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SmashWiki talk:Edit summaries: Difference between revisions
→Comments: Objections to failing this under grounds of no consensus, speak now.
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#<s>'''Strong support'''. Per Serpent and Nyargle. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: brown;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:brown;">'''The Thankful Evil Clone'''</span>]] 20:09, 22 November 2015 (EST) | #<s>'''Strong support'''. Per Serpent and Nyargle. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: brown;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:brown;">'''The Thankful Evil Clone'''</span>]] 20:09, 22 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#:By the way, I '''strongly oppose''' this becoming a policy. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: brown;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:brown;">'''The Thankful Evil Clone'''</span>]] 06:30, 26 November 2015 (EST)</s> | #:By the way, I '''strongly oppose''' this becoming a policy. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: brown;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:brown;">'''The Thankful Evil Clone'''</span>]] 06:30, 26 November 2015 (EST)</s> | ||
#:I switch from an '''oppose''' to a '''moderate support''' whatever it becomes. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:green;">'''The Festive Evil Clone'''</span>]] 23:07, 28 November 2015 (EST) | |||
#'''Weak support''': (Am I actually allowed to support both...?) I'd prefer it as a policy, but I'm also fine with it as a guideline. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="brown">a turkey</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 16:45, 23 November 2015 (EST) | #'''Weak support''': (Am I actually allowed to support both...?) I'd prefer it as a policy, but I'm also fine with it as a guideline. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="brown">a turkey</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 16:45, 23 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#<s>'''Support''' as guideline as per errone above. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|Smashedpotatoes]] ([[User talk:Smashedpotatoes|talk]]) 19:07, 25 November 2015 (EST)</s> | #<s>'''Support''' as guideline as per errone above. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|Smashedpotatoes]] ([[User talk:Smashedpotatoes|talk]]) 19:07, 25 November 2015 (EST)</s> | ||
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#:If you can't supply a reason, why are you voting...? <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="brown">a turkey</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 19:28, 26 November 2015 (EST) | #:If you can't supply a reason, why are you voting...? <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="brown">a turkey</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 19:28, 26 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' I can't really say anything on the matter, as all of the valid points have already been stated and would be redundant if I repeated them... [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 01:05, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #'''Support''' I can't really say anything on the matter, as all of the valid points have already been stated and would be redundant if I repeated them... [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 01:05, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#'''Support''' what disaster flare said [[User:Nintendofan1653|Nintendofan1653]] ([[User talk:Nintendofan1653|talk]]) 17:56, 30 November 2015 (EST) | |||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#'''Oppose''' on the basis that [[Help:Edit summary]] already exists. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Steppin' 09:25, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #'''Oppose''' on the basis that [[Help:Edit summary]] already exists. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Steppin' 09:25, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#'''Oppose''' per Toomai. {{User:Nyargleblargle/Sig}} 09:56, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #'''Oppose''' per Toomai. {{User:Nyargleblargle/Sig}} 09:56, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#'''weak oppose''' i just remembered [[Help:Edit summary]] existed [[User:Nintendofan1653|Nintendofan1653]] ([[User talk:Nintendofan1653|talk]]) 10:33, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #<s>'''weak oppose''' i just remembered [[Help:Edit summary]] existed [[User:Nintendofan1653|Nintendofan1653]] ([[User talk:Nintendofan1653|talk]]) 10:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)<\s> | ||
#'''Weak Oppose''' upon realization per Toomai, NyBlargle, and Nintendofan. I'm sorry.... [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:green;">'''The Festive Evil Clone'''</span>]] 11:16, 28 November 2015 (EST) | <s>#'''Weak Oppose''' upon realization per Toomai, NyBlargle, and Nintendofan. I'm sorry.... [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:green;">'''The Festive Evil Clone'''</span>]] 11:16, 28 November 2015 (EST)</s> | ||
#<s>'''Oppose''' upon realization that there is a help page about edit summaries, rendering this unnecessary. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:27, 28 November 2015 (EST)</s> | #<s>'''Oppose''' upon realization that there is a help page about edit summaries, rendering this unnecessary. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:27, 28 November 2015 (EST)</s> | ||
#:I do '''Support''' a merge of this proposal and the help page though. (This proposal would merge into Help:Edit summaries.) [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:31, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #:I do '''Support''' a merge of this proposal and the help page though. (This proposal would merge into Help:Edit summaries.) [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:31, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#::I don't think this really works as a help page... I think it would be better to merge the help page into the policy/guideline. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="red">SANTY</font> <font color="green">CLAWS</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 12:33, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #::I don't think this really works as a help page... I think it would be better to merge the help page into the policy/guideline. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="red">SANTY</font> <font color="green">CLAWS</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 12:33, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
#:::Upon realization, I'm now re-supporting as a guideline. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:44, 28 November 2015 (EST) | #:::Upon realization, I'm now re-supporting as a guideline. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:44, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
===Neutral=== | ===Neutral=== | ||
#'''Eh.''' Edit summaries are to be encouraged, definitely, but the response to someone forgetting to use one shouldn't be anything more than a "hey, you probably should use these". It wouldn't hurt as a guideline, but I'm not convinced it's specifically needed either. Either way, this isn't anything worth trying to strictly enforce. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:14, 22 November 2015 (EST) | #'''Eh.''' Edit summaries are to be encouraged, definitely, but the response to someone forgetting to use one shouldn't be anything more than a "hey, you probably should use these". It wouldn't hurt as a guideline, but I'm not convinced it's specifically needed either. Either way, this isn't anything worth trying to strictly enforce. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:14, 22 November 2015 (EST) | ||
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# '''Neutral.''' I personally feel that [[Help:Edit summary]] is sufficient and pretty much covers everything you need to know when adding edit summaries. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 16:55, 27 November 2015 (EST) | # '''Neutral.''' I personally feel that [[Help:Edit summary]] is sufficient and pretty much covers everything you need to know when adding edit summaries. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 16:55, 27 November 2015 (EST) | ||
# '''Neutral'''. I think that while there is the [[Help:Edit summary]] page, upon further comparison and analyzation of the content there and what is proposed here, I think that perhaps it is not as sufficient as it could be. Couple this with how that page is a Help page, which provides little reason for users to read it due to the oh so simple nature of writing Summaries in general. Policies and Guidelines do provide more reason for reading, as they are enforcement and strong suggestions, correspondingly. I know that content written in summaries, as well as the lack thereof, has been the spawn of some issues here, many of them being my fault, and perhaps if one or both of my eyes had caught a Guideline written about Summaries at the very bottom of the page, those could have been avoided, or perhaps not. Or, I could have just chosen to be wiser and more effective in communicating what I had changed in the pages I edited. Either way, and regardless of my personal and feelings and speculative thoughts, this a very minor thing to be dealing with, and people are responsible for how they write, fail to write, or respond to Edit Summaries. Therefore, this doesn't seem to be especially necessary. I would be '''mildly fine''' with it either being a '''Guideline''' or not existing at all, but definitely ''not'' a policy. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:maroon;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px orange">'''Smashedpotatoes'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:cerulean;text-shadow: 1px 1px 3px cyan">'''(Talk)'''</span>]] 22:47, 27 November 2015 (EST) | # '''Neutral'''. I think that while there is the [[Help:Edit summary]] page, upon further comparison and analyzation of the content there and what is proposed here, I think that perhaps it is not as sufficient as it could be. Couple this with how that page is a Help page, which provides little reason for users to read it due to the oh so simple nature of writing Summaries in general. Policies and Guidelines do provide more reason for reading, as they are enforcement and strong suggestions, correspondingly. I know that content written in summaries, as well as the lack thereof, has been the spawn of some issues here, many of them being my fault, and perhaps if one or both of my eyes had caught a Guideline written about Summaries at the very bottom of the page, those could have been avoided, or perhaps not. Or, I could have just chosen to be wiser and more effective in communicating what I had changed in the pages I edited. Either way, and regardless of my personal and feelings and speculative thoughts, this a very minor thing to be dealing with, and people are responsible for how they write, fail to write, or respond to Edit Summaries. Therefore, this doesn't seem to be especially necessary. I would be '''mildly fine''' with it either being a '''Guideline''' or not existing at all, but definitely ''not'' a policy. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:maroon;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px orange">'''Smashedpotatoes'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:cerulean;text-shadow: 1px 1px 3px cyan">'''(Talk)'''</span>]] 22:47, 27 November 2015 (EST) | ||
# '''Neutral'''. I just don't see this as being necessary for pretty much ANY reason, and have never seen any problems with edit summaries (although I'm pretty inactive.) If it was a policy, the if someone didn't do it, more fights might be induced (but maybe not). I just don't feel very strong either way, and most people will read [[Help:Edit summary]] if they edit often...[[User:AmoongussForLife|AmoongussForLife]] ([[User talk:AmoongussForLife|talk]]) 17:45, 30 November 2015 (EST) | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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:::Yeah consensus is the way to go, keeping it going is not the same as passing it. This has aroused a lot of input, but unfortunately it has not elicited especially strong responses. In addition, the votes are pretty even all around. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:maroon;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px orange">'''Smashedpotatoes'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:cerulean;text-shadow: 1px 1px 3px cyan">'''(Talk)'''</span>]] 22:07, 28 November 2015 (EST) | :::Yeah consensus is the way to go, keeping it going is not the same as passing it. This has aroused a lot of input, but unfortunately it has not elicited especially strong responses. In addition, the votes are pretty even all around. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:maroon;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px orange">'''Smashedpotatoes'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:cerulean;text-shadow: 1px 1px 3px cyan">'''(Talk)'''</span>]] 22:07, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
::::@Nutta No, there is no consensus here, other than that most seem not to want this as a policy. Votes are very split between guideline and opposing this all-together. Can you explain what this would cover as a guideline that the help page wouldn't? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:10, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ::::@Nutta No, there is no consensus here, other than that most seem not to want this as a policy. Votes are very split between guideline and opposing this all-together. Can you explain what this would cover as a guideline that the help page wouldn't? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:10, 28 November 2015 (EST) | ||
:::::Well, my point is that if you don't feel good about passing it because of the amount of opposition obviously the opposition is enough for it to not be passworthy, but whatever. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="red">SANTY</font> <font color="green">CLAWS</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 22:24, 28 November 2015 (EST) | |||
I'm going to go ahead and explain why it would be better as a policy too because HOPE! (rainbows, angel chorus, and adorable puppies behind me) ...Did that help convince you at all? No? Okay. | |||
What the help page covers (a summary): What an edit summary is. It is the absolute simplest explanation you can get: it's a box where you put the summary of your edit. (duh.) While it has a usage section, it is merely four undetailed bullet points that cover very little- edit summaries aren't necessary for grammar/typoes, edit summaries should be used for sourcing, edit summaries should be used to explain massive rewrites, and edit summaries should be used when a section is removed. It also mentions automatic edit summaries (for redirects and new pages), and the explanation for the weird "/* SECTIONTITLE */" thing. | |||
What the guideline would cover (a summary): Honestly, a guideline would probably be an expansion of the help page. However, there is a large difference between a help page and a guideline page- while a help page is intended for advice when needed, guideline pages are, well, guidelines that users should follow. Unless you are confused about edit summaries, you likely would not go to Help:Edit summary, and therefore would not follow its dos and don'ts. Furthermore, it's not particularly enforceable. Guidelines, on the other hand, are where most users will go if they actually want to understand the function of the wiki. Therefore, they will be more likely to know about the dos and don'ts, and therefore follow them. And if they don't, it's much more enforceable because help pages tend to be suggestions, while guidelines are more specifically "what you should do". | |||
What the policy would cover (a summary): A policy would then be an expansion of the guideline (not content-wise, but usage-wise). Even more than guidelines, a user is likely to read the policies of the wiki (I know I did, albeit only the absolute most important ones in my mind and even that was skimming, but I never stopped by the help or guideline pages at all), and it would be completely enforceable. Actually, a good example happened today: An IP readded something that Jamal had changed and explained in an edit summary prior. Clearly, the IP, who [[SW:AGF|appeared to be good faith]], did not bother to read the help page and therefore did not know to check the edit summary. (That's about as strict to AGF as you can get, but whatever.) The result? An edit that should have been unnecessary and could have been prevented if there was a policy Jamal could have thrown at the IP, or that the IP could have read in the first place. Even if the IP hadn't read it, if Jamal had been able to supply a policy he had broken, the IP would be much more likely to pay more attention next time, and such a situation would not happen again with said IP (again, sticking to AGF.) | |||
...Idk I feel kind of stupid now but I'm going to hit save page anyway. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="red">SANTY</font> <font color="green">CLAWS</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 22:24, 28 November 2015 (EST) | |||
:Sensible, not especially strong, but sensible. This is a case of someone not paying attention to an edit summary? I mean, it's pretty straightforward, it's right there in your face if you're gonna undo something. Unless I'm missing something here... [[User:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:maroon;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px orange">'''Smashedpotatoes'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Smashedpotatoes|<span style="color:cerulean;text-shadow: 1px 1px 3px cyan">'''(Talk)'''</span>]] 22:37, 28 November 2015 (EST) | |||
::Please understand that as it stands now, I cannot pass this as a policy. There simply isn't enough support. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:52, 28 November 2015 (EST) | |||
:::Well, duh. The goal of that was to get more support so that it can stand differently later. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|<font color="red">SANTY</font> <font color="green">CLAWS</font>]]! Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 20:51, 29 November 2015 (EST) | |||
How about merging these two pages? [[User:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Gold">'''Drill Blaster'''</span> <span style="color:LightBlue">'''Mark'''</span> <span style="color:Crimson">'''2'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Grey">(talk)</span>]]'' 06:07, 29 November 2015 (EST) | |||
:I have [[User:Serpent King/Sandbox/Help:Edit summary rewrite|drafted the new help page]] for if this proposal fails. If it passes, the help page should be deleted. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 19:33, 29 November 2015 (EST) | |||
This proposal does not look like as if it is gonna pass anytime soon, with 4 Supporting for policy, 7 supporting for guideline, 4 opposing, and 6 neutral. [[file:INoMedssig.png|20px]] <font face="cursive">[[User:INoMed|<font color="red">'''INoMed'''</font>]] <sup>'''''[[User talk:INoMed|<font color="red">(Talk • </font>]] [[User:INoMed/Contribs|<font color="red">Contribs)</font>]]'''''</sup></font> 12:03, 30 November 2015 (EST) | |||
I'm not really sure how to handle this vote thus far. There's no strong consensus in one specific direction, and while the majority does support it, I'd say it's not a supermajority, especially considering that how to implement the policy is fairly split amongst that group. I'm considering failing the policy due to a lack of consensus, but it can't hurt to get more votes with the decision this close. {{User:Nyargleblargle/Sig}} 17:49, 1 December 2015 (EST) | |||
:Welcome to my headache, Nyargle. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 17:52, 1 December 2015 (EST) | |||
::Alright, so I think I am going to fail this as lack of consensus either way. If there are any objections, let them speak now. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:45, 2 December 2015 (EST) | |||