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Talk:Tier list/Archive 5: Difference between revisions
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{{Archive | {{Archive}} | ||
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==Inaccuracy== | ==Inaccuracy== | ||
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::The update was made today. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:37, February 27, 2010 (UTC) | ::The update was made today. <span style="border:2px outset blue;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:37, February 27, 2010 (UTC) | ||
i wish people KNEW what a tier is i know they are real but i still don't like the melee tier but that does'nt mean i don't believe it also im the guy who said the floor glitch is real but hard to do it's about 60% of the time i fail. | i wish people KNEW what a tier is i know they are real but i still don't like the melee tier but that does'nt mean i don't believe it also im the guy who said the floor glitch is real but hard to do it's about 60% of the time i fail. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:67.70.21.80|67.70.21.80]] ([[User talk:67.70.21.80|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.70.21.80|contribs]]) </small> | ||
:Please don't make an account if this is going to be indicative of the quality of the posting you do with it. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC) | :Please don't make an account if this is going to be indicative of the quality of the posting you do with it. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:13, March 3, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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I Dont see why this tierthing is so controversial, heres my take; the highest tiers arent the best characters, they're just the easiest to master, i mean think about it, Meta Knight is quite clearly easier to master then Ganondorf, but if you take time to master Ganondorf, then Ganondorf can be much better then Meta Knight, just saying..... | I Dont see why this tierthing is so controversial, heres my take; the highest tiers arent the best characters, they're just the easiest to master, i mean think about it, Meta Knight is quite clearly easier to master then Ganondorf, but if you take time to master Ganondorf, then Ganondorf can be much better then Meta Knight, just saying..... | ||
I know what you mean. I can't kill crap with meta knight but i use Ganondorf as an alternate. | I know what you mean. I can't kill crap with meta knight but i use Ganondorf as an alternate.File:MG4.png|50px[[User:EvilGRAHAM 0|<b><span style="color: Red">EvilGRAHAM 0</span></b>]]<sup>[[User talk:EvilGRAHAM 0|Mmmm Free Goo!]]</sup> 02:48, March 31, 2010 (UTC) | ||
A tier list is basically peoples opinions of characters from different games. I do think that tiers don't exist and people should play whoever they main in order to win. Like some [[Wario (SSBB)|Wario]] mains actually beat Meta Knight and | A tier list is basically peoples opinions of characters from different games. I do think that tiers don't exist and people should play whoever they main in order to win. Like some [[Wario (SSBB)|Wario]] mains actually beat Meta Knight and [Lengendary Pikachu]] beating a Meta Knight in teams. I also play [[Dr. Mario (SSBM)|Doc]] a lot better than [[Fox (SSBM)| Fox]] in Melee. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:64.252.147.155|64.252.147.155]] ([[User talk:64.252.147.155|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/64.252.147.155|contribs]]) 00:13, April 17, 2010 (UTC)</small> | ||
:If you think tiers don't exist, [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|read this]]. Oh, and that last phrase you added (that has been removed) is often grounds for blocking. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 00:20, April 17, 2010 (UTC) | :If you think tiers don't exist, [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|read this]]. Oh, and that last phrase you added (that has been removed) is often grounds for blocking. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 00:20, April 17, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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Both arguments over tiers have a point. Some characters have better attributes than other characters. However, it also takes skill to do well with these characters. As many know, the tier list is not set in stone; it is more of a guideline. It is possible for a player using Ganondorf to beat another player using Meta Knight. A higher tier means that the character has an advantage over another character; it does not mean that a high tier character will always win. If a player has significant skill enough to consistently win with a low tier character, that (drawn from the logic of the tiers) player has more Smashing awesomeness than someone who always wins with a high tier. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Mattbell888|Mattbell888]] ([[User talk:Mattbell888|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mattbell888|contribs]]) 14:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)</small> | Both arguments over tiers have a point. Some characters have better attributes than other characters. However, it also takes skill to do well with these characters. As many know, the tier list is not set in stone; it is more of a guideline. It is possible for a player using Ganondorf to beat another player using Meta Knight. A higher tier means that the character has an advantage over another character; it does not mean that a high tier character will always win. If a player has significant skill enough to consistently win with a low tier character, that (drawn from the logic of the tiers) player has more Smashing awesomeness than someone who always wins with a high tier. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Mattbell888|Mattbell888]] ([[User talk:Mattbell888|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mattbell888|contribs]]) 14:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)</small> | ||
:It is made quite clear in this article and [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|the treatise]] that skill matters more than tiers. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:18, April 20, 2010 (UTC) | :It is made quite clear in this article and [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|the treatise]] that skill matters more than tiers. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:18, April 20, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::your a dumb shit, it goes by the matchups. and wario WAS 3rd until they found out that he was not THAT good and u mostly see metaknights, snakes, and diddy kongs win tournaments. 1,2,3 and yes he is 3rd | ::your a dumb shit, it goes by the matchups. and wario WAS 3rd until they found out that he was not THAT good and u mostly see metaknights, snakes, and diddy kongs win tournaments. 1,2,3 and yes he is 3rd <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:76.29.165.244|76.29.165.244]] ([[User talk:76.29.165.244|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/76.29.165.244|contribs]]) </small> | ||
Remember, no personal attacks, and skill matters more than tiers because, if you are skilled enough with Ganondorf you could beat M2K, when he is playing as Meta Knight. Also the tiers are for the characters that are more easily mastered than other characters, not who is better. [[User:4DJONG]] ([[User talk:4DJONG|talk]]) | Remember, no personal attacks, and skill matters more than tiers because, if you are skilled enough with Ganondorf you could beat M2K, when he is playing as Meta Knight. Also the tiers are for the characters that are more easily mastered than other characters, not who is better. [[User:4DJONG]] ([[User talk:4DJONG|talk]]) | ||
::::Incorrect. The tier list only matters when all characters are mastered. If it was simply based on learning curve then characters such as Olimar would be at the bottom. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 18:02, May 16, 2010 (UTC) | ::::Incorrect. The tier list only matters when all characters are mastered. If it was simply based on learning curve then characters such as Olimar would be at the bottom. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 18:02, May 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
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:::::::Ya. Too much. [[User:.....|.....]] ([[User talk:.....|talk]]) 17:24, 3 March 2011 (EST) | :::::::Ya. Too much. [[User:.....|.....]] ([[User talk:.....|talk]]) 17:24, 3 March 2011 (EST) | ||
::::::::In theory, no Smashwiki articles should have any trivia at all. In fact, one of my projects is to integrate trivia information with the rest of their articles. Doc, if you have a piece of information that you feel is worthy for the article, actually put it in the article, not in a miscellaneous section. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 20:27, 3 March 2011 (EST) | ::::::::In theory, no Smashwiki articles should have any trivia at all. In fact, one of my projects is to integrate trivia information with the rest of their articles. Doc, if you have a piece of information that you feel is worthy for the article, actually put it in the article, not in a miscellaneous section. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 20:27, 3 March 2011 (EST) | ||
:::::::::Just like I told Mr. Dots, pay attention to the timestamps, this conversation is months old and was resolved. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:00, 4 March 2011 (EST) | |||
== Sakurai balanced all Smash Bros. games == | |||
I think that is something very important to add to the article. Read more details on this tidbit here: http://wii.ign.com/articles/117/1174416p1.html [[User:TorchicBlaziken|TorchicBlaziken]] ([[User talk:TorchicBlaziken|talk]]) 17:38, 14 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
:Tier lists are potentials of each characters. Besides, we have a whole treaty on that kind of thing. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 17:55, 14 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
:While there's no doubt the games were created with balance in mind, it is irrelevant to the subject of the article. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:56, 14 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
:What I meant is that when it says "that it would be almost impossible for developers to balance a game of unlike characters, because the differing properties of each character produce a huge number of variables that cannot successfully be monitored and modified for the purpose of balance. Thus, developers cannot foresee top-level strategies, and even deliberate efforts will not balance a game at a professional level" it would be useful to add that only one person was put to the task of balancing them. Only the release of the next Smash Bros. will prove or disprove that the combined brainpower of SSB developers can successfully balance the game. [[User:TorchicBlaziken|TorchicBlaziken]] ([[User talk:TorchicBlaziken|talk]]) 18:08, 16 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
::The article is not about that though :/ <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 18:13, 16 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
:It's definitely more likely that having more developers leads to a better-balanced game, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll be better balanced competitively - remember, Smash Bros. was never designed to be competitive. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 18:31, 16 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
::I think everybody likes every character balanced. Some people like Isai and Mew2king for some reason, uses the "Top tier" characters although competitive people think Pikachu, Fox and Meta Knight are the best because there leading the their own tier list. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|Right on.]] [[File:CaptainFalconHeadSSBB.png|20px]] 19:43, 16 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
:::That post would belong on a forum, not in this discussion. <font face="Megadeth, Arial Black">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="#FF2400">DoctorPain99</font>]] [[User talk:Dr. Pain 99|(Talk •]] [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|Contribs)]]</font> [[file:DoctorPain99.png|19px]] 19:44, 16 June 2011 (EDT) | |||
== Individual Matchups == | |||
(diff | hist) . . m Tier list; 23:04 . . (-245) . . Omega Tyrant (Talk | contribs) (Undid edit by Doc King: Unnecessary, it mentions that individual matchups can affect a tier placement.) | |||
It actually is necessary because mentioning that can show more detail on how tier list work. It would be an important thing to add to this article, especially when one of the games in the series has an overdominant character called [[Meta Knight (SSBB)|Meta Knight]]. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 19:14, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
:If you read my edit summary and what you were editing, you would see that it already mentions that matchups affect the tier list, just that they don't determine it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:29, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
::Well, it's kind of hard to tell whether or not we should put this on there. I mean, Wolf's better matchup against MK did determine a little bit of his Tier placement (2nd biggest rise in Brawl history). Although if you mean determine by completely 100 percent making a characters placement, then it shouldn't be there. It really depends on what you mean by determine. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 19:49, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
:::For your example, I disagree with saying Wolf's rise was due to a slightly disadvantageous MK matchup. Wolf has won the 9th most money in tournaments, and I guarantee that is most responsible for his great rise on the recent list. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:58, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
::::Well, I have read the Smash Boards forum of the tier list and it said Wolf rised a lot being the fact that his mk matchup is better than the characters he rised above. Although I find your reasoning on Wolf as an acceptable exaplanation as to why Wolf rised on the Tier list. However, there's one problem with that. Wolf could be winning the 9th most money in tourney because of mk and you see mks often in tournaments. This looks like something we should probably ask and/or debate on Smash Boards. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 20:06, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
:::::Did the BBR said that themselves, or is it just random people claiming that in their forum posts? I read what the BBR said in the OP when the tier list came out, and they mentioned nothing about Wolf rising because of his perceived matchup against Meta Knight. As for the MK matchup leading to his tourney success, that's irrelevant. We're looking at the tourney results, not possible factors leading to those results. | |||
:::::If Wolf's tourney success was mediocre, then I could possibly agree with using him as an example for how a matchup could positively influence his tier position. But as I pointed out, his tourney success is certainly not mediocre, and with that, his not so bad MK matchup is certainly not noteworthy enough to mention here. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:20, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
::::::http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306431 if you look down to where it says Character movement explained, you'll see it written where Wolf's Brawl icon is. Also this was put on there a few days after the list came out. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 21:07, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
:::::::It does mention that, but it points out the tourney success I mentioned, as well as his other above average matchups. As such, that one matchup is not the reason Wolf rose. There's also the fact that the example you were trying to add simply doesn't fit into the paragraph you were adding it to. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:23, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||
::::::::You're right OT. Like he has a positive matchup against Olimar and it did mention about his tourney success. [[User:Doc King|Doc King]] ([[User talk:Doc King|talk]]) 22:14, 27 August 2011 (EDT) | |||