SmashWiki talk:Edit summaries

I feel like the possibility of including an edit summary is often ignored, when it could easily help prevent unnecessary arguments are edit wars by providing a quick explanation as to why the edit was made.

Discuss. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 22:07, 26 August 2015 (EDT)

Possibly add to "When creating a new page" that edit summaries should not be necessary for creating redirects? (as the system does it for you) Serpent King (talk) 22:10, 26 August 2015 (EDT)

Oh also, possibly add a section on reading edit summaries before one acts? That's been a problem lately. Serpent King (talk) 22:17, 26 August 2015 (EDT)

Still more: Always summary when removing content from a talk page (archiving, formatting fix, spam talk page, personal info, etc) Serpent King (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2015 (EDT)

Hm yes that all seems important. I guess I add them now? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 13:56, 27 August 2015 (EDT)

...okay, so I reiterate: Discuss. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 20:50, 29 August 2015 (EDT)

Hello? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 21:14, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

Support - It seems a tad rigid, but it would help enforce a feature that makes reviewing edits much easier and standardizes things a bit. Nyargleblargle (Talk) 13:08, 31 August 2015 (EDT)

...bump. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 20:28, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

Support However, I suggest that the "situations where edit summaries are unnecessary" be removed, as I feel that an editor adding a summary for those situations would be perfectly fine. Awesome Cardinal 2000 23:06, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

I mainly included it to keep people from going "HEY YOU DIDN'T ADD AN EDIT SUMMARY!" when it's unnecessary. I attempted to word it in a way that made it clear that edit summaries are always appreciated, but one isn't required in this scenario. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 08:08, 14 September 2015 (EDT)

Anyone else? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 10:16, 16 September 2015 (EDT)

...bump ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 11:45, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

Bump? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 00:20, 3 October 2015 (EDT)

Still in Support for what it matters. Serpent∞King (talk) 00:28, 3 October 2015 (EDT)

...so... does it usually take this long? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 00:04, 22 October 2015 (EDT)

Needs more input. I'll start by saying I've changed my position to weak oppose; I'm not really sure that edit summaries are the kinds of things that need policies. Nyargleblargle Let's go Mets! (Talk · Contribs) 16:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

What if this were a guideline instead? Serpent∞King (talk) 16:18, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I would still be a bit meh on it, but I probably wouldn't oppose. Nyargleblargle Let's go Mets! (Talk · Contribs) 16:20, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Bump, also support. However, if it becomes a guideline rather than a policy, then my vote would probably be a strong support. Ganonmew, The Thankful Evil Clone 22:05, 6 November 2015 (EST)

BUMP Ganonmew, The Thankful Evil Clone 10:13, 15 November 2015 (EST)

Oppose, leaning towards neutral On one hand, this can be really useful for newer users who don't quite know how edit summaries work, but at the same time, it's so obvious how one works that I also feel like this shouldn't be an official policy. At the same time too, it's also useful for some more experienced users as well, ones who may not necessarily have a clear indication on what they should put in it. It could really help with people who are making edits that need to have edit summaries, but the question that needs to be asked is, "Exactly how many people don't use edit summaries when they actually should be?" Long story short, it's helpful, but is it really necessary? Disaster Flare (talk) 00:47, 16 November 2015 (EST)

Strong Support: As is the case with the Username policy, we pretty much enforce this already, so having it set in stone isn't a bad idea at all. I also don't see any flaws with the current version, so...yeah. --MeatBall104 16:34, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Support: The policy seems useful, and it may help to minimize trivia-changing arguments as well as add clarifications in cases where large portions of pages are changed. Fenyx4 (talk) 21:29, 17 November 2015 (EST)

Definitely support. While summaries don't have to be mandatory, they are still very helpful in order to understand what happened in the page. Drill Blaster Mark 2 (talk) 08:45, 22 November 2015 (EST)

A couple comments:

• When creating a new page: this feels kind of unnecessary, as most new mainspace pages are likely to be immediately recognized as useful or not per SW:CREATE.
• When adding a template such as Template:Image or Template:D: redundant with the content of the templates themselves, like this proposed policy already notes. If anything I'd recommend noting in the summary that the template has been added (especially for d/delete), to make the need for attention more evident when browsing RecentChanges.

-Menshay (talk) 17:00, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Let's do this proper.

Support as a policy

1. Strong support: I made it, so why wouldn't I support it? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 16:45, 23 November 2015 (EST)
2. Support: I have always found edits on this wiki, or at least the parts I frequent, to be lacking in summaries. A policy might help change this. —Fenhl 22:56, 25 November 2015 (EST)
3. Support I find a lot of people remove content without any explanation. How do we know why it's removed. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is made in America 23:02, 25 November 2015 (EST)

   Click "diff" or "prev," look at the changes, reason with what you see and what you know, and make guesses and/or inferences, and inquire if needed. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 23:29, 25 November 2015 (EST)

   Yes I do click on those links and found that a few people removed content without leaving a summary. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 00:05, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   The point in clicking those links are to see the content changed in the edit. Once you see them, you can analyze them and reason through as to why those changes were made. Unless you're not good at that or don't do that altogether, in which case you should try doing that. But if you do do that, then I don't see why you'd want to push for a policy such as this. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   If you find the removal of content unreasonable, I can understand the frustration. But you gotta think through it first before coming to that conclusion. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 00:13, 26 November 2015 (EST)

4. Support: I feel that this is more in a policy format. Awesomelink234 PK FLASHBOMB! 09:35, 26 November 2015 (EST)

Support as a guideline

1. Guideline: Here's why. Even I sometimes omit edit summaries if I am mass editing a ton of pages at once, and as such, I think this should be only a guideline. There really is no reason for us to actually go to someone's talk page about not leaving edit summaries, thus dis-validating the need for a policy. However, it could be useful for people to have an idea on when an edit summary could be appropriate. Serpent King 19:26, 22 November 2015 (EST)
2. Weak support as a guideline per Serpent King. Omission of an edit summary should not be a policy violation, but it should be frowned upon. Nyargleblargle (Talk | Contribs) 19:32, 22 November 2015 (EST)
3. Strong support. Per Serpent and Nyargle. Ganonmew, The Thankful Evil Clone 20:09, 22 November 2015 (EST)

   By the way, I strongly oppose this becoming a policy. Ganonmew, The Thankful Evil Clone 06:30, 26 November 2015 (EST)

4. Weak support: (Am I actually allowed to support both...?) I'd prefer it as a policy, but I'm also fine with it as a guideline. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 16:45, 23 November 2015 (EST)
5. Support as guideline as per errone above. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 19:07, 25 November 2015 (EST)
6. Strong support As I said before, edit summaries are overall very helpful, but cannot be mandatory for reasons mentioned by SK. Drill Blaster Mark 2 (talk) 05:15, 26 November 2015 (EST)
7. Strong support. A policy on edit summaries sounds pretty silly, as who would want to get hated on all because they fixed a normal typo without an edit summary, or maybe their edit was to add the D tag on a page... See? Policies. On. Edit. Summaries. Don't. Work. But... Guidelines do work IMHO. INoMed ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 05:38, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   note the fact that it specifically says typo/grammar fixing doesn't require an edit summary :P ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:32, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   I added another example to my support. INoMed ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 09:38, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   That's... not better. SmashWiki Status System requires edit summaries. Your change will be undone if you don't include one. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:40, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   I changed it. INoMed ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 09:41, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Which is listed as recommended, but not necessary. So they would not get in trouble if they didn't include it (unless someone just wanted to be picky). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:43, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   We had to go through all this all because I used reasons of which an edit summary 1. Is unneeded. 2. Is required. 3. Is optional, but not required. All I was trying to say is that I like this proposal, but I feel as if a policy just doesn't cut it. INoMed ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 09:46, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Well I was just pointing out that all of your reasons for why was false. Obviously I can't change your opinion, but since we're sort of on opposite sides here if I can make my reasoning seem more sound than yours that benefits me :P ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:50, 26 November 2015 (EST)

8. Support as a guideline. That's all I can say. Pika, Wild Turkey Appeared! 17:27, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   If you can't supply a reason, why are you voting...? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 19:28, 26 November 2015 (EST)

Oppose

1. I oppose this altogether. Let people be responsible for their own summaries, and their own analyzation of other people's edits. Don't want to put a summary? Alright. Don't see a summary? Look at the changes made. It's not even difficult, it's literally a click away, requiring minimal time, energy, and common sense on everyone's part. We don't need a policy or guideline for this. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 00:07, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   If that were true, why do you think I would make it? A lack of edit summaries or poor usage of edit summaries has created more conflict than I can count. I'm simply trying to put an end to it. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:32, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Could you possibly link me to some instances of this happening? Just to get an idea. I know I've failed to give good edit summaries and gotten negative responses but that was me not being wise with it. But I want to see other examples of this creating conflict. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 14:08, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Also, doesn't Help:Edit summary suffice? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 16:09, 27 November 2015 (EST)

   Kinda having trouble supporting this in any capacity if there's that serving the same purpose. Maybe material proposed here could be added there. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 16:26, 27 November 2015 (EST)

   I think that's actually a fair point. I can definitely say that I do not want to go to talk pages, berating those who don't edit summary... as a guideline, I wouldn't have to do that, but if there's already a help page (to be honest, I forgot about that) serving the same purpose, then maybe that just needs amended. Serpent King 16:48, 27 November 2015 (EST)

   Yeah. However, it's not like it appearing as a Help page provides much incentive to read it. Case in point, you've been here awhile and you're an Admin now and even you forgot about it. If it were to appear as a Policy or Guideline, it would give more incentive to read into, because those are things that are enforced and strongly suggested, respectively. You read Help pages primarily if you need help. I could be wrong, but I hardly think a lot of users are like "How do I summarize what I changed?" Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:41, 27 November 2015 (EST)

Neutral

1. Eh. Edit summaries are to be encouraged, definitely, but the response to someone forgetting to use one shouldn't be anything more than a "hey, you probably should use these". It wouldn't hurt as a guideline, but I'm not convinced it's specifically needed either. Either way, this isn't anything worth trying to strictly enforce. Miles (talk) 20:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
2. Resounding "meh" I dunno really. It's nice to have written rules instead of unwritten ones, but even if we call this a guideline (which it would be), it feels...almost toe-stepping actually. Regardless, the extra capped "S" in the title has to go. Toomai Glittershine The Aurum 23:42, 25 November 2015 (EST)

   True, that's a point, I kinda get that feeling too. Besides that, must we explain ourselves with every thing we do? People can reason through things themselves. If people are gonna choose irrational, unfounded responses over analyzing edits themselves, then dat's on dem. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 23:52, 25 November 2015 (EST)

   On the other hand, we gotta take into account that not one person has completely sound reasoning, some more or less than others. An edit summary would help with avoiding conflict. But then again...if the person editing REALLY cared about his or her edits being understood, and/or know that it's prone to being undone or changed by certain people, and then they'd likely put a summary. And if not...dat's on dem. Smashedpotatoes (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2015 (EST)

   Yeahhhh... I wasn't really paying attention to the formatting of other titles when I named it and just never felt like moving it.

   Should I do that now, or wait until we've decided? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 09:32, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Now's good. Serpent King 19:01, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   Done. —Fenhl 19:10, 26 November 2015 (EST)

3. This is pretty neat but no, not as a policy, but its better as a guideline. This policy/guideline is probably something minor however. Dots (talk) The Falcon 10:49, 26 November 2015 (EST)

   ...This sounds more like a support for guideline than a neutral. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 11:37, 26 November 2015 (EST)

4. neutral leaning to support this is a great idea but it has its flaws Nintendofan1653 (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2015 (EST)
5. Neutral. I personally feel that Help:Edit summary is sufficient and pretty much covers everything you need to know when adding edit summaries. John PK SMAAAASH!! 16:55, 27 November 2015 (EST)

Comments

Bumping this, I want this resolved soon Serpent King 19:02, 25 November 2015 (EST)

Just a note: I am leaning towards passing this as a guideline at the moment, but I'll let it run for a few more days to see what happens. Serpent King 12:28, 27 November 2015 (EST)

The main reason no one wants it as a policy is because they themselves don't want to have to use it (at least, that's what it strongly feels like to me- your reason was that you didn't want to have to make them in mass edits (Idk if I'm allowed to amend now that voting has started, but it would probably be worth considering that if several of the same edits are being made, only the first requires an edit summary) and most of the others were just "per sk"; Smashed's reason for opposing is that he wants to be responsible for his own summaries, even though his summaries have actually been the cause of several problems). If it's passed as a guideline, nothing's going to change. A policy will actually fix it, because if people don't listen they can actually get in trouble if they don't.

Also, there's the fact that there's already, effectively, a guideline, which clearly people don't care about because otherwise the problem wouldn't have risen. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:12, 27 November 2015 (EST)

Yeah, it appearing as a Help page provides less incentive to read it than it appearing as a Guideline or Policy. But, I don't see a problem with looking at specific edits to spot out changes and work through it yourself. Must we rely on summaries like this? Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:19, 27 November 2015 (EST)

Also note that edit wars and conflicts happen despite having put sufficient edit summaries. And sometimes, people don't reason through things. So, having it as a policy won't change those who are stubborn/lazy/unwilling to negotiate. Smashedpotatoes (Talk) 17:32, 27 November 2015 (EST)