Forum:Categorizing Special Moves

Forums: Index → Proposals → Categorizing Special Moves

For a while (probably ever since this Wiki's been around), many have argued upon how the special moves the playable characters should be categorized in pages. Some say to to do it by mechanics of the move or their users, others (like myself) say it should be by the name of the move.

Why do I think seperating them by mechanics is not a good idea? Some moves like Ike's, Greninja's, and Cloud's Final Smashes are very similar, if not the same mechanically. But it doesn't make sense to merge those together. Not counting those, if we just did it by mechanics, we'd be adding probably around 40 pages regarding special moves. Someone had suggested that all special moves, aside from the Echo Fighters, should have their own page, in other words, separate them by user. If we did that, we'd be making over 80 pages. It'd still be over 50 if you got rid of the Echo Fighters. With those in mind, we'd be separating them by mechanics or user.

Why do I think they should be separated by name? Because multiple characters share moves. Both Pikachu and Pichu have Volt Tackle, so it would make sense that for those moves to be on the same page. But what about moves like Bomb or Thunder? They have multiple characters who use them that are from different series. Then we'd separate those by series. Since Pikachu, Pichu, and Robin all use Thunder, that will be separated as "Thunder (Pokemon)" since two Pokemon use it, and "Thunder (Robin) since Robin is the only Fire Emblem character who uses it. In the case for Bombs, since Link, Young Link, Toon Link, and Samus use it, it will be separated as "Bomb (Link)" since multiple Links use it [or as "Bombs (Zelda)" since they are all from the Zelda series] and as "Bombs (Samus)" since Samus is the only Metroid character who uses it. With those in mind, we'd be separating both Name and Series.

Some games have moves that are able to be learned by multiple characters. Because of this, they are separated by the move itself. Things like execution usually depend on the character's individual stats, not the move itself. If there was more to the move, (like an extra mechanic that multiple moves apply to) it usually includes a link to the page where the move applies. I know the SmashWiki has its own rules which means it does not have to follow what other Wikis do, and that SmashWiki "not official" which means it’s not necessary to follow what Nintendo says in every circumstance. But I feel we need to find structure regarding this. Like I mentioned, the way to categorize the special moves have probably been discussed ever since this Wiki had been created. Numerous moves have been split, merged, re:split, and re:merged all for different reasons. I want to find a possible concrete solution for this that applies to the majority. Not specifically to myself, registered users, or even the admins. But one that would make sense for the majority to the people that come to the Wiki for information. Which is why I put this Proposal. When commenting, take your time and please do not support or oppose the ideas for yourself or a select few, but for the majority. Thank you. Wolff (talk) 17:03, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

If you really want a concrete answer on whether to split moves based on function, origin, or name, it’s a mix of both and there really isn’t a good answer that can satisfy all three. Wolf’s Blaster has a different name, but it’s entirely different otherwise. Same with Luigi’s Super Jump Punch. They should stay split. Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom have different names, but are exactly the same otherwise, even down to both of them having no real origin. Dr. Finale and Mario Finale also have no origin and are the same functionally. They should be merged. There are some outliers, such as Counter having different animations for all characters despite clearly being the same move with the same function, or Dream Town Hall and Dream Home having the same functionality and animation but are based on different buildings, and I’m not sure how to argue on those. Splitting moves based on Origin of game is a definite yes though, even regarding exact same functionality. For example, Aether and Soaring Slash are similar functionally, but they should stay split because Chrom isn’t in PoR and Ike isn’t in Awakening. Especially so since Chrom’s Final Smash is Awakening Aether, which is entirely different from Ike’s Aether despite having the same name. Lou Cena (talk) 18:12, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

A few things I've notice regrading what you said:

1. ) Aesthetics alone don't actually change game-play.
2. ) Wolf's Blaster does has the same name as Fox's and Falco's being "Blaster" within the game. Same case with Super Jump Punch.
3. ) Peach's Final Smash comes from Super Mario RPG, while Daisy's is based on Peach's Final Smash.
4. ) Great Aether is different from Awakening Aether as Great Aether is not a move available within the Fire Emblem series. Awakening Aether works more like a regular Aether.
5. ) In the case for Aether vs Awakening Aether in Smash, Aether is a regular special attack and not a Final Smash like Awakening Aether.
6. ) Soaring Slash is not a move within the Fire Emblem series either. Chrom is able to use "similar looking" moves in Fire Emblem Warriors.

Aside from these statements, why do you think it would be "easier" for the "majority of visitors" to the wiki to find the moves separated by mechanics (how the move works) instead of by name? Wolff (talk) 18:43, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

It’s not that it’s “easier”, but it’s less cluttered and more logical to separate moves based on function as well. I agree that in some cases, separation by name works, such as Soaring Slash and Omnislash, but in cases like Super Jump Punch, they function so differently that there’s no reason I’d want to see techniques and strategies of each others’ moves if I only want one of them. Lou Cena (talk) 19:37, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

I understand that you'd wouldn't want that. I am not asking how it would be on one page or not. I'm asking what would make more sense for people who don't know how this wiki works, and easier to find what they are looking. Not what would make things easier personally, I'm talking generally. Ever since this wiki started, the special moves keep getting re:split and re:merged because we do not have a concrete rule for them, and it is not out of the question to assume that in a few cases some people may wait for an undisclosed amount of time to pass just so they can try to re:split or re:merged again simply because they did not agree with the previous carried out conclusion. If I may ask, can you give some reasons why it would be better for people (generally, not personally) to find the moves based on its function instead of its name? I'm afraid your previous examples are not conveying your answer to me. Wolff (talk) 20:27, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Alright I'm just typing this so I can get a sense of how this is defined in a clear list, with some added points. Please tell me after you have thoroughly read it any changes you wish to see.

1. Mechanics do not factor how a move is merged or split in most cases. If they do it's for some very specific reasons, but generally a move having different mechanics won't effect it's merge status. It is instead based on other factors due to multiple moves having the exact same mechanics but would not make sense to be merged at all.
2. If 2 characters have a special with the same name they must have the qualities listed below in order to have a merge. If even 1 of these qualities is not true then they shall not be merged

1. They must be apart of the same series. If they aren't they are named according to character first then series (see Thunder for an example)
2. They must be used by the same input. This currently isn't an issue with any moves but let's say in the future there is a star fox character with a blaster set to side B. I feel since this is a different kind of move it should not be grouped into the other blasters

3. If a move used by a character in a previous game has had a name change but otherwise works the exact same, then it will stay merged with the original move.

• If a move on an echo is named differently but acts the exact same then it is also stayed merged. (See Daisy Blossom)

4. If a move is merged but has different mechanics, then those different mechanics will be explained in detail with each character having their own section dedicated to that character and the differences from the other versions of the move and it. (See User:Xtra3678/Blaster) This will help organize and keep techs that only work with one of the characters separate from the other characters so that someone won't find Falco techs when looking for information on wolf's blaster, as those would be in a different section. 5. If a merged move has custom moves and another merged move has customs as well, then each custom would be put in the same area but the information is mostly separate. (See Fireball or User:Xtra3678/Blaster)

With this I feel we have a clear well defined ruleset that makes sense. Please discuss under here some changes you wish to be made. If the changes get proper consensus I will change to rules to add that change. XtraTalk Edits 22:12, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Criteria 1, 2, and 3 are all pretty good. Criterion 5 is okay, but it may need some exceptions. Criterion 4 is not. I’ll say this a third time: Wolf’s Blaster has no resemblance whatsoever to Fox and Falco’s, and thise two also have throws and customs Wolf doesn’t have. It should not be merged under any circumstances. Ever. I removed Wolf’s blaster from the draft, and it looks much cleaner. Lou Cena (talk) 01:36, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

I mean, you should probably reread criteria 4 because I don't think it means what you think it does, but it's supposed to just make differences between moves more clear, your probably against criteria 1 which is what makes it so that wolf's special would be merged. I don't really know why you keep on insisting that wolf's blaster is nothing alike the others blasters, because that is just flat out not true. I think at this point you are just being ignorant to whatever anyone has to say, and are being quite toxic as well. I suggest you stop this kind of behavior. XtraTalk Edits 02:08, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

I feel like that explains quite well. Even regarding the case with Daisy. I wonder if some cases they could be "Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom are Peach and Daisy's Final Smash", then list "peaches for flowers will fall". Or "Palutena Bow and Sliver Bow are Pit and Dark Pit's neutral special", instead of mentioning the diffident name later. But it is named on the page as such ("Peach/Daisy Blossom", "Peach Blossom/Daisy Blossom") The names of the redirects show up, so don't think it wouldn't be confusing in that case. Wolff (talk) 22:59, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

DANGIT. when I said Daisy Blossom I meant Daisy bomber, but I guess that would also fit so I'm keeping it. FTR I feel that this should only be a echo rule and not a clone rule, so team star wolf stays. However that feels too weird so maybe we should just scrap that rule altogether. Or maybe make it not work for Final Smashes.XtraTalk Edits 23:05, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.