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{{archive}}
==Fighter Spirits?==
==Fighter Spirits?==
Sakurai mentioned, and brought up a item in the shop called a "Fighter Spirit". In this case it was daisy, using her artwork for a mario party game. Can someone translate what he was saying at that moment and get a better idea of what fighter spirits are? [[User:Mindinaprogram|Mindinaprogram]] ([[User talk:Mindinaprogram|talk]]) 03:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)mindinaprogram
Sakurai mentioned, and brought up a item in the shop called a "Fighter Spirit". In this case it was daisy, using her artwork for a mario party game. Can someone translate what he was saying at that moment and get a better idea of what fighter spirits are? [[User:Mindinaprogram|Mindinaprogram]] ([[User talk:Mindinaprogram|talk]]) 03:00, 4 November 2018 (EST)mindinaprogram
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Stats for Moblin & Bokoblin were switched.  Corrected. [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 11:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)
Stats for Moblin & Bokoblin were switched.  Corrected. [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 11:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)


<div class="va-collapsible-content mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-expandtext="Show table" data-collapsetext="Hide table">
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-expandtext="Show table" data-collapsetext="Hide table">
{|class="wikitable sortable"
{|class="wikitable sortable"
!#!!Name!!Type!!Series!!Class!!Type!!Slots!!Att!!Def!!Ability Icon!!Ability!!Enhancement
!#!!Name!!Type!!Series!!Class!!Type!!Slots!!Att!!Def!!Ability Icon!!Ability!!Enhancement
Line 2,841: Line 2,842:
:::Using the above with the original example, 1.331 > 1.3, 1.331*.5 + 0.65 = 1.3155 * 2.796 = 3.678138 * 8 = 29.425104 ≈ 29.42
:::Using the above with the original example, 1.331 > 1.3, 1.331*.5 + 0.65 = 1.3155 * 2.796 = 3.678138 * 8 = 29.425104 ≈ 29.42
:::Here is a [https://i.imgur.com/NSOnQoq.png graph] I've made based on my testing, and yes there is a sudden jump at the 1.5× mark. This is not a thing most will run into because the main ways to trigger it are the above scenario, Trade-Off Attacks/Ability, and Poison Power Up (I've already adjusted them on the table to their true values). Another note is that a lot of the non-specific type abilities are grouped into their own type, which I personally call 'generic'. Trade-Offs, Critical-Healths, Poison Power Up, Special Attack (all of them), Dash, etc., and some Styles also use 'generic'. Metal Killer, Giant Killer, and Critical Hit (1 & 2) seem to ignore it all together.
:::Here is a [https://i.imgur.com/NSOnQoq.png graph] I've made based on my testing, and yes there is a sudden jump at the 1.5× mark. This is not a thing most will run into because the main ways to trigger it are the above scenario, Trade-Off Attacks/Ability, and Poison Power Up (I've already adjusted them on the table to their true values). Another note is that a lot of the non-specific type abilities are grouped into their own type, which I personally call 'generic'. Trade-Offs, Critical-Healths, Poison Power Up, Special Attack (all of them), Dash, etc., and some Styles also use 'generic'. Metal Killer, Giant Killer, and Critical Hit (1 & 2) seem to ignore it all together.
:::<small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanvasK|contribs]]) 16:18, January 28, 2020</small>
=== Categorization questions ===
* Are [[body]] attacks included in physical bonuses?
* Do Magic bonuses boost attacks with [[magic (effect)]] or [[magic (type)]]? Pages like [[flame]] and [[water (type)]] say that Spirit skills act on the effect and not the type.
** Same question for [[Energy]].
* If Fire bonuses boost Fire and Explosion effect attacks (and [[Darkness]] effect), what are Explosion effects that get boosted?
* Is "throwing" [[Throwing]] or [[Throw]] or [[Grab]]?
* Do the traits (not skills) for Fire and Water also apply to Explosion/Darkness and Ice?
--[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 22:12, January 29, 2020 (EST)
:From my old testing I believe: Punch and Elbow are Fist. Kick and Knee are Foot. Physical encompasses Fist and Foot and includes [[Body]], [[Head]], [[Bite]], [[Tail]], and Hip(aka Butt). In reference to (what I call) the 'limiter' above Physical does not contribute to the Fist or Foot type multiplier, but still affects them if that makes sense.
:I did a quick test with Daisy's dash attack which, according to Ruben's script viewer, is effect=magic type=punch and it was not boosted by Magic Up, so I think it only affects magic type.
:Another quick test with Ivsaur up smash, again based on the script viewer, is effect=normal type=bomb and was not boosted by Fire & Explosion Up, possibly only the effect.
:I'll try do more thorough testing soon (possibly tomorrow) for the remaining points, as well as try to catalog all the unique effects and types I can find in the script viewer. [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:51, January 29, 2020 (EST)
::While I was looking into this I've found something out about the 'limiter': it is only active with sword boosting abilities and 'generic' boosting abilities. For fist, foot, electric, etc. the numbers behaved normally, as if there was no 'limiter'<s>(like they are supposed to)</s>.
::Here's some of my type and effect findings so far:
::*The 'bomb' type is not affected by Fire/<b>Explosion</b>, just that most explosions also have fire, the [[explosive]] page has that right.
::*Darkness is unaffected by Fire Weakness, but affected by Fire/Explosion Up and Fire Attack Up.
::*Ice is unaffected by Water Attack Up and Water Weakness, but is affected by Water/Ice Up.
::*Water effect was affected by all of the water abilities, but water type was not affected by any of them.
::*Water type not affected by any Water abilities. Water effect is though
::*Throwing Power Up seems to only affect regular grabs (those caused by the grab button, not command grabs) and their collateral hitboxes. Attacks listed in the script viewer as type=throw or have an 'absolute' hitbox (like most throws and final smashes) but are not regular grabs were not affected.
::Speaking of the viewer, here are all the types I found that are used. 'PALUTENA' is any direct attack that Pit/Dark Pit use that involves their bow; not sure if it can be classed as 'weapon' because it is always accompanied by the 'cutup' effect (which I think is 'weapon'). 'OBJECT' is any weapon that doesn't fit into the other types.
::{| class="wikitable collapsable"
|-
| NONE || PUNCH || ELBOW || KICK || KNEE || BODY || BITE || HEAD
|-
| TAIL || HIP || OBJECT || SWORD || HAMMER || WHIP || PALUTENA || BAT
|-
| PARASOL || PIKMIN || MAGIC || PSI || WATER || ENERGY || BOMB || THROW
|}
::And the effects. Some weird ones are 'noamal' (only find on the non-bury hit of the hammers of G&W down-smash) and the last two which are in hex. The first one in hex is only on Byleth's uncharged arrow. The second is Ken's focus attack, which I thought would use 'saving' like Ryu since the rest of the script is nearly the same as Ryu's. Going over the rest would take a lot of space, so [https://i.imgur.com/Rq7gKHD.png click here] for some quick details I've already written (not 100% accurate but should be enough to get the gist).
::{| class="wikitable"
|-
| none || normal || sting || cutup || rush || fire || elec || water || purple || ice
|-
| aura || magic || paralyze || pierce || sleep || sleep_ex || bury || bury_r || turn || search
|-
| blaster_throw_down || blaster_throw_up || deathball || ink_hit || flower || jack_bullet || curse_poison || jack_final || dedede_hammer || marth_shield_breaker
|-
| coin || mario_local_coin || stop || bind_extra || palutena_bullet || whip || stab || saving || lay || slip
|-
| taiyo_hit || noamal || 0x1d7a481588 || 0x192a2f9ba6 ||  || || || ||  ||
|}
::--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 21:46, February 2, 2020 (EST)


== Style mechanics ==
== Style mechanics ==
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::* +100
::* +100
::[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:43, December 16, 2019 (EST)
::[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:43, December 16, 2019 (EST)
:::The data on some of these don't seem to be completely accurate. I compiled a list of stat changes from Dojo styles a while back. https://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Trainer_Alex/Dojo_technical_data ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 16:25, January 28, 2020 (EST)
::::Additionally, it's worth noting that the most accurate way to compare movement speed statistics is using wind zones in stage builder. Each unit on the power setting is equal to 0.02 (all movement stats use a universal unit of speed). ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 16:28, January 28, 2020 (EST)
:::::I went through your list and made note of the differences. Where you have 'Damage received' I have as Defense, do 1/defense to get damage received or 1/damage received to get defense. Runner I'm not sure why my jump height is different, I'll retest later. And for the jump height of Lightweight and Ninja I accounted for the weight difference (or at least tried). When I tested Weight Down I got a higher jump, so I applied that knowledge to the two styles. If I knew a test for jump height that ignored weight I would use it.
:::::I'll keep the movement speed thing in mind next time I need to test it, but I think my results are accurate enough to not need retesting at the moment (may make fall speed testing less painful). I don't like using custom stages for testing because of how long it takes to get back into it, which is why I did character comparisons in Training. [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:50, January 28, 2020 (EST)
::::::Weight and jump height are completely independent stats. The weight decreasing spirit ability increases a fighter's jump height manually. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 16:53, January 28, 2020 (EST)
:::::::If that is the case then I'll retest those and some abilities without wrongly accounting for weight, and make corrections in my notes and on the main page tables. I thought I read somewhere that weight had an impact on jump height, I very easily could have misread something because when I wanted to test jump height I was grasping at anything that I could use. Outside of the jump height discrepancies, gravity, and secondary jump height (the latter two I don't have data on) I believe the rest of our data lines up. [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:21, January 28, 2020 (EST)
::::::::Very well. Although the grab range data you have probably isn't accurate either, as the game most likely uses a radius multiplier on all grabboxes in order to make the change universal, but this won't affect the overall range of every grab equally due to stretch and position offsets. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:24, January 28, 2020 (EST)
:::::::::I won't disagree about the accuracy, and I agree that it probably is a radius multiplier. I used Young Link because he only has a single circle hitbox on his hookshot once it starts travelling. A quick retest on a sandbag does have me questioning my result, appearing closer to 1.5 than 1.25. Testing against Kirby with Young Link makes me think anywhere between 1.5-2.0. Overall I can't say for certain, I'll have to find a more reliable way to test it. [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:57, January 28, 2020 (EST)
Recently Meshima posted a spreadsheet ([https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1232660901666254848 link]) with a lot of spirit code. I looked through the style sheet and collected and condensed all of the values that I could below. There are some values I didn't know what they related to, so I left them out for now (<s>jump_aerial_speed_y, jump_aerial_motion_mul</s>, fly_speed_y_mul, air_brake_y, <s>item_state_frame, item_equipment_frame</s>). If anyone can figure out what those missing values mean then feel free to add them to the table and make a note of your edit.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:57, February 26, 2020 (EST)
{| class="wikitable"
!scope="row"| {{rollover|Standard Attacks|Any attack that requires only the standard-button}}
|Neutral Attack, Tilt Attack, Dash Attack, Smash Attack, Edge Attack, Floor Attack
|-
!scope="row"| Ground Mobility
|Max Walk Speed, Base Acceleration, Additional Acceleration, Initial Dash Speed, Max Dash Speed, Base Dash Acceleration, Additional Dash Acceleration, Crawl Speed
|-
!scope="row"| Air Mobility
|Max Air Speed, Base Acceleration, Additional Acceleration, Air Friction
|-
!scope="row"| Jump
|Jump, shorthop, footstool height and speed
|-
!scope="row"| Item Mobility
|Same as Ground Mobility, but for carry heavy items are using shooting items
|}
{|class="wikitable"
!Style!!Master!!Effects!!Team Power
|-
| Demon
| Ryoma
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×1.2
*Defense ×0.8
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.2
*[[File:Equipment Icon Protection Badge.png|20px|Def]] ×0.8
|-
| Land
| Cap'n Cuttlefish
|
*Standard Attacks, Grounded Specials, Throws, Pummels ×1.2
*Aerials, Aerial Specials ×0.3
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.2
*Jump ×1.2
*Air Mobility ×0.85
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.8
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.2
*[[File:Equipment Icon Protection Badge.png|20px|Def]] ×0.8
|-
| Air
| Peppy Hare
|
*Standard Attacks, Grounded Specials, Throws, Pummels ×0.3
*Aerials, Aerial Specials ×1.2
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2
*Air Mobility ×1.3
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Brick-Wall
| Copper & Booker
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×0.5
*Defense ×1.3
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×0.8
*[[File:Equipment Icon Protection Badge.png|20px|Def]] ×1.2
|-
| Boulder
| Darunia
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×0.7
*Defense ×1.1
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.2
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8
*Air Mobility ×1.1
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Big-Bee
| Honey Queen
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×0.6
*Defense ×1.15
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.7
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.2
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2
*Air Mobility ×1.1
*Weight ×1.2
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Runner
| Dr. Stewart
|
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.5
*Jump ×0.6
*Air Mobility ×1.2
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.7
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×0.7
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Gravity
| Gravity Man
|
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.5
*Jump ×1.5
*Fall & Fastfall Speed ×0.8
*Air Mobility ×0.9
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.3
*Wall & Ledge Jump ×1.3
*Gravity ×1.0{{rollover|*|Hard-coded}}
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.4
*[[File:Equipment Icon Protection Badge.png|20px|Def]] ×0.6
|-
| Tank
| Kraid
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×1.1
*Defense ×1.2
*Ground & Item Mobility ×0.8
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×0.8
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×0.8
*Air Mobility ×0.9
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×0.6
*[[File:Equipment Icon Protection Badge.png|20px|Def]] ×1.4
|-
| Lightweight
| Wii Balance Board
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Throws, Pummels ×0.6
*Defense ×0.85
*Ground Mobility{{rollover|*|Minus Additional Acceleration}} ×1.4
*Additional Acceleration ×0.8
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.4
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.4
*Air Mobility ×1.3
*Weight ×0.8
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Strategist
| Riki
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Throws, Pummels, Items ×0.7
*Specials ×1.2
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Equipment
| Dyntos
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials ×0.6
*Item Attack ×1.2
*Healing Amount ×1.2
*Assist Trophy Attack ×1.1
*Transformation & Equipment Duration ×1.2
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.1
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Overthrow
| Zangief
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials, Items ×0.6
*Throws/Pummels ×1.5
*Grab Radius ×1.5
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Brawn Badge.png|20px|Atk]] ×1.1
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|-
| Ninja
| Kat & Ana
|
*Standard Attacks, Aerials, Specials ×0.5
*Throws/Pummels ×1.3
*Defense ×0.8
*Ground & Item Mobility ×1.6
*Jump, Wall jump, Ledge jump ×1.1
*Midair Jump Speed & Additional Speed ×1.2
*Fall & Fastfall Speed ×1.3
*Item Attack ×1.2
*Weight ×0.65
*Gravity ×1.6
|
*[[File:Equipment Icon Power Badge.png|20px|Power]] +100
|}
:Equipment style affects transformation duration and how long equipped items (such as back shield) last. Perhaps these are what item_state_frame and item_equipment_frame mean. If I had to guess, I'd say jump_aerial_speed_y is midair jump force (which appears to be different from ground jump force) and  jump_aerial_motion_mul is initial forward/backward midair jump speed, as when you perform a midair jump while holding forward or backward, rather than losing all of your speed, it sets your speed to a value specific to each fighter (which is usually a little lower than their air speed). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:24, February 26, 2020 (EST)
::Oh, that makes a lot of sense. The params sheet does list jump_aerial_y as 'air jump height'. I think I'll list both item_state_frame and item_equipment_frame as "Transformation Time", jump_aerial_speed_y and jump_aerial_motion_mul as "Midair Jump Speed" since they have the same values. I think fly_speed_y_mul has something to do with being launched, since most things with 'fly' in the param name have something to do with knockback. air_brake_y has something to do with friction based on the name. The params says it is 'V accel', but doesn't gravity serve as vertical accel?--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 15:49, February 26, 2020 (EST)
:::I'd recommend listing transformation and equipment separately since the spirit ability doesn't seem to affect equipment. Same goes for the midair jump height and speed, they're not the same thing. As for the last 2, the only thing I can think of (and these are very long shots) is that the vertical friction thing refers to how quickly a fighter's rate of fall slows down to their falling speed if they're currently falling faster (due to things like cancelling a fastfall with an airdodge, or the set fall speed of 1.8 during vertical knockback). As for fly speed y mul, I couldn't find that in the spreadsheet you linked, so I have nothing to work with. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:56, February 26, 2020 (EST)
::::That's fair for both, got a little overzealous with condensing them. The fastfall to regular fall speed sounds the most logical right now. And fly_speed_y_mul is column BA, next to air_accel_x_mul, in the 'stale_personal_2' sheet. I made a copy of it on my drive to view it. Most of the values are close to the jump speed ones, but there are a few outliers. [https://i.imgur.com/hYuccj0.png Here] is an image if you don't want to make a copy. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:09, February 26, 2020 (EST)
:::::Given that it's lumped in with a bunch of jump varients, I doubt it's to do with knockback, which is usually '''damage'''_fly_speed rather than just fly_speed anyway. It might refer to multi-jumps but I can't think of anything else. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:18, February 26, 2020 (EST)
::::::I went ahead and added the 'probably solved' values to the table. Ignoring the two unknowns, do you think the table is good to be placed on the main page?--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:28, February 26, 2020 (EST)
:::::::I'd say so yes. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:31, February 26, 2020 (EST)
== Secondary Stat Effects ==
Along with increasing damage output and resistance, the stats a primary spirit have also affect other things. Here are my findings so far. The stats used factor in the series boost. Max/min is with a stat of 10000 (since even with the series boost it is capped at 10000) and no skills or traits.
Attack stat
*Smash Attack Charge speed = 60f/attack multiplier or 60f/(1+(attack*4/10000))
**Min 12f
Defense stat
*Shield break duration = 400 - 200*(defense/10000) or 400 - (defense/50)
**Min (without inputs) 200f
*Shield depletion rate = 0.15/(1+(defense/10000))
**Min 0.075/f, shield stays up for 666f instead of 333f
*Shield recharge rate = 0.08*(1+(defense/10000))
**Max 0.16/f
Anyone know of any other things that are affected by stats? I've already tested ledge grab duration and intangibility with defense, and I can't think of anything that attack would affect. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanvasK|contribs]]) 17:47, February 1, 2020</small>
:Only other thing I can think of is shieldstun, which would be difficult, but not impossible, to test. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 18:04, February 1, 2020 (EST)
::On inspection, it appears unaffected. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 18:15, February 1, 2020 (EST)
:::On another note, the shield break stun duration is definitely less than half at higher percents. Did you only test it at 0 percent? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:54, February 6, 2020 (EST)
::::I did only test at 0. I wasn't aware that the stun time is shorter with more damage. Is there a known formula for it? I'm not seeing it on the wiki.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:07, February 6, 2020 (EST)
:::::I don't know the formula, but it's probably out there. At around 150%+ a fighter with 10,000 defense exits stun almost immediately, and if stun duration were decreased by a factor rather than a constant amount, this wouldn't happen, since base shield break stun at this percent still lasts for around 3 seconds. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 17:13, February 6, 2020 (EST)
::::::Darn. I think I know a way to estimate what the formula could be, but testing it isn't going to be fun. I'll try to test it today and post my results later today or sometime tomorrow. Current knowns: at 0% 400f -> 200f; at 100% roughly 300f -> 100f (this was a quick test, take it with a grain of salt).--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:34, February 6, 2020 (EST)
:::::::That was actually a lot faster than I expected. Results: at 0 400f; 50 350f; 100 300f; 200 200f; 300 100f; 400 0f. So for every percent of damage, subtract 1 frame. With 10000 defense at 0 it was 200f; at 100 100f; and 200 0f. With 10000 defense a flat 200f is removed. The Allen spirit has 2954 defense which translates to 59f removed with the old formula (defense/50). At 300 it should be 400-300-59=41f and my test reflected this. So the full formula is: <code>(400f - damage) - INT(defense/50)</code>
:::::::I made the old formula with the intent of only cutting the base time in half, not knowing at the time a nicer way to write it. Didn't think it would inadvertently be the proper formula. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:41, February 6, 2020 (EST)
== Asterisks? ==
Some of the tables on this page have several things marked with an asterisk, but nowhere on the page does it say what those mean at all, unless I'm missing something here. Can that be clarified? [[Special:Contributions/76.218.109.55|76.218.109.55]] 04:13, March 4, 2020 (EST)
:The asterisks are for rollover text. Though it doesn't seem to work well on mobile. I'll try to work something out soon.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 07:15, March 4, 2020 (EST)
== Weight Up 2 and Traits ==
I'm going to say this here before it becomes an edit war. Weight ↑ ↑ has both a 'trait' (only on primaries) and a 'skill' (supports and enhanced) version. They are referred to has different things in [https://twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1232660901666254848 the code]. The trait is personal_weight_up_large and the skill is weight_up_large, they are different. If we are going to merge traits and skills based on their name, then lets merge Fist Attack ↑, Foot Attack ↑, Magic Attack ↑, Jump ↑ , etc. The two are different, they should be separate.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:06, March 16, 2020 (EDT)
:From what I understand, "Fist Attack ↑" as a skill stacks differently with supports than "Fist Attack ↑" as a trait. On the other hand, I imagine that there won't be a Weight (U)(U) support trait, so it's wrong, but not effectively wrong, to merge the Weight skill and trait (though it'd add more confusion for other skill+trait combinations).
:I vote to keep them separate, but make sure the difference between skills and traits is clearly stated in the article (if it isn't already). --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 03:00, March 17, 2020 (EDT)
I have no idea where you got the idea that enhanceable spirit abilities are not traits, because the game refers to them as traits as well. Regardless, your comparisons are flawed, because, for example, the jump trait for enhanceables is different from the jump trait for non-enhanceables, while the 2 weight double ups are identical. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 05:00, March 17, 2020 (EDT)
:You failed to notice that the power values are different (5% and 8%). They will remain split. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Orchestral 07:28, March 17, 2020 (EDT)
:It is mentioned at the top of the Spirit Effects sub-section that supports and enhances use Skills and primaries use Traits. But if you want proof. Mario jab 1 deals 2.2%, Chun-Li (enhanced) has 2.6736 attack and Physical ↑, giving 6.47%. An additional Physical ↑ gives 6.94%, an increase of ×1.0726 -- the same difference between 1.1 and 1.18, the values for a 1x and 2x. Giga Mac has 3.3224 attack and Fist ↑, giving 8.04%. Another Fist ↑ gives 8.84%, an increase of ×1.099 -- the same as if either were alone. Therefore, at the very least for Physical ↑, that gold-bordered 'Traits' act the same as Skills, going from 1x to 2x instead of straight multiplication.
:On top of the testable difference, again there are the code names. Every Trait on the spreadsheet is personal_<something> whereas Skills aren't.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:24, March 17, 2020 (EDT)
:It's long been known by some that enhanceable spirit abilities are more akin to a support's abilities than a non-enhanceable primary's abilities. [https://smashboards.com/threads/spirits-stats-and-trait-skill-style-multipliers.484615/ One source (July) says]:
:* "Traits are only found on Primary Spirits"
:* "Skills are found on Support Spirits and Primary Spirits that have been enhanced"
:* "Traits do not count as another level towards Skills, they will instead multiply together."
:--[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 15:57, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
::This discussion is already closed. Regardless, what some thread on Smashboards says is irrelevant, the game refers to both unenhanceable and enhanceable primary spirits' abilities as traits. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:00, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
:::What some ''testers'' say on another forum is not irrelevant. --[[User:Raijinili|Raijinili]] ([[User talk:Raijinili|talk]]) 16:13, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
::::Yes, it is. They can give them whatever name they want, but that doesn't change the fact that enhanceable spirit abilities are still referred to by the game as traits. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:16, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
:::::<s>Hi, it is me, the tester from Smashboards.</s> Anyways, I did some digging to see if the game referred to enhanced Primary's abilities as traits or not within the tips and other places... it did not. Didn't say traits or skills outside of the sorting section. Though I did find [https://i.imgur.com/xLTWj6Z.jpg this]. In the top-left of the description for traits, it clarifies if it is a trait or a skill. You learn something new everyday.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:05, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
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