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Forum:Tier list debate 2020: Part 1: Difference between revisions
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Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | Historically, SmashWiki was part of SmashBoards, and SmashBoards was the unchallenged hub for all Smash Bros. discussion and research. As a result, we only recognized tier lists produced by the SmashBoards backrooms, as they were accepted by the entire community as being the most accurate and trustworthy. | ||
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There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | There is no "status quo" or "other" option. Make your stand. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:54, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ===Option 1: Hands-off=== | ||
#'''Support.''' Tier lists are extremely opinionated, and there is no definitive answer. The best idea is probably to let people decide for themselves. Of course there are people out there with different tier opinions than ours. We could just let the people go to the Smash player they trust or like most, and let them decide on their own, using the bias from someone else. [[User:SpiritSobble]] | |||
#'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support.''' Unless an official tier list that the majority agrees upon is released, it's better to keep tier placements general. This allows the best accuracy as tiers other than the top tier are often immensely different from one opinion to the next, especially with a roster as big as ''Ultimate''. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 20:02, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. Ultimately, outside of extreme cases such as MK in Brawl, there is no such thing as an objective placement for a character on a tier list. All tier lists are opinions, and a factual wiki is not the place for opinions. <s>I wouldn't be completely against option 3, since it's at least a bit more fair than treating any specific tier list as "official" (which is in hindsight kind of a stupid thing to do), but</s> I think our best option is to simply provide information about how the community generally views the strengths and weaknesses of each character, rather than outright stating that this character ranks at this specific position. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:06, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''': I'm torn between this and the third option, but I'm slightly edging towards this one. While I do think it's a good idea to continue documenting characters' strengths and weaknesses as well as what is the general consensus of how good they are, explicit tier lists have always only ever been argument fodder - not only with the precise placement of characters but in terms of whose list is taken as (the most) valid and how egos have historically played into that; as aside, this is one of the reasons why I have ''never'' been okay with people seeing SmashBoards and particularly the reclusive Back Room(s) as the sole authority on Smash, so the notion that things are becoming decentralized (which is news to me, honestly) is the exact opposite of what I'd call a "depressing reality". What I'd recommend instead of tier placement on the game and character pages themselves is a collection of links to popular tier lists on each game's ''competitive'' page, as a means of quick reference and comparison for people explicitly looking for competitive info. Admittedly, this ties into my long-running wish for the wiki to become a more general informational resource like other NIWA wikis with all the competitive/community material cordoned off into its own hub or sub-wiki, but that debate on the whole is outside the scope of this discussion. On this topic in particular, my vote is for the wiki to be largely hands-off but to point players interested in that kind of info in the right direction rather than just leave them hanging. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 12:28, April 1, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''': Yeah, with the exception of extremities like ''Brawl'' Meta Knight and ''Smash 4'' Bayonetta, it isn't exactly a good idea to claim that, for example, {{SSBM|Mr. Game & Watch}} in ''Melee'' is ranked 20th out of 26 (as opposed to 21st, 19th, or 22nd, which have all been his ranking on official SmashBoards tier lists of the past)—the best we can really go for is to say that he's a low-tier character that probably isn't tournament-viable. Not everyone even agrees that {{SSBM|Fox}} is 1st out of 26 in ''Melee''. Option 3 may or may not also be able to work, but deciding on exactly how to average them can be a hard task on its own. A similar thing mostly applies to matchups: there are a select few that are undisputably in one side's favor (such as Sheik against Bowser in ''Melee''), but otherwise, we can't really say much about them (except that high-tiers generally have favorable matchups over low-tiers). Plainly we should at least keep historical tier lists and matchup charts, though, but plainly we should also mark them as being historical and therefore potentially out of date. --[[User:Volleo6144|Volleo6144]] ([[User talk:Volleo6144|talk]]) 18:09, April 5, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support with some doubts''': I think one of the safest ones and would cause least controversies for wiki. Option 3 assumes voting, and its unreliable. [https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 PGRU voting tier list] is an example. Averegly, {{SSBU|Palutena}} got the best result, so she's the best character in the game? And that's my biggest problem with Option 3, altrought it would be much smaller if we use Clarniet Hawk's way. Option 2 has, as stated by Toomai already, painful to aquire trustful and probably notable source and it's the worst one in my opinion. | #'''Support with some doubts''': I think one of the safest ones and would cause least controversies for wiki. Option 3 assumes voting, and its unreliable. [https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313 PGRU voting tier list] is an example. Averegly, {{SSBU|Palutena}} got the best result, so she's the best character in the game? And that's my biggest problem with Option 3, altrought it would be much smaller if we use Clarniet Hawk's way. Option 2 has, as stated by Toomai already, painful to aquire trustful and probably notable source and it's the worst one in my opinion. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:46.229.158.109|46.229.158.109]] ([[User talk:46.229.158.109|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/46.229.158.109|contribs]]) 02:37, April 10, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just a matter of opinion, and instaed of trying to classify every single character, keeping it general is overall (maybe) more convenient(apart from exceptions like ''Brawl's'' Meta Knight and ''SSB4's'' Bayonetta). [[User:Weegeegaming|'''<span style="color: green;">Weegeegaming</span>''']]|[[User talk:Weegeegaming|'''''<span style="color: red;">talk</span>''''']] 09:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. Tier lists are just a matter of opinion, and instaed of trying to classify every single character, keeping it general is overall (maybe) more convenient(apart from exceptions like ''Brawl's'' Meta Knight and ''SSB4's'' Bayonetta). [[User:Weegeegaming|'''<span style="color: green;">Weegeegaming</span>''']]|[[User talk:Weegeegaming|'''''<span style="color: red;">talk</span>''''']] 09:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Look, I make tier lists myself and I always use my opinion on how viable a character's placement is in every spot. Tier lists are basically opinion based on how some top players make a well-desinged tier list based on their opinion. And that is why I chose hands-off. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 03:25, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Look, I make tier lists myself and I always use my opinion on how viable a character's placement is in every spot. Tier lists are basically opinion based on how some top players make a well-desinged tier list based on their opinion. And that is why I chose hands-off. [[User:S3AHAWK|S3AHAWK]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|talk]]) 03:25, April 18, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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# '''support.''' I do not really care about tier lists. They are just biased opinions and debates on how many Marths exist. So how about we rest on our laurels and wait until Smash brothers is getting old and frail before we do anything about tier lists. I have spoken. [[User:JustSomeCloudMain|JustSomeCloudMain who ain't interested]] ([[User talk:JustSomeCloudMain|talk]]) 11:44, July 30, 2020 (EDT) | # '''support.''' I do not really care about tier lists. They are just biased opinions and debates on how many Marths exist. So how about we rest on our laurels and wait until Smash brothers is getting old and frail before we do anything about tier lists. I have spoken. [[User:JustSomeCloudMain|JustSomeCloudMain who ain't interested]] ([[User talk:JustSomeCloudMain|talk]]) 11:44, July 30, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Everyone has their favorite characters and hates them, so a tier list would disrupt everything. --[[User:CyberNat2000|CyberNat2000]] ([[User talk:CyberNat2000|talk]]) 12:17, August 11, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Everyone has their favorite characters and hates them, so a tier list would disrupt everything. --[[User:CyberNat2000|CyberNat2000]] ([[User talk:CyberNat2000|talk]]) 12:17, August 11, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support.''' Not really sure why just seems like the best option in my opinion [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]]) 13:49, September 6, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. It is true that the competitive scene is a very large part of the Smash community as a whole, and it should be noted which characters are most popular for tournaments, and which of them generally perform best. But treating one tier list as objective fact isn't right--even if it might be the most popular tier list and hailed as most accurate, popular opinion is still opinion. Option 3 is good on paper, but it also looks to be very difficult to manage, could lead to debate over which tier lists to aggregate, and, well, it's still opinion. Yes, we should note a character's strengths and weaknesses, and yes, we should note a character's performance in competitive tournaments. But that's where fact ends and opinions begin. -[[User:YoshiFlutterJump|YFJ]] ([[User talk:YoshiFlutterJump|talk]] · [[Special:Contribs/YoshiFlutterJump|edits]]) 01:30, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are just opinions. Opinions don't have a place on an encyclopedic wiki. [[Special:Editcount/PinkYoshiFan|---]][[User:PinkYoshiFan|Pink]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan|Yoshi]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan|Fan]] 18:45, September 18, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I've never believed the belief that it is the existence of tier lists that draw people to this wiki nor helps them make well informed choices for how to play (which is dumb anyway, anyone will either play the same 10-ish characters as everyone else to show off their life dedication to only winning or will play for fun with whoever they enjoy.). Don't make tier lists, period. If anything, have a page that shows tournament matchups within a major update period, with a running total for all matchups over time to see who appears to do best against who among tournamenters. This could also help show which characters are "top tier" due to just high usage as well as which are "bottom tier" due to mere lack of popular use in tournament play. [[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 22:58, October 11, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. Tier lists are opinions, and opinions do not belong on a wiki. They never should have been here in the first place. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 22:04, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support'''. As above, tier lists are opinions, and an agrregation of opinions, even may be closer to objective truth, is still an opinion. You can never vote for the invalidation of a scientific fact and really forfeit it, anyway. [[User:Benzene114]] | |||
#'''Support?''' I agree with SpiritSobble, because I think that most people will be biased on their own or favorite players' opinion. But if we remove them, some people that want other opinions, as said in the description for option one, may be unhappy that we don't have tier lists, and that they may not think that this is a good wiki to get that information from, even though a tier list is not a fact, it is simply opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way, since I am still new to the wiki, and I know little about how this works. '''It's ya boi, [[User:KirboBoi64|KirboBoi]].''' ''[[User talk:KirboBoi64|<span style="color: #FDB0D4">Poyo</span>]]''. [[File:StarSign.png|16px]] 14:38, December 18, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. Never liked tier lists. Everyone has their own feelings on characters, and every character can be good. [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbysCrazyAppetiteSig.png|50x20px]] 01:51, December 29, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. Boy, would I be shocked to hear myself say this back in July, but honestly, heck the entire concept of "tiers." Please, just dump any mention of "high-tier" or "low-tier" or what have you, and leave it at that. Tier lists stink so much for so many reasons, most already mentioned above. Although, that's not to say competitive reception of a fighter is to be completely ignored. Obviously we'd still have sections going over the general opinion and how the fighter has fared competitively. I know many people come here for that, and I fully oppose removing competitive reception altogether. But, it's just, the very ''concept'' of the "tier list" screams "fact" in my eyes. This is what bugged me when I voted for option 3 back in July, and while I wouldn't be completely opposed to that option nowadays, as I've gotten more familiar with the ''Smash'' community I've felt more and more strongly that drawing the line between "fact" and "opinion" is very, very important, and for some reason, tier lists really seem to blur that line when they put a fighter in a particular spot. Wouldn't you agree? Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | |||
#'''Support.''' - I was considering option 2, but i realized that tier lists don't really have an exact spot. Also, this way, people don't just go to the tier list and automatically choose the character in the #1 slot. We should keep Brawl Meta Knight in his own tier though. [[user:BIG BUSTER|BIG BUSTER]] | |||
#'''Support'''. After revising this, I feel cramped from choosing option 3. It isn't exactly on how choosing a tier just changes a thing, it's just the way opinions are made. Obviously, since character pages like Smash Ultimate in competitive play have been saying tiers like a top; high; mid; or low tier. This makes an impact on what professional players are making tiers, there are opinions on how most professional players overrating Sonic and placing him in top tier, while {{Sm|ESAM}} underrating Sonic into upper mid. The effect on an opinion changing into a fact is very ''subtle'' and what this change isn't the fact it just a tier list that makes it a fact, but rather confusion and questions on players that they see the tier list as needing or suggesting. This is why matchup charts and tier lists in the wiki are just out of date, it's too weird to think one character is better overall, just because that the tier list is literally made in 2015, while the current meta finds that character worse overall. Matchups also have an effect like a tier list, similar to how a character has a disadvantage in (year), and now meta is now even. This obviously understand not only these facts are outdated and each fact like tier letters (s, a, b, c, etc.), tier lists, matchups, and outdated tiers make an appearance, but rather a thing overall that needs to be fixed and opinions are greater than facts as these tier lists and meta changes overall. The word ''Appearance'' is literally a noun, and what does this noun have, the appearance of what a change can have, appearance in smash (especially in smash ultimate) has lots of things that can change the whole meta, updates from buffs and nerfs on characters, player base on each character, characters win in super or major tournaments, new DLC character that can affect the matchups, etc. A thing is a noun and almost every single thing altogether makes a sudden change into Smash Ultimate overall and the Smash community altogether. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">playz</span>'']] 00:57, January 1, 2021 (EST) | |||
#'''Support'''. - With the ever changing meta of Smash Ultimate, I think the other choices outside of options 1 aren't the safest to do in my honest opinion. I honestly don't care too much about tierlists outside of discussion but there is a lot of misinformation that gets spread around so it's best not to act so soon on making a tierlist at least, we do not need one, Ultimate is a very different smash game. I feel like this time a tierlist would invaidate the opinions of others much more so than ever before. It has already lead to controversy and confusion many times so I would advise again it which is why I am in support of option 1. I see it as the best option with how people have been using bait tierlists and the like and disucssion is less common among these bigger tierlists or the discussion is not constructive.[[User talk:CutterX3|<span style= "color: #1C63FF">'''CutterX3''']] 23:50, January 26, 2021 (ICT) | |||
===Option 2: New source=== | ===Option 2: New source=== | ||
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#'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' You see the top player tier list from PG? Yeah, that. [[User:Pepdog2|Pepdog2]] ([[User talk:Pepdog2|talk]]) 00:42, March 7, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support'''. As with the above vote, I would like to use the character tier list from Panda Global as our official tier list. It was essentially conducted in the same manner as a SmashBoards tier list with over 30 PGR players offering an opinion, so to me it feels like the direct successor to the SmashBoards tier lists of old. It doesn't even conflict with the wiki's approach that much, as we already deem the PGR to be 'official', so their tier list is a logical step. Complimenting this, I would like to retain the SmashBoards tier lists for all previous games leading into Ultimate. Realistically we can't ask anybody to accurately create new tier lists for old games. Even if the vote favours a different option, I still believe we should retain SmashBoards tiers for the first four games. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:52, March 25, 2020 (EDT) | ||
# '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, | # '''Support''': I think maintaining tier lists helps new players a lot. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:78.34.65.94|78.34.65.94]] ([[User talk:78.34.65.94|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/78.34.65.94|contribs]]) 08:35, April 7, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support.''' I would just like to point out that we sort-of already ''do'' rely on a new source; the most recent ''SSB64'' and ''Melee'' tier lists are, as noted, as a result of fan votes and feedback. Additionally, the first ''SSB64'' tier list was provided by GameFaqs. As for ''Ultimate'', I guess [[:Image:SSBU Tier List.jpg|this tier list]] that was briefly added to the article could work. <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 22:16, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support only if we can truly find a good source.''' If we can't find a good trustworthy source then option 1. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:AW MAN 5|AW MAN 5]] ([[User talk:AW MAN 5|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/AW MAN 5|contribs]]) 13:51, September 6, 2020 (EDT)</small> | |||
===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ===Option 3: Aggregate=== | ||
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#'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' for basically the same reasons as Voqéo. Tier lists will always be fought over and have multiple thoughts on the matter, so it's best we factor together multiple sources instead of depending on a single one. That way we may be able to achieve the most accuracy possible. Only concern I have is how exactly this WILL be done. It's easy to say there will be a way to combine tier lists, but execution is always harder than ideas. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 20:10, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''': I generally think that aggregated tier lists is a good idea. On one hand, you'll have the opinions coming from the best players in the world, and all of these opinions combined would make for a solid substitute for the Backrooms. While we might have the occasional Samsora with "King K Rool is Top 15", if we opinions from enough top players, it'll balance itself out in the end. [[User:Wizardgeno|Wizardgeno]] ([[User talk:Wizardgeno|talk]]) 20:32, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, | #'''Support''' Top players make tier lists every day, combining them and listing them with there update number seems to be a great way to get a general overview of tiers. Just dont use sites like Eventhubs. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CR4VE|CR4VE]] ([[User talk:CR4VE|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CR4VE|contribs]]) 20:39, January 30, 2020</small> | ||
#'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support'''. [[User:KungFuLakitu|KungFuLakitu]], [[User talk:KungFuLakitu|Spiny Overlord]] 20:45, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | #'''Support''' - Aggregating tier rankings from various trusted sources seems like the best option to go with. Option 1 doesn't sound encyclopedic to me, and at the moment i don't think there is any single widely accepted tier list that we could use for option 2.- [[User:Searingjet|Searingjet]] ([[User talk:Searingjet|talk]]) 20:57, January 30, 2020 (EST) | ||
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#'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' It might even be good to have multiple lists, or at least link to the results based list for more empirical data. With proper disclaimers it's just as relevant as the old smashboards lists. [[User:Snitchface|Snitchface]] ([[User talk:Snitchface|talk]]) 15:19, June 12, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | #'''Support''' Tier lists have a place on this wiki, and should stay. Only issue I can think of is finding reliable tier list sources, but I'm sure the wiki can do it. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 15:43, June 15, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#'''Support''' Indeed, the tier list system currently in place is biased. Seeing the tier rankings on this wiki that treat the information as objective really gets on my nerves. There should be a system in place more akin to how Wikipedia treats ratings for movies and video games. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel the Banjo-Kazooie Boss.]] (Personal conversation [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|here]].) 12:02, July 7, 2020 (EDT) | #<s>'''Support''' Indeed, the tier list system currently in place is biased. Seeing the tier rankings on this wiki that treat the information as objective really gets on my nerves. There should be a system in place more akin to how Wikipedia treats ratings for movies and video games. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel the Banjo-Kazooie Boss.]] (Personal conversation [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|here]].) 12:02, July 7, 2020 (EDT)</s> Make that a '''Semi-support?''', with a really big question mark. See my Option 1 Support for more info. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span><span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:21, January 1, 2021 (EST) | ||
#"""Support""" Aggregating a score would create an even, un-biased opinion. SmashWiki is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, Smash-related sites out there, and a lot of people (myself included) look at the tier lists for choosing a main and just to see where certain characters stand. As ChilePepp3r said, tier lists can't disappear. Sure, other methods are less work, but this option would solidify tier lists forever, and make SmashWiki the prime site for tier lists. Hence why we need to choose this option. [[User:Super Eli|Super Eli]] ([[User talk:Super Eli|talk]]) 11:55, September 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I'm not a huge fan of tier lists personally. However, I recognize that for many people they are a go-to source. I think that as long as they're treated fairly, which aggregation trypically is, I have no issue with tier lists being represented. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS; font-size:10pt">[[User:Johnnywellens|<span style="color:forestgreen">JohnnyWellens</span>]]</span> 17:17, October 4, 2020 (EDT)] | |||
#<s>'''Support''' Now I'd waited for my life until the first offical tier list came out and [https://twitter.com/jaaahsh/status/1229812803852173313?lang=en|this is the closest so far]. All I'd wanted to say is that no I'm not crazy of choosing this because this has the most, but it has some reason I needed to choose this one for good reasons. These reasons are from option 3 only due to being a bit lazy. 1. Regularly, tier lists can perform with each individual players in their own perspective with these tier lists, not just one. For example, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5EV406Aeq0|Hungrybox made a tier list] and puts each depth by their own experience by tournaments and one from each basic timeline can tell their own opinions. If one looks more official than the others, they put it first due to how easier it is that these lists are, based on tournament results. 2. Arguebally, the main platforms for tier lists and how each person makes one makes it in a private room like Discord as an example. We should justify the places we would arguably make one. If this wiki has one in the future we can put it in the Discord and make some adjustments into it. Notably, I would also try to use Google Sheets to make it cleaner due to how much people are using Google more. 3. Matchup charts were part of the tier list back then which was used for 64-Brawl, but in Smash 4 they completely removed it. This reason is why match-up charts gotta go. It can still be useable but due to many characters being added from the previous installments to now, it's very hard and not able to know these matchups all combined together. This is why Smash 4 lacked the match-up chart, the big roster and DLC characters made it hard for matchups to begin. This was a problem to Mii Brawler in the early ''Smash 4'' meta and Bayonetta in all when she was released. This is why I gotta choose 3 for a reason with many lackable things like SmashBoards not having one and literally new characters can be hard. But at least we can see other top professional players' opinions.</s> The actual option is actually in Option 1 as I changed my opinion overall. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Blue;">''How''</span>]][[File:IkeHeadEatingChickenSSBU.png|20px]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style=" font-family: Caveat;color: Gold;">Playz</span>'']] 23:00, September 28, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' I honestly think this is the option we should pick and not just because of all the votes already. This one should be the one we select because it'll show we aren't closed off from the rest of the community since we are picking tier lists from all over the community and plus this choice show we aren't totally dependent on others for simple things like tier lists. <font color="red">Preceding comment that was ptotally signed by [[user:CaptainDabsalot|CaptainDabsalot]] ([[user talk:CaptainDabsalot|talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/CaptainDabsalot|Contribs]])</font> 10:51, October 14, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support''' Definitely sounds like the best option, don't really want to see tier lists removed. --[[User:WLord|WLord]] ([[User talk:WLord|talk]]) 21:31, October 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
#'''Support*''' I do believe that tier lists are important and shouldn't be ignored because they are opinionated by nature. Aggregating is the best option, as the subjectivity is kept to a minimum by averaging out the placements. Still, I believe some disclaimers need to be put in front of all of them. First, tier placements do not mean a high tier character will always beat a low tier character, as the outcome is mostly up to the players and their experience with the game. Second, tier lists are meant for serious competitive players that are looking for every little advantage. They are irrelevant for casual players that don't care about competition and those people should be informed about that. Third, tier lists are not set in stone and are subject to change suddenly at any point. Just because a character is in one spot yesterday doesn't necessarily mean said character will be in the same spot today. | |||
#'''Support''' Tier lists matter, we can't just remove them and act as if they didn't. Also at least for the older games that don't get patched tier lists are in huge parts agreed on by the competitive community [[User:Patzui|Patzui]] ([[User talk:Patzui|talk]]) 05:02, November 22, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''': I think that this is an easily implemented solution right now. I think it's a little ridiculous that new players to the game who want to see a tier list still see a 2015 tier list that just doesn't represent the modern meta. Right now I could throw an average tier list based off leffen, hbox, mew2king and armada's lists and it might not be perfect but it would be already be a more reasonable representation of the meta. Aggregate practically is also the best option because it avoids over weighting projected confidence. As long as reliable people are chosen I think it's the obvious decision | |||
#'''Support''' This is the best method because we take a lot of tier lists and put them together, and that is fair to everyone because it combines opinions instead of going with only one. [[User:SSBU Boi|SSBU Boi]] ([[User talk:SSBU Boi|talk]]) 09:12, December 16, 2020 (EST) | |||
#'''Support''' This is clearly the best option, in my opinion. It doesn't remove information from the wiki like option 1, nor may be completely and utterly unfeasible like option 2. [[User:Aaaaa|Aaaaa]] ([[User talk:Aaaaa|talk]]) 09:55, January 5, 2021 (EST) | |||
==Comments== | ==Comments== | ||
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I feel like the best option is for the a Tier list to be made by the website itself instead of using a 3rd Party source like Smash Boards maybe it could be done by either voting or by the admins themselves but if I have to pick between the options listed here in this debate (1,2,3) I would pick option 3 [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 17:08, July 14, 2020 (EDT) | I feel like the best option is for the a Tier list to be made by the website itself instead of using a 3rd Party source like Smash Boards maybe it could be done by either voting or by the admins themselves but if I have to pick between the options listed here in this debate (1,2,3) I would pick option 3 [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 17:08, July 14, 2020 (EDT) | ||
I did ask Strong Badam about this on Smashboards https://smashboards.com/threads/is-smashboards-not-releasing-a-tier-list-until-all-characters-are-released.505801/#post-23995402 [[User:qwertz143|qwertz143]] ([[User talk:qwertz143|talk]]) 1:51, September 5, 2020 (IST) | |||
Could you make a tier list based on character popularity, the best placement at a major, winning/losing MU's etc.? Or would that not work? [[User:Zero Suit|Zero Suit]] ([[User talk:Zero Suit|talk]]) 05:25, September 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
As I said i in my vote above, why not have a page that shows tournament matchups within a major update period, with a running total for all matchups to see who appears to do best against who among those dedicated tournamenters. This could also help show which characters are "top tier" due more to just high usage as well as which are "bottom tier" due to mere lack of popular use in tournament play. It would serve the same effect as a tier list but able to be more fluid as well as letting people see the actual data driving the status of "top/bottom tier".[[User:Jarie Suicune|Jarie Suicune]] ([[User talk:Jarie Suicune|talk]]) 22:58, October 11, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I don't get why some tier lists show Ganondorf to be low tier. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 20:45, October 22, 2020 (EDT) | |||
The reason why Ganon is shown to be low or bottom tier is how the metagame has progressed. Ganon's flaws are so noticeable due to his bad recovery, slow moves, and a big hitbox. [[User:Howplayz|<span style="font-family: Caveat;color:Black;">''How''</span>]][[User talk:Howplayz|<span style=" font-family: Caveat;color: Orange;">playz</span>'']] 22:20, October 22, 2020 (EDT) | |||
And I don't get why Zero Suit Samus is number 1 on Japanese tier lists. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 06:55, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
Lucina is overrated in my opinion. Some tier lists put here in Top tier when I think she's high tier at best. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:09, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
And I think characters like Pit, Dark Pit and Lucas are probably gonna be high mid-tier in by the end of Ultimate. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:19, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I don't get why Bowser Jr. is low tier. He seems decent enough on Wi-Fi. [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:22, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
But if we're talking about offline then I see why Bowser Jr. is awful [[User:Palutena|Palutena]] ([[User talk:Palutena|talk]]) 11:26, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:Please keep topics relevant to the discussion rather than ranting about character placements. [[User:RandomUltimate|RandomUltimate]] ([[User talk:RandomUltimate|talk]]) 11:29, October 23, 2020 (EDT) | |||
==Closing== | |||
It's been a year, so I'm closing the vote. Clearly option 2 is not very well-liked. While option 3 is the most popular, I am surprised at how much traction option 1 has gotten, so it doesn't feel right to simply wash it away as a "loser". | |||
So what now? I've been working on-and-off at how to construct part 2 of the vote, as well as a few ideas for how an aggregate list of ours would work. I plan to finish these up and (hopefully, nothing's guaranteed) have them ready for part 2 in a month. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 23:47, January 27, 2021 (EST) | |||