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Of course, we can't ignore semi-clones outright. That would be stupid and a huge hole in our encyclopedic nature. But can we stop trying to be the end-all be-all source on who is or isn't a semi-clone? What we should be reporting on -- what is ''fact'' -- is that no one can agree (bar a few exceptions). This page is a hot mess, honestly, and a lot of the mess would be cleaned up if we just stopped trying to justify our baseless definition of this equally baseless term. | Of course, we can't ignore semi-clones outright. That would be stupid and a huge hole in our encyclopedic nature. But can we stop trying to be the end-all be-all source on who is or isn't a semi-clone? What we should be reporting on -- what is ''fact'' -- is that no one can agree (bar a few exceptions). This page is a hot mess, honestly, and a lot of the mess would be cleaned up if we just stopped trying to justify our baseless definition of this equally baseless term. | ||
So I drafted up an example: | So I drafted up an example: User:TheNuttyOne/Clone. Semi-clones are no longer given walls of text; they are given brief references in the opening paragraphs. The characters who are widely agreed upon are said to be widely agreed upon. The characters who are debated are said to be debated. If the readers want to know more about their differences and similarities, they're welcome to open their individual pages -- this is a page on clones, which briefly discusses the highly controversial nature of semi-clones. | ||
Leave your thoughts. I probably won't respond to them because I fully expect to be ridiculed for this suggestion and don't have the energy or patience to deal with that. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 01:14, 20 December 2018 (EST) | Leave your thoughts. I probably won't respond to them because I fully expect to be ridiculed for this suggestion and don't have the energy or patience to deal with that. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 01:14, 20 December 2018 (EST) | ||
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::The exceptions are the reason why I say echo fighter reuses '''most of''' another character animation. People tends to no notice because the game is smooth as hell, but the amount of work put in the animation of the character is huge, we're talking about hundreds of animations for each character. The original animations for Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus are very very few, compared to the reused animations. And when you said that Dr Mario is similar to Mario, well, that goes my way : Dr Mario is similar, yet he has his own animations, therefore he is not an echo fighter. Of course, the wording may be off, I'm no native english speaker, so anyone can reword that in a better way, be my guest, but the truth is ''echo fighter'' means ''animation recycling'', all the echo fighters use mostly recycled animations, none of the regular fighters does. So when the wiki says that Dr Mario may not be considered an echo fighter because he is in the series prior to SSB4, that's simply not true, the reason he is not an echo is that he doesn't use Mario's animations. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:35, 27 January 2019 (EST) | ::The exceptions are the reason why I say echo fighter reuses '''most of''' another character animation. People tends to no notice because the game is smooth as hell, but the amount of work put in the animation of the character is huge, we're talking about hundreds of animations for each character. The original animations for Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus are very very few, compared to the reused animations. And when you said that Dr Mario is similar to Mario, well, that goes my way : Dr Mario is similar, yet he has his own animations, therefore he is not an echo fighter. Of course, the wording may be off, I'm no native english speaker, so anyone can reword that in a better way, be my guest, but the truth is ''echo fighter'' means ''animation recycling'', all the echo fighters use mostly recycled animations, none of the regular fighters does. So when the wiki says that Dr Mario may not be considered an echo fighter because he is in the series prior to SSB4, that's simply not true, the reason he is not an echo is that he doesn't use Mario's animations. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:35, 27 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::This is as arbitrary a definition as any other, and don't really see what value it adds over what is currently here. Animations are not the only part of a character's defining gameplay and mechanics, and should not be the sole determinant of what makes an echo fighter/semi clone/clone. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:46, 27 January 2019 (EST) | :::This is as arbitrary a definition as any other, and don't really see what value it adds over what is currently here. Animations are not the only part of a character's defining gameplay and mechanics, and should not be the sole determinant of what makes an echo fighter/semi clone/clone. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:46, 27 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::::As said in the initial message, I have professional knowledge about video game development, so this is not an arbitrary definition. The animations '''are''' the element that differentiate echo fighters from regular fighters : all 69 regulars fighters have only animations of their own, fact, all 7 echo fighters reuse most of another fighter animations, fact. Let me put that in perspective : imagine I'm a biologist, and I'm telling you that an animal in front of you is a "zebra", and you're telling me that it's an arbitrary name and that "striped horse" is as good, that the situation I'm in right now. Echo fighters are animations recycling, I'm 100% sure of that, it's as obvious to me as the striped horse being a zebra. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:54, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::::Unless your professional knowledge of video games from development comes from working on SSBU, and you are on their design team and can provide evidence to substantiate that, your definition is your own opinion and entirely arbitrary. You are yourself qualifying the fact that "most" Echo Fighters share "most" of their animations because it's not as iron clad as you make it out to be. I also have a degree in biochemistry and that analogy is nonsensical. What single part of the definition on the main page is factually incorrect? They *do* share most of their movesets; they *do* have similar proportions; they *do* have different taunts and poses. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 14:02, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::::::Sorry to disagree, but a professional developper doesn't need to have work on a game to be able to see how it has been done, game development is an expertise field just as any other one, it's not some kind of magic. Echo fighters do share animations, it's '''visible'''. And the fact that you insinuate that I wouldn't be able to tell if I didn't work on a game is low key insulting. The fact that you can't see that I'm right doesn't equate with me being wrong. As you have a degree in biochemistry, would you say that you can't understand another expert work ? Aren't things related to biochemistry that are obvious to you but that "normal" people can't "see" ? Do you consider your specific knowledge about biochemistry as bieng an "opinion" ? For me, and you need to understand that it's not an opinionn it's an expert analysis, echo fighters being animation recylcing is as obvious as basic biochemistry must be for you, it's the 1+1=2 of my expertise field. Also, I didn't say that ''most'' of the echo fighters share most of their animation, '''ALL''' echo fighters share most of their animation, all 7 of them, there is nothing approximate about that. ''PS : The statement about Dr Mario, Young Link, and Pichu is pure speculation, and factually false, as said in my first message.'' [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:34, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::::::Also, this is a wiki page, it's about informations, not about coincidences. Animations recycling is the criteria that makes an echo an echo. Echo fighters do share their moveset, but that's just a consequence of reusing animations for development efficiency, sharing a moveset does not make a fighter an echo, it's not enough. Echo fighter do have similar proportions, but here again, that's a consequence (or more accuratly, a requirement) of reusing animations, having similiar proportions does not make a fighter an echo, it's not enough either. The definition about echo fighter should display actual criteria defining echo fighter, not criteria that are both true for echo fighters and non echo fighters (Lucas does share his moveset and have similar proportion with Ness, yet he is not an echo because those two criteria don't make a fighter an echo). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:49, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:The game defines echo fighters and that is the definition we should use for Echoes. The nature of semi-clones vs clones can be up for debate, but I don't think an official definition of who is/isn't an Echo Fighter specifically is up to us. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 12:02, 27 January 2019 (EST) | :The game defines echo fighters and that is the definition we should use for Echoes. The nature of semi-clones vs clones can be up for debate, but I don't think an official definition of who is/isn't an Echo Fighter specifically is up to us. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 12:02, 27 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::You got it all wrong. You seem to think that I'm trying to redefine what echo fighters are. I'm not. I'm trying to explain that the wiki definition is factually wrong, because written by people who speculated without the required knowledge to do so (no blame intended). The definition of echo fighters I told here is the actual definition of echo fighters. I don't see where it contradict the game. The game doesn't even defines echo fighters, I have no clue where you got that from. And I surely never talked about defining who is/isn't an echo fighter... | ::You got it all wrong. You seem to think that I'm trying to redefine what echo fighters are. I'm not. I'm trying to explain that the wiki definition is factually wrong, because written by people who speculated without the required knowledge to do so (no blame intended). The definition of echo fighters I told here is the actual definition of echo fighters. I don't see where it contradict the game. The game doesn't even defines echo fighters, I have no clue where you got that from. And I surely never talked about defining who is/isn't an echo fighter... [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:54, 27 January 2019 (EST) | ||
Animations come into it but don't echoes also share all the main stats with their original fighter? Dr Mario for example has different speeds and jumps. The echoes don't. --[[User:Delia|Delia]] ([[User talk:Delia|talk]]) 15:55, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:Ken is faster than Ryu, so sharing stats is not a requirement for being an echo fighter. Animations is the key criteria, I don't know how I can make it clear to everyone but echo fighters are basically low cost characters : animating a character is unarguably the most time consuming task (and therefore the most costly part) of developping a figher in Smash. By reusing most of an other character animations, the developpers allow themself to add an extra fighter in the game for a really cheap development price by saving on the main part of its budget. That's the actual motive behind what echo fighters are : low cost characters. Everything else is nothing but ulterior developments that doesn't affect the characters echo status. They can keep any part of the character a pure copy, but that's never a requirement for the fighter to be an echo. They may keep all the stats, but they may also decide to change some, and it won't disqualify the fighter as being an echo (that's what they did for Ken). So yeah, in the end, objectively looking at the motive behind echo fighters and the 7 ones we have, I can tell for sure that animations recycling is what's make an echo an echo. ''And just for the record, it's not like I decided so right of the bat, when the first direct aired, as anyone, I was surprised by Dr Mario not being considered an echo. But when the second direct aired, by seeing Dark Samus and Chrom, especially seeing how Dark Samus switch between a few floating animations and many non floating animations, I figured out the pattern. And it actually made me predict that if Isabelle would be added, she wouldn't be an echo fighter, because the Villager animations wouldn't fit her, and I guessed right. And when Sakurai said Isabelle couldn't be an echo, the very next sentence he said right after is that she has her own animations, so if not direct proof of me being right, it's still good evidence I am.'' [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:40, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::Dr. Mario’s animations are exacty alike to Mario’s though. That’s the problem. I trust you that Sakurai used a different rig of animations for him, but the fact of the matter is that his animations are exactly like Mario’s except for 4 moves. | |||
::::I didn't think I would have to make a whole lesson about 3D animation today... Ok, so animations being alike is not the same as recycling animations. Dr Mario animations may look like Mario, but they still are entirely new data, which mean that no matter how much they look alike, an animator spent a lot of time making them. On the other hand, echo fighters animations (most of them) are duplicated files. Making Dr Mario's idle required an animator to use an animation software for hours, meanwhile Daisy's idle is literally a Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of Peach's in the data folder. That's the difference between making similar animations for a regular fighter and recycling animations for an echo fighter. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:02, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
I have changed the page to take into account that the official usage of "echo" is incompatible with the popularly-understood defition of "clone". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 17:13, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
All of Ken's other stats are literally a copy of Ryu's. Only his walk/run speed is slightly different. Dr Mario on the other hand has different run speed, air speed, gravity, power, air acceleration etc. He plays very differently to Mario. None of the echoes do, and some are literally the exact same in gameplay. --[[User:Delia|Delia]] ([[User talk:Delia|talk]]) 17:15, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:And I'm pretty sure we can also find fighters that aren't echo fighters and have yet identical stats (I have no idea where to check that however, I know there is a pages somewhere on that wiki with break down stats for each fighter, but I don't know where). The fact that echo have mostly similar stats is a natural consequence of them using the same animations : if a character has the same walk animation, of course he's gonna walk the same speed, otherwise his feet would slide on the ground, looking all glitchy (that's why Ken's walk and run animations loop faster than Ryu's). But that's still not what define an echo fighter. Honnestly, it's a paintful conversation, I feel like I'm trying to convince you all that 1+1=2, and that you're arguing otherwise, because that's how obvious it is to me. When I say I'm 100% sure of what makes an echo an echo, I'm not juste putting some emphasis on that number, I'm genuinely 100% sure of what I'm saying, I don't think I'm right, I know I am. All the thing you're all talking about are not defining elements, there just similarities you witnessed with your gamer eyes, some of them are mandatory consequences of sharing animations, some are just coincidental, but none of them are relevant to what an echo is from the perspective of the game. An echo is a low cost character, how ? By cutting most of the animation budget for that character. Why Sakurai did choose to make a dev side perspective an official gameplay element, bite me, I have no clue (I actually think he should have extended the concept to all clones) but the reality is that the seven characters that are echo fighters are the seven and only ones that use shared animations. I'm not making that up, I'm seeing it. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 17:52, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::Having similar stats actually doesn't have much to do with having similar/identical animations; the Smash Bros. engine is smart enough to match animation speed to movement speed, which heavily minimizes any additional feet-sliding. | |||
::But anyway if your premise is that "they'e echoes because they copy-paste animation work", then sure, but that's not an airtight viewpoint. Some non-echoes also re-use animations, such as Ness' and Lucas' floor attacks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 21:00, 27 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::The engine is smart enough to match animation speed...? How much do you know about animating a 3D model ? That's not how it works... Yes, you can just speed up an animation, it feasible. Would it be the proper thing to do tho ? No. It works with Ken and Ryu because their animations are old school inspired. But for a more natural animation, speeding it up would end up feeling unatural. That won't be up to Nintendo standard. They don't do that. About Ness and Lucas, they may have the same data for a few animation, I didn't check, and I'm not gonna do so, but it's still gonna be few animation recycling, while echo fighter mostly use recycled animations. This whole conversation is really really painful... I'm a pro, I know what I'm talking about, I know that the wiki page contains speculations that are purely and simply false, and you're all there saying me that I'm wrong because your uneducated self on the matter can't understand it. You're not disagreeing with me because I'm wrong, you're disagreeing with me because you don't have the required expertise to understand what you're talking about... such a pain. I know what I'm talking about, I don't think I'm right, I know I'm right, I'm not 99% sure I am, I am 100% sure I am, because that's my job, because I understand what the dev team did because I would have done the same thing. Echo fighters are animation recycling, they are made that way so they are cheap to develop. Having the same rig is not a criteria, it's a requirement for animation recylcing : if a character have the same rig as another but still have his own animations, he's not an echo fighter, period. Having similar moves is a consequence of reusing animation : if the animation is the same, of course the move is gonna be similar, but having similar moves is not enough to be qualified as an echo fighter. And if animations are the same, stats are likely to be the same too, it's normal, it's about having a result that feels natural, why do you think animators read so many books about human anatomy ? I have a master degree and more than 10 years of experience, I know what I'm talking about, I know how a game technically works, I know how a game production go, I can tell how Smash was technically made, and I can tell how its production went. Echo fighters are animation recycling, it's not open to debate, it is precisely what echo fighters are, it's obvious as hell. So don't tell the doctor that you know better than him about medicine, thanks ! [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 10:19, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::Now, my formulation isn't clear and obviously lacks a lot at being convicing, so this need to done differently, and that's the reason I started this talk, but I can ensure you that what define a character as being an echo fighter is that this character mostly reuse the animations of another character, cutting a big part of the budget a character normally require (we're talking here about a cut that is around 70% if not 90% of its price), reusing animations obviously require keeping the same rig/skeleton, and leads to the character having a lot of similarities in their gameplay (because two moves that are animated the same can't be totally different). You can tell me as much as you cant that you don't think so, you don't know what you're talking about, while I do. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 10:19, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
A character's status as an echo fighter is not subjective. Sakurai himself has identified Ken, Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, Lucina, Chrom, and Dark Pit as echo fighters, both through interviews and the official website. This is what the page is basing their classification on. The qualifications for a semi-clone have not been established, meaning that they are up for interpretation. While I agree with YoshiRyu that nearly all of these characters have tons of work put into them, that does not change the fact that the characters listed above have been OFFICIALLY confirmed by the Smash Ultimate team as echo fighters. We can personally disagree with their classification system, but for the purpose of this page, Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link are not echo fighters. [[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 11:26, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:Where the hell did I say anything about the fighters status ? I said : THE WIKI DEFINITION IS WRONG, the '''WIKI DEFINITION''', not the list of fighters, not the classification, the '''DEFINITION''', the text at the begining of the section. Can people stop replying without reading what I said please ! [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 11:45, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
I feel that explaining what happened here may help : Prior to SSBU, we had "clones", clones was a concept defined by players to adresse characters with similarities. When Nintendo announced the echo fighters, players thought it was nothing but an aknowledgement of the concept of clones, and simply slapped the clone definition on that new concept : Echo fighters are clones. But then, dissonances started to appear : Dr Mario is a clone, but he isn't an echo fighter. And instead of rethinking what echo fighters may be, players started twisting the definition they previously copied from clones to make it fit despite those dissonance, adding made up exceptions : like echo fighters are clones, but not the one that are prior to SSB4, that's why Dr Mario isn't an echo fighter (seriously, you think that the way Sakurai went, that he said in a meeting "Echo fighters are characters that are similar but not the one prior to SSB4, because I don't want to" ?). My version, build from scratch, by analysing the characters, is simple, functionnal, fits all the characters, and makes sense from a development perspective, from Sakurai's perspective : There is two type of characters in SSBU, the ones with a full budget, and the low cost one, the laters, made possible by mostly reusing animations to cut cost, are called Echo fighters. All the seven echo fighters recycle animations, none of the regular fighters does, it's a straight forward explanation that make sense, that every single character in the game fits, and that works without any dissonance, without having to make up some random rule about character being prior to SSB4. You should really stop clinging to that flawed definition built upon the clone definition and start considering that echo fighters are not related to what players consider to be a clone, but to what Sakurai consider to be a factual technical difference between two type of fighters. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 11:45, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::It appears that I misunderstood your argument, so I apologize for that. In regards to the bits of speculation scattered around the article, it might be a good idea to do away with them entirely. One example that you brought up is the arbitrary exception that characters introduced prior to Smash 4 cannot be echo fighters. I agree that there is no evidence for this and was simply an assumption an editor felt was worth including in the article. Your knowledge on the matter of video game development can serve the wiki well, and we appreciate the fact that you used the talk page first before drastically altering the article (Although I'm pretty sure the page is protected at of the time of this post). However, it is worth noting that certain echo fighters possess unique moves as well, with Ken being the most obvious example.[[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 12:02, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::::Thanks for apologizing, I was a bit upset because it was the second time someone misunderstood me, I went overboard, I shouldn't have. I agree with most of what is said there, I just think that a sentence should be added to explain that animation recycling is what qualify a character as being an echo fighter, that the "similar if not identical proportions" should be replaced by "identical proportions", and that the speculation about SSB4 priorness should be either totally scraped or replaced by something like "Some characters that debuted as pure clones got a full budget for SSBU and did not end up being echo fighters, such as Dr Mario." [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 12:29, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
:::::First, please cease with the "I know better than you because it's my job" attitude, it makes you look snobbish and combative rather than helpful. I also have several years of experience with 3D modelling and animation and a university degree in game development (though admittedly no professional experience in either), so I'd like to believe I'm not uninformed on the matter. | |||
:::::Second: I agree that parts of the article need to be updated due to us determining that "clone" and "echo" do not mean the same thing (my previous edit was mostly a stopgap). I don't believe it is particularly urgent, but I do plan on giving it a serious look within the next few days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Inconceivable 22:42, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::::::I know what I'm talking about, and I have people telling my that what I say is "arbitrary", that I can't tell because i didn't work specifically on SSBU, and even comments that aren't related to what I said, is it that suprising that I ended up being combative and have to remind people that I'm talking from a legit standpoint ? Can you imagine how frustrating it is ? Imagine how you would feel if someone was arguing with you that fighters only have one texture, and that what you claim about those weird normal map and other maps is just an "interpretation", "arbitrary", and that you don't know because you didn't work on that game anyway. | |||
::::::Now, as you're knowledgable in animation, please answer those questions : Do you confirm that each character uses hundreds of animations ? Do you therefore agree that the animation budget is overwelmingly bigger than any other task required in the making of a fighter ? Do you confirm that echo fighters reuse most of their "parent" animations ? Do you confirm that regular characters all have a full set of animations of their own (mostly) ? Do you agree that reusing animations is an effective way to drastically cut down the development cost of a fighter ? And do you think that, from a production perspective, it makes sense to see echo fighters as low cost fighters for which the animation budget has been drastically reduced ? And while I'm at it, do you confirm that having the same rig/skeleton is a requirement for the reused animations to work properly ? And do you also confirm that reusing animations is very likely to cause similar moves and similar stats ? | |||
::::::Because in the end, I'm still 100% sure that the point behind echo fighters was to put low cost characters by saving on the insane animation budget, and that the gap between regular fighters and echo fighters is significant enough to do such a claim : We're talking here about a very tangible difference, with seven fighters on one hand having more than 90% reused animations, and all the other fighters on the other hand being way bellow 5% of reused animations, 0% for most of them. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 05:15, 29 January 2019 (EST) | |||
== Suggested way to clean up the clones page. == | |||
So now that the game released, I think we have a pretty good idea of what makes an echo fighter now. I also think I have figured out why some clones have no real gameplay changes. | |||
'''We know that Echo Fighters are meant to have the same overall attributes as their source character.''' This was proven via data mining. All echo fighters have very similar or identical overall attack/speed/range/weight/gravity/jumps/grab speeds. No echo has the ability to wall jump if their source character cannot for example. They also share all the core mechanics, so stuff like Isabelle's Fishing Rod and Link's Hookshot for example would be major mechanic. Dr Mario's equipment change his abilities a lot. Animations also come into play as all echo fighters have the exact same skeletons (Dr Mario does too, and so does Wolf and Lucas, but they have lots of ability changes). If I had to guess then I think that they didn't want to add to play-testing too much and account for multiple scenarios such as possible combo setups working on a character and not an echo. That's my take on it. --[[User:Delia|Delia]] ([[User talk:Delia|talk]]) 18:21, 28 January 2019 (EST) | |||
: Obviously, you are a Memoryman3 sockpuppet. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 15:33, 30 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::If a user is trying to give constructive advice, I would refrain from repeatedly smearing them as a sockpuppet. Try to assume good faith.[[User:OldLink5|OldLink5]] ([[User talk:OldLink5|talk]]) 16:43, 30 January 2019 (EST) | |||