Forum:General proposals/Archive 3: Difference between revisions

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:'''Oppose'''. I don't think not having detailed change data would be any better than having it. The demo is a good way to forecast what changes will be in the final product, and we might as well keep track of them here since this is a good place to store data for competitive players. If any changes are made to the demo, we can just update them, and if someone puts in misinformation then others can correct it. [[User:Fitzpeter|Fitzpeter]] ([[User talk:Fitzpeter|talk]]) 23:01, 28 June 2018 (EDT)
:'''Oppose'''. I don't think not having detailed change data would be any better than having it. The demo is a good way to forecast what changes will be in the final product, and we might as well keep track of them here since this is a good place to store data for competitive players. If any changes are made to the demo, we can just update them, and if someone puts in misinformation then others can correct it. [[User:Fitzpeter|Fitzpeter]] ([[User talk:Fitzpeter|talk]]) 23:01, 28 June 2018 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''', it seems like by that logic we shouldn't have included any technical changes in SSB4 pages until the game was done being patched. If there are accurately measurable changes present in the E3 game, then why not list them, and amend anything that was changed when the game comes out. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 03:54, 29 June 2018 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''', it seems like by that logic we shouldn't have included any technical changes in SSB4 pages until the game was done being patched. If there are accurately measurable changes present in the E3 game, then why not list them, and amend anything that was changed when the game comes out. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 03:54, 29 June 2018 (EDT)
::Part of the problem is that we have a lot of people adding changes and notes based on counting frames seen in the demo videos. Which is fair enough, those videos are in 60fps, and it's how we obtain frame data for a lot of things. But, Sakurai himself said that there will likely be some major changes, and even now, we're having a few people add a lot of things based on circumstantial evidence rather than scientific methods. Remember, there are added variables with 1v1 games due to the damage being amped up - we just simply don't have enough evidence to justify adding everything we can.
::Furthermore, there is no implication that we shouldn't have waited until SSB4 stopped getting patches. If we did wait for that, we'd be waiting a long time due to the fact that nobody ever said that SSB4 would no longer be patched. We thought the game was done with getting patched before they updated to include the Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud amiibo. We should indeed stay up to date on the game as patches get released, but before the GAME is released, we're having notes added based on circumstantial evidence that is highly likely to change - and there will be a lot of change. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 04:31, 29 June 2018 (EDT)
::@Fitzpeter: As seen by the Mega Man down smash example or people who played Smash 4's E3 2014 demo claiming aerials there had a lot more landing lag, it's really not, and a lot of these values being put in have questionable authenticity to them (in the frame data counting, how do the people know there weren't any frame skips in the video or that the player acted as soon as they could, and how would one deduce a hitbox's size or actual knockback changes without being able to actually test the game?). Plus the game isn't even released yet, so there should be no rush to try getting specific frame data and the like down, no one is actually going to be able to utilize it.
::@Alex: By that point the game is actually released, we were actually playing the game, actually able to datamine and thoroughly test stuff to determine accurate values, and there's quite a difference between playing a demo that's 6+ months out from release where so much is liable to change and is clearly not meant to be the final product, and a balance patch that adjusts some values to some characters and are never guaranteed to actually happen. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 07:00, 29 June 2018 (EDT)

Revision as of 07:03, June 29, 2018

Forums: Index Proposals General proposals/Archive 3
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Add Order Numbers from Ultimate's E3 video to character pages

Something I feel should be considered, since it more or less covered every character bar a small handful, is adding an entry in the info-boxes of the character pages providing their number (including Echo/Epsilon numbers where relevant). The numbers were so extensive and were pointed specifically by Sakurai, despite mostly just being the order characters appeared in (which only makes sense from one game to the next, but maybe there's a second layer to decide ordering of characters there?), so I feel that adding them is a good idea, though that's only my opinion.

After all, if no further mention of the numbers is made, they can always be removed later. Thoughts? Wixelt (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

I disagree that they have any importance outside perhaps trivia. It was just a gimmick to showcase how all characters are returning. Toomai Glittershine ??? The Brass 18:56, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

Adding "Ultimate" as part of the stage game appearance section

I have already done this to a couple of pages, but before I continue, I would like to ask if it is okay to continue with this for all of the confirmed stages in Ultimate. I am aware that not everyone wants to know about stages or, more specifically, returning stages that are appearing in a title that has not been released yet. The main purpose of asking this is to make sure that it is okay to label these familiar stages as coming to Ultimate, knowing that some people would prefer not to know until its release. Runwaymadness55 (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2018 (EDT)

If your only concern is giving away spoilers, don't let it stop you from adding info to our pages. SmashWiki is not spoiler-safe. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 01:55, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Gender-neutral writing

I've noticed there's been a bit of a flurry of edits lately regarding pronoun usage for characters with multiple genders (Wii Fit Trainer, Inkling, et al). The current style is using the pronouns of the default choice (so Robin uses male pronouns and Wii Fit Trainer uses female pronouns, for example). While I agree that the entries should probably be rewritten to be more gender-neutral, I think we should use the singular they rather than "(s)he", "his/her", etc. This would make the writing less clunky in comparison while still maintaining neutrality. Any thoughts? DryKirby64 (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

I'm on Team Keep-it-as-is. It's undeniable that there is a "default" gender for nearly all characters with multiple gender options, and it is also equally undeniable that "they" still carries a strong connotation of plurality that makes pages just that much clunkier to write. Should we also include multiple profile pictures for fighters? What about Bowser Jr., whose default form is a completely different character than the other options? Do we write his article in gender neutral language to reflect that? It seems like a lot of work that just doesn't have to be done. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution." 21:45, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
The way Bowser Jr. is written about usually refers to him alone, with the Koopalings mentioned in plural as needed. They're undeniably separate characters, whereas Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, etc. have alternate genders for the same character. It's worth noting that the official wording is inconsistent; some trophies are written specifically reference the character's gender, like Robin's or Wii Fit Trainer's, while others go out of their way to write gender-neutrally, such as their Final Smash trophies and Corrin's trophies. The loading screen tips for these characters are all gender-neutral, as well. However, none of them use the singular they. There's probably not an elegant gender-neutral solution, so I'm not opposed to keeping it as-is; anything is better than "his/her". DryKirby64 (talk) 22:07, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
You're right about there being no elegant gender-neutral solution, which was likely why the wiki has the policy it has now. In Japanese, there are better nongendered pronouns than we have in English, so it would make sense for the people translating the loading screen tips and trophy info using gender neutral language. We on the wiki, however, are cataloging a lot more information, and readability is very important here. The official material may not be consistent, but we should be as often as we can. So we have to make a choice: be more accurate or be easier to read. It's a small trade-off, and I don't think the small amount of accuracy gained would be worth the loss and the effort. Toymaker's Creation VelEye.png "Thank you for your contribution."
Oppose, as per Toymaker. Plus, I also think that using either style of pronoun (they, his/her or [s]he) would impact the readability of each page. Plus, although this is probably a bad oppose reason - there's the many instances each character is talked about on other pages. Do you want to be going through all those and changing them? And will those chances retain the readability of each page? I think not. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 21:56, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
There's no need to change it. If we ignore all other concerns that gender-neutral pronouns bring such as readability, it eventually boils down to "is referring to X as 'they' absolutely necessary? If so, does that warrant appropriate changes to every character with multiple gender options?" it's been agreed that this isn't the case, and hasn't been since the rule was conceived 4 years ago. Unless more future cases show up that require the rule to be clarified (i.e. a new char. with gender variations is announced), this shouldn't be discussed again. Also, regarding how the official games handle these characters gender-wise, remember SmashWiki isn't official, so not all (in)consistencies from official sources regarding gender or w/e should be followed by the book. Nokii (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2018 (EDT)

Stop putting in frame data/damage values/etc. in Smash Ultimate's Changes sections

I noticed in the Changes sections on character pages, people are writing down changes about frame data/move speed, damage and knockback values, hitbox alterations, launch trajectories, all that specific move detail. A reminder that what we seen at E3 was just a demo and is not fully reflective of the released game; first we don't even know how old the demo was (stuff we seen may have already been outdated), and farther balance adjustments are going to be made. All these values are extremely liable to be altered by the actual released game (remember the Smash 4 E3 2013 demo match where Mega Man's down smash was multi-hitting and dealt over 40% uncharged?), and putting such values in now are misleading readers on how they will be in the released game. As such, any changes about these sort of details should be scrubbed from the character pages and kept off until we actually have the released game in our hands. Keep the changes limited to actual new moves, animations, and mechanical changes (e.g. a move no longer making a character helpless), stuff that will realistically not be changing by release. Omega Tyrant TyranitarMS.png 23:18, 27 June 2018 (EDT)

This also goes for such changes seen in any of the trailers, those are footage from old versions of the game (with even some pretty apparent bugs seen like Lemmy's face disappearing in the roster reveal trailer) and a lot of the frame data observed is just as liable to be changed by the release version. Omega Tyrant TyranitarMS.png 23:34, 27 June 2018 (EDT)
Support. Completely agree with you. Additionally, some people aren't even taking the increased damage in 1v1s into account when they list damage changes (not to mention it appears to not apply under certain conditions, and even this might change in the final game), and knockback changes are harder to determine with the new launch speed. 034.png DracoRex, Creator of the Land 23:40, 27 June 2018 (EDT)
Support. It was mentioned also on the first Nintendo Treehouse demo by Sakurai that those things "may" change in the future, which as shown in the past means they probably will change. [1] Unknown the Hedgehog (talk) 23:43, 27 June 2018 (EDT)
Support. I don't even think anything more even needs to be said. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 00:59, 28 June 2018 (EDT)
Oppose. I don't think not having detailed change data would be any better than having it. The demo is a good way to forecast what changes will be in the final product, and we might as well keep track of them here since this is a good place to store data for competitive players. If any changes are made to the demo, we can just update them, and if someone puts in misinformation then others can correct it. Fitzpeter (talk) 23:01, 28 June 2018 (EDT)
Oppose, it seems like by that logic we shouldn't have included any technical changes in SSB4 pages until the game was done being patched. If there are accurately measurable changes present in the E3 game, then why not list them, and amend anything that was changed when the game comes out. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 03:54, 29 June 2018 (EDT)
Part of the problem is that we have a lot of people adding changes and notes based on counting frames seen in the demo videos. Which is fair enough, those videos are in 60fps, and it's how we obtain frame data for a lot of things. But, Sakurai himself said that there will likely be some major changes, and even now, we're having a few people add a lot of things based on circumstantial evidence rather than scientific methods. Remember, there are added variables with 1v1 games due to the damage being amped up - we just simply don't have enough evidence to justify adding everything we can.
Furthermore, there is no implication that we shouldn't have waited until SSB4 stopped getting patches. If we did wait for that, we'd be waiting a long time due to the fact that nobody ever said that SSB4 would no longer be patched. We thought the game was done with getting patched before they updated to include the Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud amiibo. We should indeed stay up to date on the game as patches get released, but before the GAME is released, we're having notes added based on circumstantial evidence that is highly likely to change - and there will be a lot of change. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the internets go! :3 04:31, 29 June 2018 (EDT)
@Fitzpeter: As seen by the Mega Man down smash example or people who played Smash 4's E3 2014 demo claiming aerials there had a lot more landing lag, it's really not, and a lot of these values being put in have questionable authenticity to them (in the frame data counting, how do the people know there weren't any frame skips in the video or that the player acted as soon as they could, and how would one deduce a hitbox's size or actual knockback changes without being able to actually test the game?). Plus the game isn't even released yet, so there should be no rush to try getting specific frame data and the like down, no one is actually going to be able to utilize it.
@Alex: By that point the game is actually released, we were actually playing the game, actually able to datamine and thoroughly test stuff to determine accurate values, and there's quite a difference between playing a demo that's 6+ months out from release where so much is liable to change and is clearly not meant to be the final product, and a balance patch that adjusts some values to some characters and are never guaranteed to actually happen. Omega Tyrant TyranitarMS.png 07:00, 29 June 2018 (EDT)