Forum:Final Smash that you think needs to be changed
Yeah, you know it by the title. Since best FS has been talked, now it's the worst!So, what yours? I think Volt Tackle need to be changed...Kirbythe 
Amazing 22:08, 16 March 2011 (EDT)
- Kirby's final smash is by far the worst in the game. Extremely low knockback, rarely killing a single character, poor range, and often gives poor items. Mr. Anon (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2011 (EDT)
- I would contend Donkey Kong's is worse. Kirby's still KOs at the 75% range, so extremely low knockback is an exaggeration, and its range is decent as well. Plus if in range, precise timing is needed to avoid it. DK's on the other hand, may not even kill at 150% with the strongest hitboxes of the attack. And with DK just in the same place, moving to one of the stage to completely avoid it is possible on a large amount of stages. Not to mention that if you screw up timing, DK's final smash becomes near useless. Overall, each wave does light damage, have above average knockback at its strongest even for just a normal attack, and are relatively easy to dodge unless cramped.
- I'll also say the Ice Climbers have a worse final smash, as while Kirby's can accomplish something, theirs never kills, does mediocre damage, and disrupts them too from fighting properly. Even its trophy recognises it as a terrible final smash. Omega Tyrant
23:51, 16 March 2011 (EDT)
- Ice Climbers barely have any use for their Final Smash, which may end up saving the opponent and screwing your recovery as the Ice Climbers. MegaTron1XD
00:04, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Ice Climbers final smash may be bad, but when an opponent has just spawned it can be used to gain some easy damage to score a KO, ROB's final smash is powerful and can rack up damage but once and opponent is knocked away from the strong hit of ROB's Diffusion Beam, an opponent can easily evade the rest of the final smash because of ROB's average running speed, average air speed and floatiness.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
04:18, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Depends on the stage. Most stages, unless you're one of the few characters who could camp offstage, such as MK or Jigglypuff, you won't have the room to escape R.O.B. If you're on Temple however, or any stage that allows circle camping, you could evade it with ease. Oh, and R.O.B.'s dashing speed is actually slightly above average, so he can outrun a large amount of the cast. Omega Tyrant 04:34, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Most characters with a slow dashing speed have a great air speed, except for a few (Ganondorf etc...) which could outrun ROB. Another bad final smash that hasn't been mentioned yet would be Jigglypuff's, almost everyone can evade this final smash, only on small maps is it useful unless it is in the air because anyone can grab a ledge.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 05:10, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Not really, and you're overestimating how fast characters go with their air speed. Even Jigglypuff's air speed wouldn't overtake R.O.B.'s dashing speed, and you're not factoring in that characters can't stay in the air indefinitely. So no, those characters would be overtaken by a dashing R.O.B. with his final smash if they even had the stage room to possibly evade the entire final smash through running away. Omega Tyrant 05:28, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- There is dodges. dodges can be used to evade Diffusion Beam as well, also if a character did jump into the air and a ROB were to follow, the character's fast fall will land faster than ROB's except a few characters, there are many ways to evade the Diffusion Beam including simple tether recoveries.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 05:46, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- No, the dodges wouldn't be able to evade well at all. With his final smash producing a continuously lasting hitbox, once the character's invincibility frames go away, they'll be getting damaged by his final smash. If the character jumps, R.O.B. can wait for them to land, then they will be getting hit again. And tethers would be terrible, R.O.B. can simply jump down facing the stage, and end up stage spiking the characters trying to use their tether to plank. His floatiness and up b will also aid in this as well.
- There is dodges. dodges can be used to evade Diffusion Beam as well, also if a character did jump into the air and a ROB were to follow, the character's fast fall will land faster than ROB's except a few characters, there are many ways to evade the Diffusion Beam including simple tether recoveries.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- Not really, and you're overestimating how fast characters go with their air speed. Even Jigglypuff's air speed wouldn't overtake R.O.B.'s dashing speed, and you're not factoring in that characters can't stay in the air indefinitely. So no, those characters would be overtaken by a dashing R.O.B. with his final smash if they even had the stage room to possibly evade the entire final smash through running away. Omega Tyrant
- Most characters with a slow dashing speed have a great air speed, except for a few (Ganondorf etc...) which could outrun ROB. Another bad final smash that hasn't been mentioned yet would be Jigglypuff's, almost everyone can evade this final smash, only on small maps is it useful unless it is in the air because anyone can grab a ledge.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- Depends on the stage. Most stages, unless you're one of the few characters who could camp offstage, such as MK or Jigglypuff, you won't have the room to escape R.O.B. If you're on Temple however, or any stage that allows circle camping, you could evade it with ease. Oh, and R.O.B.'s dashing speed is actually slightly above average, so he can outrun a large amount of the cast. Omega Tyrant
- Ice Climbers final smash may be bad, but when an opponent has just spawned it can be used to gain some easy damage to score a KO, ROB's final smash is powerful and can rack up damage but once and opponent is knocked away from the strong hit of ROB's Diffusion Beam, an opponent can easily evade the rest of the final smash because of ROB's average running speed, average air speed and floatiness.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- Ice Climbers barely have any use for their Final Smash, which may end up saving the opponent and screwing your recovery as the Ice Climbers. MegaTron1XD
- I'll also say the Ice Climbers have a worse final smash, as while Kirby's can accomplish something, theirs never kills, does mediocre damage, and disrupts them too from fighting properly. Even its trophy recognises it as a terrible final smash. Omega Tyrant
- R.O.B.'s Diffusion Beam is without a doubt, one of the most difficult final smashes to evade completely, and I don't see how you could argue against it. Omega Tyrant 06:00, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- The Wiki page here on Diffusion Beam even says that it is one of the most easily avoided final smashes in the game, the beam can be perfect sheilded than rolled out of, the beam is almost useless in the air except for one character i have found it very effective against which is Samus, any character that has a Zair as well as an up B recovery can avoid the whole final smash by edge hogging and rising up to the stage if the ROB pursues the character off the stage, anyone who can stay in the air for long (except samus) by floatiness or multiple jumps can avoid the final smash by air dodging and grabbing a ledge to restore jumps and anyone who has a fast running speed can avoid the final smash by running, camping than repeat. Most of Brawls characters fit into these catagories which make the final smash very hard to use.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 06:22, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Uhm, so one person inserting an opinion in our articles without us catching it makes it factual? No it does not sir. You keep forgetting that the hitbox is continuous, R.O.B. can pursue, is not a slow character, and most stages are on the small side (so outrunning R.O.B. is not viable in most stages). Unless you're MK, Jigglypuff, or Sonic (via abusing Homing Attack under the stage), R.O.B. is going to outlast you if you attempt to go offstage on him, he has the tools to do so, being floaty and having an amazing up b that would allow him to pursue easily. For the situation of perfect shielding, after the character rolls, R.O.B. can easily follow, and his continuous hitbox will trap the opponent once the invincibility frames wear off.
- The Wiki page here on Diffusion Beam even says that it is one of the most easily avoided final smashes in the game, the beam can be perfect sheilded than rolled out of, the beam is almost useless in the air except for one character i have found it very effective against which is Samus, any character that has a Zair as well as an up B recovery can avoid the whole final smash by edge hogging and rising up to the stage if the ROB pursues the character off the stage, anyone who can stay in the air for long (except samus) by floatiness or multiple jumps can avoid the final smash by air dodging and grabbing a ledge to restore jumps and anyone who has a fast running speed can avoid the final smash by running, camping than repeat. Most of Brawls characters fit into these catagories which make the final smash very hard to use.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- R.O.B.'s Diffusion Beam is without a doubt, one of the most difficult final smashes to evade completely, and I don't see how you could argue against it. Omega Tyrant
- There's a reason why R.O.B.'s final smash is often considered among the best, and that is mostly due to being one of the most difficult final smashes to evade. Omega Tyrant 06:36, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- The fact that the opinion was not changed or discussed from any user who had visited the page makes it seem that the opinion of the Diffusion Beam is shared throughout the smash community. ROB certainly isn't a slow character but he certainly isn't a fast one either, catching characters is a hard thing to do with his floatiness and small hitbox in comparison to other characters final smashes, his Robo Burner is a very bad way to try to catch an opponent due to the physics change he undergoes, he becomes slow, momentum has to be built up to actually move at a moderate speed and he can no longer fast-fall, all these points make it hard for ROB to chase a character that is camping at a ledge before they can get back onto the stage. If a character rolls away after a perfect sheild they easily have enough time to run away from ROB before he can catch up and although the hitbox is continuous when the bigger hitbox hits a character away at low percent it gives the character another chance to evade the final smash again.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 07:09, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- With some final smashes, you need to evade once, and it misses. With some others, once the character uses their final smash, they are safe spots that if you get to, you evade their final smash completely. With R.O.B.'s, you don't have that. There are no safe spots, and you have a full 10 seconds you need to avoid R.O.B. Now explain to me how R.O.B.'s is possibly easier to avoid than these final smashes? Fact is, it is not. If a character perfect shields and rolls away, R.O.B. has more than enough speed to catch up, and that hitbox is going to be there to greet the unfortunate character when their invicibilty frames wear off. I don't get how you think this would allow the character to escape :/ The only who could possibly have a fast enough and far reaching enough roll to do that would be Lucario, but R.O.B travels faster than him so he would catch up anyway. And characters can't get off the ledge instantly, and you know what that continuous hitbox going to do? Wreck the character once their invincibility frames wear off.
- The fact that the opinion was not changed or discussed from any user who had visited the page makes it seem that the opinion of the Diffusion Beam is shared throughout the smash community. ROB certainly isn't a slow character but he certainly isn't a fast one either, catching characters is a hard thing to do with his floatiness and small hitbox in comparison to other characters final smashes, his Robo Burner is a very bad way to try to catch an opponent due to the physics change he undergoes, he becomes slow, momentum has to be built up to actually move at a moderate speed and he can no longer fast-fall, all these points make it hard for ROB to chase a character that is camping at a ledge before they can get back onto the stage. If a character rolls away after a perfect sheild they easily have enough time to run away from ROB before he can catch up and although the hitbox is continuous when the bigger hitbox hits a character away at low percent it gives the character another chance to evade the final smash again.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- There's a reason why R.O.B.'s final smash is often considered among the best, and that is mostly due to being one of the most difficult final smashes to evade. Omega Tyrant
- It's no argument, R.O.B's is one of the most difficult final smashes to evade, I assure you majority would agree. And are you familiar with EVO 2008? It had a controversial Brawl tournament with items on, where in the finals, CPU, a R.O.B. main, defeated Ken. How CPU won was through the use of R.O.B.'s final smash. Now, with Marth being one of the fastest characters in the hands of Ken, if Diffusion Beam was so easy to evade, shouldn't Ken had still won the match regardless of CPU getting the smash ball? Omega Tyrant 07:27, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- There is a difference between someone learning how to utilise their main characters final smash and someone utilising their optimum way to dodge it, i would say Ken did not think to train himself to dodge ROB's final smash for a tournament. Anyway if a ROB is stationary and has caught a character in his Diffusion Beam and that character perfect shields it then rolls away from ROB there is enough time to escape, even if a human reacts very quickly, that said there are characters like Samus who have a difficulty in roll distance or time and cannot evade the beam.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 07:57, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- There is a difference between someone learning how to utilise their main characters final smash and someone utilising their optimum way to dodge it, i would say Ken did not think to train himself to dodge ROB's final smash for a tournament. Anyway if a ROB is stationary and has caught a character in his Diffusion Beam and that character perfect shields it then rolls away from ROB there is enough time to escape, even if a human reacts very quickly, that said there are characters like Samus who have a difficulty in roll distance or time and cannot evade the beam.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
- It's no argument, R.O.B's is one of the most difficult final smashes to evade, I assure you majority would agree. And are you familiar with EVO 2008? It had a controversial Brawl tournament with items on, where in the finals, CPU, a R.O.B. main, defeated Ken. How CPU won was through the use of R.O.B.'s final smash. Now, with Marth being one of the fastest characters in the hands of Ken, if Diffusion Beam was so easy to evade, shouldn't Ken had still won the match regardless of CPU getting the smash ball? Omega Tyrant
Uhm, of course it's going to be simple to evade if R.O.B. is stationary :/ The thing is, R.O.B. is not going to be standing stationary to begin with, so that argument fails. And while you claim Ken lost because "he didn't think to train himself to evade it", wouldn't he not have to if R.O.B.'s final smash was as easy and simple to evade as you make it out to be? Just admit it, it's not among the easiest, and you didn't address the point I brought up comparing it to other final smashes. Omega Tyrant 
08:08, 17 March 2011 (EDT)
- Are you guys done yet? This argument already took even more than a half of this page! Can we talk about another Final Smashes? There's more than 30 Final Smash left!Kirbythe
Amazing 04:38, 18 March 2011 (EDT)
Ness and Lucas' final smashes should be their signature moves from their respective games. Falco and Wolf should have a non-cloned final smash. --204.191.140.144 13:40, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
Now, the fum part! Because the title is "Final Smash that you think needs to be changed", now it's your turn to tell everyone about the Final Smash you think by yourself! So, because I'd say if Mario Finale needs to be changed, I will say if Mario's Final Smash better changed by my pure 100% thinking Final Smash, Super Mario! Mario will go big like his up taunt (if I'm wrong tell me), then charge and run toward the direction he faces, pushing opponent in his way to the blast line! He has a same speed as Wario-Man's Bike! It's just pushing, so he does no damage! Kirbythe Amazing 19:26, 21 March 2011 (EDT)
- Umm, you mean Mega Mario? I'm thinking more like Crash kirby instead of Cook kirby, and Mach tornado (The bigger version)instead of galaxia darkness, and Pikmin army(similar like Waddle dee army) instead of End of DayLucasthefourth PK Thunder!!
02:20, 22 March 2011 (EDT)
yeah crash kirby instead of cook kirby would have been a much better idea, plus i think rob could have gotten a better final smash--kyle.b talk 12:32, 24 March 2011 (EDT)
- Hey, wait a minute! If Kirby's FS crash kirby, how can opponent escape from it?Kirbythe Amazing 22:49, 25 March 2011 (EDT)
- Simply, Crash kirby is like... Upside-down PK Starstorm, but slower, smaller, but a lot.Lucasthefourth PK Thunder!! 00:36, 26 March 2011 (EDT)
- Okay, now the next topic. Pikmin is too weak for attacking enemy by their own! Waddle Dee/Doo can't be attacked if summoned using Waddle Dee Throw, that's why they (still) can't be attacked in Waddle Dee Army! Pikmin? Nah, and where will they come from?Kirbythe Amazing 05:16, 27 March 2011 (EDT)
- Probably underground, and pikmin can be stronger than you thought, you know.Lucasthefourth PK Thunder!! 09:26, 28 March 2011 (EDT)
- Probably underground, and pikmin can be stronger than you thought, you know.Lucasthefourth PK Thunder!!
- Okay, now the next topic. Pikmin is too weak for attacking enemy by their own! Waddle Dee/Doo can't be attacked if summoned using Waddle Dee Throw, that's why they (still) can't be attacked in Waddle Dee Army! Pikmin? Nah, and where will they come from?Kirbythe
- Simply, Crash kirby is like... Upside-down PK Starstorm, but slower, smaller, but a lot.Lucasthefourth PK Thunder!!
waddle dees and waddle doos are weak as hell, but when king ddd uses his final smash, there damn powerful, so who says pikman cant be strong--kyle.b talk 12:20, 28 March 2011 (EDT)
Falco says he prefers the air, and he's one of my best characters and deserves a reward. Give him the Arwing for a Final Smash instead, and forget the Landmaster. Brawlingbrian
LANDMASTER! 20:54, 2 April 2011 (EDT)
I'd like to see ROB's FS Changed. It's only half as useful on larger stages as it is on smaller ones, and I've always had trouble getting the KO with it. --Spenstar (talk) 21:03, 2 April 2011 (EDT)
Hey, I think Brawlingbrian is right! 3 same FS? Okay, there's a minor difference between 'em, but can't they made a totally different FS? I can't imagined if there's Fox, Falco, and Wolf fighting, and the only FS appeared only Landmaster! An Arwing looks cool, maybe by shooting Smart Bombs that have controls like Snake's FS, that will explode in contact with floor or wall ar opponent! Sounds cool! 206.53.152.103 04:41, 5 April 2011 (EDT)
umm, what about Peach's final smash? it's not effective, and yet it's easy to dodge it if you're using floating-in-the-air characters. Why not making her use her Vibes? you know, in Super princess peach, where she have 4 vibes and the most extreme one is the red one -Rage vibe- and it makes peach invincible, burning, scary (with red eyes, freaky) but slow. 3 other vibes is Joy, Gloom, and Calm. Gloom makes peach cries so hard that it makes earthquakes and make peach on top speed. Joy makes peach spins like tornado (similar to Tornado Kirby) and fly. Calm increase her health points slowly. Oh! What about combining them all! Peach becomes invincible in top speed, can fly and decrease her damage!... no it's not fair... even Super sonic isn't that crazyLucasthefourth PK Thunder!!
09:58, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
- I don't think that will work. Isn't those vibes can only used in Vibe Island? If she still have the Vibe until now, she will
be PMS all day!using it in Mario's game in the past!Kirbythe Amazing 00:00, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
Mario really needs a better final smash. What, a bad character with a bad final smash? That's a double-slap in the face. Mario's Final Smash needs to move faster, trap opponents better, be bigger, and the start-up time is reduced. Peach is also a not-so-good character with a bad final smash. :( 
Green Mario 02:23, 22 April 2011 (EDT)
if you ask me, I can easily avoid Jigglypuff's FS. --24.11.24.139 15:02, 21 May 2011 (EDT)
Ness and Lucas[edit]
As somebody mentioned, Ness and Lucas cannot learn PK Starstorm in their games. However, they can each learn a PSI move that is even stronger than Starstorm. Because it is named after the favorite thing that the player inputs at the beginning of the game, but for Ness the default name is Rockin and for Lucas it is Love. As such, Ness and Lucas' final smashes should be changed to PSI Rockin and PK Love respectively. Due the the way PSI animations work, Sakurai will have to use his imagination for how it would appear, but they'll come up with something. Mr. Anon (talk) 00:11, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
- Ain't Lucas' up smash supposed to resemble PK Love? I haven't played Mother 3, but I remember reading that? Omega Tyrant 09:16, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
- No, it is a reference to when Lucas pulls out one of the seven needles, it plays basically the same animation but has added some PK energy coming out of it, this animation is also one of Lucas' victory poses.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk 09:30, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
- No, it is a reference to when Lucas pulls out one of the seven needles, it plays basically the same animation but has added some PK energy coming out of it, this animation is also one of Lucas' victory poses.--Shaun's Wiji Dodo talk
