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== The rewrite == | == The rewrite == | ||
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Excuse me? He's actually making a good point here. Clones: Pretty much the exact same gameplay and properties. Semi-clones: Based on another character, with differing properties and animations. Differences can wildly vary but they are different enough. Example of clone: Daisy, Lucina, Dark Pit, Ken. Example of semi-clone: Dr Mario, Pichu, Wolf, Young Link --[[Special:Contributions/86.163.147.208|86.163.147.208]] 16:08, 10 February 2019 (EST) | Excuse me? He's actually making a good point here. Clones: Pretty much the exact same gameplay and properties. Semi-clones: Based on another character, with differing properties and animations. Differences can wildly vary but they are different enough. Example of clone: Daisy, Lucina, Dark Pit, Ken. Example of semi-clone: Dr Mario, Pichu, Wolf, Young Link --[[Special:Contributions/86.163.147.208|86.163.147.208]] 16:08, 10 February 2019 (EST) | ||
:Once again, the above comment is made by the same vandal. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 16:24, 10 February 2019 (EST) | :Once again, the above comment is made by the same vandal. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 16:24, 10 February 2019 (EST) | ||
Yeah, he has a bad rep and all (and I can't say it's undeserved), but this information is still completely valid, and dismissing it just because the person who added it has a bad rep is both petty and childish. --[[Special:Contributions/173.79.251.80|173.79.251.80]] 18:03, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Unlike Echo figthers, Clones are a concept used exclusively by the players, the developers don't aknowledge them, so there is no point arguing over what developers consider to be a clone in each game, they don't even consider the concept itself to exist. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 05:34, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:This is incorrect; clones are indeed an official concept in earlier games. Melee marks them with recessed boxes on the selection screen, Brawl has no clones and Sakurai said so, and SSB4 places Doc/Lucina/DP outside other characters of their series. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Non-Toxic 06:52, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::This is an interpretation, a pinpointed one, however still an interpretation. Official mean explicit aknowledgement. Of course WE know the recessed boxes were clones, it's obvious, but the game didn't said so, and the dev never said so either. As Doc/Lucina/DP being at the end of the selection list, it's not an aknowledgement they are clone either, it was actually an aknowledgement that they are what would later be known as Echo fighters. I stand by my words : the devs never used once the word "clone", that's something the players came up with, so it's pointless to wonder what the developer consider clones are, they never told, and they never will. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:29, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::And I will even further my comment by explaining why it's pointless : while we, as players, feel the need to separate the characters in specific categories with boundaries, the devs don't actually have this kind of concern. Between a full fleshed brand new character and a perfect copy, they can put the amount of work they want to. There is no requirement for such a clear separation for them. If they want to make a very similar copy, they can do so, but they can also deviate as much as they want. They don't have the need to define "rules" over how unique each character will be, they can make a character 100% identical, 99%, 98%, 97%, etc. For us, it's about categories, for them it's more about a budget decided individually for each character. Ken got more budget than Daisy, Isabelle got less budget than Wolf, that's it. At no point they wondered if Ken was too different from Ryu, or if Isabelle was too similar to the Villager. They don't put the characters into little boxes taged "clones", "semi-clones", or "pseudo-clones" like we do. So it's pointless to wonder what a clone is from the devs perspective as they more about "how unique is it" than "is it a clone". If you want to emulate the devs point of view, you need to replace the categorisation players did by a "clonish rate" in percentage that will be specific to each character. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:29, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Can we not reopen an old talk post, especially with the intentions behind this post? [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 18:02, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:I mean, there's no rule that says they can't do so, since someone could easily bring new information to the table. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:04, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::Isn't there a policy or rule that doesn't allow reopening talk pages? Or is that for closed discussions? Also, there's a huge clone conversation below, so there isn't a point reopening this. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 18:06, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::There is a rule against bringing up previously settled discussions, but not against continuing unsettled ones. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:09, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::Not trying to be a pain here, but how are users like me supposed to know that a talk is closed ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 21:07, March 21, 2019 (EDT) | |||
== Ness and Captain Falcon in SSB == | == Ness and Captain Falcon in SSB == | ||
Since the concept of pseudo-clones has been introduced, I was wondering if Captain Falcon and Ness in Smash 64 fit in this category. Based on the definition of a pseudo-clone on the page, it seems like they probably should be considered pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario, respectively. They're definitely unique enough to not be semi-clones, but since some of their moves are derived from Samus and Mario, should they go into this category? I could be wrong about this, but I think Captain Falcon in SSB shares more moves with Samus than Wolf in Ultimate shares with Fox. Captain Falcon and Ness are definitely unique characters in every game since Melee, but can they be considered Pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario respectively in Smash 64? | Since the concept of pseudo-clones has been introduced, I was wondering if Captain Falcon and Ness in Smash 64 fit in this category. Based on the definition of a pseudo-clone on the page, it seems like they probably should be considered pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario, respectively. They're definitely unique enough to not be semi-clones, but since some of their moves are derived from Samus and Mario, should they go into this category? I could be wrong about this, but I think Captain Falcon in SSB shares more moves with Samus than Wolf in Ultimate shares with Fox. Captain Falcon and Ness are definitely unique characters in every game since Melee, but can they be considered Pseudo-clones of Samus and Mario respectively in Smash 64? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:47.41.244.226|47.41.244.226]] ([[User talk:47.41.244.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.41.244.226|contribs]]) 14:20, February 11, 2019</small> | ||
:According to [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|this list]], Samus and Captain Falcon share about 22% of their moves, which is not enough for pseudo-clone, wihc is 30%. Ness and Mario most likely have a much less similarity percent. So no, both aren't pseudo clones. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 13:21, 19 February 2019 (EST) | :According to [[User:Toomai/Cloneosity|this list]], Samus and Captain Falcon share about 22% of their moves, which is not enough for pseudo-clone, wihc is 30%. Ness and Mario most likely have a much less similarity percent. So no, both aren't pseudo clones. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 13:21, 19 February 2019 (EST) | ||
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Each of the Mii Fighters borrow moves from different characters (such as Mii Gunner sharing moves with Fox and Samus, The Mii Sword Fighter sharing spacials and Arials with Link and Marth, or Mii Brawler sharing special moves with Little Mac) I was wondering if any of the Mii fighters share enough moves to be a Pseudo-Clone or to at least make not of on the page [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:30, 6 March 2019 (EST) | Each of the Mii Fighters borrow moves from different characters (such as Mii Gunner sharing moves with Fox and Samus, The Mii Sword Fighter sharing spacials and Arials with Link and Marth, or Mii Brawler sharing special moves with Little Mac) I was wondering if any of the Mii fighters share enough moves to be a Pseudo-Clone or to at least make not of on the page [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 14:30, 6 March 2019 (EST) | ||
== The Ganondorf, Pichu, and | == The Ganondorf, Young Link, Pichu, and SSB4 Luigi debate == | ||
These | These four have arguably been in two categories. While they share some of their moveset with another character, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi are on the brim, and Young Link is arguably moreso based on the older iteration of Link rather than the current one. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:10, 7 March 2019 (EST) | ||
===Ganondorf is a Semi-Clone=== | ===Ganondorf is a Semi-Clone=== | ||
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#Short answer: Pichu isn't a clone because the game doesn't regard him as such. Also, Pichu's recoil. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 16:22, 9 March 2019 (EST) | #Short answer: Pichu isn't a clone because the game doesn't regard him as such. Also, Pichu's recoil. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 16:22, 9 March 2019 (EST) | ||
# I have to agree that Pichu is a semi-clone, for the same reasons Toon Link is a semi-clone of Link. While it has many shared moves, it also has a completely different skeleton that require different animations in many cases. Its attributes are also different even besides the recoil, such as altered knockback and damage, giving it a lot of general differences that further distinguish it from Pikachu. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2019 (EST) | # I have to agree that Pichu is a semi-clone, for the same reasons Toon Link is a semi-clone of Link. While it has many shared moves, it also has a completely different skeleton that require different animations in many cases. Its attributes are also different even besides the recoil, such as altered knockback and damage, giving it a lot of general differences that further distinguish it from Pikachu. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:38, 9 March 2019 (EST) | ||
===Luigi was a Psudeo-clone in SSB4=== | |||
# With half of his specials, half of his tilts, half of his aerials, his dash and neutral attacks, and a majority of his smash attacks being completely unique, as well as him often being considered on Wolf or Lucas’s level even before Ultimate, i’d say Luigi is justified to be listed as a psudeo-clone in SSB4, despite bieng at 52% on the cloneosity list. However, the list does not include physical attributes, which if they were included, would drop Luigi (and SSBU ‘Dorf) below 50%, which would qualify them as psudeo-clones [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:33, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
===Luigi was a Semi-Clone in SSB4=== | |||
1. | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
Skipping straight to a vote count for this matter is a very poor idea because it makes it difficult for early posters to discuss a difference of opinion with later posters. I would not put a lot of stock in this. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | Skipping straight to a vote count for this matter is a very poor idea because it makes it difficult for early posters to discuss a difference of opinion with later posters. I would not put a lot of stock in this. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 16:32, 9 March 2019 (EST) | ||
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::::Personally, I think the move can only be considered truly unique if the function is vastly different. For example, despite Electroshock Arm having a different move, all it does differently is launh at a lower angle. Roy’s Double edge dance is the same as Marth’s, despite having a different last hit. Meanwhile, Ganondorf’s entire moveset is completely different from Falcon’s in every way possible (frame data, damage, knockback, particle effects, etc.), with the exceptipn of his aerials,grabs, and two of his specials being the same in animation. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:39, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | ::::Personally, I think the move can only be considered truly unique if the function is vastly different. For example, despite Electroshock Arm having a different move, all it does differently is launh at a lower angle. Roy’s Double edge dance is the same as Marth’s, despite having a different last hit. Meanwhile, Ganondorf’s entire moveset is completely different from Falcon’s in every way possible (frame data, damage, knockback, particle effects, etc.), with the exceptipn of his aerials,grabs, and two of his specials being the same in animation. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:39, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::Well, it's not so obvious to me, because different launch angles also means different combos, and that's an important difference for some players. Meanwhile, you could say that having different damages is just a parameter and doesn't have that much impact on the short term gameplay. It's actually hard to give a strong definition to the notion of "similarity" because it's a very subjective word. But yet again, my initial comment was about how it may be time to remove the animation of the equation. I strongly feel that when people started to use the word "clone", they were initially mostly complaining about characters that were similar gameplaywise. But I have no evidence, it's just how it felt to me back then. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:14, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | :::::Well, it's not so obvious to me, because different launch angles also means different combos, and that's an important difference for some players. Meanwhile, you could say that having different damages is just a parameter and doesn't have that much impact on the short term gameplay. It's actually hard to give a strong definition to the notion of "similarity" because it's a very subjective word. But yet again, my initial comment was about how it may be time to remove the animation of the equation. I strongly feel that when people started to use the word "clone", they were initially mostly complaining about characters that were similar gameplaywise. But I have no evidence, it's just how it felt to me back then. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:14, March 13, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::Our main objective is to capture what the ''playerbase at large'' thinks, and I would say it's fairly clear that many people "over-rate" characters as being clones using animations and special move mechanics only; a huge population called Wolf a clone in Brawl just because of his special moves, and Lucina was accepted as a clone quickly after her SSB4 trailer having no gameplay knowledge other than her animations being Marth's. In fact, I would wager (but cannot prove) that the vast majority of players do not care what function is when deciding for themselves whether a move/character is a clone. (It cannot be debated that function does not matter for at least the Melee clones, such as Falco, so this view is not without factual basis.) But we need to balance that with the need to be ''accurate'', and I'd say it's fairly evident that things such a "Wolf is a clone" are not accurate, which is why the additional categories were created: to try and capture the nuances between "character is cloned pretty much entirely", "character is cloned but also has their own things", and "character isn't really a clone (only in some ways) but a lot of people will tell you they are". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Loony 06:51, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I main Wolf, so I know well how short sighted it is to consider him to be a clone of Fox (I main Wolf, yet I can't do shit with Fox). But the thing is still : as long as some people consider two characters to be clones based on a similar gameplays and other consider two characters to be clones based on similar animations, an agreement on which characters are clones can't really happen. Personnally, I wouldn't consider Young Link and Pichu as full clones, the difference in body type and therefore hitboxes is quite important. So again, what are the priorities ? You need to sort out that before arguing, cause if people don't use the same criteria, a concensus is impossible. Maybe we should put two column : gameplay and animation, and then we may all agree that Young Link is a semi-clone gameplay wise and a full clone animationwise. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 11:56, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Heck, maybe we can even start talking about semi-echo and pseudo echo, like maybe Young Link is actually a semi-clone and a semi-echo (different yet similar animations could be what's qualify as a semi-echo)... [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 12:00, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::Let’s not complicate matters. This was only meant to argue Ganondorf’s, Pichu’s, and Young Link’s status, not to create some “semi-echo” status. Frankly, this comments section wasn’t even supposed to exist. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:11, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::And I think you won't find and agreement because you don't all have the same idea about what a clone is supposed to be, that's an issue ;) [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 20:13, March 14, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::The issue isn’t what subtypes of clones there are though. The issue is if judging them strictly off of their moves’ animations is really the best choice. Because there are certain characters who have many moves with similar animations, but completely different non-attack animations, and are way too different from other characters in their category to justifiably be in the same position as said characters. Ganondorf is comparable to Luigi, and Young Link is comparable to Falco. I’m not sure if there’s any good way to put what I’m trying to communicate here, but he psudeo-clone disticntion is fine as it is. It’s only Ganondorf, Young Link, and''maybe'' Pichu I have problems with, so there’s no need to make a “semi-echo” distinction. That would be unneccesarily complicated. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:29, March 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::"The issue is if judging them strictly off of their moves’ animations is really the best choice." I don't think there is any choice in the matter. Melee, SSB4, and the general fanbase all use the base idea of "attack animations are the only real important part" as defining clones. We shouldn't be making decisions on who's a clone in SSBU and then warping our definition of "clone" to fit, it should be the other way around, and if any characters don't "seem" or "feel" correct then oh well. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Ghostbuster 06:44, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::Is this still true tho ? With all the people contesting that this or this character is a clone because he plays totally differently, and especially now echo fighters are a thing, are people still commonly using this concept to talk about animation similarities ? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:09, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::I think the fanbase at large is hung up on "echo" being the new "clone" and hasn't adjusted their expectations accordingly as we have. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 07:13, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::While Pichu and Young Link have been argued to be semi-clones (particularly the latter), nobody seriously thinks that Dr. Mario is a semi-clone despite not being an echo fighter. You are correct that the “echo” term is now accepted to be the new name for clone, people have adjusted themselves to consider Dr. Mario a full clone, even outside of this wiki. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:40, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Starting a new paragraph before things become unreadable. There are some situations where a character plays completely differently but is unarguably a full clone due to sharing almost every animation, such as the four Marths. However, my arguement was that Young Link and Ganondorf do not fit that mold (opening it up for Pichu as well because I’ve seen arguements for it. I personally think things are fine with the psydeo, semi, and full clone titles. The problem is that Ganondorf and Young Link are way too different from the others in their current category to be in that group. Even in the cloneosity chart, Young Link and Ganondorf are way too far in percentage for them to be considered the equivalent of others in their category. The difference between Young Link and Pichu is a full 5.5%, and the difference between Ganondorf and Toon Link is 9.4%. Wih Young Link, while the cloneosity hart is admittedly better proof that he’s a full clone, he’s still way too different from the other listed full clones to really be one. Ganondorf, on the other hand, is at 50%, and even then several moves are listed as thre same despite not even sharing close enough animations, such as his up tilt. While it’s close in animation to Falcon’s, it causes the zoom effect, and a kick is a fairly common up tilt anyways (such as on Samus, fox, or zero suit). And about the point on how we should follow what the fanbase should form our definition, I’ve seen plenty of people on both reddit and gamefaqs put Ganondorf and Young Link on the same levels as Wolf and Falco respectively. They’re comparable enough that I feel like they have earned their titles as pseudo and semi clones respectively. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:29, March 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:If you're going to be referencing my chart, you need to do so correctly. (First of all, check your math.) | |||
:#You admit that it shows Young Link as more of a clone than a semi-clone, given he's 3.6% away from the next clone and 8.4% away from the next semi-clone, but then proceed to claim he's "way too different" without elaboration. That's an argument that's hard to take seriously. | |||
:#You compared Ganondorf (SSBU) to Toon Link (SSBU). But Luigi (SSB4) is between them, so this isn't completely valid. In fact, because Ganondorf (SSBU) and Luigi (SSB4) are very close to each other while there's a fair gap in either direction to the next character, if you want Ganondorf (SSBU) to be a pseudo-clone, you ''must'' also call Luigi (SSB4) a pseudo-clone. You cannot have them in different categories. This is another part of the reason I feel Ganondorf (SSBU) is still a semi-clone - he's still real close to Luigi (SSB4), who is even less arguable. | |||
:#"a kick is a fairly common up tilt anyways" That doesn't matter for the fact that Ganondorf (SSBU)'s up tilt is still cloned. You also bring up Fox as an example that shares the move, but Fox's is a completely different type of kick that's not even comparable in animation, so I get the feeling you're not looking at things in-depth enough. | |||
:#I brought up the "general fanbase"'s tendancy to focus on animations because it matches the official definition of clones in all pre-SSBU games, and thus means that us focusing on attack animations isn't an official-only viewpoint. It doesn't mean we should automatically follow whatever they do (see: Wolf's status in Brawl). | |||
:[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 07:13, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::#I admit that I screwed up with arguing for Young Link that time, but considering how all of his attack animations are altered, I still think he’d qualify as a semi-clone. I know they are mostly just mirrored attacks, but they still had to be adjusted based on his arm placement. While technically, he was less work than Falco, Nintendo still had to adjust his animations beyond mirrored attacks. I’m aware that Dark Samus has a different idle animation, but her arm placement is roughly the same. You say that Young Link could have been ported over from SSB4 Link, thus reducing the amount of work. That’s a fair arguement, but Link himself changed substantially in Ultimate (new dash, final smash, grab, reworked specials, completely different model and animations, etc.), that the workload reduced to port Young Link was removed so that a roughly equal amount of work was put into reworking Link. Additionally, we don’t know if Young Link was actually ported from Smash 4 Link. | |||
::#I’m going to be completely honest here: I’ve seen just as much arguements that Luigi was about on Lucas’s level back in Smash 4 and Brawl. While he doesn’t match up the chart as well as SSBU Ganondorf does (Luigi being at 52.8%), he was undeniably more different than many of the other semi-clones. He’s roughly around 6.8% further from SSBU Toon Link and SSB4 Ganondorf (both of whom are undeniably semi-clones). That’s still a substantial difference that may be worth looking into. About Wolf not being listed as any type of clone for years, again, he was always worth being considered a psudeo-clone had the definition been established at the time. While he was not a semi-clone, he should have been listed as a clone archetype in an “other” section at the bottom at the time. The ontl reason why people called Wolf a semi-clone wa sbecause we didn’t have a name for his type of clone at the time, not because he was factually not based on Fox. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:40, March 19, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::If you dig through the page history you'll see a lot of consternation over what exactly to do with Wolf, and the most recent pre-rewrite status was that he was indeed placed in an "other" box at the bottom. The new "pseudo-clone" idea formalizes this. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Non-Toxic 06:52, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::I just checked, and yeah you were right about Wolf being there. My bad. However, I’ll open up this debate to include SSB4 Luigi as well. I completely forgot that he was listed a s a semi-clone in SSB4, and I do think it may be worth looking into. I know your chart doesn’t include the physical attributes of fighters, but with how distinct certain characters are becoming in comparison to others in the same category, it may be worth being included in there. Maybe for the cloneosity chart, physical attributes such as speed and weight should be (minimally) counted. Maybe 0.01% for every point of weight, running speed, falling speed, air speed, and walking speed? This way, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi could be dropped down to Psudeo-clone. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:33, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::I have an idea: Maybe for the cloneosity chart, physical attributes such as speed and weight should be (minimally) counted. Maybe 0.01% for every point of weight, running speed, falling speed, air speed, and walking speed? This way, Ganondorf and SSB4 Luigi could be dropped down to Psudeo-clone, and YL down to semi-clone, without affecting Pichu or Dr. Mario enough to drop them as well. Does hat sound fair? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:18, March 25, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::Any system that uses a sliding scale on numerical attributes (e.g. speed, weight, attack stats, etc) is going to be far more inaccurate simply because a) you have to pick out which ones should be counted at all, and b) you have to select the strength for each of them independently (because many of them have different units). There's no need to be so complex just to make some people feel like their opinion is correct. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Inconceivable 06:45, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::I can see what you’re talking about it being conplex, but I disagree that ignoring them entirely is the correct answer either. Despite not taking as long as changing an animation entirely, there is still more work in changing numerical attributes than in not changing them. Instead of basing it on how different the numerical scale is, perhaps basing it on how many are different instead (for example, all of Ganondorf’s and Wolf’s are different from Falcon’s and Fox’s, but Lucas’s weight is the same as Ness’s and Mario’s). Perhaps 0.05% for each one would work? After all, whether a character can wall jump or crawl is counted in your chart, so I don’t understand why something like weight or running speed would be ignored completely. | |||
:::::::Also, I hate to bring this up again, but despite a consensus not being a vote, when you’re the only person who’s considering Ganondorf a Semi-clone and Young Link a full-clone out of a good portion of users, then that should probably alarm you that there is a flaw in only basing it off (inconsistently) of animations. You say it would be too complex, but I’m actually trying to work out a working system right now by. Before we bring up Wolf again, this situation is different; people were arguing that Wolf was on the same level as Falco in terms of being a Fox clone. This is arguing that YL isn’t on Pichu/Doc/most Echo’s level or Ganondorf/SSB4 Luigi aren’t on Roy/Ken/Isabelle/TL/Falco’s level. One can clearly see that Young Link and Doc are clearly not the same kind of clone, just like how it was clear that Wolf and Falco weren’t. If worse comes to worse, we may need to create a “modelswap” subcategory specifically for Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter. As for why I’m not listing Melee Falco or Lucina (who are listed as 100% on the list) in this category, it’s because they do have major differences despite not having different animations (which is also part of my issue wih the cloneosity chart, as all of Lucina’s attacks have some sort of difference compared to Dark Pit’s three). I’m sorry if I sounded harsh, but this isn’t just “some people’s opinion”. Just because this isn’t a vote, when you’re the only one who thinks that, then it’s not that they have a wrong opinion; it’s more likely something that should be looked into instead of being brushed aside. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:28, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::This is why you shouldn't start discussions by squeezing people into a vote count. When someone adds a comment to a discussion, they are likely to return to see what their comment did. When someone makes a vote, they are much more likely to believe they're done contributing and not return to see if their opinion changes when new information/arguments arise. It's even more difficult to put stock in a vote count when it's several weeks behind the discussion. (And this doesn't mean we should go around and advertise people to come back, because who's going to want to read this all at once? They would've had to have been reading it as it progressed in order to remain interested.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 06:49, March 29, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::You’re absolutely correct that a vote count isn’t really healthy for a discussion. Would it be possible to move this entire section to the archive, and restart the debates for Ganondorf, Young Link, Pichu, and SSB4 Luigi, only this time without the vote numbers. Something like the four sections below. No votes, just simple discussions about these four. The vote topics would be moved to the archive. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:04, March 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||