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Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1: Difference between revisions
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Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | ||
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#'''Support'''. Never liked tier lists. Everyone has their own feelings on characters, and every character can be good. [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbysCrazyAppetiteSig.png|50x20px]] 01:51, December 29, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Never liked tier lists. Everyone has their own feelings on characters, and every character can be good. [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbysCrazyAppetiteSig.png|50x20px]] 01:51, December 29, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. Boy, would I be shocked to hear myself say this back in July, but honestly, heck the entire concept of "tiers." Please, just dump any mention of "high-tier" or "low-tier" or what have you, and leave it at that. Tier lists stink so much for so many reasons, most already mentioned above. Although, that's not to say competitive reception of a fighter is to be completely ignored. Obviously we'd still have sections going over the general opinion and how the fighter has fared competitively. I know many people come here for that, and I fully oppose removing competitive reception altogether. But, it's just, the very ''concept'' of the "tier list" screams "fact" in my eyes. This is what bugged me when I voted for option 3 back in July, and while I wouldn't be completely opposed to that option nowadays, as I've gotten more familiar with the ''Smash'' community I've felt more and more strongly that drawing the line between "fact" and "opinion" is very, very important, and for some reason, tier lists really seem to blur that line when they put a fighter in a particular spot. Wouldn't you agree? Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Boy, would I be shocked to hear myself say this back in July, but honestly, heck the entire concept of "tiers." Please, just dump any mention of "high-tier" or "low-tier" or what have you, and leave it at that. Tier lists stink so much for so many reasons, most already mentioned above. Although, that's not to say competitive reception of a fighter is to be completely ignored. Obviously we'd still have sections going over the general opinion and how the fighter has fared competitively. I know many people come here for that, and I fully oppose removing competitive reception altogether. But, it's just, the very ''concept'' of the "tier list" screams "fact" in my eyes. This is what bugged me when I voted for option 3 back in July, and while I wouldn't be completely opposed to that option nowadays, as I've gotten more familiar with the ''Smash'' community I've felt more and more strongly that drawing the line between "fact" and "opinion" is very, very important, and for some reason, tier lists really seem to blur that line when they put a fighter in a particular spot. Wouldn't you agree? Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | ||
#'''Support.''' - I was considering option 2, but i realized that tier lists don't really have an exact spot. Also, this way, people don't just go to the tier list and automatically choose the character in the #1 slot. We should keep Brawl Meta Knight in his own tier though. [[user:BIG BUSTER|BIG BUSTER]] | |||
#'''Support'''. After revising this, I feel cramped from choosing option 3. It isn't exactly on how choosing a tier just changes a thing, it's just the way opinions are made. Obviously, since character pages like Smash Ultimate in competitive play have been saying tiers like a top; high; mid; or low tier. This makes an impact on what professional players are making tiers, there are opinions on how most professional players overrating Sonic and placing him in top tier, while {{Sm|ESAM}} underrating Sonic into upper mid. The effect on an opinion changing into a fact is very ''subtle'' and what this change isn't the fact it just a tier list that makes it a fact, but rather confusion and questions on players that they see the tier list as needing or suggesting. This is why matchup charts and tier lists in the wiki are just out of date, it's too weird to think one character is better overall, just because that the tier list is literally made in 2015, while the current meta finds that character worse overall. Matchups also have an effect like a tier list, similar to how a character has a disadvantage in (year), and now meta is now even. This obviously understand not only these facts are outdated and each fact like tier letters (s, a, b, c, etc.), tier lists, matchups, and outdated tiers make an appearance, but rather a thing overall that needs to be fixed and opinions are greater than facts as these tier lists and meta changes overall. The word ''Appearance'' is literally a noun, and what does this noun have, the appearance of what a change can have, appearance in smash (especially in smash ultimate) has lots of things that can change the whole meta, updates from buffs and nerfs on characters, player base on each character, characters win in super or major tournaments, new DLC character that can affect the matchups, etc. A thing is a noun and almost every single thing altogether makes a sudden change into Smash Ultimate overall and the Smash community altogether. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">playz</span>'']] 00:57, January 1, 2021 (EST) | #'''Support'''. After revising this, I feel cramped from choosing option 3. It isn't exactly on how choosing a tier just changes a thing, it's just the way opinions are made. Obviously, since character pages like Smash Ultimate in competitive play have been saying tiers like a top; high; mid; or low tier. This makes an impact on what professional players are making tiers, there are opinions on how most professional players overrating Sonic and placing him in top tier, while {{Sm|ESAM}} underrating Sonic into upper mid. The effect on an opinion changing into a fact is very ''subtle'' and what this change isn't the fact it just a tier list that makes it a fact, but rather confusion and questions on players that they see the tier list as needing or suggesting. This is why matchup charts and tier lists in the wiki are just out of date, it's too weird to think one character is better overall, just because that the tier list is literally made in 2015, while the current meta finds that character worse overall. Matchups also have an effect like a tier list, similar to how a character has a disadvantage in (year), and now meta is now even. This obviously understand not only these facts are outdated and each fact like tier letters (s, a, b, c, etc.), tier lists, matchups, and outdated tiers make an appearance, but rather a thing overall that needs to be fixed and opinions are greater than facts as these tier lists and meta changes overall. The word ''Appearance'' is literally a noun, and what does this noun have, the appearance of what a change can have, appearance in smash (especially in smash ultimate) has lots of things that can change the whole meta, updates from buffs and nerfs on characters, player base on each character, characters win in super or major tournaments, new DLC character that can affect the matchups, etc. A thing is a noun and almost every single thing altogether makes a sudden change into Smash Ultimate overall and the Smash community altogether. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">playz</span>'']] 00:57, January 1, 2021 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. - With the ever changing meta of Smash Ultimate, I think the other choices outside of options 1 aren't the safest to do in my honest opinion. I honestly don't care too much about tierlists outside of discussion but there is a lot of misinformation that gets spread around so it's best not to act so soon on making a tierlist at least, we do not need one, Ultimate is a very different smash game. I feel like this time a tierlist would invaidate the opinions of others much more so than ever before. It has already lead to controversy and confusion many times so I would advise again it which is why I am in support of option 1. I see it as the best option with how people have been using bait tierlists and the like and disucssion is less common among these bigger tierlists or the discussion is not constructive.[[User talk:CutterX3|<span style= "color: #1C63FF">'''CutterX3''']] 23:50, January 26, 2021 (ICT) | |||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||
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#'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, | # '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ||
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#'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, | #'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''': I think that this is an easily implemented solution right now. I think it's a little ridiculous that new players to the game who want to see a tier list still see a 2015 tier list that just doesn't represent the modern meta. Right now I could throw an average tier list based off leffen, hbox, mew2king and armada's lists and it might not be perfect but it would be already be a more reasonable representation of the meta. Aggregate practically is also the best option because it avoids over weighting projected confidence. As long as reliable people are chosen I think it's the obvious decision | #'''Support''': I think that this is an easily implemented solution right now. I think it's a little ridiculous that new players to the game who want to see a tier list still see a 2015 tier list that just doesn't represent the modern meta. Right now I could throw an average tier list based off leffen, hbox, mew2king and armada's lists and it might not be perfect but it would be already be a more reasonable representation of the meta. Aggregate practically is also the best option because it avoids over weighting projected confidence. As long as reliable people are chosen I think it's the obvious decision | ||
#'''Support''' This is the best method because we take a lot of tier lists and put them together, and that is fair to everyone because it combines opinions instead of going with only one. [[User:SSBU Boi|SSBU Boi]] ([[User talk:SSBU Boi|talk]]) 09:12, December 16, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' This is the best method because we take a lot of tier lists and put them together, and that is fair to everyone because it combines opinions instead of going with only one. [[User:SSBU Boi|SSBU Boi]] ([[User talk:SSBU Boi|talk]]) 09:12, December 16, 2020 (EST) | ||
#''' | #'''Support''' This is clearly the best option, in my opinion. It doesn't remove information from the wiki like option 1, nor may be completely and utterly unfeasible like option 2. [[User:Aaaaa|Aaaaa]] ([[User talk:Aaaaa|talk]]) 09:55, January 5, 2021 (EST) | ||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
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But if we're talking about offline then I see why Bowser Jr. is awful [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:26, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | But if we're talking about offline then I see why Bowser Jr. is awful [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:26, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:Please keep topics relevant to the discussion rather than ranting about character placements. [[User:RandomUltimate|RandomUltimate]] ([[User talk:RandomUltimate|talk]]) 11:29, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | :Please keep topics relevant to the discussion rather than ranting about character placements. [[User:RandomUltimate|RandomUltimate]] ([[User talk:RandomUltimate|talk]]) 11:29, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
==Closing== | |||
It's been a year, so I'm closing the vote. Clearly option 2 is not very well-liked. While option 3 is the most popular, I am surprised at how much traction option 1 has gotten, so it doesn't feel right to simply wash it away as a "loser". | |||
So what now? I've been working on-and-off at how to construct part 2 of the vote, as well as a few ideas for how an aggregate list of ours would work. I plan to finish these up and (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed) have them ready for part 2 in a month. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 23:47, January 27, 2021 (EST) | |||