Editing Talk:Counter

"If three or more Marths are playing, it is possible to repeatedly Counter to huge amounts of damage. For this to work with Ike or Roy, who have slower counter strikes and slower counter activations than Marth, it is recommended to have four players play as Ike or Roy." How can this be? I can't imagine how 4 Ikes can counter over and over. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 12:59, 22 June 2012 (EDT)
:I think if you have a 2-on-2 battle, then the counter chain can go Red 1-Blue 1-Red 2-Blue 2-repeat. I don't know if it's feasible though considering the positioning required. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Wacko 17:46, 22 June 2012 (EDT)
::Right, I'm asking because I tried a TAS with this, and got no success. I even used a custom stage to make sure the Ikes were in their respective cells, but the problem is that if it goes attack -> counter -> counter, this last counter will hit the Ike that attacked. I got it to not do that in one situation, but that Ike was swept away, as if he had hit a shield. So I assumed I was overthinking into these strategies and hoped someone'd clear up on an easy, direct way to do it. If nobody's got any ideas, I'd remove this tidbit from the page, as it's just speculation. Damn, I really want to see a counter chain. — '''{''[[User:Espyo|Espyo]]''<sup>[[User talk:Espyo|T]]</sup>}''' 15:27, 30 June 2012 (EDT)

== Move ==

I added the move tag as Palutena, a newcomer in Smash 4, will also have access to a move named Counter, which works in the same manner as the Fire Emblem reps' Counter. However, she's a Kid Icarus character and not a Fire Emblem one, so a move for this page may be necessary, with the resulting redirect possibly becoming a disambiguation page. Thoughts? [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 23:08, 8 July 2014 (EDT)

: We probably should make a disambiguation page once  Smash 4 comes out, and we have enough detailed information about it. If we added it now, I feel it'll be overkill. [[User:MintyGuy700|MintyGuy700]] ([[User talk:MintyGuy700|talk]]) 23:44, 16 July 2014 (EDT)
::Yeah, sounds like a good idea. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 08:37, 17 July 2014 (EDT)
::It seems that Pikachu's/Pichu's Thunder underwent a similar fate when a non-Pokémon character, Robin. had a special by that name. That move was done because there was enough information on Robin's version to warrant a page creation and move for Pikachu's/Pichu's version.
::As is the case of Counter, not much is known about Palutena's version, except for its origin, that it was a counterattack, and she was calling the attack in her trailer, which confirmed the name. Then again, many new SSB4 specials start out with the basics listed. I will still hold off on the move until more of Palutena's version is known, but I'll keep the discussion open in case someone wants to share their thoughts on the matter. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 08:33, 21 July 2014 (EDT)
:::I think we shouldn't move the page for now, but should do so when Sakurai says "Counter is Palutena's default down special" or something to that effect. (Or if he doesn't mention it, once we start getting Japanese screenshots that say what move it is.) [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:38, 21 July 2014 (EDT)
::::Since we know hardly anything about her specials in general, I may consider removing the notice until more evidence appears, unless if someone thinks it should stay. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 12:00, 21 July 2014 (EDT)

Well, some Famitsu scans surfaced focusing on the KI reps recently, and Palutena indeed has a down special move named Counter, which works similarly to the FE variant, as I thought. [http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/807/018/31d.png Here's the page in question.] However, I won't move this page yet until given the word. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 12:36, 7 August 2014 (EDT)
:Just looked at what links to this page. We may have our work cut out for us if the move is made, just like for Thunder. Palutena's variant now has a page, and I already made a disambiguation page. Now that I brought back discussion, what do you guys think? [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 11:12, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
::It's still a tough call. Unlike Thunder, which was 2 Pokemon users to 1 FE user, Counter is 4 FE users to 1 KI user. It might be worth leaving this one as is due to that ratio. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:37, 8 August 2014 (EDT)
:::Gotcha. Will go ahead and leave the page as is for now. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 12:15, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

== Palutena's Counter ==

Why is Palutena's Counter treated as being the same as the Fire Emblem characters' counter? Just because it has the same name doesn't mean that it's meant to be a variation of theirs. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 19:33, 22 January 2015 (EST)
:It's counted because, while it may function a little bit differently, it's still the same move. Take {{SSBB|Ike}} in ''Brawl'', for example. His Counter was activated LONG after Marth's would have. And yet, it's still the same move. [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]][[User:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''BlueStreak'''</span>]] [[User talk:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''Speeds By'''</span>]] 19:37, 22 January 2015 (EST)
::Wouldn't Blade Counter and Slip Counter also be counted for that because they're the same move? It doesn't seem to make sense because every counterattack of that type is very similar. However, all of the default Counters for the Fire Emblem characters in Super Smash Bros. 4 deal the same multiple of damage while the others don't. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 06:11, 23 January 2015 (EST)

Where is Palutena's Counter being treated as the same? Fire Emblem characters with Counter use this page, Palutena has [[Counter (Palutena)]]. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 06:23, 23 January 2015 (EST)
:It's why the last trivia point says that 5 characters share the same move, although I consider Palutena's Counter to be separate from the Fire Emblem characters' Counter even if they have the same name. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 06:57, 23 January 2015 (EST)
::While all of that is true, take a look at [[Reflector|this]]. It has both Falco's ''and'' Wolf's on there, even though the moves function a LOT differently from Fox's. It's either all or nothing with this one. [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]][[User:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''BlueStreak'''</span>]] [[User talk:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''Speeds By'''</span>]] 08:51, 23 January 2015 (EST)
:::The difference is that all three Reflectors have the same origin. The Fire Emblem counter and Palutena's counter have different origins. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 09:49, 23 January 2015 (EST)
::::Miles just reworded the trivia point, and the rewording is something I can agree to. Case closed. [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]][[User:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''BlueStreak'''</span>]] [[User talk:BlueStreak|<span style="color: blue;">'''Speeds By'''</span>]] 09:55, 23 January 2015 (EST)

== Counter voice clips ==

I swear, in the new update, the previously unused voice clips are now used. I swear I heard Lucina say "My turn!" once in an FG match. [[File:Aidanzapunksignature.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Master of Speed and Aura'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 12:53, 15 June 2015 (EDT)

After testing by countering Bob-ombs in Training, I can confirm this. She doesn't say it all the time though, only really occasionally. Testing with Marth shows he doesn't use any of his ones though, along with Ike.
[[User:Archrelico|Archrelico]] ([[User talk:Archrelico|talk]]) 17:42, 15 June 2015 (EDT)

== Heartbeat visual==

I notice that even in melee, there was the Heartbeat visual. It's not just as obvious as they had made it in the later games due to visual quality. The images for ''melee'' and the gif provided do show the heartbeat if you look carefully. Shouldn't this be noted and reeditted into the page? - G-MY 22 July 2016

== Tipper/sweetspots ==

Do both Marth and Roy's counters have sweetspots (tippers in the case of Marth) across all the later three games? --[[User:SneaselSawashiro|SneaselSawashiro]] ([[User talk:SneaselSawashiro|talk]]) 19:41, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
:Neither of them do, at least in Melee. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:42, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
|:Not in Brawl or Sm4sh, either. Why do you ask? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:33, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
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 Do both Marth and Roy's counters have sweetspots (tippers in the case of Marth) across all the later three games? --[[User:SneaselSawashiro|SneaselSawashiro]] ([[User talk:SneaselSawashiro|talk]]) 19:41, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
 :Neither of them do, at least in Melee. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 20:42, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
-::Not in Brawl or Sm4sh, either. Why do you ask? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:33, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
+|:Not in Brawl or Sm4sh, either. Why do you ask? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:33, 5 August 2016 (EDT)
-:::Because if a counter were to have a sweetspot, it might interact oddly with how most counters deal damage based on the incoming move, and would therefore need to be mentioned somehow. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 09:03, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
-== Instructional quotes infobox not large enough ==
-The Instructional Quotes infobox can only handle 4 characters from a single game, but this one needs 5 (Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, and Ike). [[Special:Contributions/162.205.41.141|162.205.41.141]] 00:01, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
-:I extended the template to be capable of receiving 5 at once. Thanks for bringing it to our attention! [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:39, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
-== Move 2 ==
-I think it should be moved to [[Counter (Fire Emblem)]]. [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 07:10, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
-:'''Oppose'''. As I said above, years ago, the ratio of characters who have this version to anything else is substantial enough that I believe this should remain the title. In fact, the number of FE characters with a counter has increased from 4 to 5 - clearly the most prominent thing people would be looking up under this name and enough to warrant not needing a parenthetical. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:08, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
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