Template talk:SSBU character table

Order by Smash Debut

So, what do you guys think about maybe ordering the characters by their debut in Smash? I know that is usually not done for these games, but since the CSS for Smash Ultimate seems to be ordered by debut, I was wondering what everyone else would think about that. It would make the roster more flexible because you wouldn't have to worry about characters being separated from their series. We could also do this for Melee, Brawl and 3DS/Wii U. I would say we could do 10x10 for this game, so that the main veterans are all evenly laid out and then have the Mii Fighters (possibly separated into 3) in the final row. Thoughts? Master Zach (talk) 18:39, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

I don't know if we should do it for the other games, since that's not how anything is ordered there, but if we're being given a canon order for Ultimate, we should probably use it. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 18:42, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

We don't have to be wrong just because Sakurai chooses to be. Toomai Glittershine The Interspacial 18:45, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

You worded that kind of dismissively. With that said, yeah, after thinking it through some more, it's probably a poor order for our purposes. An alternative might be the series order listed here. What we have right now isn't going to be a problem otherwise, though. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 23:23, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Slight Reorder

I propose that we move Ice Climbers down a row to be next to Mr. Game and Watch, so that Corrin can be on the same row as the rest of the Fire Emblem characters. It looks a bit awkward to have Corrin as the only character on a different line than his series. 96.245.165.208 18:33, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

I would like that too, but ICs go first because they were announced in Smash before FE. Master Zach (talk) 18:01, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Pokémon Trainer

Since only his Pokémon are playable and not the trainer, shouldn't his spot take up only 3 spaces instead of four? I realize this doesn't change much in terms of series breaking (there's always the option to just organize the characters by their debut in Smash!), but it would help a little. Regardless, it does make sense to keep at least the 3 Pokémon separate, much like how Zelda & Sheik were separate in Melee & Brawl. Master Zach (talk) 21:44, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

We kept them all together for the table in Brawl, for whatever that's worth. Either way, this table's gonna look ugly as long as we stick to series debut order 96.245.165.208 12:01, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Denoting the starter characters

This may be too early for it, or unnecessary, but do you think we should highlight the starter’s names in bold this time instead of the unlockables? It would be a first, but I wanted to make sure before I started to work on it. Speed48 16:52, 6 July 2018 (EDT)

Should we add character numbers below and slightly change the ordering on the table?

This versrion (https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:SSBU_character_table&diff=prev&oldid=1175275) has the character numbers next to tbe series icons, and the characters are slightly reordered. Should we keep it that way? Here are the following reorders:

-Sheik is listed before Zelda, since Sheik was revealed first -Young Link is before Ganondorf, since YL was unlocked before Ganondord in Melee

-Pichu is placed before Mewtwo, due to Pichu was unlocked before Mewtwo in Melee

-Lucina is right before Rovin, since she was revealed before Robin. Even in Smash 4, despite Lucina being unlockable, had her trophy listed before Robin

-Wii Fit Trainer before Little Mac, since Wii Fit Trainer was revealed before Little Mac

-Additionally, This version listed the upcoming number of DLC newcomers as well, without editing the actual table. Should these changes by kept? 184.181.102.188 20:33, 21 January 2019 (EST)

See here and here for previous instances in which admins have explained the reasons not to use fighter numbers. For my thoughts on ordering, see here. Miles (talk) 20:37, 21 January 2019 (EST)

If Little Mac is placed before Wii Fit Trainer because Punch Out came first, then Duck Hunt should as well. That reasoning just doesn’t make sense. Also, if Pichu comes after Mewtwo because of the trophy list, then Lucina should be before Robin 184.181.102.188 20:51, 21 January 2019 (EST)

As I explained on my subpage, Little Mac comes before WFT because Punch-Out had representation in Brawl and Wii Fit didn't; Mewtwo before Pichu and Robin before Lucina are because clones go last. Duck Hunt was unlockable in SSB4 whereas Villager, Little Mac, WFT and Shulk weren't. The logic for my ordering is, to the best of my abilities, the simplest compromise between Smash's various ordering schemes that maintains consistency and ease of use. Miles (talk) 20:56, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Your ordering finally make sense to me aside from Little Mac and Lucina. While yes, technically Little Mac was an assist trophy in Brawl, that isn’t major representation. I don’t fully count Ice Climber as being represented in Smash 4 since it has no symbol in that gane, despite the polar bear enemy and the ice climbers trophy. Little Mac is also marketed after WFT all the time. Additionally, you never explicitly stated that clones go last in the ordering suggestions page. And with Lucina being revealed before Robin in both Smash 4 and Ultimate, as well as her trophy being before Rovin’s on the trophy list, I would say that she goes before Robin. 184.181.102.188 21:24, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Keep in mind that Lucina also comes after Robin for being unlockable in SSB3DS, where Robin is a starter. And I only used Punch-Out's Brawl representation as a "tiebreaker" since Little Mac is the older character but WFT was revealed for Smash first. Miles (talk) 23:50, 21 January 2019 (EST)

If your logic is that Lucina was unlockable, then Marth and Ness should be after Lucas and Ike. Even if they were introduced in the same game and Lucina was unlockable, the fact of the matter is that she was revealed to be playable before Robin. And while yes, technically Mac was technically in the series first, Wii Fit Trainer is marketed before Mac in literally everything. I don’t count the assist trophy as major representation. 184.181.102.188 02:01, 22 January 2019 (EST)

I take unlockability into account only for the character's debut game, so it's only important for distinguishing the order between characters who debut in the same game as one another. And the Little Mac/WFT issue is subjective, and I've decided it the way that makes the most sense to me based on the available criteria. Miles (talk) 10:08, 22 January 2019 (EST)

While I do see what you mean about taking into account the debut games for the characters as well, Imd still argue that Lucina should go first. Regardless of her status as an unlockable clone, the fact of the matter is that she was revealed before Robin was. Pichu and Young Link I can see being after Mewtwo and Ganondorf since none of them were revealed until after Melee released. I still disagree with YL after Ganondorf and Pichu after Mewtwo, but the reasoning you gave for kepping them after them was complretely reasonable. Lucina, on the other hand, was revealed before Robin, and should be before him regardless of her unlockable status. Even though Snake and Sonic were unlockable third parties, they were numbered by their debut like the other haracters as well (ibviously, they should stay put here because they’re third party), so I don’t think it would be a good idea to have Lucina after Robin just because she’s unlockable. As for Little Mac, the only criteria you’re giving me that makes sense to me is that he was an assist trophy in Brawl. However, the series icon, the playable character, the fact that the stage was punch-out themed, literally everything else came after wii fit trainer. Even in Ultimate, WFT was revealed before Mac. 184.181.102.188 02:50, 23 January 2019 (EST)

Should we add in boxes for the 4 (or 3 if a newcomer is revealed tomorrow) Fighters Pass characters

We know that they’re coming; the Fighters Pass is pretty explicitly stated to be 5 characters (1 of which is Joker, and another of which is pretty much confirmed to be revealed during E3). We know that these characters have to be new; there aren’t any veterans left to come back. We know that as a result of this.. So should we keep in the fact that there are 17 characters to future-proof this? And should we add in boxes for the other characters that use a code to something like this:

|colspan=2|
Fighters Pass Challenger X (DLC)

Lou Cena (talk) 22:11, June 10, 2019 (EDT) Lou Cena (talk) 22:11, June 10, 2019 (EDT)

I'm against the idea; it's gonna look weird with a bunch of whitespace in a table that doesn't need it. Aidan, the Rurouni 22:23, June 10, 2019 (EDT)

Fair point about the blank space. What if we use the image from this template () scaled up instead? Would that work? Also, even if we shouldn’t have the boxes, should we either keep the number at the top at 17 instead of 13-14, since we do know that’s our final number? Lou Cena (talk) 22:27, June 10, 2019 (EDT)

Nope. Add them as they are revealed. SerpentKing 22:45, June 10, 2019 (EDT)

Ultimate’s Order

Why can’t the roster on here match the order in the game? This question has been brought up a couple times and shot down without a proper discussion without a real decisive reason.

If it’s because it would create an inconsistency, that’s not true. If it would, then the roster order for the original Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64 would need to have its order changed. It currently has it match the order in the game, as should Ultimate’s. The other inconsistency is even though the lists are currently in the order of when each series joined Smash Bros, then Captain Falcon should be before Earthbound, which he’s currently not.

Although we don’t have to follow the list in the game, but that’s only if the community decides if we don’t want to after a proper discussion. I would like to have a proper discussion on the matter, as a case like this is suppose to.

May we please have Ultimate’s roster in the order that it is listed in the game? It would only be for this page. As well as a PROPER discussion for it? 172.58.169.12 02:04, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

Just a heads up, next time, keep discussion about a template on the template itself, not on the page it is on. I've done it for you this time. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 03:56, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

There was already a more proper discussion on this topic here[1]. As for me, although I listed fighters by number on WikiBound, I don't agree with listing the fighters by number on SmashWiki, a more Smash Bros focused wiki. First of all it can create inconsistency, a prime example would be by what Serpent King and Toomai mentioned: Echo Fighters. Being listed as the same number as the fighter they were cloned from is confusing, let's take Daisy for example:

• First, Daisy is a newcomer while Peach is a veteran, Daisy should be listed as #65 as she was announced after Inkling, but because she is Peach's Echo Fighter, she is #13 like Peach. This would be inconsistent as newcomers should be listed after veterans.
• Second, let's say Daisy gets de-cloned in Smash 7 (or 6 if you count SSB4 as the same game) then she would now be fighter #65, then as a result, Ridley would be moved to 66, Simon 67, K rool 68, etc. This would mean everyone after Daisy would need to be re-identified and can cause confusion especially to those who've gotten used to the previous order.

Although I do agree EarthBound should be listed before F-Zero as Ness is listed before C.Falcon.

So in conclusion I oppose. SupaToad64 04:25, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose The only reason Smash 64's character table is the way it is is because veterans and newcomers aren't a thing in that game, with it being the first Smash game and all. Thus, other games should keep consistency, and thus Ultimate's should be ordered by series. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 04:44, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

The Sakurai numbers are basically 100% arbitrary. (Yeah they're connected to character reveal order, but that itself is arbitrary - they could've chosen to tell us about Olimar before Diddy Kong on the Brawl website, and their numbers would change.) And even then, because of how clones/echoes work, the order can change between games, therefore making it impossible to be consistent. This makes them one of the worst possible orders to sort characters for any reason. SmashWiki is not official, so we shouldn't lock ourselves into being inferior just because the game does. Toomai Glittershine The Free 06:35, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

First off, I’d like to start off with an apology if I was not able to find a discussion on this topic before. Everything I COULD find seemed to have been shot down immediately. I do appreciate a discussion happening.

Smash Bros. for the 64 being the first should not be the deciding factor that it gets to be the exception to the rule, especially if this wiki is dead set on being consist throughout it. If Ultimate can’t be listed by number because it creates a inconsistency, then a change for the Smash for 64’s order is needed.

It wouldn’t matter if echo fighters were to be rearranged in a future installment as it would only effect Ultimate’s page template as it only applies to such. If the 6th installment had Daisy listed with a proper number, then it would only change the order for the 5th’s page and leaving Ultimate’s untouched.

Why does it matter if the numbered order doesn’t actually match up with characters’ deputes? It was already said that this wiki is not official, so I don’t see how that would create an inconsistency or problem. Also, if one is fine listening it themselves this way on a different wiki, why wouldn’t they be fine doing also on here? If it’s the echo fighters, then I already explained why that WOULDN’T make an inconsistency, and wouldn’t matter if it did. Same goes for the order of the stages. 172.58.169.12 09:50, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

The difference between WikiBound and SmashWiki is that WikiBound is an EarthBound focused wiki, not a Smash Bros Wiki, and the main reason a Smash Bros page exists on there is because of EarthBound representation, same goes with others like Bulbapedia or Super Mario Wiki. If the order changes between games then it won't affect WikiBound much because its not a Smash Bros wiki and consistency doesn't matter much on there. SmashWiki, however, is a wiki focused on Smash Bros and consistency is more important on here because Smash is the main focus. If the order changes in a later installment then the listing here would be incorrect if we leave it the same, and it will cause confusion. Also in the past we've always listed fighters by series as it makes it more organized and easier to locate a fighter, and then changing the order here would cause confusion and make the characters out of order: Let's say someone browsing this page wants to look up Rosalina then its easier to find her when she's grouped with Mario characters, but if she's listed by number then they'll have to search through a big pile of fighters to find her. Sure they can use the search bar but it makes it more convenient for them to just click on her portrait. If the order eventually changes then it's much harder to rearrange 80+ fighters compares to 12. Even though Smash 64 lists the fighters the way they are in game, they are still grouped by series as the only 2 franchises with more than 1 fighter (Mario and Pokemon) have the fighters in the same spot. There was no real valid reasons to why we should list fighters this way besides it being the "official listing", whereas people have given actual reasons to why we shouldn't. SupaToad64 11:20, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

But there are already inconsistencies which makes no sense as that what the main basis for these reasons why we shouldn’t. 64, Captain Falcon, and third-party are all inconsistencies right now. Plus, because I have been playing Ultimate since it came out, I personally find it much easier to find the characters when ordered the same way as Ultimate. It shouldn’t be a problem for those who play Ultimate. If you wanted info on Rosalina, you can just use the search bar. Same goes for the stages. (Which is not what I am getting at) Forgive me for saying so, but I feel the claim of that it would be inconsistent is more of not wanting to change it for the sake of not wanting change. Before dismissing Ultimate’s order due to the possibly of an inconsistency, please fix the inconsistencies of 64’s roster, as well as the placement of Captain Falcon and the third-party characters so that claim, if wished to be used, is more valid. 172.58.169.12 11:52, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

I think it’s fine as is honestly. None of the things you listed are broken per say.

• While Cap is numbered after Ness is in Ultimate, everything else F-Zero is listed before Earthbound, from the stages being before Earthbound, to the sound test listing F-Zero before Earthbound, to every previous game listing Captain Falcon before Ness. I don’t know why Captain Falcon is numbered after Ness, but a lot of other F-Zero content is still listed before Earthbound content, especially in past games.
• 64’s roster table is inconsistent when compared to the other games, but that’s because it’s the first game. It doesn’t need a veterans and newcomers table because it’s the first game. I think it’s fine as is, especially since every other game except Brawl uses a giant clusterf*ck of characters put together in random places.
• The third parties in general got listed last in Smash 4 and Brawl. They aren’t really anymore in Ultimate, but it’s consistent with two other games in the series. Lou Cena (talk) 13:16, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

I will admit I did not know that about F-Zero, but that doesn’t change the inconsistency with 64 or third-parties. Snake and Sonic should be before Villager with PAC-Man afterwards as that is when their series joined. Ken should also be in front of Inkling for the same reason. Being the first is not a viable reason to create an inconsistency. If 64 can, then so can Ultimate. If Ultimate can’t, then neither can 64. You guys want “consistency” on this wiki, but keep making “exceptions” for them. I can’t understand that reasoning. If none of them are consistent, it technically would make them consistent. The reasons previously stated, of which I already said my pieces on, do not make sense with the basis of supposed “consistency”. Do you WANT consistency on this wiki, or not? I do not understand with any of your conflicting examples and reasoning. 172.58.169.12 13:34, June 21, 2019 (EDT)