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Talk:Nerf: Difference between revisions
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: I know we just voted to keep this article, but rather than exemplifying why the article was nominated for deletion in the first place, it'd be nice if you guys would read the discussion that ensued (specifically, the part about what the article should look like). You'll note that the discussion concluded that simply listing characters as "nerfed" without community (Smash community, not SmashWiki community) consensus or an explanation was bad. --[[User:Kirby King|<font color="red"><b><i>Kirby King</i></b></font>]] 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC) | : I know we just voted to keep this article, but rather than exemplifying why the article was nominated for deletion in the first place, it'd be nice if you guys would read the discussion that ensued (specifically, the part about what the article should look like). You'll note that the discussion concluded that simply listing characters as "nerfed" without community (Smash community, not SmashWiki community) consensus or an explanation was bad. --[[User:Kirby King|<font color="red"><b><i>Kirby King</i></b></font>]] 22:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC) | ||
== Yoshi (Second time) == | |||
There's an inconsistency between the [[Buffed]] and [[Nerfed]] pages, where Yoshi was '''buffed''' in a minor way from Melee to Brawl, but '''nerfed''' in a major way from Melee to Brawl. How does this happen? [[User:Fried beef1|<font color="orange">Fried</font><font color="brown">beef</font><font color="orange">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:red"><span style="font-size: 60%">Argue</span></span>]] 21:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
:Some IP moved Yoshi from minorly nerfed in Brawl to majorly nerfed. <span style="color:#4CBB17">--Posted by</span> [[User:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">Pikamander2</span>]] <small>[[User Talk:Pikamander2|<span style="color:#007FFF">(Talk)</span>]]</small> at 23:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
::But still, it wouldn't make sense to have a character buffed and nerfed at the same time. The way I see it, it should be that it evens out. [[User:Fried beef1|<font color="orange">Fried</font><font color="brown">beef</font><font color="orange">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:red"><span style="font-size: 60%">Argue</span></span>]] 23:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC) | |||
== Specifics == | |||
It's great having a page which describes what "nerfed" is, but without further explanation and specific rationale for each character / move on the list, it is a useless list, and should be removed. [[User:Zixor|Zixor]] ([[User talk:Zixor|talk]]) 22:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Yoshi (third time) == | |||
He's nerfed. Deal with it. Link got buffed according to the SWF Link guide author, and Ganon is still very powerful although some of his moves are somewhat useless. LOL <span style="border:2px outset #33ff66;background-color:green;-moz-border-radius:3px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#99ff99;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#99ff99">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 18:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Toon Link/ Young Link == | |||
Are they really the same characters? I mean, sure they are both clones of link, but is that enough? If you say yes, because they have the same move set, then wolf/falco/fox is the same, pichu/pikachu is the same, marth/roy is the same, and toon link/link/young link are the same.--[[User:Kill Maim|Kill Maim]] ([[User talk:Kill Maim|talk]]) 12:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
==Ganondorf's u-smash and u-tilt== | |||
Now you do have a point but they should still be included as they were weakened in ''Brawl''. Fox's u-smash is often considered to be the best u-smash in ''Brawl'' but it was still weaker than it was in ''Melee''. Therefore it is included and Ganondorf's u-smash should be as well. As for his u-tilt. it did get faster (if only slightly) and the vacuum effect makes it much easier to land, but it was weakened enough to still be mentioned on this page. | |||
As for some exact numbers, I found these %s from the center of Pokemon Stadium on Bowser in both games. It is difficult to judge a difference of power between the two games, but these differences are large enough to be notable. As for his ''Melee'' u-smash, the first kick uncharged KOs at 86% while his ''Brawl'' uncharged sweetspotted u-smash KOs at 106%. As for the u-tilt, it KOs at 22% in ''Melee'' while KOing at 50% in ''Brawl'' if sweetspotted. Also, you're wrong about Ganondorf's sourspotted u-smash being stronger than Snake's u-tilt. The former KOs Bowser at 128% while the latter KOs him at 113%. [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega Tyrant]] [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 21:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Marth == | |||
Did he get buffed or nerfed? [[User:Avengingbandit|<font face="Soft Hits" color="#FFFF00">'''Avenging'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font face="Soft Hits" color="#FFFF00">'''bandit'''</font>]] [[File:Matchup4of8.png|20px|link=Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit]] 00:34, 8 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:It's a mix of both, as while he gained some benefits, he lost some attributes. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px|:p]] 00:37, 8 January 2012 (EST) | |||
::In the community, I believe it's generally agreed upon that Marth neither received an overall buff nor nerf; he's roughly at the same level as he was in ''Melee''. --- <font face="American Typewriter">''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]][[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]], Author Extraordinaire''</font>, 01:03, 8 January 2012 (EST) | |||
==Captain Falcon== | |||
His air speed was reduced? Due to his slower falling speed, it seems like his air speed was increased. [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 23:05, 18 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:Do you mean from SSB64 to Melee or from Melee to Brawl? In any case, Toomai can verify these things. [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:MatchupUnknown.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']] 00:27, 19 January 2012 (EST) | |||
::Just look at the [[air speed]] article. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:59, 19 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:::I saw it. Correct me if I'm wrong, 1.12 is faster than 1.18. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:01, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
::::Assuming Brawl is on the same scale as Melee (as it seems), 1.18 is a larger number than 1.12. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:09, 19 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:::::I know, so should the Brawl scale for C.F. be lower than Melee's? [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:23, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
::::::Going by the straight numbers, Brawl Falcon has faster air speed than Melee's. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:31, 19 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:::::::So should I revert the ''Air speed was reduced slightly'' from nerf and put ''Air speed was improved'' in buff? [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:44, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
::::::::Yes, the numbers don't lie. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:52, 19 January 2012 (EST) | |||
:::::::::No they do not, and done. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:57, 19 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
::::::::::I guess I was wrong... <font face="Algerian">[[User:Avengingbandit|<font color="#00BFBF">'''THE'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font color="#BF00BF">'''AVENGING'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit|<font color="#BFBF00">'''BANDIT'''</font>]]</font> 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST) | |||
==Fox== | |||
Fox's air speed in ''Melee'' isn't one of the slowest, it ''is'' the slowest. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 10:08, 20 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
:No, Bowser, Sheik, Ganondorf, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and Luigi have slower air speeds. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 12:55, 20 January 2012 (EST) | |||
::So, Luigi has the slowest air speed in ''Melee'', like in SSB64. [[User:Smash Master|Smash Master]] ([[User talk:Smash Master|talk]]) 00:17, 21 January 2012 (EST) [[File:KirbyHeadSSBB.png|19px]] | |||
:::Yay! I was right! <font face="Algerian">[[User:Avengingbandit|<font color="#00BFBF">'''THE'''</font>]][[User talk:Avengingbandit|<font color="#BF00BF">'''AVENGING'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Avengingbandit|<font color="#BFBF00">'''BANDIT'''</font>]]</font> 21:36, 22 January 2012 (EST) | |||
==Sheik== | |||
All of Sheik's aerials are weakended in ''Brawl''. Does Sheik's nair, bair, and uair still has KO power and cannot reliably KO under 150%? [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 20:19, 6 February 2012 (EST) | |||
:They still have some KO power, nair reaches terminal percentage at 144.04%, uair reaches at 154.93%, and bair reaches at 170.58%. Nair is the only one that can be expected to KO under 150%, and even then, heavies can still take a fresh nair above 150% and reasonably survive. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:33, 6 February 2012 (EST) | |||
== Jigglypuff == | |||
OT, Jigglypuff's jump height in Melee from the ground ''IS'' lower than SSB64, and I got proof, "''her jump was higher than Kirby's in SSB64, but in Melee, it is lower than Kirby's.''" Case closed. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 18:09, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:Its not really a notable difference. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|The]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|Autistic]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 18:22, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:How does that prove anything? In SSB64, each of her midair jumps have progressively decreased height, whereas in Melee, they all gain the same height. The initial jumping height isn't any lower. Learn some logic, and explain how Jigglypuff somehow has less overall jumping height, despite this. | |||
:Also throwing out a random statement, that isn't explained, is not sourced, and saying "case closed", makes you look like an ass. If you're talking about the initial jump height in regard to Kirby and Jiggly, your statement is wrong anyway, as seen on the tables on the [[jump]] article. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:29, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:Also, Jigglypuff's jumps are the lowest in all three games so increasing or decreasing them in Melee won't change her position. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|The]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|Autistic]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 18:41, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
::Explain, OK, in Dream Land, in SSB64, she can jump on the lower platforms, in Melee's Dream Land she can jump on them anymore. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 18:53, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::And the proof that stages and character models are the exact same size from N64 to Melee? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:54, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
::::Mabye the stage is the same size, I don't know if the characters are. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 19:01, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::::Then your measurement cannot be taken as valid. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:16, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
:::While I'm looking into conversion ratios, it's currently a foolish idea to try and measure character physics between those two games by using past stages. The measurement system of SSB64 is just so different than the SSBM/SSBB one. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Keymaster 19:36, 26 March 2012 (EDT) | |||
== [[Jigglypuff (SSB)]] == | |||
Can someone verify that it has the slowest dash speed?--[[User:Bandit|<font style="font-family:myriad pro;font-size:13pt;color:hsl(147.75,100%,50%)">Bandit</font>]] 09:51, 28 June 2012 (EDT) | |||
:[[Dash#SSB_Rankings|Dash rankings]], although that's consistent running speed, not sure if you're referring to initial dash. [[User:Smoreking|Smoreking]] ([[User talk:Smoreking|talk]]) 16:55, 28 June 2012 (EDT) | |||
==Split== | |||
'''Oppose''' This page shows nerfs for every game, which in my opinion, is better than having a page that only shows nerfs for one game. [[User:Bandit|<font style='font-family:myriad pro;font-size:13pt;color:hsl(168,100%,50%)'>Bandit</font>]] 11:12, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Support''' When SSB4 comes out, this page will increase in size massively, and become quite unwieldy to read. Plus it would be better organised than one massive page listing every buff in every game. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Support''' The page is over 24,000 bytes right now, it would radically grow. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 17:00, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Support''' Per OT and Toast. <span style="font-family:AR JULIAN; font-size:12pt">[[User:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:brown">Chuck</span>]][[User talk:ChuckNorris24|<span style="color:brown">Norris</span>]]</span>[[File:24.png|23px]] 17:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Strong support''' Keep in mind that the page should just about double when SSB4 comes out, assuming all characters have at least one minor nerf (Brawl has about as many characters as Melee and SSB 64 combined). [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:Anon.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']] 20:05, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Support''' Per Omega and Anon. ''[[User:JamesHeart123|<font color="blue">James</font>]][[User talk:JamesHeart123|<font color="orange">Heart</font>]][[Special:Contributions/JamesHeart123|<font color="black">less</font>]]'' 20:25, 1 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
'''Strong support''' I can't even amagine how big the page will be when the nerfs in SSB4 are discussed in the page, which is already big. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 15:53, 14 September 2012 (EDT) | |||
== Ultimate Section Edits == | |||
I have edited the Ultimate section to be more neutral in tone and less verbose generally. I'm unsure if the Cleanup section is still needed or not, but I hope this edit is in the right direction. --[[User:Pacack|Pacack]] ([[User talk:Pacack|talk]]) 15:59, October 29, 2019 (EDT) | |||