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A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally

I noticed that Toomai said that he was not entirely happy with the decision that only Ultimate’s general music and spirits pages for minor universes received the ellipsis. I agree, mostly because it makes no sense that a page represented by an ellipsis would link to pages with the special stages symbol. I do have a compromise that hopefully isn’t parroting previous points. Serpent King, Aidan, and Miles, please read this before automatically assuming that I’m a relentless lunatic.

• If the series of either the mii costume, item, or AT has either music or a spirit that is in the “other” category, then their page will be given the ellipsis.
  • Addtionally, even if the mii costume or item is completely unrepresented in Ultimate, if another character or item from the same series is still in Ultimate as a spirit, or music from their series is listed under “other” in Ultimate, they will also be given the ellipsis by extension. This refers specifically to the Virtua Fighter and Monster Hunter costumes.

• If the item or mii costume (all past AT’s are at least spirits already) are completely absent in Ultimate, or their respective series is not represented in any way, shape or form, they will continue using the special stages symbol. For example, the Rareware items will continue using the special stages symbol.

• Minor namco universes are a bit goofy. With the exception of Tekken, all of them have music represented by PAC-MAN instead of “others”. On the other hand, both the Boss galaga and Special Flag are listed under “others” for spirits. As only Galaga has a full song instead of a medley considered to be a PAC-MAN song, Boss Galaga receives the PAC-MAN symbol. The Special Flag will be given an ellipsis, due to only having a medley represented with music. Heihachi and Gil are part of Pac-Man’a roulette taunt, so I honestly don’t knoe where to put them. However, Lloyd is completely unrepresented in Ultimate, and thus will stay using the special stages symbol.

So, the following pages will still 100% use the special stages symbol: Battlefield (SSBM), Cloaking Device, and Lloyd Irving. Heihachi and Gil may still use the special stages symbol, but they could also use the ellipsis if the minor cameo is considered enough to give it to them.

Is this good? No discussion is not closed if people aren’t satisfied. Lou Cena (talk) 11:57, 13 February 2019 (EST)

Well, if we won't let this go because we're seeing too many flaws in overusing the Battlefield logo and now Toomai is having doubts about his decision, I think we should be using the ellipsis. I like how your compromise would make most of the minor universes get the ellipsis. The special stages symbol for the few others: not so much. But if it leads to stuff using the correct symbol, and a later dispute would get rid of the SpecialStages symbol from pages that are not referencing Melee's Battlefield, then it's fine with me. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:37, 13 February 2019 (EST)

The next person to add another comment to this closed discussion is being blocked for disruption. Toomai Glittershine The Riotous 19:26, 13 February 2019 (EST)

So I came in late on this. Can I get a summary on what happened here? I've gathered the discussion has been forced closed, but over a month has passed and I was kind of wondering why we weren't switching the symbol myself, though I was unaware that this had all gone down. VinLAURiA (talk) 06:19, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

Summary: Some people wanted to change the "default use everywhere" symbol to SSBU's three-dots icon. Other people argued that such icon is inappropriate. The discussion grew very large, primarily (but not completely) divided with newer users on the "change" side and experienced users on the "stay" side. {In my opinion, the "change" side rehashed their few arguments repeatedly, while the "stay" side did a better job at countering them and bringing in new ones.} The staff team decided that the discussion had become unproductive and closed it. Toomai Glittershine Da Bomb 06:46, March 20, 2019 (EDT)

I’ve actually had some counterpoints to several of the points that were made on the archive for a good month now (to the point where I changed the template “other” to “specialstages” on several pre-ultimate related content, such as Heihachi and Pooka), though I didn’t want to bring it up due to not wanting to cause another disruption. Additionally, with the influx of new users in this (Sniffoy of the mainspace discussion and Vin on this page), it may be a good time to reopen discussion on a topic that many were unsatisfied about. To solve the repetition of the same argument, all of the main arguements of the prior discussion should be stated on the top of the page, followed by a suggestion to not use these again. Lou Cena (talk) 00:48, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

Please don't try to run any discussions if you still think things like "arguements of the prior discussion should be stated on the top of the page, followed by a suggestion to not use these again" are an okay thing to do. Toomai Glittershine The Free 06:51, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

Alright, I won’t add that then. If you really don’t trust me, I’ll stay out of this one for the most part, and mainly leave it up to another group of users if they feel like it should be changed. While I’m aware that I was disruptive and am likely not trusted around this subject, I do think that the users who joined in on the discussion after it was declared closed (such as VinLAURiA) should probably be given a chance to debate on this. Lou Cena (talk) 19:17, March 28, 2019 (EDT)

It is difficult to think of new points that haven't been stated before, and some people might not have time to read the whole archived discussion, so I think if people want to add to previous points, I think they should. But the anti-ellipsis side was worried about formatting issues (which are nonexistent because of the way we use symbols), didn't think the three dots looked like a symbol (in their opinion), and didn't want to use the ellipsis for pre-Ultimate content because it wasn't used back then (despite forcing character articles that officially had the ellipsis in Spirit Mode to use the symbol exclusive to one Melee original stage). And I think being officially used for minor universes is the most legitimate reason. Smash Wiki may not be official, but we still prefer to use official symbols. And with only four admins wanting to keep the special stages symbol while everyone else wanting to change to the ellipsis, the consensus should have been the ellipsis. SW:ADMIN says that admins should not settle a dispute to his preference and that they are only as valuable as the other users in a discussion. But anyway, Lou can you state all your new points? SeanWheeler (talk) 19:37, April 2, 2019 (EDT)

We are not opening this up again for discussion right now. SugarCookie 420 19:46, April 2, 2019 (EDT)

Change the placeholder to Wii U Custom Stages

Judging by this talk page, its archive, and the series symbol talk page that SuperSmashTurtles showed me (Thanks for answering my confusion, by the way), I can tell that topics of this caliber were a touchy topic a year ago. However, I want to be abundantly clear: I do not wish to switch to the official ellipsis symbol. After testing the show preview function with the official symbol on desktop mode with my phone, I can't see it when compared to the current one. Also, like the admins said from the other thread, it doesn't fit with the other symbols, and it's used as sparingly as possible. However, I do feel that the current placeholder is the wrong choice, especially when others have expressed similar dissatisfaction long after this discussion was closed.

is the next best replacement without fabricating a question mark symbol (a la Metal Gear's exclamation point) in my opinion. My two biggest gripes with the Melee Battlefield symbol are solved if this becomes the new placeholder.

1.The Melee Battlefield symbol is almost completely indescribable. I don't know what the hell I'm looking at whenever I see it. While the Wii U Custom Stages symbol is also difficult to describe in a simple manner, I can at least say that it's a triangle, a circle, and a square.

2.Look at Battlefield (SSBM). Now look at Akira Yuki's page. They use the exact same symbol, even though one is directly related to the Smash series itself while the other is in a group of minor characters. The inconsistency is very jarring. While yes, the Wii U custom stages symbol is also not an official "other" symbol, it isn't used on any other page except this one

Additionally, the main arguments against using the official symbol do not apply to the Wii U Custom Stages symbol, as it does fit in with the other symbols. 72.203.118.154 00:44, January 13, 2020 (EST)

I don't think so. That custom stages symbol was never used for minor universes either. And the admins insist we use the Battlefield symbol even though the ellipsis makes more sense, was used for minor universes in the game, and had more people supporting it in that discussion. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:35, February 2, 2020 (EST)

It's pretty clear that they won't budge on their opinion on the official one (which does look a little too small on desktop mode on my phone), so I don't want to suggest that. My issue with the current placeholder isn't that it's unofficial, it's that it's used elsewhere. The replacement I'm suggesting is only used on the list of series symbols, while the current placeholder is in the infobox of Battlefield (SSBM), which would cause confusion as to why a smash stage and unaffiliated assist trophies both have the same icon in their infoboxes. I already had that confusion, and I want to prevent that. 72.203.118.154 01:49, February 3, 2020 (EST)

Isn't this symbol also "used elsewhere"? Maybe not on any character or stage page, but certainly the list of series symbols, and it's a lot more prominent in-game than the SSBM Battlefield one is. Part of why the Special Stages symbol was originally picked was because it was so subtle in-game that being "used elsewhere" on-wiki was a lesser concern. Toomai Glittershine The Different 06:43, February 3, 2020 (EST)

When I said that the current placeholder was used elsewhere, I was actually referring to this wiki. Looking at the infoboxes of Battlefield (SSBM) and Isaac, somebody may be confused and think that the symbol is on Battlefield (SSBM) by mistake because it's used on unaffiliated assist trophies, and vice versa. However, you do bring up a good point about the subtleness of the Melee Battlefield symbol in comparison to the Wii U Custom Stages one, so perhaps the random character icon from Brawl would be a better placeholder? While yes, it technically isn't a symbol, the translucent gray texture of the question mark lets it pass off as one. Additionally, one of my other issues with the current placeholder is I don't know what the hell I'm looking at. Replacing it with a recognizable question mark would remove any sort of confusion on what the placeholder is supposed to be or represent, even more so than the original suggestion. 72.203.118.154 16:16, February 3, 2020 (EST)

Could we please just use the ellipsis? That has been officially used in Ultimate for the miscellaneous series. We shouldn't need a placeholder when the game gives us something. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:39, February 16, 2020 (EST)

So I see this discussion hasn't ended altogether. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think any of the symbols used to represent "other" series make sense to use, however the one I lean to the most is to keep the Battlefield symbol. The custom stage was never used to represent anything else besides custom stages so that's my take on that. Here's my problem with the ellipses:

1. The ellipses do not fit with the style of series symbols un any shape or form, and looks really out of place as a result.

2. It's too small.

3. The context it's trying to be used for is incorrect: Ultimate only uses it for the sound test and miscellaneous spirits rather than representing the "other" series as a whole.

4. The only reason people are supporting it is because it's "official", however SmashWiki is not official.

The reason I'm leaning towards the Battlefield symbol is because it still fits with the style of series symbols while still being used so subtly that it wouldn't cause a problem when used for the "other" series. My only issue with Battlefield's is because it's also used to represent Battlefield (SSBM) and so can get mixed-up with the "other" series. OmegαToαd64 02:52, February 16, 2020 (EST)

EDIT:Toomai also mentioned another problem: The ellipses look like a "read more" button, and when clicked on they'll think it'll open another menu, but instead it'll just take them to the file page. So I don't see how the ellipses will not be questioned in the same way as the Battlefield symbol.

You've misunderstood. The reason why people think the ellipsis is better is not that it is official, it's because the meaning of the battlefield symbol is not clear, and that's why people always question the symbol, but the ellipsis can accurately express the meaning of "other".

If you don't think official symbols should be used in this regard, why use the battlefield symbol? An original symbol can be more meaningful than the battlefield symbol, and the battlefield symbol is no more official than the former.Capstalker (talk) 04:29, February 16, 2020 (EST)

We have unofficial symbols for ARMS, Golden Sun, Nintendo, Starfy, Tetris and Wars but only use them for interwiki links. Maybe they should be used more? SeanWheeler (talk) 10:17, February 16, 2020 (EST)

That is a hard no. I do not think we have the right to invent series symbols and present them as equal to the official ones. And it is in this that I personally think using the SSBM Battlefield symbol is clever: because it is official, but only in an extremely minor context that we can reasonably claim fits as the "everything else" symbol. Toomai Glittershine The Frivolous 10:45, February 16, 2020 (EST)

But Battlefield is not an "Other series" stage. It was an original Smash Bros. stage that happened to have a unique symbol. SeanWheeler (talk) 12:27, February 16, 2020 (EST)

Just going to put this here: The staff has already made it clear that the Battlefield symbol stays (and even I agree with their reasonings) so continueing to propose to change it will get you nowhere. OmegαToαd64 18:12, February 16, 2020 (EST)

How about using no placeholder symbol at all? Smash itself has no problems with doing that, for example in the Spirits inventory. I see it as a much better alternative than using symbols for completely different contexts than their original one, and it won't have the supposed ambiguity problems of the closest to official "miscellaneous" symbol that we have. Rdrfc (talk) 06:33, February 17, 2020 (EST)

Uh no. Having no symbol at all would look even more out of place. I hope that wasn't a joke comment, even though that was my first impression OmegαToαd64 07:46, February 17, 2020 (EST)

Not a joke comment, I am dead serious here. I wanted to argue in favor of the ellipsis (and I will if I am allowed to), but I do believe that having no placeholder is a good enough alternative (possibly better in some respects), and it fits with what the game itself does. While not having a symbol on the templates of minor characters might look a bit weird the first days, it doesn't take a lot of brainpower, if any at all, to infer that they don't have a symbol because their series weren't assigned one by the developer. SmashWiki might not be official, but that does not mean it is ok to use symbols and other iconografy for contexts completely different from what they were originally meant to, considering also that it causes confusion between pages that use the symbol in its proper official context and others that use it as a placeholder. --Rdrfc (talk) 09:39, February 17, 2020 (EST)

Read what I wrote above. The staff has decided that the Battlefield symbol is to be used. If you want to know their reasonings read the archive of this talk page. OmegαToαd64 09:54, February 17, 2020 (EST)

Literally no one argued about the possibility of dropping placeholder symbols altogether in the archived talk page, so that's still unsatisfactory reasoning to me. --Rdrfc (talk) 11:08, February 17, 2020 (EST)

I have considered the idea of dropping the placeholder symbol before the ellipsis thing came. But the admins wanted there to be some kind of symbol. Then Ultimate gives us a symbol for "Other" and they decided to only use it for lists about Ultimate while all the characters continue to use the Battlefield symbol, including the primary Spirits that used the ellipsis in-game like Spring Man. I really don't get why they love the Battlefield symbol so much. More people in the archived discussion favored the ellipsis. I understand the need for a placeholder symbol because losing it would break formatting. But the decision to keep using the Battlefield symbol after we've been given a better alternative broke this wiki. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:30, February 17, 2020 (EST)

SmashWiki is consenses based, not vote count. More valid reasons were provided to keep the Battlefield symbol (ellipses looked out of place comparedto actual symbols, they looked like misplaced text, etc.) whereas the only valid reason for the ellipses was because it was official. If there are other reasons that make the ellipses better that you can provide then go ahead and mention them. OmegαToαd64 17:51, February 17, 2020 (EST)