User:DrakRoar/SSBU tumble hitstun

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Note before reading: this page refers to this hitstun, and not hitlag which Nintendo thought was a brilliant idea to name hitstun.

It's already known that tumble hitstun has been decreased in Ultimate, but there's still no way to exactly determine it. The formula Ruben originally posted ended up being wrong, based on in-game testing from several people, and the real formula hasn't been found ever since, likely because it now seems to correlate to the also-undetermined balloon knockback.

For reference, and to have an idea of how much overall hitstun moves inflict in Ultimate at tumble percents while the formula is not discovered yet, I've made a table for the hitstun caused by Mario's up aerial (which has the same knockback as in Smash 4) on Marth (because he doesn't get the gravity boost) at various percents, and compared it to the hitstun it would cause in Smash 4, starting from where it first causes tumble and ending at the closest percent right before it KOs. The hitstun cancel windows for air dodging and aerials are included as well.

Target's percent Knockback Smash 4 Ultimate Difference
Standard Airdodge Aerial Standard Airdodge Aerial
45% 80.853684 32 31 -1
47% 82.644211 33 32 -1
50% 85.33 34 32 -2
53% 88.015789 35 33 -2
56% 90.701579 36 33 -3
59% 93.387368 37 34 -3
61% 95.177895 38 34 -4
64% 97.863684 39 34 -5
67% 100.549474 40 35 -5
70% 103.235263 41 40 41 35 -6 / -5 / -6
72% 105.025789 42 40 42 36 -6 / -4 / -6
75% 107.711579 43 40 43 36 -7 / -4 / -7
78% 110.397368 44 40 44 37 -7 / -3 / -7
81% 113.083158 45 40 45 37 -8 / -3 / -8
83% 114.873684 46 40 45 37 -9 / -3 / -8
86% 117.559474 47 40 45 37 -10 / -3 / -8
89% 120.245263 48 40 45 38 -10 / -2 / -7
92% 122.931053 49 40 45 38 -11 / -2 / -7
95% 125.616842 50 40 45 38 -12 / -2 / -7
98% 128.302632 51 40 45 39 -12 / -1 / -6
100% 130.093158 52 40 45 39 -13 / -1 / -6
103% 132.778947 53 40 45 40 -13 / 0 / -5
106% 135.464737 54 40 45 40 -14 / 0 / -5
109% 138.150526 55 40 45 40 -15 / 0 / -5
112% 140.836316 56 40 45 40 -16 / 0 / -5
114% 142.626842 57 40 45 41 40 41 -16 / 0 / -4
117% 145.312632 58 40 47 41 40 41 -17 / 0 / -6
120% 147.998421 59 40 48 42 40 42 -17 / 0 / -6
123% 150.684211 60 40 50 42 40 42 -18 / 0 / -8
126% 153.37 61 42 52 42 40 42 -19 / -2 / -10
129% 156.055789 62 43 53 43 40 43 -19 / -3 / -10
131% 157.846316 63 44 54 43 40 43 -20 / -4 / -11
134% 160.532105 64 46 56 43 40 43 -21 / -6 / -13
137% 163.217895 65 47 57 44 40 44 -21 / -7 / -13
139% 165.008421 66 49 58 44 40 44 -22 / -9 / -14
142% 167.694211 67 50 60 44 40 44 -23 / -10 / -16
145% 170.38 68 52 62 45 40 45 -23 / -12 / -17
148% 173.065789 69 53 63 45 40 45 -24 / -13 / -18
151% 175.751579 70 55 65 45 40 45 -25 / -15 / -20
153% 177.542105 71 56 66 46 40 45 -25 / -16 / -21
156% 180.227895 72 57 67 46 40 45 -26 / -17 / -22
159% 182.913684 73 59 69 46 40 45 -27 / -19 / -24
162% 185.599474 74 61 70 47 40 45 -27 / -21 / -25
165% 188.285263 75 62 72 47 40 45 -28 / -22 / -27
167% 190.075789 76 63 73 47 40 45 -29 / -23 / -28
170% 192.761579 77 65 75 48 40 46 -29 / -25 / -29
173% 195.447368 78 66 76 48 40 47 -30 / -26 / -29
176% 198.133158 79 68 78 48 40 48 -31 / -28 / -30
200% 219.619474 87 81 87 53 48 53 -34 / -33 / -34

Conclusion[edit]

Hitstun decreases more compared to Smash 4 the higher the knockback inflicted is. This seems to be done not to intentionally worsen combos, but as a result of the balloon knockback (faster initial launch speed and decay as knockback increases); characters would be forced to fall for too long at high knockback values if hitstun was unchanged. Particularly harsh reductions also only happen at knockback where it's nearly impossible to combo characters either way, since they are sent too far; in other cases, the reduction is by only a few frames with hitstun canceling taken into account, which are easily compensated by characters' faster movement speeds (horizontal mobility, jumpsquat, and jump rising speed), lower landing lag, and decreased ending lag on some crucial combo moves.

Overall, while hitstun is lower, combos in Ultimate are not worse than in Smash 4; if anything, the severe nerfs to air dodges and increased overall damage (due to the 1v1 multiplier) grant more opportunities to set them up, and higher reward for doing so.