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Talk:Spirit/Archive 1: Difference between revisions
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==Fighter Spirits?== | ==Fighter Spirits?== | ||
Sakurai mentioned, and brought up a item in the shop called a "Fighter Spirit". In this case it was daisy, using her artwork for a mario party game. Can someone translate what he was saying at that moment and get a better idea of what fighter spirits are? [[User:Mindinaprogram|Mindinaprogram]] ([[User talk:Mindinaprogram|talk]]) 03:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)mindinaprogram | Sakurai mentioned, and brought up a item in the shop called a "Fighter Spirit". In this case it was daisy, using her artwork for a mario party game. Can someone translate what he was saying at that moment and get a better idea of what fighter spirits are? [[User:Mindinaprogram|Mindinaprogram]] ([[User talk:Mindinaprogram|talk]]) 03:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)mindinaprogram | ||
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Stats for Moblin & Bokoblin were switched. Corrected. [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 11:35, 15 January 2019 (EST) | Stats for Moblin & Bokoblin were switched. Corrected. [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 11:35, 15 January 2019 (EST) | ||
<div class=" | <div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-expandtext="Show table" data-collapsetext="Hide table"> | ||
{|class="wikitable sortable" | {|class="wikitable sortable" | ||
!#!!Name!!Type!!Series!!Class!!Type!!Slots!!Att!!Def!!Ability Icon!!Ability!!Enhancement | !#!!Name!!Type!!Series!!Class!!Type!!Slots!!Att!!Def!!Ability Icon!!Ability!!Enhancement | ||
| Line 3,075: | Line 3,076: | ||
*Air Mobility ×0.85 | *Air Mobility ×0.85 | ||
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.8 | *Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.8 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8 | |||
| | | | ||
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.2 | *[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.2 | ||
| Line 3,086: | Line 3,088: | ||
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8 | *Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2 | |||
*Air Mobility ×1.3 | *Air Mobility ×1.3 | ||
| | | | ||
| Line 3,106: | Line 3,109: | ||
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.2 | *Ground & Item Mobility ×1.2 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8 | |||
*Air Mobility ×1.1 | *Air Mobility ×1.1 | ||
| | | | ||
| Line 3,117: | Line 3,121: | ||
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.7 | *Ground & Item Mobility ×0.7 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2 | |||
*Air Mobility ×1.1 | *Air Mobility ×1.1 | ||
*Weight ×1.2 | *Weight ×1.2 | ||
| Line 3,128: | Line 3,133: | ||
*Jump ×0.6 | *Jump ×0.6 | ||
*Air Mobility ×1.2 | *Air Mobility ×1.2 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.7 | |||
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.7 | *Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.7 | ||
| | | | ||
| Line 3,139: | Line 3,145: | ||
*Fall & Fastfall Speed ×0.8 | *Fall & Fastfall Speed ×0.8 | ||
*Air Mobility ×0.9 | *Air Mobility ×0.9 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.3 | |||
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×1.3 | *Wall & Ledge Jump ×1.3 | ||
*Gravity ×1.0{{rollover|*|Hard-coded}} | *Gravity ×1.0{{rollover|*|Hard-coded}} | ||
| Line 3,152: | Line 3,159: | ||
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8 | *Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8 | |||
*Air Mobility ×0.9 | *Air Mobility ×0.9 | ||
| | | | ||
| Line 3,165: | Line 3,173: | ||
*Additional Acceleration ×0.8 | *Additional Acceleration ×0.8 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.4 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.4 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.4 | |||
*Air Mobility ×1.3 | *Air Mobility ×1.3 | ||
*Weight ×0.8 | *Weight ×0.8 | ||
| Line 3,185: | Line 3,194: | ||
*Healing Amount ×1.2 | *Healing Amount ×1.2 | ||
*Assist Trophy Attack ×1.1 | *Assist Trophy Attack ×1.1 | ||
*Transformation & Equipment Duration ×1.2 | |||
| | | | ||
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.1 | *[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.1 | ||
| Line 3,207: | Line 3,217: | ||
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.6 | *Ground & Item Mobility ×1.6 | ||
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.1 | *Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.1 | ||
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2 | |||
*Fall & Fastfall Speed ×1.3 | *Fall & Fastfall Speed ×1.3 | ||
*Item Attack ×1.2 | *Item Attack ×1.2 | ||
| Line 3,219: | Line 3,230: | ||
:::I'd recommend listing transformation and equipment separately since the spirit ability doesn't seem to affect equipment. Same goes for the midair jump height and speed, they're not the same thing. As for the last 2, the only thing I can think of (and these are very long shots) is that the vertical friction thing refers to how quickly a fighter's rate of fall slows down to their falling speed if they're currently falling faster (due to things like cancelling a fastfall with an airdodge, or the set fall speed of 1.8 during vertical knockback). As for fly speed y mul, I couldn't find that in the spreadsheet you linked, so I have nothing to work with. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:56, February 26, 2020 (EST) | :::I'd recommend listing transformation and equipment separately since the spirit ability doesn't seem to affect equipment. Same goes for the midair jump height and speed, they're not the same thing. As for the last 2, the only thing I can think of (and these are very long shots) is that the vertical friction thing refers to how quickly a fighter's rate of fall slows down to their falling speed if they're currently falling faster (due to things like cancelling a fastfall with an airdodge, or the set fall speed of 1.8 during vertical knockback). As for fly speed y mul, I couldn't find that in the spreadsheet you linked, so I have nothing to work with. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:56, February 26, 2020 (EST) | ||
::::That's fair for both, got a little overzealous with condensing them. The fastfall to regular fall speed sounds the most logical right now. And fly_speed_y_mul is column BA, next to air_accel_x_mul, in the 'stale_personal_2' sheet. I made a copy of it on my drive to view it. Most of the values are close to the jump speed ones, but there are a few outliers. [https://i.imgur.com/hYuccj0.png Here] is an image if you don't want to make a copy. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:09, February 26, 2020 (EST) | ::::That's fair for both, got a little overzealous with condensing them. The fastfall to regular fall speed sounds the most logical right now. And fly_speed_y_mul is column BA, next to air_accel_x_mul, in the 'stale_personal_2' sheet. I made a copy of it on my drive to view it. Most of the values are close to the jump speed ones, but there are a few outliers. [https://i.imgur.com/hYuccj0.png Here] is an image if you don't want to make a copy. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:09, February 26, 2020 (EST) | ||
:::::Given that it's lumped in with a bunch of jump varients, I doubt it's to do with knockback, which is usually '''damage'''_fly_speed rather than just fly_speed anyway. It might refer to multi-jumps but I can't think of anything else. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:18, February 26, 2020 (EST) | |||
::::::I went ahead and added the 'probably solved' values to the table. Ignoring the two unknowns, do you think the table is good to be placed on the main page?--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:28, February 26, 2020 (EST) | |||
:::::::I'd say so yes. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:31, February 26, 2020 (EST) | |||
== Secondary Stat Effects == | == Secondary Stat Effects == | ||
| Line 3,245: | Line 3,259: | ||
:::::::That was actually a lot faster than I expected. Results: at 0 400f; 50 350f; 100 300f; 200 200f; 300 100f; 400 0f. So for every percent of damage, subtract 1 frame. With 10000 defense at 0 it was 200f; at 100 100f; and 200 0f. With 10000 defense a flat 200f is removed. The Allen spirit has 2954 defense which translates to 59f removed with the old formula (defense/50). At 300 it should be 400-300-59=41f and my test reflected this. So the full formula is: <code>(400f - damage) - INT(defense/50)</code> | :::::::That was actually a lot faster than I expected. Results: at 0 400f; 50 350f; 100 300f; 200 200f; 300 100f; 400 0f. So for every percent of damage, subtract 1 frame. With 10000 defense at 0 it was 200f; at 100 100f; and 200 0f. With 10000 defense a flat 200f is removed. The Allen spirit has 2954 defense which translates to 59f removed with the old formula (defense/50). At 300 it should be 400-300-59=41f and my test reflected this. So the full formula is: <code>(400f - damage) - INT(defense/50)</code> | ||
:::::::I made the old formula with the intent of only cutting the base time in half, not knowing at the time a nicer way to write it. Didn't think it would inadvertently be the proper formula. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:41, February 6, 2020 (EST) | :::::::I made the old formula with the intent of only cutting the base time in half, not knowing at the time a nicer way to write it. Didn't think it would inadvertently be the proper formula. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:41, February 6, 2020 (EST) | ||
== Asterisks? == | |||
Some of the tables on this page have several things marked with an asterisk, but nowhere on the page does it say what those mean at all, unless I'm missing something here. Can that be clarified? [[Special:Contributions/76.218.109.55|76.218.109.55]] 04:13, March 4, 2020 (EST) | |||
:The asterisks are for rollover text. Though it doesn't seem to work well on mobile. I'll try to work something out soon.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 07:15, March 4, 2020 (EST) | |||
== Weight Up 2 and Traits == | |||
I'm going to say this here before it becomes an edit war. Weight ↑ ↑ has both a 'trait' (only on primaries) and a 'skill' (supports and enhanced) version. They are referred to has different things in [https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1232660901666254848 the code]. The trait is personal_weight_up_large and the skill is weight_up_large, they are different. If we are going to merge traits and skills based on their name, then lets merge Fist Attack ↑, Foot Attack ↑, Magic Attack ↑, Jump ↑ , etc. The two are different, they should be separate.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:06, March 16, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:From what I understand, "Fist Attack ↑" as a skill stacks differently with supports than "Fist Attack ↑" as a trait. On the other hand, I imagine that there won't be a Weight (U)(U) support trait, so it's wrong, but not effectively wrong, to merge the Weight skill and trait (though it'd add more confusion for other skill+trait combinations). | |||
:I vote to keep them separate, but make sure the difference between skills and traits is clearly stated in the article (if it isn't already). --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 03:00, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | |||
I have no idea where you got the idea that enhanceable spirit abilities are not traits, because the game refers to them as traits as well. Regardless, your comparisons are flawed, because, for example, the jump trait for enhanceables is different from the jump trait for non-enhanceables, while the 2 weight double ups are identical. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 05:00, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:You failed to notice that the power values are different (5% and 8%). They will remain split. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Orchestral 07:28, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:It is mentioned at the top of the Spirit Effects sub-section that supports and enhances use Skills and primaries use Traits. But if you want proof. Mario jab 1 deals 2.2%, Chun-Li (enhanced) has 2.6736 attack and Physical ↑, giving 6.47%. An additional Physical ↑ gives 6.94%, an increase of ×1.0726 -- the same difference between 1.1 and 1.18, the values for a 1x and 2x. Giga Mac has 3.3224 attack and Fist ↑, giving 8.04%. Another Fist ↑ gives 8.84%, an increase of ×1.099 -- the same as if either were alone. Therefore, at the very least for Physical ↑, that gold-bordered 'Traits' act the same as Skills, going from 1x to 2x instead of straight multiplication. | |||
:On top of the testable difference, again there are the code names. Every Trait on the spreadsheet is personal_<something> whereas Skills aren't.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:24, March 17, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:It's long been known by some that enhanceable spirit abilities are more akin to a support's abilities than a non-enhanceable primary's abilities. [https://smashboards.com/threads/spirits-stats-and-trait-skill-style-multipliers.484615/ One source (July) says]: | |||
:* "Traits are only found on Primary Spirits" | |||
:* "Skills are found on Support Spirits and Primary Spirits that have been enhanced" | |||
:* "Traits do not count as another level towards Skills, they will instead multiply together." | |||
:--[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 15:57, March 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
::This discussion is already closed. Regardless, what some thread on Smashboards says is irrelevant, the game refers to both unenhanceable and enhanceable primary spirits' abilities as traits. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:00, March 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:::What some ''testers'' say on another forum is not irrelevant. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 16:13, March 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
::::Yes, it is. They can give them whatever name they want, but that doesn't change the fact that enhanceable spirit abilities are still referred to by the game as traits. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:16, March 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:::::<s>Hi, it is me, the tester from Smashboards.</s> Anyways, I did some digging to see if the game referred to enhanced Primary's abilities as traits or not within the tips and other places... it did not. Didn't say traits or skills outside of the sorting section. Though I did find [https://i.imgur.com/xLTWj6Z.jpg this]. In the top-left of the description for traits, it clarifies if it is a trait or a skill. You learn something new everyday.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:05, March 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||