Talk:Dark Samus (SSBU)

Unlockability status

Do we know for sure that Dark Samus will be unlocked separately? Samus will of course be a starter character, but we don’t know for sure whether Echo characters will be unlocked alongside the originals. I asked the same question in the Discord chat, and there was also some debate there. So is there enough uncertainty that we should list Dark Samus’s status as unknown, or can we safely say she’s unlockable? Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 13:20, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Urk I dunno. I mean, Sakurai is treating the Echoes as fully unique characters in most aspects (separate pages on the site, counted separately in the total fighter count, etc.) and Dark Samus is clearly not one of the Original Twelve. But they also (can) share a roster spot. So... I guess unknown. TheNuttyOne 13:22, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Bump as a busy day winds down. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 16:18, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

If she ain't the original 8; I'd say unlockable. Unowninator (talk) 16:23, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

We don't know for sure so I'd say Unknown. 50.226.222.35 17:51, 15 September 2018 (EDT)

Like Unowninator said, if she's not part of the Original 8, she's an unlockable character, not a starter character. Speed48 17:54, 15 September 2018 (EDT)

It, or She.

The Smash Bros. website is listing Dark Samus as 'it'. Perhaps we should edit the page to reflect that. Blackbrass (talk) 07:18, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

I'd say leave it at she. I'll go check MetroidWiki just to be sure though.72.133.91.93 08:47, 17 August 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

Just checked M Wiki, she's officially female. Also, someone ought to go put some Ultimate stuff on that wiki, most of the related pages I've been to (ZSS, Dark Samus, Ridley, etc.) have not acknowledged it at all.72.133.91.93 08:50, 17 August 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

For clarity for anyone who's interested, all English scan data relating to Dark Samus in Metroid Prime 2 and 3, and supplementary materials for those games, and Dark Samus's previous Smash trophies, use she/her pronouns for the character. Although the website and Twitter post use it pronouns this once, it seems like even NoA's promotional materials for SSBU aren't sticking to that - the official Tumblr post, for example, avoids pronouns entirely. I suspect the usage of "it" is a simple error. Miles (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

As I said on Talk:Dark Samus, I believe we should wait until Ultimate is released before we declare its stance on Dark Samus's gender. After all, this blog post might not reflect the final game. --PeabodySam (talk) 00:05, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

Can I recommend it get mentioned that she seems to have mutated with 1 eye in her visor as seen in the loading screen while Samus has 2 eyes?

As of today, Dark Samus's entry on the blog has changed. It now refers to her with female pronouns. Proof--190.124.77.154 20:26, 1 October 2018 (EDT)

Sure, but we already decided that blog posts are not the final word. Let the released game and her trophy make the final word. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 21:11, 1 October 2018 (EDT)

Double jump and charge shot.

Double jump doesn’t cause Dark Samus to somersault. Charge Shot also causes her arm cannon to splinter into Phazon tendrils. I’m away from my desktop so I can’t edit these details in right now. Can someone do that? DatAlphaLion (talk) 11:58, 25 October 2018 (EDT)

Dark Samus is "floatier"?

This is a discussion that hasn't had a conclusive answer for the two months following Dark Samus's unveiling, as close observation showed her to have the same statistical attributes as Samus, leading to the belief that the "floatier" statement was referring to the animations. Has there been proof that Dark Samus is statistically floatier in recent footage? Or is the current information on the page just speculatory again?

Faster Acceleration?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aCZrQiLmEU&t=6m43s Samus and Dark Samus somehow got different results on the speed test in this video. We know they have the same speed, but he claims there's a difference in acceleration that puts Dark Samus ahead. Is this a reliable testing method? Can anyone verify or refute his claims? NuFace (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2018 (EST)

So I see that a note on Dark Samus' ground acceleration was added, but did that ever actually receive any further testing? I had Samus and Damus run side by side a few times in Training Mode and they seemed to keep pace with one another. The results in the video above might've been caused by outside factors. I've heard that certain sections of Big Blue are faster or slower than others, but I can't confirm that.

EDIT:Forgot to mention, maybe some extra detail is warranted on the projectile release height differences considering it lets Dark Samus do this. https://twitter.com/myr_quiK/status/1076799567016935425 I guess Samus' might be slightly better for catching jumps or something? NuFace (talk) 07:53, 29 December 2018 (EST)

Found a video with comparisons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDyA2U4lgDA According to this, our listed information on rolls might be slightly off and there are hurtbox differences that we missed. I don't know what to make of the information on dash dance and I think the superior down tilt stun falls into the already listed fire vs. electric effect difference, though maybe more detail should be added there.

Organization of the "Difference from Samus" from Samus section

An edit war won't get us anywhere so I'm bringing this here so we can have a vote and reach a final consensus. I don't think the nature of how Dark Samus' changes are coded is relevant to how they're listed on her page. They should be organized separately like any other set of changes. Furthermore, I don't believe we generally have a "Miscellaneous" section on character pages, so the choice seems stylistically incongruous. Removing mention of this information from the initial summary of the section to refer to her only as "virtually identical in function" also doesn't seem very logical. Regardless of how small the changes between them are, any functional change is enough to render her no longer "identical" by definition.

The preceding statements also apply to edits I've seen made on the pages for other Echo Fighters, namely Richter and Daisy, but the matter is prominent on this page. NuFace (talk) 13:41, 12 January 2019 (EST)

Inversion performance is different

Look at this. They apparently seem to have different performances. Details are summarized in this site.

http://smashwiki.info/%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A0%E3%82%B9_(SP)

https://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm34562900

--210.229.77.193 13:26, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I'm honestly not well versed enough in the technical side of Smash to be able to say exactly what causes this or how to reproduce it, but it's definitely worth a look at. Is turn around momentum a thing? There doesn't seem to be any mention of anything like it on the Turn or Dash pages

Wow, they've done some pretty rigorous analysis over there in Japan. Check out the Simon and Richter section. Apparently they've got minor vertical/horizontal hurtbox differences akin to Peach and Daisy. NuFace (talk) 00:03, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Please see here.It is put together so that you can understand with only images.

http://smashwiki.info/%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A0%E3%82%B9_(SP)#.E9.81.8B.E5.8B.95.E6.8A.80.E8.83.BD

This difference seems to have a big influence on the moving speed and the reach of attack, too.--210.229.77.193 06:04, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Sorry, but I think you'll want to get someone more knowledgeable than me on this case. NuFace (talk) 22:40, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Due to page protection, these differences are ignored.

When Dark Samus Turn from Dash, the moving distance becomes shorter.

The difference of Turn brings about a big difference in the reach of Forward aerial and Back aerial.

When Dark Samus performs Dash from Turn, the shield will be delayed by 3F.

Despite this large difference being shown, why is not that content described? Are they watching the talk page?--Kaiju (talk) 08:10, 27 February 2019 (EST)

This is not the only difference.

Dark Samus is strong against attacks with low height.

When Dark Samus performs run from Turn, move a little faster.

Dark Samus jumps slightly higher than Samus.

Dark Samus' dash attack is slow in movement and susceptible to counterattacks.

Up smash of Dark Samus may remove the third attack.

Up smash of Samus may remove the last attack.

We should also describe these differences.--Kaiju (talk) 08:38, 27 February 2019 (EST)

How has this not been added yet? Lou Cena (talk) 11:36, 9 March 2019 (EST)

A lot of these seem like the result of general deviation, animations slightly altering things unintentionally or human error. For instance the higher jump appears to simply be an illusion caused by DS's different animation affecting interactions with walled ledges slightly. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 11:42, 9 March 2019 (EST)

While many of these changes are probably unintentional and caused by the difference in animations, and ones like the jump are probably something of an illusion, the recently removed forward-smash and up-smash differences are well-documented and do have a tangible effect on gameplay. The lower charge shot for Dark Samus is also caused by the animation difference, but it does affect gameplay and allow the charge shot to hit lower opponents, including a wider variety of opponents when hanging on a ledge. These differences aren't significant or intentional, but they do exist and they do affect certain matchups, albeit circumstantially. Diem (talk) 13:53, 11 March 2019 (EDT)

Thank you to the person who read this.The height of the jump is as you say. However, it is one of the differences that affect gameplay.The other differences are also clearly present. Even if it is a human mistake, it affects gameplay.It is not good reason to intentionally hide it.Besides, I think the impact on Forward aerial and Back aerial is quite large. It is not a trivial matter.But why is the difference between forward-smash and up-smash gone away? Is this site properly managed?It looks as if this site is badly dealing with Echo Fighter.--Kaiju (talk) 03:13, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

Unlisted 3.0.0 changes to Z-air and Charge Shot shield stun

So the changelog in 3.0.0 listed the small nerf to shield damage, but there were two unlisted changes discovered afterwards.

First is the change to Z-air, which is no longer as "noodley" as it was before and is now more linear and solid:

2.0.2 Z-air: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118749927952273409

3.0.0 Z-air: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118750186732490753

Also, either as a coincidence or consequence of the shield damage nerf, Charge Shot now actually does more shield stun, despite doing less damage.

2.0.2 Full CS damage and shield stun: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118752377941712896

3.0.0 Full CS damage and shield stun: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118753007020191744

2.0.2 3/4 CS damage and shield stun: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118747595810254848

3.0.0 3/4 CS damage and shield stun: https://twitter.com/KayJay_EU/status/1118747724524998656

These changes would obviously apply to Samus as well. Diem (talk) 13:10, April 22, 2019 (EDT)

The Z-air visual glitch has been fixed as of 3.1.0.

The tether beam no longer detaches from Dark Samus' model if she uses it right before hitting the ground. Hoopderscotch (talk) 14:21, May 31, 2019 (EDT)

Classic Mode in trivia

On the trivia section, Luigi in his Waluigi-based costume fighting against the three opponents is not entirely based off Super Paper Mario. Dark Samus and Luigi fighting against Mario, Peach and Daisy was supposed to reference Mario Tennis Aces. In Mario Tennis Aces's Adventure Mode, Mario, Peach, Daisy were attempting to free Luigi who was under Lucien's control. Overall, that battle round was referencing Mario Tennis Aces. Derekblue1 (talk) 01:47, June 3, 2019 (EDT)

I realized that all characters costumes are referencing their possessed alter-ego. Dark Samus and Luigi's opponents also reference Mario Tennis Aces. Derekblue1 (talk) 05:18, June 6, 2019 (EDT)

All differences between Samus and Dark Samus.

As an Echo Fighter of Samus, Dark Samus' moveset and abilites, such as jump height, damage output and running speed, are virtually identical to Samus. However, she has many basic animations that are different from Samus, a more standard roll which does not involve turning into a Morph Ball, electric effects instead of fire effects for most of Samus's fire-based moves, and different models for both the Morph Ball and Missile. However, Dark Samus's small advantages over Samus (such as a slightly faster roll) are considered to be less situational than Samus's small advantages over Dark Samus (such as the ability to detonate enemy bombs with her flame properties, or a smaller hurtbox after rolling). These are among several other gameplay differences that can arise, though they are so marginal that it is ultimately up to preference over which character to choose from.

Aesthetics

• As with all other Echo Fighters, Dark Samus has different taunts and victory animations.
• Dark Samus has a different victory theme, shared with Ridley.
• Dark Samus' on-screen appearance has her warp onto the stage from a dark portal.
• Dark Samus has many animations that are different from Samus, which extends to her idle, walking, dashing, jumping double jumping, perfect shield, and dodge animations. Additionally, these animations visually appear floatier than Samus's equivalents.
• Dark Samus' idle stances and animations are different, even when holding a light item.
• Many basic animations are unique from Samus, including all walking and dashing animations, jumping animations, perfect shield, dodging, and walking whilst shooting.
• Dark Samus's arm cannon splits apart and grows Phazon tendrils for some moves, such as her grab, Missiles, forward smash, and Final Smash. The effect colors correspond with her costume.
• Dark Samus's Arm Cannon-based attacks like down tilt, up smash and forward aerial use dark and neon blue clouds instead of orange explosions.
• As part of her design, Dark Samus lacks certain props such as jet boosters.

Attributes

• Dark Samus initial dash lasts for a longer period of time (10-12 -> 10-15)
• Samus' moves that possess flame effects (except for Missile and Bomb) have been changed into electric effects for Dark Samus, with hitlag modifiers to compensate.
• Dark Samus' shield size is slightly larger than Samus's (11 → 11.7) to compensate for her shielding animation being different, as she assumes a more upright stance. However this also results in her shield granting better coverage against some attacks.
  • Dark Samus doesn't transform into the Morph Ball when rolling or spin while jumping.
• Both of Dark Samus' rolls have less ending lag than Samus' (FAF 35 → 32 (forward), 40 → 37 (back)).
  • However, Dark Samus is more vulnerable during ending lag due to her larger hurtboxes when rolling.
  • Dark Samus cannot roll past small gaps in custom stages without using Bomb due to the larger hurtboxes
• Many of Dark Samus' ledge grab hurtboxes are different from Samus.

Ground attacks

• Dark Samus's dash attack has an altered animation where Dark Samus hovers in midair. Additionally, Dark Samus does not use her jet boosters during the animation.
• All of Dark Samus's smash attacks have altered animations.
  • This slightly influences the horizontal reach of all versions of forward smash, with the unangled version having marginally less horizontal reach, while the up and down angled versions have marginally increased horizontal reach.
  • This allows up smash to hit shorter opponents more reliably than Samus's version.

Special moves

• Missiles and Bomb have unique models, which have a more organic appearance.

• Screw Attack:
  • Dark Samus has a different animation when she lands with the move.
• Charge Shot:
  • Charge Shot is mostly black and dark blue, with tendrils extending from the edges.
  • Dark Samus fires Charge Shot with one hand, instead of two hands. This change is reflected in Kirby's animations aswell.
  • Dark Samus fires her Charge Shot at a slightly lower elevation, due to an altered animation
    • This allows Charge Shot to hit low profiling opponents more easily, such as a crouching Pichu or Pikachu hanging from the ledge.
    • However, this makes it slightly easier for opponents to jump over her projectiles.
• Missile
  • Dark Samus fires Missile in a more upright stance.
  • Dark Samus fires Super Missile in a more alien-like, deformed manner than Samus.
• Phazon Laser:
  • It is mostly black and dark blue, as opposed to white and light blue.
  • The Final Smash meter deals slightly more knockback (0.988x -> 0.989x normal Smash Ball variant)
  • Phazon Laser lacks the thruster hitboxes of Samus's equivalent Final Smash.

Mischallenous

• Dark Samus has a slightly larger hitbox when she is being shot off a barrel (3.85u -> 4.095u)

Feel free to use this new updated version of Dark Samus' differences from Samus --86.188.63.125 14:53, October 17, 2019 (EDT)

Autoconfirmed users and Administrators, listen!

When I look at fighter pages, they have something to say about their competitive metagame history. However, fighter pages like this don’t have that kind of paragraph. If anybody has done some research about Dark Samus’ competitive history, please write a paragraph about it in her competitive play section. SonDaniel (talk page) 17:13, April 7, 2020 (EDT)