /u/Thebestaround555 /u/goatlink /u/my-name-is- /u/seanbeanskiller /u/spectremagic /u/upvotegod98 /u/vexoskeleton [http://i.imgur.com/X8cbPJD.png Here it is.] '''Text version:''' Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik | Puff, Captain Falcon, Peach | Ice Climbers, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Yoshi | Ganondorf, Mario, Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong | Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Ness, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, Kirby, Bowser. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Scrubjr|Scrubjr]] ([[User talk:Scrubjr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Scrubjr|contribs]]) 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)</small>
 :We report tier lists from one source only: [[SBR]] [[User:Serpent King|<span style="font-family:Chiller; font-size:18px; color:rgb(220, 85, 0); text-shadow:0px 0px 3px DarkGray;">Serpent<span style="font-size:12pt;>∞</span>King</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent King|(<span style="font-family:Chiller; font-size:18px;">talk</span>)]] 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
-::But Smash Backroom was closed. {{unsigned|Scrubjr|01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)}}
+::But Smash Backroom was closed. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Scrubjr|Scrubjr]] ([[User talk:Scrubjr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Scrubjr|contribs]]) 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)</small>
 :::Right. We still are not taking tier lists from outside sources though. Just the way it is for the time being. Also, please remember to sign your comments. [[User:Serpent King|<span style="font-family:Chiller; font-size:18px; color:rgb(220, 85, 0); text-shadow:0px 0px 3px DarkGray;">Serpent<span style="font-size:12pt;>∞</span>King</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent King|(<span style="font-family:Chiller; font-size:18px;">talk</span>)]] 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
@@ Line 169: / Line 163: @@
 :Yeah, we should.
 :Though, the S4BR tier list also involved ''voting'' 1-10 for characters. Also, some people (like ZeRo) don't agree that Diddy Kong is #1. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 03:44, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
+::Except as far as things seem, S4BR actually ''does'' take it seriously. I'm not sure why you're being so stubborn about this. Plus, Bayonetta is top tier currently (and most likely will be for the forseeable future), not Diddy, so I don't see how that's relevant here. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 03:46, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
+::''"Though, the S4BR tier list also involved ''voting'' 1-10 for characters.''"
+::Did you actually [https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list-v3.445995/ read the procedure] of it? They did not do a simple 1-10 voting and then averaging the result system like the PGR tier list.
+::''"Also, some people (like ZeRo) don't agree that Diddy Kong is #1.''"
+::"Some people" and Zero are irrelevant when the voting of the PGR tier list would have rated him #1 on it if joke votes and outliers were accounted for; no sane player taking it seriously would rate Diddy Kong a 4, and no proper voting system would allow a single joke/outlier vote to tank a character's score enough to single-handily cost them the #1 spot (nor should the reverse situation happen where someone rated Ganon a 10 and single-handily rose him up a few spots). You also seem to like appealing to authority here, yet ignore that the SBR tier list involved voting from top players and other players highly knowledgeable about the game, while unlike the PGR tier list, had a proper methodology behind it and the people behind it taking it seriously. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:03, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
+::If you haven't, you should really read the [https://xx.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5ruzz7/pgrv2_concludes_with_character_tier_list_results/ reddit thread] of the PG tier list, to see indepth how bad the methodology behind it was, the questionable seriousness of those involved with it, and the general community rejection of the tier list. Also I was wrong about Diddy getting a 4, he was given a ''3''. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:21, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
+:::The procedure in S4BR isn't as flawed as PG, but is nevertheless unreliable. Some of the jokes I keep hearing around me is that "surely these top players know how to use [[Dr. Mario (SSB4)]] and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSB4)]]," meaning these players are not qualified to judge other characters since they probably have never used them in a tournament setting.
+:::But, the point here isn't to discredit anyone's opinion on the tier list, criticize the algorithm used in grading these characters, or to be "stubborn about this" (as DisasterFlare put it). The point is that we have to look at these lists objectively (even if we disagree with them) and place them somewhere in this this Wiki because, as of now, we're an official wing of Smashboards, or rather, we are the talking heads of top players' opinions. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 19:49, 3 April 2017 (EDT)
+::::"''Some of the jokes I keep hearing around me is that "surely these top players know how to use [[Dr. Mario (SSB4)]] and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSB4)]]," meaning these players are not qualified to judge other characters since they probably have never used them in a tournament setting.""
+::::Some people disagreeing with certain characters' placement doesn't equal an flawed methodology, there's gonna be people disagreeing with something of any tier list possible, especially in Smash 4 where every lower tier character has some group of people swearing them to be underrated. That is pure subjectivity, and those cited characters don't even have anything obvious that show their placements to be unfounded.
+::::"''The point is that we have to look at these lists objectively''"
+::::Looking at the tier lists objectively shows the PGR tier list to be a joke, there is nothing subjective about the terrible methodology behind it, and there is nothing subjective about how the community rejected it.
+::::"''because, as of now, we're an official wing of Smashboards, or rather, we are the talking heads of top players' opinions.''"
+::::The wiki reports on the Smashboards tier list as the authoritative source because of one, the Smash Back Rooms have consistently put out the most credible tier lists with both a respectable authority and solid methodology behind them, and two, the Smashboards tier list is the most generally accepted tier list among the community. If the PGR were to put out a new list with a proper methodology behind it and picks up serious traction among the community, then we can start talking about which tier list to put on this page. Until then, it can be relegated to its own article separate from this page. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:45, 3 April 2017 (EDT)
+== [Formerly the April Fools Success or Failure Discussion] ==
+If it was a failure, what could I have done to make it better? That way, I can step it up a notch for next year's April Fools by doing something asanine. Also, what was the best part about the edits to the page? I'd like to know, really. [[User:Enigma|Enigma]] ([[User talk:Enigma|talk]]) 15:04, 2 April 2017 (EDT)
+:Why talk about it on here? If you want to talk about improving April Fools' for next year, take it to [[SmashWiki talk:April Fools']]. [[User:MHStarCraft|'''<font color="skyblue">MH</font>''']][[User talk:MHStarCraft|'''<font color="blue">StarCraft</font>''']] [[File:Mega Man X SNES sprite.png|19px]] 15:10, 2 April 2017 (EDT)
+::Huh, I never saw that there was an April Fools Talk. Well, I might end up trying to think of a different topic we could talk about. Thanks. [[User:Enigma|Enigma]] ([[User talk:Enigma|talk]]) 08:30, 3 April 2017 (EDT)
+==FAQs==
+Since this page is starting to grow in size with various statements, why don't we add a FAQs section to it, or even create its own separate page? Newcomers being deluded into tier lists can then come and refer to it here so they know what these lists are and what they aren't. For example, briefly explain they were not meant to predict tournament wins or that skill can be in fact a much better factor than character choice. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 21:04, 24 June 2017 (EDT)
+:Ignoring your questionable stance and ethics when it comes to covering tiers (no one cares that you think newcomers are deluded, we're an encyclopedia, not an editorial), I don't see a need to include an FAQ page; the opinions of SmashWiki editors would potentially start to show in it, and it sets a bad precedent, as no other article on SmashWiki features such an FAQ.
+:As for your suggestions regarding explanations for what tiers are and aren't, be bold and add it to the page. If it rocks, people will add onto it, if it sucks, it'll get deleted and someone is going to explain what you did wrong. And if you don't think you can pull it off all at once, try creating a draft on your userpage like I've done for the past 9ish years. If it rocks, people will tell you why, if it sucks, people will tell you why. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qHioAexrfU Just go for it!!]
+:--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  16:06, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+::Cool.
+::Now that that's out of the way, how come there is an opinion piece being advertised here? That looks more like an editorial. That's why I think it should be in its own "See also" section, because it's still useful. Some pages on Wikipedia also have useful essays in the main space but aren't being treated like fact, but rather as a guide to what one should believe. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 19:21, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+:::Frankly, it's not an opinion piece at this point. The overwhelming bulk of evidence supports tiers as existing, and as the essay covers the existence of tiers, it makes the most sense for it to be linked under that specific section.
+:::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  21:50, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+:::Tier lists exist, and are valid for the scope that they represent. An argument that supports it would only help back up the fact that they exist.
+:::"But random user on the internet, tiers aren't legit!"
+:::'''Yes they are'''. Hillary lost, get over it. [[Special:Contributions/74.82.35.43|74.82.35.43]] 21:44, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+::::I understand you mean well, but can you please leave politics out of it? Or at the very least, avoid being so obtuse?
+::::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  21:50, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+:::::One thing that I think is odd is that this is pretty much the only page on the wiki that links to a userspace page (the treatise, obviously). That's always irked me and it comes off as a bit unprofessional and inconsistent. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 22:31, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
+::::See, that's the thing. Game imbalances in mechanics and movesets in games like this one and Street Fighter causes some characters to be perceivably better than others. That's what tiers are. But while the work "Treatise on the Existence of Tiers" deals with a subject that virtually all of us see as true, it is so highly opinionated (its condescending tone attests to this) it doesn't belong in the mainspace. The fact that the work is almost entirely made up of counterarguments to anti-tiers makes it an opinion. The section on this page "Existence of tiers" is already pretty persuasive but that's a lot more neutral than having something as unprofessional as having an essay in the mainspace.
+::::Besides, if we were to move it to the "See also" section it's probably not going to damage its visibility or credibility. Or at least I notice what's in these sections. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 00:40, 28 June 2017 (EDT)
+To answer the original question: A "FAQs" section doesn't fit in an encyclopedia, and it would just duplicate the information already on the page. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Breegull 06:25, 28 June 2017 (EDT)
+:Yeah, this has been addressed. Now it's more whether the essay belongs in its own section given it's more subjective. —[[User: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier</font>]] ([[User talk: Tiers_nonexistent|<font color="Purple">List</font>]]) <font color="Aqua">|</font> [[File:Isohunt.jpg|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Tiers_nonexistent|Look what I've done!!!]] 00:41, 29 June 2017 (EDT)
+== SSB4 tier list renders ==
+Can we please use the official character renders instead of the ugly, hard-to-read, unofficial screenshot portraits? [[User:MassiveheroSoccerguy|MassiveheroSoccerguy]] ([[User talk:MassiveheroSoccerguy|talk]]) 09:58, 10 August 2017 (EDT)