Forum:General proposals/Archive 5

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Former Mains for smasher pages

I'm for adding "former mains" parameters (for each game) to the Template:Infobox Smasher. For example Armada would have Pit as former main for Project M (right now Pit is in "other") and Mang0 would have Jigglypuff as former main for Melee (right now his Jiggs isn't there). I don't like both current options for former mains. Also, instead of solely text-based, which can get really long and have a lot of rows (just look at Armada's infobox), more symbols like a table with stock & game icons would be nice... Something like this:

	Current/Last	Other	Former

Patzui (talk) 08:32, May 9, 2019 (EDT)

I don't see the difference between "former mains" and the "other character" sections, especially since a lot of the "other characters" are former mains. Plus, if they were former mains, it would have been stated in their opening blurb somewhere. CookiesCreme 15:36, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

Changing PAL terms to “British English”

Smashbrosfan99 seems very adamant about changing this, but in my honest opinion, I think the way it is now is fine. PAL also refers to Castilian Spanish replacing Mexican Spanish, and regular French vs. Canadian French (if there even is any difference) so I think generalizing it as PAL is fine. Lou Cena (talk) 01:55, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Have to agree. Even if it's technically inaccurate terminology, it's effective shorthand for the European standard versus the American one. DryKirby64 (talk) 03:17, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Perhaps there could be a page that explains the difference, as well as why the Wiki uses "PAL" over "British English"? Wolff (talk) 03:22, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

This page goes over it briefly. DryKirby64 (talk) 03:32, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Then perhaps when PAL and NTSC are mentioned, they should probably link to those pages if they don't already. unfortunately, I don't think they explain the supposed problem of "PAL" vs "British English". Wolff (talk) 11:55, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Might as well unveil the elephants in the room - only the Nintendo 64, GameCube and Wii use the NTSC and PAL connections for their original releases so using those terms would make sense for those games. The 3DS, Wii U and Switch use HDMI connections, so stating NTSC or PAL to refer to releases in those countries would be not only inaccurate but also outdated as well. Aside from the 3DS and Wii U, the Switch is region-free, meaning any game from any country in any continent can work on the Nintendo Switch in question; also helps that most first-party games don't have a drastic change between the English in the Americas region setting and the English in the Europe or Australia/New Zealand setting. Apparently, using the term PAL region for the 3DS, Wii U and Switch games is perfectly acceptable at the moment when it isn't for everything I just described. It's even used for the pages that talk about Spirit Board events, when the pages in question are literally "websites," which, need I remind you, can be viewed literally "anywhere." So, what should we do? I have a few options, which were the same ones I used to figure out what to do on the Mario Wiki (sure different wikis have different rulesets, but hopefully we can come to an agreement):

1. Use the American and British terminology for everything.
2. Use NTSC and PAL when talking about Super Smash Bros. 64, Melee and Brawl and use the American and British English terminology for 3DS, Wii U and Ultimate.
3. Use NTSC and PAL for basically everything.

In my honest opinion, we should absolutely not consider doing choice 3. Going with choice 1 should simplify matters in the long run, almost choice 2 isn't a bad idea either. What do you guys think? – Smashbrosfan99 (talk) 19:37, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

I said something to this effect on you talkpage but I'll paraphase it here: Yes it's technically obsolete to use "PAL" in the sense of "regions that use the PAL technology". But players don't really use the term like that anymore, and in some ways they never have - its current place in the gamer lexicon is "the Europe/Africa/Oceania region". In fact, Wikipedia's page on the PAL region covers how the region is defined independently of its page on the PAL technology, specifically going over how the game industry uses the term; the page on regional lockout does very similar.

Therefore, because the internet at large is continuing to use NTSC and PAL for gaming regions, we should also continue to do so. Toomai Glittershine The Producer 20:29, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

I'm in agreement with Toomai. The gaming community still uses NTSC/PAL, as does much of the rest of the internet. Our terminology here should be based on what the Smash community uses; hence, NTSC/PAL should stay. DarkFox01This is horrible… 21:05, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Just found this now, but on the Substitute page, it mentions an error in the Wii U version but not the 3DS version in the European Portuguese version. It doesn't even use "PAL," it literally uses European Portuguese to describe it. All the more reasoning why the usage of NTSC and PAL should be limited to the first three Smash Bros. games...for the most part as these games often have different language options, so mentioning "This change is not present in the PAL version," seems to imply it isn't present in all language options, when we're really only focusing on the American and British differences of the English language only. – Smashbrosfan99 (talk) 23:59, May 7, 2019 (EDT)

Perhaps the accepted usage of NTSC and PAL is better when viewed as a type of "slang". Although "incorrect" or better yet, outdated, it is acceptable depending on its usage. PAL is considered a "term" (Term: "a word or expression that has an exact meaning in some uses or is limited to a subject or field"), in which it refers to the region of Europe, Asia (minus Japan), Africa, Australia and some of South America, while NTSC refers to the region of North America and small parts of South America and Asia. In English, its perfectly acceptable for people to use "don't" incorrectly. For example, the sentence "don't you think?" would actually be "do not you think?" What I'm getting at, NTSC/PAL have meanings other than what they originally meant or refer to. For games, they just mean refer to differences/changes in/from specific countries/regions. It does not just refer to differences between the U.S.A and England versions. (Extra Tidbit: Although their usage is less common now, they still teach the differences between PAL from NTSC in school/collage) Wolff (talk) 00:56, May 8, 2019 (EDT)

Honestly till reading this discussion i had no clue pal meant a video encoding technology, i just knew it as the Europe, Africa and Australia region. there is no reason to change it as the definition has basically shifted from a video encoding technology to a region.XtraTalk Edits 08:14, May 8, 2019 (EDT)

"Not to be confused with..."

This has been copied over from Template talk:Disambig2, as I realized the discussion belongs on this page.

Several pages currently have a disclaimer at the top of the page reading:

Not to be confused with [[X]], {{{descriptor of variation from X}}}.

There is currently no template used for such disclaimers. Variants of {{disambig2}} have been created in the past, including for and redirect. What should be the course of action for Not to be confused with...?

Possible solutions include:

• Replacing the Not to be confused with... cases with {{disambig2}} or {{for}}.
• Creating a new variant of {{disambig2}}, perhaps named {{confused}}, to deal with the cases.

Using pre-existing templates may provide additional clarity, but may also appear redundant in some cases. I'd appreciate the community's feedback on this issue before any action is taken. DarkFox01:D 21:18, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

This seems like a good idea, but it feels like it’s just going to be more work to change everything to the template instead of keeping it as is. It seems like you want future proofing, but we can’t really speculate about the future. Also, the regular disimbag template is more helpful in most situations in my opinion. The one situation where I can see this being helpful is with Galeem and Galleom. Lou Cena (talk) 22:24, May 4, 2019 (EDT)

Put tabbers in the quote sections for multiple games

I believe that articles with different quotes in multiple games, such as Pokémon Change and Fireball (the latter of which does actually use one), should have tabbers, as they look rather cluttered without. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 18:33, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

It looks neater with the tabs, since it takes up less physical space. I agree with this notion. Lou Cena (talk) 18:36, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

My problem with it is that it stands out and looks somewhat awkward when actually implemented. That doesn't mean that using quotes changes the issue, because having multiple quotes does also look awkward, however there's definitely a better idea for this other than tabber. CookiesCreme 18:39, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

The page looks really messy when it doesn't have the tabs. The tabs were already slowly being added since the beginning of last month without a problem before. If you believe there is a better substitute for the tabs, then unless that substitute is found/suggested, we should use the tabs. Without the tabs, the pages with multiple quotes (Like Pokemon Change or Counter) push the article down and makes it look messy. I don't know which one looks better (possibly the second for multiple characters), but it looks a lot more organized than just having all the quotes by themselves. (Unless someone thinks it'd be better if the quotes were on their own page) Wolff (talk) 23:03, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

How about we just not have stuff getting in the way of the opening paragraph? Put quotes down in their own content section on the page where they belong. Then we don't even need to mess around with tabs. Toomai Glittershine The Superlative 09:39, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

But wouldn't it still bloat the page that way? It would just be in a different spot, and the problem would still be present. Wolff (talk) 17:41, May 13, 2019 (EDT)

Very late from me, but in my opinion it's better for it to be bloated on the bottom of the page than the top of the page, since the introduction of the article wouldn't look as messy, plus properly formatting it on the botton won't make the page massively bloated anyways. CookiesCreme 12:23, June 8, 2019 (EDT)

Now that you mention it, I actually agree that it’s better to bloat the bottom than the top. The issue is where to put it exactly. Do we just make a section for the quotes? Lou Cena (talk) 13:20, June 8, 2019 (EDT)

Split all pages for moves that are shared between characters

I feel like this is the only way to end the debates. And by all, I mean ALL. Lucina's specials, Daisy’s, Chrom’s, the five counters. Split all of them, just so that we can have something consistent going on. Lou Cena (talk) 12:28, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

This is actually the wrong page for that. You're suppose to make a new proposal from here. That's what SerpentKing was referring to from before. And according to the rules, you are not suppose to restart a discussion that is ongoing somewhere else. You've already had been warned for doing that before. Wolff (talk) 18:29, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

I’m suggesting something different, which may not be appropriate for that page because it doesn’t relate to it. But you’re right. I’ll move this to its own page. Lou Cena (talk) 19:28, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

The idea you are suggesting "so that we can have something consistent going on", is technically already ongoing somewhere else and would technically go against the first rule. Wolff (talk) 19:33, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

Differences from... sections only for the official clones.

As the page suggest I think only the characters that are officially defined as clones should have "differences from" sections - to prevent bias and clear up confusion in circles. Particularly these characters.

		Luigi has a "differences from Mario" list on the website.
		Listed as model change characters by Sakurai himself.
	None
		Were balanced relative to original characters only.
		Nintendo put up a definition of echoes on their website.

--5.81.67.51 15:01, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

We have stated multiple times, no. CookiesCreme 15:29, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

"Frozen Rayman" rumor to be added?

I was on SmashBoards and I saw people bringing up the "frozen Rayman" rumor, but it wasn't on the List of rumors and I can't edit the page. I was wondering if it could be added.

"Frozen Rayman" rumor

On May 8, 2019, a tweet from Pouchabaka pointed out what appeared to be Rayman frozen in the ice on Battlefield. This led to speculation about the possibility of him joining the roster.

- Mega Mario Man (talk) 21:21, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

No this isn't really a rumor just a little illusion with battlefeilds textures. this is 100% not a rumor and i don't think many people seriously took it as a sign of rayman coming since its just a illusion XtraTalk Edits 07:23, June 6, 2019 (EDT)

Change R.OB.’s icons across the wiki to reflect his non-japanese default

We’re an english-speaking wiki. Aside from the Famicom colors not existing in Brawl (which doesn’t stretch out to later games outside of japanese, Chinese, or Korean languages in all games after that), or the highest quality version on SSB4’s website and the only one with his shadow is the Famicom colors (which doesn’t stretch out to Ultimate), there’s no reason to have R.O.B.’s icons use the japanese default. I did list two reasons, but neither of them apply to Ultimate, and if I’ll be honest, both are lackluster reasons when compared to the fact that new non-contributors may be confused as to why the “wrong” default costume is everywhere. Lou Cena (talk) 00:47, June 17, 2019 (EDT)

Hm, what do you mean by the Famicom colors not existing in Brawl? Both the Famicom and NES palettes are there, it's just that Famicom R.O.B. is the default. Either way, this has been discussed a bit before, though there really wasn't much of a conversation when SSB4 came out. The main reason as far as I'm aware is just for consistency with Brawl. On one hand, there isn't really anything preventing us from switching the default to NES R.O.B. other than tradition, but on the other, it's well-known that Famicom R.O.B. is the default in Japan anyway, so it's not like it feels like the "wrong" one. (It's mentioned in for Wii U and Ultimate as a tip, for one.) Plus, the consistency just looks nicer, I think. DryKirby64 (talk) 00:59, June 17, 2019 (EDT)

The “not existing” part was an unfortunate mistake. My point is that it doesn’t make sense to mainly showcase the japanese ROB if we’re an english wiki, regardless of what past games use. Lou Cena (talk) 02:28, June 17, 2019 (EDT)

Mii costume pages

An IP recently brought up whether Mii costumes should have pages. I have no opinion on this matter, but I just want to bring discussion about that over here before it clogs up Navi’s talk page. Lou Cena (talk) 23:19, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

SK did say what he said, but Miles, Disaster Flare, and I discussed with him the fact that we've had them since Smash 4's DLC. Aidan, the Rurouni 23:21, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

That it no reason not to fix an almost 5 year mistake. 172.58.173.88 23:33, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Fine then. You want us to play fair, at the very least, I will.

• Taunt characters have minor appearances, and, in the case of Navi, it's sometimes never explicitly stated to be the specific character. Characters who appear as taunts have less going for them than a character who appears as a Mii costume.
• With that said, characters who appear as taunts are also part of gameplay; I will fully concede this. They are, for all intents and purposes, as much a part of a character's appearance as a character in Smash as their alternate costumes are. A Mii costume should therefore be able to have a page, as should taunt characters.
• However, since both are such a minor appearance in the grand scheme of things, maybe the pages who are for characters who don't have a major appearance (such as an Assist Trophy or something else) should be deleted, since it's a minor appearance.

If we're absolutely playing it fair here, then I'm going to lean for the second option. Feel free to discuss. Aidan, the Rurouni 23:43, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

There isn’t a reason one can have over the other to have a page. I’d rather lean towards the taunt and mii costume characters, like Navi, Ribbon-Girl, Slime, and K.K. Slider, to have pages. I feel those appearances are MUCH MORE prominent then a trophy or spirit. Keep the Taunt and Mii costume characters’ pages. 172.58.173.88 23:55, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

I would say to keep them as appearing as a taunt or Mii costume does seem more notable when compared to background cameos or trophies. However, although I'd much rather like to keep them, I can still see them being deleted just as much. Wolff (talk) 11:29, July 2, 2019 (EDT)

Get rid of disambiguations for minor characters

We have a lot of disambiguation pages. And a lot of them are for a single character that's been spread between multiple trophy/sticker/spirit lists. I don't think a character who doesn't have a page here should have a disambiguation page. Especially not one that just links to lists where the character is present in. There shouldn't be an Amy Rose (disambiguation) when there's no actual Amy Rose page. If someone makes a recurring cameo in the Super Smash Bros. series, I think they should have a page on Smash Wiki. Or if they are just not relevant enough, maybe they should be deleted altogether. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:35, July 1, 2019 (EDT)

It's a tough spot because some characters are too minor to note in the context of Smash, but are major enough within their own series to warrant individual pages. At least from my experience, these disambiguation pages are mostly for the convenience of someone using the search engine to look for a particular character. For instance, someone who knows that Silver the Hedgehog appears in Smash, but doesn't recall where, can just type in "Silver the Hedgehog" and direct themselves to the proper appearance. For characters who only have one appearance (for example, Jingle), it just redirects to the sub-page that covers their appearance. I don't think it's the best solution, but getting rid of the disambiguation pages probably isn't a good approach either. ~ Serena Strawberry (talk) 19:43, July 1, 2019 (EDT)

They’ll still get results for characters like Silver and Amy just by searching their names, as long as their name are mentioned on a page. That would cover their cameos, trophies, stickers, and spirits. Because of that, the disambiguation pages doesn’t seem entirely necessary. Any page that have the same, or similar, names has a mention of it, or are suppose to, at the top of the page to avoid confusion. Being if those were actual pages. I think it would be necessary only if there was four or more pages that shared a name, not counting Final Destination and Battle Field. 47.199.39.81 19:57, July 1, 2019 (EDT)

I was always confused why some characters without pages tend to link back in on themselves when viewing their collectibles. (as in, they go back to the section of the page where I had just clicked the link) Shouldn't they just link to their respective wikis if possible? (or not at all) Their respective wikis already note their Smash appearances (Silver, Marin) so we don't really need to if we are not going to give them pages ourselves. Wolff (talk) 11:29, July 2, 2019 (EDT)

Here's an idea: How about each series could have a list of minor characters that have cameoed at least once in Smash but aren't relevant enough for their own articles? Like Amy Rose and Silver the Hedgehog can have their own sections in List of minor characters (Sonic series) and their names could redirect to their sections in the minor character list instead of the unnecessary disambiguations? It could be a similar thing that we did with List of minor universes and List of companies with minor representation. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:08, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

That’s good, but we don’t even need to make new pages either. We can just redirect all of them to Non-playable character. Lou Cena (talk) 02:07, July 9, 2019 (EDT)

Non-playable character doesn't exactly give any information on the characters who were just trophies, stickers and spirits. A user looking up Goron would not find him there. But if we make a List of minor characters (The Legend of Zelda series) and include a section for him, we could redirect Goron there. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:06, July 9, 2019 (EDT)