User talk:CaioNintendo

Majors

Hi, do not add, nor remove, any tournaments from the majors/supermajors lists (and their respective categories) without prior discussion agreeing with it. Omega Tyrant 19:41, July 14, 2023 (EDT)

Why were they reversed? The tournaments I added have always been unanimously considered majors. They have always been majors according to this wiki (until the recent layout change on the majors list page), and are also considered as such by liquipedia. Every list of “players who have won melee majors” out there includes Captain Jack and KDJ. I ask you to reconsider.

Also, why did you revert the jp flag for aMSa? He is a Japanese player. Doesn’t make much sense to use a Canadian flag just because he is currently living there. CaioNintendo (talk) 00:00, July 15, 2023 (EDT)

SmashWiki is not obligated to follow what Liquipedia says nor those "players who won Melee majors" lists, and I would say they should seriously reevaluate these tournaments too instead of saying they're majors just because. It was brought up in our Discord server how MLG San Francisco 2004 and MLG Long Island 2007 are severely below the standards of other major tournaments even during their respective times, and the discussion agreed with it. First entrant wise, there are only 50 entrants for San Fran 04 (next lowest in 04 is 85 from Game Over), and 71 for Long Island 07 (next lowest in 07 is 112 at Cataclysm 3), being a clear big dropoff from the standards of a major in their respective eras. Second skill depth wise, the former's lack of skill depth is not only demonstrated by its lack of proper documentation of particularly great players after the trio of Jack/Isai/Ken, but also the fact that players like Jem placed fourth and Germ got into top 6 with Link, neither of which were placements they ever came close to replicating at legitimate majors. With Long Island 07, only five of that year's top 20 (according to RetroSSBMRank) were in attendance, with this lack of skill depth being painfully demonstrated by a DK placing 4th, two Bowsers in the top 16, two red linked players in the top 16 (both of which whose only tournament link on this wiki is from that page), and the obvious big dropoff in player talent after the top 6. A tournament simply having a few top players in attendance doesn't make it a major, otherwise there are plenty of Tristate Brawl locals we would have to start calling majors.

As for aMSa, we flag players by their country of permanent residence at the time of the tournament, not by their birth country nor by citizenship (or will dual-flag in cases of long-term dual residencies like players going to college/university abroad). This is much more representative of the Smash scene that they're actually repping, and by sticking to birth country or citizenship, you would get absurd things like listing Hungrybox with the Argentine flag, despite the fact he hasn't lived there since he was a young child and has spent his entire Smash career residing in the United States. Omega Tyrant 00:57, July 15, 2023 (EDT)

I never said you were obligated by anything, just that it’s weird to retcon tournaments that have always been unanimously considered to be majors. In 2004 there were 4 players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the world. Suddenly deciding, 20 years later, that a MLG tournament, in the golden era of the MLG, that featured 3 of those 4 players, is not a major just because it lacks documentation (we don’t even know if there were only 50 attendants) seems very wrong. MLG Long Island is also a MLG in the hight of MLG, and featured 5 of the absolute top tier players of that year. It has always been regarded as a major, see the Smash doc. Also seems wrong to retcon it.

But whatever, if you guys decided it over discord, what can I do…

About the country flag, I insist that it makes no sense to not count aMSa as japanese. Hbox’s comparison makes no sense, because Juan was raised in the US and is actually an American citizen CaioNintendo (talk) 11:29, July 15, 2023 (EDT)

"just that it’s weird to retcon tournaments that have always been unanimously considered to be majors."

None of these classifications are official, there is no "retconning", nor is changing stances on things an inherently bad thing. You can keep saying they were considered "unanimously" so, that doesn't change the fact that they don't hold up to real scrutiny rather than calling them majors just because people assumed it.

"is not a major just because it lacks documentation (we don’t even know if there were only 50 attendants) seems very wrong"

Saying a tournament is a major that doesn't have the documentation to prove it is what I would say is "very wrong" here, the onus of proof here is on the results to provide sufficient evidence.

"In 2004 there were 4 players that were head and shoulders above the rest of the world."

"MLG Long Island is also a MLG in the hight of MLG, and featured 5 of the absolute top tier players of that year.

Like I said before, if you're setting your standards for a major to just be "has a few top 10 players in attendance, entrants and skill depth does not matter", then there are lots of Tristate Brawl locals that we would have to start calling majors. Clearly you can see how ridiculous that would be, and you cannot ignore how said critical lack of skill depth at these two tournaments led to anomalous results both player and character-wise that were never close to replicated at legitimate majors. Also a tournament's branding does not automatically grant major status, and there are plenty of other MLG events that we do not consider majors.

"About the country flag, I insist that it makes no sense to not count aMSa as japanese. Hbox’s comparison makes no sense, because Juan was raised in the US and is actually an American citizen"

Hungrybox didn't become an American citizen until 2017, over a decade into his Smash career. Setting the line at citizenship would mean labelling him with the Argentine flag in every tournament up until August 2017, which you seem to recognize would be absurd, as would about anyone else reasonable. So the best line to set it at would be the player's country of permanent residence as said before, as consensus on the wiki has agreed with, and aMSa has immigrated to Canada, with no indication that it's a short temporary stay, thus he is now a representative of the Canadian Smash scene. If you can present evidence of aMSa stating that he is in Canada on a temporary visa and is going back to Japan soon, we can reconsider how to flag him. Also indent your responses to show you're directly replying to someone on a talk page, I have indented your responses for you this time. Omega Tyrant 12:22, July 15, 2023 (EDT)