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Forum:Cloned final smash pages: Difference between revisions
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{{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ --> | {{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ --> | ||
{{Proposal}} | {{Proposal|passed|2=Option: '''Only merge Final Smash pages that have no gameplay differences''' <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 08:55, March 13, 2021 (EST)}} | ||
About a month ago [[Daisy Blossom]] was merged with [[Peach Blossom]] on the basis that those two were identical [[Final Smash]]es. Notably this makes it the only final smash with a different name to be on the same page as its "parent" final smash. Now it was brought up on my talk page about how the other "cloned" final smashes should be handled, specifically [[Doctor Finale]], [[Phazon Laser]], [[Team Star Wolf]] and [[Dream Town Hall]], as they are considered somewhat identical to [[Mario Finale]], [[Zero Laser]], [[Team Star Fox]] and [[Dream Home]] respectively. Now what makes these final smashes different from Daisy Blossom is that there are some gameplay differences between their parent final smashes (e.g. some deal more damage and knockback), whereas Daisy Blossom has no differences at all from Peach's besides visuals. | About a month ago [[Daisy Blossom]] was merged with [[Peach Blossom]] on the basis that those two were identical [[Final Smash]]es. Notably this makes it the only final smash with a different name to be on the same page as its "parent" final smash. Now it was brought up on my talk page about how the other "cloned" final smashes should be handled, specifically [[Doctor Finale]], [[Phazon Laser]], [[Team Star Wolf]] and [[Dream Town Hall]], as they are considered somewhat identical to [[Mario Finale]], [[Zero Laser]], [[Team Star Fox]] and [[Dream Home]] respectively. Now what makes these final smashes different from Daisy Blossom is that there are some gameplay differences between their parent final smashes (e.g. some deal more damage and knockback), whereas Daisy Blossom has no differences at all from Peach's besides visuals. | ||
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==Split the Final Smash pages== | ==Split the Final Smash pages== | ||
<s>*I am pretty sure that for special moves we have decided that different name + even small gameplay differences (i.e. [[Cape]] and [[Super Sheet]]) are enough for separating. I see no reason why this can't be applied for Final Smashes, and therefore I '''support''' keeping them split. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 06:07, May 22, 2020 (EDT)</s> | <s>*I am pretty sure that for special moves we have decided that different name + even small gameplay differences (i.e. [[Cape]] and [[Super Sheet]]) are enough for separating. I see no reason why this can't be applied for Final Smashes, and therefore I '''support''' keeping them split. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 06:07, May 22, 2020 (EDT)</s> | ||
#'''Support''' - This is mainly for organisation reasons within the wiki. Having moves which are of a different name and look somewhat different unmerged will look cleaner and save bandwidth. If you hover on Dream Town Hall for example you would expect to see Isabelle's Final Smash specifically on the thumbnail. --[[User:MrMHM|MrMHM]] ([[User talk:MrMHM|talk]]) 18:07, June 2, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' - This is mainly for organisation reasons within the wiki. Having moves which are of a different name and look somewhat different unmerged will look cleaner and save bandwidth. If you hover on Dream Town Hall for example you would expect to see Isabelle's Final Smash specifically on the thumbnail. Visual differences are still differences, especially relevant for images. --[[User:MrMHM|MrMHM]] ([[User talk:MrMHM|talk]]) 18:07, June 2, 2020 (EDT) | ||
==Only merge Final Smash pages that have no gameplay differences== | ==Only merge Final Smash pages that have no gameplay differences== | ||
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#Since I rushed to start this I decided to wait a bit to see what the best option should be. There's no reason to have 2 pages for a final smashes that are identical, even if they are named differently. This is the main reason why Peach and Daisy Blossom were merged, and there's no reason to split it again. Ones like Dr Finale and Team Star Wolf have noticible gameplay differences so those should stay split. Now the one that is tricky to deal with is Dream Town Hall because, while 5% is extremely minimal, it ''is'' still gameplay affecting so this one is in a ''really'' gray area. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<small><font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font></small>]]'''</span> 09:31, May 23, 2020 (EDT) | #Since I rushed to start this I decided to wait a bit to see what the best option should be. There's no reason to have 2 pages for a final smashes that are identical, even if they are named differently. This is the main reason why Peach and Daisy Blossom were merged, and there's no reason to split it again. Ones like Dr Finale and Team Star Wolf have noticible gameplay differences so those should stay split. Now the one that is tricky to deal with is Dream Town Hall because, while 5% is extremely minimal, it ''is'' still gameplay affecting so this one is in a ''really'' gray area. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<small><font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font></small>]]'''</span> 09:31, May 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support.''' This one should be a no-brainer imo. I'd even be keen on merging the ones with very very tiny differences which are meant to be similar to another FS like Dr. Finale and Dream Town Hall, but I'm fine with those staying separate. [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer'''</span>]][[User talk:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:red">'''28'''</span>]][[File:Acgamer28SignatureHead.png|20px]] 21:32, May 28, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support.''' This one should be a no-brainer imo. I'd even be keen on merging the ones with very very tiny differences which are meant to be similar to another FS like Dr. Finale and Dream Town Hall, but I'm fine with those staying separate. [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer'''</span>]][[User talk:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:red">'''28'''</span>]][[File:Acgamer28SignatureHead.png|20px]] 21:32, May 28, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' There are a lot of clone Final Smashes. Why not? I think this is the right choice since those with no gameplay differences have very identical functions. [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Son Daniel|talk page]]) 18:18, June 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#This seems like the most obvious solution. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 21:03, June 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#Giving this a bump and '''supporting''' this decision, this seems like the best idea imo. [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 14:37, July 28, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. Makes the most sense right now. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 15:18, September 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
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::[[Phazon Laser]] lacks the thrusters, while [[Dream Town Hall]] deals 5% more damage. Under previously established rules, Phazon Laser absolutely should not be merged, but Dream Town Hall might, it's a bit of a gray area. I am leaning towards not merging it though because unlike Daisy Blossom there is a minute gameplay difference. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 10:55, May 22, 2020 (EDT) | ::[[Phazon Laser]] lacks the thrusters, while [[Dream Town Hall]] deals 5% more damage. Under previously established rules, Phazon Laser absolutely should not be merged, but Dream Town Hall might, it's a bit of a gray area. I am leaning towards not merging it though because unlike Daisy Blossom there is a minute gameplay difference. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 10:55, May 22, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:::This probably isn't super relevant, but I've noticed that Phazon Laser also has a slightly different hit signature to Zero Laser as well as lacking the thrusters. Try using both moves from the same place against the same opponent in the same place, with all other factors controlled as well, and for most positions you won't get the same damage output for both, despite the damage output for each being consistent on their own. Dream Town Hall is definitely a gray area, as the only difference is an additional silent hit for 5% extra damage, however I think it clearly demonstrates that the only consistent place to draw the line is in the presence of a gameplay difference. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:04, May 23, 2020 (EDT) | :::This probably isn't super relevant, but I've noticed that Phazon Laser also has a slightly different hit signature to Zero Laser as well as lacking the thrusters. Try using both moves from the same place against the same opponent in the same place, with all other factors controlled as well, and for most positions you won't get the same damage output for both, despite the damage output for each being consistent on their own. Dream Town Hall is definitely a gray area, as the only difference is an additional silent hit for 5% extra damage, however I think it clearly demonstrates that the only consistent place to draw the line is in the presence of a gameplay difference. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:04, May 23, 2020 (EDT) | ||
So here's the deal -- if the absence of the thrusters is enough to keep [[Zero Laser]] and [[Phazon Laser]] split, then there is zero reason for ZSS's Zero Laser to be merged with Samus's. If we're trying to have a definitive discussion on the state of Final Smash pages, I think we need to hunt down other cases like that. Off the top of my head, [[Critical Hit]] and [[Team Star Fox]] should also be split. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 16:27, September 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I personally agree with you TheNuttyOne, but if we are splitting [[Critical Hit]] I'm thinking of Roy's version is the one to split since its a weaker version of Marth/Lucina's version. Marth/Lucina's variant deal 60% damage and is a [[One-hit KO]] whereas Roy's can deal 45% damage if all hits connect and compared to Marth/Lucina's critical hit, Roy's isnt a OHKO. [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue; 0px">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] 16:49, September 2, 2020 (EDT) | |||