User talk:Wolff/Archive 1

Welcome

Welcome aboard and thanks for your edits! We're so proud of you! Dragonfirebreath25 (talk) 00:52, 20 October 2018 (EDT)

Thank you so much! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolff (talk • contribs) 00:53, October 20, 2018‎

A brief reminder that you should sign your posts with four tildes. Anyways, welcome to the Wiki! SugarCookie420 (talk) 11:29, 20 October 2018 (EDT)

Thank you for informing me!Wolff (talk) 16:21, 20 October 2018 (EDT)

Fan-made images

You have recently uploaded an image of a supposed official artwork of both Popo and Nana. However, it should be noted that the depiction of Popo is clearly a recolor of Nana's. This is best noticed in the lack of shading on his parka and hair, and pink colored artifacts around the parka, all resulted from shoddy recoloring.

This image counts as fanart, or as an otherwise altered artwork, which is discouraged on the wiki, barring specific exceptions. Please refrain from uploading altered images of this nature in the future.

You can read about our policy on uploaded images and what fanart can be exempted here. — Nokii (T·C·L) 01:02, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

Whoops! I thought it was official. (isn't it possible that it is official and a recolor, like how Luigi debuted?) Thank you for informing me of my mistake, and for replacing it with a proper image. Wolff (talk) 01:10, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

Character art

In general, the following rules are observed on this wiki for home series character art on pages such as Mario:

1. The art used in the infobox is the home series art which is the origin of their current design in Smash, or essentially equivalent to it.
2. Art used in the "Character description" section, if any, should only be art that is either of their next-most-recent Smash design (such as Twilight Princess Link) or of their major alternate costume (such as Advent Children-styled Cloud).
3. Art used as the basis for another alternate character design (such as Ocarina of Time Link) should go down in the page's gallery.
4. More art than that is considered undesirable. We're a wiki for Smash, so home series art that's not relevant to their Smash appearance is better left on a wiki about that home series.

While none of these are 100% set-in-stone rules, they are more-or-less longstanding de facto policy. If you'd like to discuss changing this, please do so on a relevant article's talk page or on the general proposals page. As it stands, while I appreciate the effort and intent you put into them, I've reverted many of your edits regarding this. Thank you. Miles (talk) 02:40, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

Okay. I thought it was a bit strange that some had it and other didn't. I thought their character descriptions were suppose to have a picture for how they first were introduced to the series (Zelda, Link), or their original appearance if it differed (Daisy, Pac-Man, Sonic). And as for the profile picture, I thought it was suppose to be their most recent non-Smash appearance of their home series. Being along the lines of, this is how the character you're looking for currently looks like outside of Smash. For cases if they looked drastically or noticeably different than before (Villager). (In the case of Fire Emblem, Robin has his most recent as his profile and his original for character description. Other FE characters like Corrin, Lucina, and Chrom only have their original as profile)(I understood Cloud's as his Advent Children outfit is not the default) Thank you for informing me, and I will try to look it over more before the next time I add art. Wolff (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

As a heads-up, origin sections on AT pages should probably demonstrate the origins of their AT abilities, not just be additional home series art which is redundant to the infobox. Miles (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2018 (EDT)

Okay. I will try to double check as so it does not become redundant. As in, not using the same game's artwork (or same picture) for both Infobox and Origin unless they differ greatly.

This is getting ridiculous. While I appreciate the positive intent behind your edits, you are bloating pages with redundant and/or unnecessary images that are quite simply not needed. We do not need to overload our pages with source-game images; in fact, part of the point of our affiliation with other wikis is so that users can go elsewhere for extended home series information. Please take this seriously: work to abide by SW:IMAGE, in particular its points on excessive images. I don't want to be the mean scary admin here, but you're being very resistant to understanding this point and there will be consequences if you continue this behavior. Miles (talk) 02:38, 27 October 2018 (EDT)

Well that's 4 hours of making and adding screenshots down the drain (sigh).

1. I had looked at SW:IMAGE and thought it applied to the Kid Icarus enemies since they did not have any from their game yet. I guess I should have checked if it resembled the character art, or the trophies too much/exactly.
2. In hindsight, I probably didn't need to add them in the Origin for the Kid Icarus assist trophies as they already had a picture/gif that worked.
3. Also (to clarify any confusion), in terms of images regarding the Kid Icarus series, I only added character art for the enemies and the Idol screenshots. I was not the one who added all the pictures to the Skyworld gallery, or the one who added any of the origin pictures (or extras in the gallery) for Pit or Palutena (those where already there before I added the Idol pictures). I also did not take the Idol pictures from another wiki. I made the Idol screenshots myself with this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9zaCd8o05A. (It was the clearest one of the Idols I could find right now)

I still really want to help with the Wiki. Whether it be small trivia, adding more/clearer images, or the structure of a page. (i'm no good in terms of gameplay or competitive mechanics so I avoid adding to those)

In terms of images, do you think you could explain to me more so what is considered as a "acceptable" or "passable" (like my edit regarding the Darknut? https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Darknut&diff=1107012&oldid=966951. Despite editing it, you did not remove anything I added. Or my edit with the Bubble? https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Bubble&diff=1106972&oldid=1067187)

And could you explain along the lines of, "(insert examples) these kinds of examples are mostly acceptable for origin pictures because of such and such"?

I really don't mean to cause trouble. I just want to help. One of the reasons I started editing on this wiki was cause I mentioned to a friend, "I hope they make the stage overview titles more consistent." He then said, "why don't you do it yourself? It is a wiki, isn't?" I did not decide to make an account until a week later.

I do have more questions regarding more kinds of edits that I wanted to discuss with you if you are willing to listen. I know I may sound redundant right now, but I apologize for any inconvenience and/or annoyance I've caused you. (I'll try to refrain from editing pages until you respond). Wolff (talk) 15:18, 27 October 2018 (EDT)

Since Miles is currently unavailable, I can try to answer your question until he's available. Your edit to Darknut was replacing the previous image with official artwork from its home game. This (potentially) is coincidental with what me, DryKirby64, and others are doing right now to the wiki: replacing all character images in the infobox with images from their origin. Your edit there wasn't removed because it was contributing to our efforts and agreed upon here. The same applies to Bubbles. SugarCookie420 (talk) 20:52, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

Speaking of images, your image here seems to be a user image. In the future, whenever you upload a user image, place Category:User images in the description (with [[ ]] around it). SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:12, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

1. Thank you for answering my question.
2. I did not know I needed to specify if I had wished to use a picture as my profile. I will keep that in mind should I decide to change it.

In fact, I was also planing on going to your talk page in hopes of discussing some things about the wiki (such as the origin/infobox images), if you are willing to indulge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolff (talk • contribs) 21:34, October 29, 2018

I am open to any questions, but it's still best to ask an administrator, because they know the rules better than I do. Also, I've been on this wiki for barely a year, so I may not be the best person to ask :p. SugarCookie420 (talk) 21:36, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

Whoops! I had miss read your comment. I thought you had said that you were DryKirby64. I apologize for the confusion. Regardless, I am still open to any discussions you wish to to partake in the future. Wolff (talk) 21:44, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

In addition to having had this conversation with you before, your recent uploads go against both that and the general rule that mass editing should be accompanied by a decent consensus. Please stop uploading unnecessary character art. We require one piece of non-smash art per character...possibly two if the circumstances call for it, but we don't need several generations of pokemon art for example. Thanks! Serpent  King 18:04, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

In regards to Raichu, Vulpix and Exeggutor, their Alolan forms are different forms. Considering Vulpix already had both before I added to it, thought they needed the sprite art for their origins. Same process went for Raichu and Exeggutor.

In regards to the other Pokemon, I had added both the original art of Goldeen and the original sprite of Goldeen, and Miles (talk) had allowed both at the time. I was curious (in regards to gen 1 and 2 where their art differs for the original and their remakes) if I should actually include both. I guess for the first two gens, aside from Alolan forms, really just the original artwork is needed for their origins and not also their sprites. The other gens can just have their sprits/models since they use the one art they have for their infoboxes. Thank you for informing me in this learning process of mine. I hope you'll continue to help me correct my future mistakes. Wolff (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Look, Wolff. I really don't like feeling like I'm being constantly critical of you, but please listen to what you're being told. Please stop assuming you need to add more art to every single page. Please stop assuming every "character description" and "origin" section needs as many images as possible. If you're even 1% unsure, ask on a talk page before editing it in. I know you're editing in good faith, but please take me seriously when I say that this is getting extremely aggravating to deal with. I don't want to phrase this as a warning, but I don't know how else to get through to you at this point. If you keep doing this, I will seriously consider blocking you for disruption. Miles (talk) 21:41, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Okay, I'll try to stop adding art to the origins and character descriptions without discussing it on the talk page first. I do really apologize for the trouble, and want to make it right. I had asked on your talk page before if you'd be willing to discuss some things (one already got answered since then) with me. Among them being art. Would that be alright? Wolff (talk) 23:15, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Hi

You can hold off on removing the art you added before; we're having a conversation about it in the administrator's channel on Discord. I am sorry for the trouble and confusion, and thank you for putting forth such good faith and effort to the wiki. – Emmett 18:38, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Oh, okay. I will hold off on that for now then. Thank you for informing me (and your complement), and I am sorry for any trouble. (I would hope I would hear back about it, if that is alright) Wolff (talk) 18:41, 6 November 2018 (EST)

It’s a bit hard with our time zones not aligning perfectly well, but yeah one of us will let you know how it goes once things are resolved. Are you on discord by chance? – Emmett 18:50, 6 November 2018 (EST)

That's good to hear, and time zones are not an issue for me. Just let me know as soon as someone can when it's resolved. Unfortunately, I do not have any forms of social media. Wolff (talk) 19:08, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Somebody removed some of the art I added (that you told me to hold off on removing), was the decision reached? Wolff (talk) 21:42, 6 November 2018 (EST) <-(Never mind!)

They did, but I reverted them. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 22:08, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Oh, Okay. Wolff (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2018 (EST)

I guess the discussion regarding the artwork/screenshots/sprites for the Origin section wasn't/isn't as simple as I thought it would have been. Wolff (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2018 (EST)

This is somewhat belated, but I owe you an apology, Wolff. I overreacted with frustration to your attempts to help the wiki with origin information, and for that I am sincerely sorry; simply put, I shouldn't have blocked you. I'd like to remedy things by being supportive of your efforts on the site going forward. Miles (talk) 13:16, 11 November 2018 (EST)

Apology accepted Miles (talk)! Honestly, I was more concern with when it occurred as it happened three days after I edited an Origin page instead of the day it edited it. I apologize for causing you frustration in any capacity, and I hope that we can put this behind us as we continue to help the wiki, especially with Ultimate less than a month away! Wolff (talk) 15:08, 11 November 2018 (EST)

About the alternate art being on the general pages

I personally think it looks much worse if it’s in the gallery. Rather than having the costumes stuck at below every single bit of fighter info, it would be much more appropriate to place them in the game they relate too. For example, Cloud’s two costumes work much better being together and by game instead of one for SSB4, one for Ultimate, and two randomly in the gallery when a more appropriate location exists. Lou Cena (talk) 01:42, 15 February 2019 (EST)

The reason why I removed them was because I'm pretty sure it was discussed at an earlier point that they weren't necessary in the main paragraphs and looked too cluttered. In Cloud's and Bayonetta's case, its noted in their main character bios. I do remember someone (an Admin) telling me they belonged in the gallery. Wolff (talk) 01:51, 15 February 2019 (EST)

The problem with having them in the gallery is that it’s even more cluttered. Instead of having everything neatly grouped inside two sections, it’s scattered throughout three. Additionally, it’s best if they were placed in their appropriate game if it’s relating to their official Smash artwork, rather than being mixed in with images that do not directly relate to super smash bros. Lou Cena (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2019 (EST)

"New" character art

Please, generally speaking, stop emphasizing "newness" in picking character art for pages. If the previous art 100% serves our purposes, replacing it for newer art is 100% unnecessary and in many cases can be outright inferior. This is flat-out worse for our purposes than this in pretty much every capacity. (And no, "it's the same as the spirit art" is very very much not a good reason to push for something else.) Miles (talk) 22:11, 25 February 2019 (EST)

Is it? I apologize then.

In regards to newer art, I thought we were suppose to update them when necessary if it matched. Or it was just coincidence that I had seen other users do it as well. For the Koopalings, I wasn't sure if I should have done their group or their individual. I thought the individual would work since you said the group did not. Especially considering that four Koopalings are depicted with things not percent in Smash in their New Super Mario Bros. 2 art, while only one was in their BISDX art.

And could you please explain "flat-out worse for our purposes" "in pretty much every capacity"? I do not understand what you mean by that. It it related to their quality or the fact that they're 2D?

In regards to differing art, I also remember users changing the art so it differed from their stickers (more variety and less redundancy was the reason given at times), since I saw that people were doing it for their Spirits as well, I thought it was okay.

I will double check with an Admin (if not you), if I'm compelled to do either again. (I just hope someone will respond) Wolff (talk) 22:30, 25 February 2019 (EST)

I’m definitely not an admin, but I will say this: aside from the koopalings, Marth, and Lyn, they were all adequate replacements. They aren’t really necessary, but if you want to do it, go aheah. Just make sure the image is still hogh quality and fits in. And put in art from 3d games as much as possible Lou Cena (talk) 04:49, 26 February 2019 (EST)

Also, I am in the understanding that we (the Wiki) were suppose to update them when necessary to their latest appearances, if it matched their latest portrayal in Smash. Aside from seeing other users doing at, the main basis for my reasoning comes from these two discussions. One that I was part of, but Aidanzapunk was part of both. Miles, can you please correct me if these statements from June and November of last year (2018) have change since then? And can you please explain what you mean by "flat-out worse for our purposes" "in pretty much every capacity"? As I said before, I do not understand what you mean by it. (Please only the users I just mentioned respond to this thread as I am asking a question to him/them) Wolff (talk) 22:59, 27 February 2019 (EST)

If I may, the thing about art is that we don't want the artwork to look bad. Low quality artwork isn't exactly preferable, so following the "most recent artwork" thing to a T is not always the best idea. I also can't help but notice a reliance on administrators here, which isn't really how things go. I'm not sure exactly what you're confused about here, to be quite honest, given both Miles' and my overtly specific wording. Aidan, the Irish Rurouni 23:11, 3 March 2019 (EST)

1)So it was that they were low quality. I honestly thought that they were in good quality, which is probably the reason why I was not able to understand before with the word choices regarding the quality of the two images. I guess they actually weren't in good enough quality then. I will make sure to prioritize quality with said images.

2)I am aware of the SW:ADMIN#Administrators are not kings guidelines, but it is difficult not to automatically fall under the opposite mindset in certain circumstances. As I am aware of the guidelines, I will try to remind myself of them in the future. Wolff (talk) 21:07, 8 March 2019 (EST)

In general, I think that, rather than the "latest" character art, you should focus on what most accurately represents what the character looks like in Smash. In many cases, this is the same as the latest, but not always. For example, Zelda uses her A Link Between Worlds artwork as the default, rather than her Breath of the Wild artwork, which is the latest chronologically, but doesn't represent her well in terms of Smash. Likewise, Samus uses artwork from Other M rather than Samus Returns, and so on. In the case of the Koopalings and Bowser's minions, the 3D renders represent their Smash appearances better than the more cartoony, low-resolution 2D art. Just think about what best represents the characters as they appear directly in the game. DryKirby64 (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I had already understood that. I know they are suppose to have what matches their Smash appearances. The problem was not that 3D is preferred over 2D (as numerous pages use them, such as the ones regarding Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters), it was just the misunderstanding I had regarding the Koopalings art I tried adding being low resolution. Perhaps they could have worked had they all been higher resolutions. Roy, Morton, and Lemmy's 3D art all have items that do not appear in Smash, but are currently the most acceptable art as they all have high resolution in comparison to their, current, latest art. Wolff (talk) 21:40, 8 March 2019 (EST)

There's another layer to that, too: if the 2D art deviates significantly from the designs in Smash, other artwork is preferable. For example, Mario doesn't use his artwork from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey because the Mario & Luigi design is drawn significantly different than how Mario is rendered in 3D, even though his actual design is the same. 2D artwork is fine if it matches what the character looks like in Smash and there is no preferable 3D equivalent (hence the Pokémon examples).
In terms of the Koopaling art, I don't think the Bowser Jr.'s Journey art would've worked even if it were in higher resolution, since it does not represent what the characters look like in Smash very well. The NSMBU artwork is a preferable compromise, even though it depicts them using items they don't have in Smash, because the designs are otherwise the most faithful to what the characters look like in Smash. DryKirby64 (talk) 22:01, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Actually, someone had tried updating Mario's to match his "NSMBU Deluxe" art, like Luigi, but was reverted back to "Odyssey" as Cappy is part of his taunts, which was a "better" match. Or at least, that was the reason given in that situation.

Also, there is nothing wrong with 2D vs 3D, as long as there are no elements present in the design that arn't present in Smash. Which is why Marth and Lyn don't use their Warriors art, despite being (their only) 3D art, as they have elements on them not present in Smash.

If using 3D art/models was preferred over 2D art in general, then the Pokemon like Pikachu, Lucario, Gardevoir and Snivy would be using their Pokkén Tournament art, wouldn't they? Wolff (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2019 (EST)

The Pokkén Tournament designs differ from the mainline designs because of the distressingly realistic detail they're given, whereas the Smash models are much more stylized. I'm referring more to examples like Toon Link and Ghirahim using artwork from Hyrule Warriors. In those cases, although the 2D artwork is still acceptable, the 3D artwork is closer to the models, so it's still a preferable choice. Likewise, we generally try to avoid using art from Fire Emblem Heroes, since the designs in Heroes are heavily up to each artist's interpretation. (Tiki is the exception, and one I'd dispute, since the model is more or less directly based on Awakening.) You do have to put a bit of thought into what artwork you select, and whether updating it is 100% necessary. DryKirby64 (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Actually, the Hyrule Warriors art is used because that is the most recent appearances of those characters. Wolff (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Missed this, but

Cappy has a page because he's a Mii hat, not because he's a taunt character. Navi shouldn't really have a page, if you ask me. Aidan, the Irish Rurouni 11:18, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Really? But wasn't Cappy given a page before he was revealed to even revealed to be a Mii hat though? Wolff (talk) 14:44, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

His page was made originally because some people thought Spirit characters deserved pages (which they don't). It was kept only because it was found out that he was a Mii hat. Aidan, the Irish Rurouni 17:44, March 13, 2019 (EDT)

Could you tell me...

...why we need the images of Gen I/II/so on sprites and artwork on Pokeball Pokemon pages? I'm asking because you're the one who uploaded most of them and added them to the respective Pokemon articles. Readers get a good idea of what a Pokemon looks like based on the image in their infobox, with the exceptions being the playable Pokemon like Mewtwo. Especially for Pokemon like Electrode, whose appearances don't really change, I think the extra images are unnecessary and clutter the already anemic pages. I'm in the process of removing the images and tagging them for deletion but I wanted to run it by you to see if you convince me why we need them. Blue Ninjakoopa 22:26, April 9, 2019 (EDT)

That was quite awhile ago. From what was told to me (which was a different discussion from awhile ago) it was decided that the original artwork for the Pokemon from Gens 1 & 2 are acceptable. Especially since some of their designs from Gens 1 & 2 differ from how they appear now (as well as in art style, like Pikachu and Bellossom). At the time, it was not sure if a Pokemon's in game sprite should also appear, at least in the cases for Gens 1 & 2. I am still unsure if the sprites need to be deleted. I was told I would be notified when a decision was reached about the sprites, but I do not think I was ever told what the decision regarding that was. I believe the sprites are not necessary, aside from the Alolan forms perhaps, but I am still unsure about that.

In a nutshell: the original art is acceptable to have on the pages. The sprites I am not sure as of now, but probably not for at least those in Gens 1 & 2. Hope this helped! Wolff (talk) 22:45, April 9, 2019 (EDT)

Okay then, I will stop removing the artwork. Sprites however I don't think are necessary. Thanks for getting back to me. Blue Ninjakoopa 22:48, April 9, 2019 (EDT)

Your welcome! Also (just repeating what was told to me), in the future, if you are ever unsure with a decision, like you seemed to be with removing the art, take it to a talk page first before going though with it. It lessens the possibility of needing to clean up afterwards. Wolff (talk) 22:55, April 9, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah sorry about that. Old habits die hard (I'm quite rash when it comes to stuff like this). I hope we didn't get off on the wrong foot! Blue Ninjakoopa 23:00, April 9, 2019 (EDT)