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Talk:Tier list/Archive 6: Difference between revisions
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== new SSB64 tier list == | == new SSB64 tier list == | ||
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:::"''it will never be accurate or even effective at deciding the utility and of each character''" | :::"''it will never be accurate or even effective at deciding the utility and of each character''" | ||
:::Look up tournament results kid, the best players of higher tier characters perform consistently better than the best players of lower tier characters. Here's the articles for [[Apex 2012]], | :::Look up tournament results kid, the best players of higher tier characters perform consistently better than the best players of lower tier characters. Here's the articles for [[Apex 2012]], {{b|SKTAR|tournament}}, [[SRT]], and [[Apex 2013]], the most prestigious Brawl nationals in the past year and a half. Tell me how many Ganondorfs and other low tier characters you see high up, compared to the amount of Meta Knights and other high tier characters. These tier lists are certainly accurate in their intended function of ranking how competitively viable each character is. | ||
:::"''is stupid because it does not agree with you, you and every person who believes that the tier list is effective are deluded''" | :::"''is stupid because it does not agree with you, you and every person who believes that the tier list is effective are deluded''" | ||
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Ban me I really could not care less, I will go to a sight where they can show at least some signs of intelligence, so all in all fuck you, nice day you grammar Nazi have fun with hypocrisy, and proving another point of mine, oh by the way nice use of the word retarded you immature little fuck, it seems like every tier lover cannot defend their stance they can only attack the other side so suck it bitches (by the way this is pointed at Omega Tyrant, I at least have some respect for Toomai)--Nothing I shoot ever gets back up again 18:46, 12 June 2013 (EDT) | Ban me I really could not care less, I will go to a sight where they can show at least some signs of intelligence, so all in all fuck you, nice day you grammar Nazi have fun with hypocrisy, and proving another point of mine, oh by the way nice use of the word retarded you immature little fuck, it seems like every tier lover cannot defend their stance they can only attack the other side so suck it bitches (by the way this is pointed at Omega Tyrant, I at least have some respect for Toomai)--Nothing I shoot ever gets back up again 18:46, 12 June 2013 (EDT) | ||
:"I can't refute you so I'll just attack you". Enjoy your vacation troll. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:41, 12 June 2013 (EDT) | :"I can't refute you so I'll just attack you". Enjoy your vacation troll. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:41, 12 June 2013 (EDT) | ||
::Omega, I understand your points and I could see how you could be frustrated by this article and discussion. But calling people assholes and trolls is completely unprofessional, and as an admin, that's ridiculously shameful, not just for you, but for the wiki as well. You can make a point without using profound language and insults. [[User:Smashbrother101|Smashbrother101]] ([[User talk:Smashbrother101|talk]]) 18:22, 25 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
:::Uh what? The word "asshole" has never been used on this page (except for in your post). And "troll" isn't even close to a bad word. Also if you didn't know, [[SW:NOT|SmashWiki is not censored]]. [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font><font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font><font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] 18:29, 25 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
::::I'm not going to add my opinion to this discussion, but calling someone an "ass" is basically the same as calling someone an "asshole". Use common sense and logic, especially when it comes to policy violations. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 20:05, 30 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
:::::No not really dude, they are different words with different meanings. There's a reason why "ass" is freely allowed on tv while "asshole" gets bleeped. Surely I don't need to explain the difference? There's also no policy violation going on, so yeah, take your advice and use "common sense and logic". <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:32, 30 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
::::::It's common sense to figure out that when the IP typed "asshole", he probably misread or mistyped or wasn't paying attention and meant to write "ass" instead. And I never said that Scr7 or anyone was violating a policy, I was telling the "use common sense" to him so he would know next time something like this happens. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 21:02, 30 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
:::::::"''but calling someone an "ass" is basically the same as calling someone an "asshole".''" | |||
:::::::No, you were not at all saying "the user probably mistook ass for asshole", you were saying the terms are the same (and if the user did for whatever reason, Scr7 is fully in the right here still, as they are pretty different terms and it's quite an egregious error on the user's part). And if you're "not trying to say anyone is violating policy", why say "especially when it comes to policy violations", implying some sort of policy violation is going on here? | |||
:::::::Really, what's your point in commenting here? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:24, 30 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
:::See what Scr7 said above, and you could have a point about calling someone a troll...if the person actually wasn't a troll (you know what a troll is, right?). Also, stop bumping this discussion every month or so with a useless post, the discussion has been long and done, let it rest already. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:55, 30 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
+1 "I think we should delete the first two sentences about the controversy. It's not neutral." rewrite entire part. | |||
what else can i say? tier/non tier im neither and both and every new player wouldnt waste a thot about balance of character, but rather who they want to choose to play with. but thats just my opinion on discussion page with no value it doesnt matter. the fact is stated on the.. wait let me look..."http://www.ssbwiki.com"-wiki what a shameful name in regard of this discussion | |||
i know i know ur all more into tier vs non tier fight and im not really into rewriting wiki parts either | |||
maybe somebody will have a few mins to do that, since a wiki serves and represents all of the fandom and not just 1 half of them, who happen to be in some sort of powerful position at a wiki article page o.O *cough* abusing that power in their own favor *cough*(no srsly i think thats necessary in order to keep the page free from trolls but WITHIN REASON) | |||
i have 2 stylistic suggestions for rewriting person, 1 is 'There are arguments from both sides pro/contra blabla' and other is mentioning JUST the ones, that are in doubt about tiers. that would naturally be the case if tiers were commonly accepted by whoever wrote the entire controversy part, but writing in such a style and leaving it at that for a long time just makes me think, that the writers are in doubt themselves and on top of that they manage to infuriate educated fans while misleading the next generation and only because of their humongous ego. | |||
its not like changing the sentences into something, that looks more appropriate, would have any negative effects on any of the gathered data on tiers in any possible way. | |||
now for the validity - while i think, that not a single person would waste a second thinking about characters balance when starting the game, im pretty sure, that many people would spontaneously agree to saying, that the characters are balanced, if they were specifically asked or asked in a suggestive way. and thats natural, nobody needs to go all interested professor einstein pro gamer researching 5years just for a 5minute game, but it has little to do with the people, that are eager to prove the others wrong, call them tier/non tier or w.e, i call them humans, just like me n u. u would get or invent or w.e a quick agreement or result and abuse it to prove others wrong or yourself right, but what u should be doing instead is to always leave an opening for each type of opinion, it doesnt even need to be mentioned, but it should not appear just dead wrong in the first place. | |||
perhaps, the authors of the controversy part found it to be appropriate for whatever reason possible or they didnt care about that at all and were just trying to prove their point like a fanatic scientist(note fanatic, because even a sane scientist is capable of writing a wiki part much better than that). this issue covers questions of right/wrong and, game situations, weve all been in("i wanted that guy!"), but it isnt a game nor a debate of right or wrong, it is an encyclopedic article, that is supposed to inform the reader, who can be a potential tier dude or a non tier dude(non tier dude will certainly be angry reading hes wrong). and to make that clear, non tier ppl do not need to prove anything, because the people who participate in this discussion are primarily interested in the option of the doubt - that both partys can end up being right or wrong. the reader is either convinced by the evaluated test results or (s)he is not, but saying, that (s)he is wrong in 1st place is not going to contribute to anything positive. in case of tiers being entirely correct(which is not going to be provable not only due to human ineterest/mood/error/w.e, but also because many of the arguments tier/nontier have a certain validity in each of their situation, while the tiers themselves are more of a system than an argument and its quite obvious that both tier and non tier people come across issues within that system), the TIER GUYS have to make clear what on earth tiers are supposed to mean, THEY have to deliver recreatable proof, and THEY have to write the article in a reader-friendly way. | |||
there have been both tier and non tier ppl in this very discussion who proved to be competent enough to comprehend the importance of maintaining that neutrality within the article. | |||
despite the text, i hope u can see the +1, because thats the only argument, that matters, when arguing with fools - and everybody is prone to human stupidity, even geniuses or those who have contributed alot to society <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:95.208.250.235|95.208.250.235]] ([[User talk:95.208.250.235|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/95.208.250.235|contribs]]) 20:10, 22 July 2013 (EDT)</small> | |||
:Your spelling and grammar issues, in combination with your large wall of text that (as far as I can tell) doesn't say much other than "you should rewrite this to let the misinformed stay misinformed", make us uninterested in discussing things with you. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The SMASH-GINEER 20:22, 22 July 2013 (EDT) | |||
== Icons == | == Icons == | ||
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:::That said, I would suggest changing the icons to be larger, to the size of the Melee and 64 icons. Brawl icons look pretty small now that I think of it. ''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]]'''''[[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]]''' 15:35, 20 October 2011 (EDT) | :::That said, I would suggest changing the icons to be larger, to the size of the Melee and 64 icons. Brawl icons look pretty small now that I think of it. ''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]]'''''[[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]]''' 15:35, 20 October 2011 (EDT) | ||
::::I believe the reason the Brawl icons are of that size is because then they match the stage icons given by the game. So we'd have to redo all those as well. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 17:10, 20 October 2011 (EDT) | ::::I believe the reason the Brawl icons are of that size is because then they match the stage icons given by the game. So we'd have to redo all those as well. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 17:10, 20 October 2011 (EDT) | ||
:::::How do you make those icons anyway? [[User:Zeldasmash|<font color="gold">'''Zelda'''</font><font color="green">'''smash'''</font>]][[File:ZeldaSymbol. | :::::How do you make those icons anyway? [[User:Zeldasmash|<font color="gold">'''Zelda'''</font><font color="green">'''smash'''</font>]][[File:ZeldaSymbol.svg|25px]][[User talk:Zeldasmash|''<span style="color: darkblue;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 19:56, 20 October 2011 (EDT) | ||
I think the descision has been made, but I'll '''oppose''' just in case. It's nice to see something more different, instead of just the normal artwork. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">'''Toast'''</font><font color="maroon">'''Ultimatum'''</font>]] [[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|''<span style="color: silver;">'''Complaints Box'''</span>'']] 08:23, 21 October 2011 (EDT) | I think the descision has been made, but I'll '''oppose''' just in case. It's nice to see something more different, instead of just the normal artwork. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">'''Toast'''</font><font color="maroon">'''Ultimatum'''</font>]] [[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|''<span style="color: silver;">'''Complaints Box'''</span>'']] 08:23, 21 October 2011 (EDT) | ||
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:::#Your argument is utter bullshit. What you said amounts to saying, "the tier list is wrong because tournament rules suck." The tier list is only made in the scope of competitive play. Yes, Free for Alls, final smashes, and items don't mean a thing when it comes to determining a character's competitive worth. | :::#Your argument is utter bullshit. What you said amounts to saying, "the tier list is wrong because tournament rules suck." The tier list is only made in the scope of competitive play. Yes, Free for Alls, final smashes, and items don't mean a thing when it comes to determining a character's competitive worth. | ||
:::#Why don't you fucking read [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]], and respond properly to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|it]]. Well made arguments tailored specifically to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]] are the only arguments that would be taken as "logical and irrefutable." Again, on behalf of OT, I will ask this. In the scope of competitive play (no items, final smashes, 1v1, 4 stock(melee)/3 stock(brawl) 8 mins, tournament legal stages only) how the hell can Melee Kirby be just as good Melee Jigglypuff or how can brawl Ganondorf be just as good as Snake? In fact you should really think about that first before responding to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]].--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 14:19, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | :::#Why don't you fucking read [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]], and respond properly to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|it]]. Well made arguments tailored specifically to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]] are the only arguments that would be taken as "logical and irrefutable." Again, on behalf of OT, I will ask this. In the scope of competitive play (no items, final smashes, 1v1, 4 stock(melee)/3 stock(brawl) 8 mins, tournament legal stages only) how the hell can Melee Kirby be just as good Melee Jigglypuff or how can brawl Ganondorf be just as good as Snake? In fact you should really think about that first before responding to [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|this]].--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 14:19, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | ||
"''My third point is the most effective anti-tier slogan yet. "All the good players look at the tier list, choose high-tiered characters, and get new strategies for them, reinforcing their position on the tier list." I know this is'nt anti-tier, but It makes sence considering the above two points. (I think this has been answered, but I forget where.)''" | |||
Dude, blindly repeating arguments that were refuted in the treatise is something '''I explicitly state not to do, and it is a banworthy offense'''. Now drop it. | |||
"''My fourth point is about clones. Clones are slightly different than their origionals, '''and usually worse'''''" | |||
The instant you say any character to be worse, is the instant you admit characters are not equal, and thus tiers exist. | |||
2/10, your argument, while wordy, is just as bad as other anti-tiers'. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:48, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
:::::Woah. I believe tiers exist. I always have. I'm just saying they're effect on the game is miniscule, or at least would be if the smash community wouldnt take them so seriously. My computer keeps on freezing and I can't log in so I'll write the rest later. -Meta Ike [[Special:Contributions/76.14.31.161|76.14.31.161]] 16:45, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
::::::You're arguing for nothing then. And if you think their effect was "so miniscule", you're clearly ignorant of the game. Look at some [http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=132034 monetary] [http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=140871 data]. Notice a trend? Yeah, the higher tier characters are raking in much more money (especially Meta Knight), while low/bottom tiers bring in hardly anything (and don't go saying it's because "everyone only plays high tiers", Olimar doesn't have much players yet he's one of the most successful characters, and the low tier characters still have a dedicated playerbase as pointed out to you). Also actually look at some tournament results (especially nationals), tell us how often you see the likes of Ganondorf and co. placing high, in comparison to higher tier characters. And if their effect was "miniscule", {{Sm|Vinnie}} wouldn't have become of the best players in the world when he dropped G&W for the Ice Climbers, countless other players wouldn't have started placing better when they picked up Meta Knight, and low tier heroes like Mekos, Vermanubis, and Gimpyfish would be placing in the money regularly, instead of once in a great while squeaking out an almost money earning placing. | |||
::::::(Also don't go on about how that's only under competitive rules, because guess what, the tier list refers to competitive play only, and if you think no one should play with such rules and only crazy FFAs with items and wacky stages, we don't care, argue that on Smashboards). | |||
::::::You should just drop this, as you're just wasting yours and everyone's else time, especially if you don't even have a clear argument against tiers. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:23, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
I feel like dropping in just to blot out your initial fifth point, saying that "With that many options, every card has 3 counters, pretty much nullifieng tier lists forever". The competitive Pokémon world has hundreds of fully-evolved Pokémon available for usage, and there are currently a total of seven regular [[bulbapedia:tier|tiers]] based on commonness, metagame, and overall usefulness. Simply having more choices does not make tier lists less relevant. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 17:40, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
In relation to the above point, I'll also like to point out that characters higher up on the tier list are better because ''they tend to have more options, that are also usually better options''. Meta Knight for example, is considered so far above everyone else, because for every option they have, he has three options that can beat theirs. Ganondorf on the other hand, is considered so poorly because for every option he has, almost every other character has two or more options that beats it. I didn't go into much detail, but hopefully you get the point that argument is null because not everyone has an equal amount of options and equal quality of options. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:58, 28 June 2013 (EDT) | |||
== Eleventh Melee Tier List == | |||
Here it is. [http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-results-posted.336113/] [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font><font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font><font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] 05:09, 27 July 2013 (EDT) | |||