Forum:FF7 demo released in 1996. Should it count as Cloud's origin?

Forums: Index → Proposals → FF7 demo released in 1996. Should it count as Cloud's origin?

This proposed policy or guideline has failed to gain the approval of the community, and so has not been implemented. It remains for archival purposes.

On August 2nd, 1996, Tobal 1 was released for the PlayStation in Japan. Included with it was a disc titled, "Square's Preview Extra," which contained a playable demo of Final Fantasy VII. It allowed players to experience the bombing mission as Cloud, Barret, & Aerith. Should this be considered Cloud's game of origin?

I don't think there's any particular reason to. Miles (talk) 22:22, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Nah. After all, games have had demos prior to release (none I can think of right now) and we don't count those. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer (talk) 22:28, January 12, 2021 (EST)

Minecraft's alpha build is considered Steve's technical debut, and that's not too dissimilar from a demo. Perhaps this should get the same treatment? ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 02:34, January 13, 2021 (EST)

There is a definite difference between the first instance of a game which is designed around ongoing updates and a demo for a game that had a specific singular release date. Miles (talk) 03:39, January 13, 2021 (EST)

This was still a publicly released piece of software with a known release date. It absolutely marks Cloud's first appearance in a video game. Minecraft's alpha build is listed as Steve's technical debut, while the official release is his proper debut. This demo should be mentioned in the same way on Cloud's page for the sake of documentation. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 17:51, January 13, 2021 (EST)

Alright, let me explain. Minecraft's alpha and beta build weren't so much "demos" per se, but rather previews of a game in development. Demos are previews of a completed game. I really don't think we should count demos as first appearance. Alpha and beta versions aren't demos. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer (talk) 18:26, January 13, 2021 (EST)

In the case of this particular demo, the game was still in development. It was a different build, with some small changes in the events and several notable changes to the script.

Also, nothing would be lost if this were listed as a technical debut, as the official release would still be his official debut. As far as I've seen while researching the origins of the fighters, Cloud is the only one who is in a situation like this and that is interesting enough to be noted. It would be a strange omission. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 18:46, January 13, 2021 (EST)

A demo's a demo. Minecraft is an ongoing game that gets updates. That's the difference. Aidan, the Rurouni 19:07, January 13, 2021 (EST)

There's a similar case right now that Lip's debut (and Panel de Pon's first installment) is listed as a Satellaview "trial version" of Panel de Pon. You could argue this as precedence, but I don't believe it should count, either. We're looking only at specific, full-game releases. ~ StrawberryChan (talk) 19:22, January 13, 2021 (EST)

Demos, trials, and alphas should be listed as a technical debuts. That seems to be the purpose of the term. I think that the Satellaview trial should be a technical debut and the official release of Panel de Pon/Tetris Attack should be Lip's official debut, and Cloud should get the same treatment.

As a wiki, this website serves the purpose of amassing and documenting information in a concise, consumable manner. These demos and trials are truly the first appearances of the characters within pieces of interactive software and absolutely should be documented here. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 19:47, January 13, 2021 (EST)

I think this is one of those cases where, were we to follow your suggestion, would start us veering into pedantic literalism as opposed to stating facts in a more common sense fashion. I don't think that's a good idea in any capacity. Miles (talk) 19:50, January 13, 2021 (EST)

It would present as common sense if they were listed as technical debuts, which is what they are in a very literal sense. The site already uses that term and it works perfectly. Listing demos would be no more pedantic than listing Sonic's cameo in Rad Mobile or differentiating between the debuts Donkey Kong Sr. and Donkey Kong III. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 20:05, January 13, 2021 (EST)

Yeah, like, I'm already against listing "technical debuts" like "Luigi actually debuted in Mario Bros. for the Game & Watch!" and "Sonic actually debuted in Rad Mobile!" as part of the infoboxes rather than the obscure nuggets of trivia that they are. That was more a compromise to get the more pedantic people to stop changing them, and I really think we should just go with what is officially considered their debut rather than an early-bird appearance. ~ StrawberryChan (talk) 19:54, January 13, 2021 (EST)

But those are the debuts of the characters. This wiki should note them because they're relevant pieces of information and the wiki would be incomplete without them. As a virtual encyclopedia, a wiki is the place where it's appropriate to be pedantic. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 20:05, January 13, 2021 (EST)

Let's be clear. If somebody (somehow) didn't know what game Cloud was from, the infobox should immediately tell them "Final Fantasy VII, 1997". To go for the "well, actually" answer of a demo technically extant before FF7's retail release serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters on what is an otherwise self-obvious piece of information. You might personally find that demo's existence meaningful for this context, but I think it's thoroughly unnecessary to try and shoehorn a reference to it into the infobox. Miles (talk) 20:08, January 13, 2021 (EST)

It in no way would have to be "shoehorned" into the infobox. There is a widely used term for this kind of information, and it's, "technical debut." It would in no way detract from the fact that the release of Final Fantasy VII in 1997 was his official debut in a video game. It's simply a little-known piece of information that should be brought to light. It in no way would muddy the waters other than to state a fact: Cloud Strife was playable on the PlayStation nearly half a year before the full release of his debut game. That is indisputable and should be documented here. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2021 (EST)

I honestly don't consider demos full-fledged video games since they only exist to give players a taste as what the actual game would be like and build up the hype. For that reason, I don't believe any demos should be listed in the infoboxes. CookiesCreme 20:30, January 13, 2021 (EST)

To say that Cloud technically debuted in the demo of FFVII would be the same as trying to legitimately argue for Mike Wazowski's inclusion in Smash due to debuting in a video game before a movie. While I am not against noting a character appearing in another game before their most known/intended debut (including Luigi in G&W Mario Bros. and Sonic in Rad Mobile), that would require the character appearing in another game that was fully released before the initial debut. Aidan, the Rurouni 20:56, January 13, 2021 (EST)

The Mike Wazowski argument is incongruous to Cloud's situation. Cloud is already in Smash and, therefore, has a place on this wiki. Cloud's appearance in the demo is a piece of his history and should be noted. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 21:26, January 13, 2021 (EST)

It is not incongruous; Cloud having a place in Smash and Mike Wazowski not isn't the point I'm making, I'm pointing out that you're making an incredibly pedantic and literal argument that, frankly, no one else is agreeing with. Aidan, the Rurouni 12:58, January 14, 2021 (EST)

My argument is definitely literal, but is not "incredibly pedantic." I am stating a fact: Cloud Strife was playable in a piece of publicly released software before the release of Final Fantasy VII. That should be noted as a part of his history. I am honestly so confused about why everybody is so resistant to this. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 18:25, January 14, 2021 (EST)

There's a difference between a demo of an already completed game, and a game that, back then and now, is constantly getting updates. No reason to change Cloud's debut. Omegα Toαd, the Toαd Wαrrior. (BUP) 00:14, January 14, 2021 (EST)

Additionally, if we start adding demos as debut appearance, one could make a point that the same applies to commercial ads, trailers, technological showcases etc., because if we follow path of, as Miles described it, "pedantic literalism", it would make sense, since the reasoning for their inclusion on the same grounds as yours. And we are not going into this minefield. Superbound (talk) 03:57, January 14, 2021 (EST)

This demo is in an entirely different class from those though. It was a publicly released piece of interactive software; it is a video game. The things that you listed are not. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 18:25, January 14, 2021 (EST)

Enough. Many users have voiced their opinions and, other than the proposer, are unanimously opposed. I'm closing this. Miles (talk) 18:36, January 14, 2021 (EST)

That's disappointing. I was excited to contribute to this community because video game history is a passion of mine. I understand that the community has spoken, but I want to make my piece one final time. Then I'll be done.

The demo itself was released as a piece of an unfinished game, but "Square's Preview Extra" was a completed piece of software, released to the public on a specific date. Within it, Cloud Strife made his debut to the realm of video games nearly six months before the date currently listed on this wiki. Neglecting that leaves the documentation of the character incomplete, and now knowingly so.

I believe that I have deftly deconstructed the arguments of my dissenters and made a case worth your consideration through polite discourse. There was much talk of, "setting precedent," throughout said discourse, and a precedent has been set - one of omission of information for the sake of convenience. Is that really a tradition that you would like to set?

I hope that you will reconsider. ThisIsNotACryForHelp (talk) 18:59, January 14, 2021 (EST)