Talk:List of spirits (disambiguation)/Archive 1

Images
As more and more images of Spirits are being uploaded onto SmashWiki, it's probably best if we nip this in the bud as soon as we can.

What kind of images should we use for the Spirit list pages? Should we stick entirely to images taken directly from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (including the November Direct, the website, etc.)? Or should we upload the highest quality version of an image, preferably directly from the source?

For example: for List of spirits (Pokémon series), which Charmander image should we use?

I'd say that we should use the original artwork where available. After all, we can already see in footage that Spirits use the full artwork in-game, instead of only using cropped images such as the one seen to the left. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2018 (EST)

I disagree, i upload these images to proof that they are in the game, if we are just doing the artwork people can fake the artwork to add their own spirits that are not in the game like the final fantasy one. So to make sure that people know it's in the game i rather add crops of the actual image from smash ultimate. Hope you understand. BroskiPlays (talk 23:34, 7 November 2018 (EST)


 * That's fine for now, but I'm thinking long-term. Once the game is out and anyone can check if a particular spirit is in the game, then having screenshots won't be necessary as proof. Even now, we have an odd hodgepodge of PNGs from the website combined with screenshots from the Direct; it looks messy, and it would have to be addressed anyway since SmashWiki likes consistency.


 * What I'd recommend is that we provide a citation (November Direct, website, etc.) for any pre-release spirits, since that would be the most effective way of showing where a particular spirit has been confirmed. That way, we can use high-quality art now without having to replace it later on. --PeabodySam (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2018 (EST)


 * I was thinking about doing it like how sticker pages did it, but they didn't have pictures. As such, I agree with PeabodySam here, long term we should use their original artwork, unless of course the spirits themselves become available at high quality, in which case we should use those instead. SugarCookie420 (talk) 19:23, 7 November 2018 (EST)


 * Bumping this topic again. Friendly reminder that we now have about 700 confirmed spirits. This is going to need to be addressed at some point. --PeabodySam (talk) 22:21, 23 November 2018 (EST)
 * We should rip the spirit images from the game IMO, we don't really need the original images. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 19:14, 24 November 2018 (EST)

When the game comes out, are we taking screenshots of the Spirits' for the lists instead of their original art? I'm asking because Kyogre and Cloud are currently using the actual art instead of a screenshot from Ultimate like most others. &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2018 (EST)


 * Nyargleblargle is suggesting that we just rip the full artwork of the spirits themselves when the game is released. Screenshots of the cards won't be needed anymore once anyone can easily find proof that these spirits are in the game, and all the information in these cards (type, class, and slots) will be provided by the articles' tables. --PeabodySam (talk) 10:58, 1 December 2018 (EST)


 * I think it'd make more sense to use of their Spirit card from Ultimate. Some characters like Madam Butterfly only has her face of her original art in the card, and others like the Legendary Birds have more than one character in them. Using the Spirit card would be easier than trying to edit out the background in the case of multiple character Spirits. Besides, we use the Smash art for the Stickers despite them using pre-existing art from their series of origin. And looking at Charmander's example, I feel it looks better (and less misleading in some cases) to use the Spirits card instead of the original art. &#32;Wolff (talk) 15:02, 1 December 2018 (EST)


 * Just to point out, we don't have to edit out any backgrounds; we just need to rip the artwork, which is even easier than having to take a screenshot of every single card. It's probably already been done before by dataminers; SmashWiki is just (rightfully so) waiting for the game to be released before uploading any ripped content from Ultimate. The stickers are likewise ripped straight from Brawl, as far as I know. --PeabodySam (talk) 18:22, 1 December 2018 (EST)


 * But wouldn't there be two types of ripped artwork then? The full image and the Spirit card? If that does end up being the case, then which would we probably end up using? &#32;Wolff (talk) 18:41, 1 December 2018 (EST)


 * The full image. There are already a few that have been uploaded today, so it looks like that's the direction we're heading anyways. Like I said, the information on the Spirit card would be redundant because it's already presented in the wiki's tables, so it would be more beneficial to have the full artwork. --PeabodySam (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2018 (EST)

I think the spirit card more appropriate, this will make the list neater. and have stats in images, very intuitive and facilitate.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2018 (EST)


 * Come to think of it, do Fighter Spirits and Master Spirits even have cards? If not, then it would look inconsistent to have some cards and some full images. Better to be consistent and have full images for all of them. --PeabodySam (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * True. However, if the full image is being used, it may look redundant or out of place to include them on a character's page (Dixie for example: She uses her most recent art oin her info box, which is currently the same as the one used for her spirit). If we add them to their pages, like stickers, should they have an image of their card (apart from the fighters), or should we add the full image in a similar manner to the stickers where there in a box of sorts? I feel the card would make more sense (of those who have them) if we add them to their pages. (Just to clarify: I'm talking about adding a new image where it's the Spirit card added to their individual pages) &#32;Wolff (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Convincing, and some Spirits are different from the original artwork, it can't make out form the card, so complete artwork is necessary.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 00:26, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 * I mean adding the card (if it has one) so it does not conflict with it original if it is being used on the character's page. Aside from the text, it would probably look like someone just added the original art. This is only if we were/are going to include the Spirits on their pages like (,if not exactly like,) stickers. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:41, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 * The character's page content should more detailed than the list, so should use complete artwork.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 02:01, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 * In that case, Spirits should be added in the same way that (or one that resembles the way) stickers are added to the pages. &#32;Wolff (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Wholeheartedly support using the full rips as they appear in-game, as currently seen on the Castlevania spirit list page. Miles ( talk)  18:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 * In case their is any confusion, I'm talking about an image of the Spirits on a "character's" page, not a "list of Spirits" page. (Like my Dixie example) I say this as it may look out of place if we where to add them like any other picture. So, we should add them to a character's page in a similar manner to how we add stickers to them. &#32;Wolff (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Origin
On a related note to the above topic, should we identify spirits by the origin of their debut, or by the origin of their artwork? For example, would we identify Pandora's origin as Kid Icarus (her debut) or Kid Icarus Uprising (the specific origin of her spirit's artwork)?

Each side comes with pros and cons:
 * Identifying the debut is more informative about the character represented by the spirit. For the Pokemon series, it also helps identify generation, since most artwork will probably be from Dream World/Global Link.
 * Identifying the artwork source is more informative about the specific version of the character represented by the spirit. Since this is more concrete, it also helps in cases where a character's debut may be debatable or if there are different incarnations of a particular character, especially in the Zelda series (for example, Impa made her debut in the manual of TLoZ, but her spirit represents her OoT incarnation).

I will point out that, if we use stickers as precedence, they are identified by origin of the artwork. That's currently where I stand in this. --PeabodySam (talk) 16:21, 9 November 2018 (EST)
 * I feel like we should identify where the artwork came from, and not the origin of debut, because the design of some characters change drastically as games progress, Palutena being a good example. However, it is pretty hard to identify some artwork, since it is possible for artwork to have little to no change as a series progress.
 * A separate idea I have is just to name their home series, it eliminates the trouble to identify the exact game; another idea is that we wait until Ultimate comes out, as the spirits may have backgrounds on their origin games. SugarCookie420 (talk) 17:59, 9 November 2018 (EST)


 * I was wondering this as well-like when I saw Impa as well as Waluigi. While Impa I can understand as there are multiple Impas (surprised they don't have old Impa as she is the most common and the most recent-but she isn't the most known). As for Waluigi-it is his Strikers design. So yeah...(Who knows they might have multiple designs for characters-we don't know how many spirits there are, there could very easily be hundreds and hundreds) Collateralshrek (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2018 (EST)


 * I just noticed there are 2 Skull Kid ones, so yeah I guess there are mutliple ones. Which another case would be Andross-the AT is from the SNES Star Fox, which is indeed his first appearance. Which I remember seeing him listed earlier, but is no longer here. But if he is in it (which I'm sure he is), there could be a case of needing to put Star Fox 64 instead. Collateralshrek (talk) 18:57, 9 November 2018 (EST)

Another case is on the F-Zero spirits-most of them are from F-Zero X (as only 4 characters debuted in F-Zero), but they are all (but one) listed as F-Zero GX characters as that is the model they used, considering that is the most recent (or rather last main title) that is expected. But that does seem to be yet another case on here! Collateralshrek (talk) 20:28, 13 November 2018 (EST)

I would like to bump this topic, and I agree we should go by origin game rather than picture source.  Voqéo T  09:31, 20 November 2018 (EST)


 * Perhaps a compromise would be best? The table can be updated to include both the origins of the subject and the artwork. It could solve this issue on both fronts. --PeabodySam (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2018 (EST)


 * I've demonstrated this compromise in my recent edit to List of spirits (Metroid series). The origin game is listed first, and if the artwork is from a different game, it is listed below in parentheses. Any thoughts? --PeabodySam (talk) 18:32, 23 November 2018 (EST)
 * I think we're heading in the right direction with this, but there's no indication whatsoever letting users know what the game inside the parenthesis means. Pokebub (talk) 10:13, 25 November 2018 (EST)

I really think that we should include both origin game and origin of the artwork. I just have no idea how to go about it as the template is already pretty big. Maybe the "Origin Game" section can be split into two? One for origin game and the other for artwork origin. Pokebub (talk) 10:13, 25 November 2018 (EST)


 * I agree that a separate column for artwork origin would be optimal, but also run the risk of cluttering the table. In an attempt to address the lack of indication, I've tested adding "Artwork:" to the parentheses. Do you think this would work better? --PeabodySam (talk) 22:17, 25 November 2018 (EST)


 * Maybe we can separate spirit datas and spirit battles datas.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 04:32, 26 November 2018 (EST)

Capitalization
All the articles on the wiki have Spirit/Spirits capitalized, when talking about the characters as well as the mode, but all the list articles have a lowercase s in "List of spirits." I think we should move all the articles to have an uppercase S. SuperFalconBros (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2018 (EST)
 * The pages for lists of trophies and stickers are not capitalized, which is why spirits are not. Spirits themselves probably shouldn't be capitalized either; only the mode itself would be (if it's presented that way ingame). Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Victorious 20:32, 13 November 2018 (EST)

According to Game Informer the number of spirits is 448 that is known so far, but..
Yeah we have 502, granted some of them like FLUDD are on here (which I'm not sure if these are even used towards the actual count as I think I counted more then 39 spirits on the Mario page), so where are all the other names coming from? (Someone else edited another page with 448)

This popped up on Youtube a couple hours ago btw, so I doubt 64 Spirits were just added in the process. We might want to count some of the pages with large number of spirits as well (like the Mario and Pokemon ones) to see if we actually got the right number listed.

Collateralshrek (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2018 (EST)
 * Assuming you're talking about this video from GameXplain, if you look at our lists, even counting out the more dubious ones (those with no images, and the ones using these online avatar thingies seen during the Lobbies section of the Direct), there are a few that are not present in said video, such as Meta Ridley. They also point out in this very video that some spirits are unknown. I'm pretty sure 448 is just meant to be the number they found themselves. It's not really relevant anyways since this number is temporary and will only be definitive after the game launches and every spirit has been collected and reported on the wiki. Ponyshment   PonyshmentSignature.png  23:12, 18 November 2018 (EST)


 * Thats a good point. And yeah the number might be iffy (we might of miscounted as well on some, like there are the ones that will have tons like Mario and Pokemon, the easy ones like Ice Climber and Duck Hunt are ones that we just have to look and know we got that right)

Either way, good work everyone. Collateralshrek (talk) 23:15, 18 November 2018 (EST)

Where the heck did the 1,297 spirits come from?
It was at 691 last night-now suddenly it jumps up to 1,297, yet I don't really see any changes on any of the numbers on the individual pages, where is that number coming from? Collateralshrek (talk) 17:58, 24 November 2018 (EST)
 * The number comes from the list linked to at the top of the page (here), which is a complete list of all the spirits that were leaked a while ago. The number of lines on the text file is 1297, and one spirit occupies each line. Thus, this is where the 1297 number comes from. — NokiiSig.png Nokii (T·C·L) 18:04, 24 November 2018 (EST)

Okay-I was beyond confused, as I would figure the other list would of jumped up-but it's number is exactly the same and the total is nowhere near 1,297. Collateralshrek (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2018 (EST)
 * I think it was coming from this source. https://nintendoeverything.com/super-smash-bros-ultimate-leaks-datamine-roundup/--Jacob9594 (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2018 (EST)
 * If you mean the numbers besides each "series" section, that's because the list here is still being worked on, and the text file is jumpy with its organization, making it more difficult to update the pages. — NokiiSig.png Nokii (T·C·L) 18:20, 24 November 2018 (EST)
 * Well the total wont reach 1,297 yet as we still have tons of undiscovered ones! Collateralshrek (talk) 18:39, 24 November 2018 (EST)

Enhanced Spirits
About the spirits that can be enhanced: how should it be indicated that they can do so and how should the spirit they become be identified?

My personal feeling is that it should be listed in the ability section of the base spirit that it can enhance (since none that I have seen had an ability on top of the enhance message), along with the spirit it becomes listed in parenthesis.

Example: Can be enhanced at Lv. 99 (becomes King Boo)

For reference, the spirits that I have personally seen that can be enhanced are:
 * Mario: Boo (becomes King Boo)
 * Donkey Kong: Dixie Kong (becomes Dixie Kong & Kiddy Kong)
 * Metroid: X Parasite
 * Pokemon: Groudon (becomes Primal Groudon)
 * Fire Emblem: Tsubasa Oribe (becomes Tsubasa Oribe (Carnage Form))
 * Animal Crossing: Tom Nook
 * Wario: 5-Volt
 * Metal Gear: Naked Snake (becomes Big Boss), Revolver Ocelot (Metal Gear Solid 3)
 * Sonic: Shadow the Hedgehog
 * Mega Man: Geo Stelar & Omega-Xis, Model X
 * Castlevania: Maria Renard (child) (becomes Maria Renard (adult))
 * Other: Nick

If there are other ways to do it, or if it isn't going to be done, feel free to say so.

Origin of the artwork
Not sure how this would be handled, but there should definitely be a section on spirit list templates that lets the user know what the artwork originates from. For example, on the Sonic spirits page, Chaos is listed as a spirit originating from Sonic Adventure, but there is no indication to tell that the artwork originates from Sonic Forces. Pokebub (talk) 10:06, 25 November 2018 (EST) (Didn't realize there was already discussion on this :P)

Augmented Fighter Stats
I'm proposing that separate the Augmented Fighter Stats, and make an "List of spirit battles" page. the template is already pretty big, but still need to add on enhanced and summon, so need to split page.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 21:21, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * This was already thought of and attempted, but decided against due to how similar the pages ended up being. This was a few months back though; considering how crowded each section is becoming, it would make sense to try this again. I'd love to hear what others think, though. BrawlersintheZone (talk) 22:02, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I believe it will be necessary to do, list is so crowded, but there's more to add.(Number, Enhanced, Summon, Price, Location, Music)--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 08:40, 12 December 2018 (EST)
 * There doesn't seem to be too many enhancable Spirits surprisingly. So maybe it should just be briefly mentioned on the ones that can. Like, "Super Shadow, Enhanced from Shadow" or "Shadow, can be Enhanced to Super Shadow", instead of having all of them saying "Enhanable: No/Yes". Also, the number should probably go before the picture of the Spirit. &#32;Wolff (talk) 14:21, 12 December 2018 (EST)
 * I tried to separate spirits stats and spirits battles (using the preview option, don't worry), does this look good to you : http://www.m-games.fr/SSBU/SplatoonSpiritsV2.txt If so, I would gladly do the same for all pages. I personally think it's way more user friendly that way. 81.254.247.115 19:07, 16 January 2019 (EST)

Spirit Number Listings?
While going through footage of the spirits I noticed that each spirit is listed under a Spirit Number, going from the original Mario spirit (No.1) and moving forward down the list. With this in mind, should spirits be listed by Spirit Number, with options to sort by Spirit Type/Level/Battle Requirements/etc., instead of the format it is listed in now? BrawlersintheZone (talk) 21:59, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I would think the numbers should be listed at the very least. &#32;Wolff (talk) 02:24, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Support Spirit' Type
Support Spirits divided into type only during Spirit Battles, so should move it to Augmented Fighter Stats.--Tyughvbnsi (talk) 02:13, 12 December 2018 (EST)

Spirit page proposal
Hello. Before I start adding the template (I already have all the information to finish all the spirit pages) I'd like to summit the proposal found right now in the Sandbox as an idea on how to show and organize this pages. I think that the spirit battle information is different from the information of the spirit itself so it could be moved. Anyways, not sure where to post this discussion or if imporvements should be made to my idea. GamblerMario (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * Please redirect any comments to the ongoing discussion in the Sandbox page. Thanks. GamblerMario (talk) 18:22, 17 December 2018 (EST)

List of all spirits
I think we should also make a page containing a list of all spirits from all universes. That page would be named simply List of Spirits of course this page would still exist and link to the overlall list as well as the lists for individual universes ProLink (talk) 09:35, 20 December 2018 (EST)

Spirits that can and can't be obtained in World of Light
I think that there should be a section that shows which spirits can be found in the Adventure Mode: World of Light, and which spirits cannot be obtained there. That way, people who want to get a few spirits before starting World of Light can see which ones aren't found in the adventure mode beforehand. 203.219.10.149 21:12, 26 December 2018 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.200.4.237 (talk • contribs) 22:29, December 24, 2018

Description for spirit characters
Theres no character description for these spirit characters in game, as far as I can see. I haven't played the game yet, I got the game, just needed to wait until the card reader is fixed. Maybe its to do with that "Details" section that you press with the "X" button when you go to choose the spirit. I Don't Know.203.219.10.149 21:42, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Replacing Character Names with Stock Icons Help
Would it be possible to replace the names of the characters with stock icons that link to the fighter when clicked on? E.g. we would have Bowser's black and white stock icon for the Dry Bowser section of the Mario spirits section instead of simply his name, but I wouldn't know how to do that yet. Blue Sun (talk) 23:07, 10 January 2019 (EST)

Sorting the series
Shouldn't the series be sorted the same way they are in the game (i.e. Earthbound before F-Zero, Super Smash Bros. between Mii and Other, etc...) ? 81.254.247.115 05:20, 16 January 2019 (EST)
 * If so, we need to decide which official order to use, there is two : the revealation one (which is the one used to sort spirits), and the one used for musics (which is not the same for whatever reason). YoshiRyu (talk) 07:09, 22 January 2019 (EST)
 * I personnaly think this should be sorted in the same order as the spirits, it would makes it easier for people to use when they want to check the whole list. Of course, the spirits from existing series that will be added later will screw it a bit (PKMN Let's Go, Mario Party), but I think it would still be better than the random order that is currently used. YoshiRyu (talk) 07:17, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Rethinking the whole structure ?
I've been completing the spirits data quite a lot those two past days, and I have to say that those lists are cramped as hell... I wonder, was it actually the way to go ? Was it really a good idea to put a different list for each spirit kind with so many columns ? Wouldn't it be more user friendly to have first a list of the Spirits stats for all the spirits (adding the Spirit kind after the Name, and putting a simple text based column about its Acquisition, and when it's throught a fight, just write "Obtained throught an augmented fighter in WoL/SB"), and then, in a second section, all the actual agmented fighters (with of course, the number, picture, and name of the spirits, but none of its stats) ? I think it would be way easier to read... I can give it a try starting with the Splatoon spirits page (it covers all possibilities while being a short list) if people think it's a good idea, I will gladly continue with all the other pages. 81.254.247.115 17:31, 16 January 2019 (EST)
 * I gave it a try (using the preview option), it looks quite good, check for yourself : http://www.m-games.fr/SSBU/SplatoonSpiritsV2.txt If there isn't any obection, I would gladly do that for each page. 81.254.247.115 19:02, 16 January 2019 (EST)
 * yes, i agree, the list is too cramped. I recommend the list structure:
 * List of spirits:


 * List of spirit battle:


 * In addition, I think list of spirit battle should created the pages and that list of spirit battle be categorized according to the World of Light, not by series.--Capstalker (talk) 08:14, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * I've started working on it before seeing this comment. I've done it for the first 3 series (Smash, Mario, DK), and also the 5 pages under 10 spirits. So power is still one column, and I didn't put a Music column in the Spirits battles (I also put type and power after the enemy fighter, because that's basically the type and power of the fighter, even if the fighter type is the same as the spirit type for primary spirits battles). I don't agree however that Spirits battles should be categorized according to World of Light, because some Spirit battles are only available throught the Spirit Board. 81.254.247.115 11:06, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * Also, the global power is just the sum of the attack power and the defense power, I don't know if it's really useful to put it in the list to begin with... 81.254.247.115 13:04, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * I've done every series up to Ice Climber (Pokémon took forever), I will finish it tomorrow, it's very late in my timezone. 81.254.247.115 18:13, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * I think we should include the global power. While it is the case that most of them are the sum of the attack and defense power, there are some that are not, (ex. Young Samus: attack is 810, defense is 540, the total should be 1,350, but the game shows the power to be 1,458. Source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL2PCRNaEVY&t=108s) Neonyoshi150 (talk) 19:52, 18 January 2019 (EST)Neonyoshi150
 * The Spirits only in Spirit Board can be categorized separately. Think about it, the spirit battle and spirits were on the same page, the "Other" page would be terrible; if create pages separately by series, some pages are too few (Ice Climber, Duck Hunt), so i think it's better to categorize according to the region of the World of Light. --Capstalker (talk) 21:00, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * Well, feel free to change it once I finished, the "huge" part is to seperate the stats from the battle, I'm doing it. Making separate pages for the battle will then be cut and past. Still not convinced by the WoL categorization for two reason : first one, the light realm is huge; second one, who is willing to check where each battle happens ? Bakc to it, it's Mega Man time. 81.254.247.115 08:08, 19 January 2019 (EST)
 * I just noticed that the series appears on the screen sumarizing the spirit battle, so grouping spirit battles by series makes sense as it is what the game does too. YoshiRyu (talk) 04:52, 20 January 2019 (EST) (formerly 81.254.247.115)

Enemy fighter(s) count in Spirits battles
Editing the whole thing (I'm IP 81.254.247.115), I noticed that people used multiplicators to avoid repetition in the Enemy fighter(s) column of the Spirits battles parameters. But I think it's not an accurate way to list those fighter : the game sometime use both several icons of the same character and multiplicators to dipslay different information. The Piantas battle display 4 Kirby icons with a x2 on each. Therefore, the right way to list this battle enemy fighters should be 4 "Kirby (x2)" lines and not a single "Kirby (x4)" as it was before, shouldn't it ? YoshiRyu (talk) 14:36, 19 January 2019 (EST)
 * I don't agree, in the game use icons to represent the enemies, it need to differentiate costumes. but on the list just use words, doing so can misunderstanding.--Capstalker (talk) 07:05, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * A Wiki purpose is to report informations, not interpretations, if the Piantas battle says it's "4 Kirby x2", it's not the same as "Kirby x4" or "Kirby x8", it's because you will fight four Kirby with 2 stocks each. Is it really up to us to alter the information from what is actually displayed on the screen ? You can argue that some of them are weirdly shown in the game (like Red Pikmin witch display Tiny Incineroar x1 x3 x4 x4 when it's actually 3 waves of 4 fighters and should therefore be x4 x4 x4), but most of them are actually implying more that alternate costumes. Sometime fighters a separated because they have different properties, sometime it's because they're part of different waves, sometime it because the first one is the only you need to KO, but as far as I can tell, it's never done without a reason, and that reason isn't only because they use different costumes. (Also, for the male/female dichotomy especially, in english it's the same fighter, but in other language, and therefore in the code, they are treated like Olimar/Alph or the Koopalings, with different identities) YoshiRyu (talk) 07:23, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * I started to replay world of light while screenshoting every battle intro screen so I can eventually list all the battles that are exclusive to the spirit board. Doing that, I checked some battles that includes multiple icon of the same fighter, here is the list so far : - Chespin : Ivysaur x1 x2 (only because the first one start the battle with a pokéball, should arguably be a x3) - Dr. Wily : include Mega Man x2 x2 x2 x2 (accurate, because it's 4 waves of 2 fighters) - Poppy Bros. Jr. : Young Link x1 x1 (I didn't see why, should arguably be a x2) - Red Pikmin : Incineroar x1 x3 x4 x4 (3 waves of 4 fighters, should arguably be x4 x4 x4) - Brewster : Villager x1 x1 (female and male) - Rover : Villager x1 x1 (male and female) - Copper & Booker : Duck Hunt x1 x1 (palette swap, should arguably be a x2) YoshiRyu (talk) 07:37, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * I agree to differentiate costumes, Maybe we can also use icons. But I still don't agree to distinguish waves, it's meaningless and can cause misunderstanding, if we need to distinguish waves, also need distinguishes waves of Spirit Battles with different enemies, moreover and as you said, we can't explain some cases.--Capstalker (talk) 08:55, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * I think differentiate a battle with a single fighter with two stocks ( Mach Rider ) and a stockless battle with two copies of the same fighter (Timmy & Tommy) is meaningful. But I will wait for more people to comment on it before going forward (the ones I've already changed will be easy to revert later if required, they're listed in that talk, I just need to add that I already did the same thing while restructuring the pages for : the Piantas, the Pegasus Sisters, and Eevee). YoshiRyu (talk) 09:11, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * Also, and for the record, I didn't say that some case can't be explained, I just said I did see why the Poppy Bros. Jr. has two separate Young Link (I killed them in seconds, so I didn't manage to spot the difference), and as for the Red Pikmin, I know the reason, it's just that it's an idiotic one (the 1st Incineroar is in the battle from the start while the 3 other ones pop after a second). YoshiRyu (talk) 10:17, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * Such as Mite's Spirit battle is can't explain, it's 4 enemies at first, and they have different costumes, but it's "Mr. Game & Watch x9".--Capstalker (talk) 11:02, 20 January 2019 (EST)
 * I think it's not actually about costume. Timmy & Tommy have the same costume, yet two separate icons. YoshiRyu (talk) 05:25, 21 January 2019 (EST)

Why is the page up for deletion all of a sudden?
This page has served well for a while. The only reason that it's up for deletion is because of the table being copy-pasted over to the Spirits (disambiguation) page, which doesn't work as well since the List of spirit pages and normal pages addressing spirits are their own different things, similar to sticker and trophy list pages. If anything, the list page should stay and the regular should have a link over to the list page. BrawlersintheZone (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2019 (EST)
 * I agree. The disambiguation should link to this page. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Make a list for all the spirits.
There used to be one a few days ago, it was the most useful page on the site. Now I can't find it anymore. Why was it removed, who wants to search through 20 sections to see all the spirits? Can someone please add this back ASAP? I can't find it anywhere. Also ban who ever removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Somerandomnob (talk • contribs) 10:42, February 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Firstly, avoid requesting specific users to be banned, and remember to by typing four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your message. As for the list, each attempt at a complete list was at best incomplete and outdated, making it far from useful. The closest attempt at a complete list was removed for this very reason, and the "List of spirits (complete list)" page is currently empty, thus being candidated for deletion. If you're looking to fix that, you're very welcome to. NokiiSig.png Nokii —  11:15, 3 February 2019 (EST)
 * I could work on such a list. I would make it the full list, sticking to data that won't ever need completion : number, picture, name, type, and class. Any thing else should be in there ? Other columns are either not relevant for each spirit type (Slots/Cost, Power, Ability/Facilty), incomplete (Power, Acquisition), or subject to frequent changes (Arworks). Once done, we could simply put a link to that full list right under the total spirit count on the disambiguation page. YoshiRyu (talk) 13:13, 3 February 2019 (EST)

Spirit Battle Locations
I feel that we should mention what locations are referenced by the stages Spirit Battles take place on. Does anyone agree with me on that? CleffaGirl173 (talk) 16:56, April 18, 2019 (EDT)

Toy-Con Robot Spirit
There's apparently a Toy-Con Robot spirit somewhere. Does anyone know about this? That would mean there's 1317 Spirits now, huh? https://youtu.be/R-1w0bAzb7Q

--173.171.204.37 17:35, April 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Could you please pinpoint the time that shows the spirit? ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 18:16, April 18, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah, it's at the 16:36 mark.--173.171.204.37 18:22, April 18, 2019 (EDT)

So...has anyone discovered anything about this? I haven't seen it on either the Spirit Board, Summon, or Vault. I'm stumped.--173.171.204.37 14:46, April 19, 2019 (EDT)


 * It might be a timed gift or something like with Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee, or planned for a weekend event like with Mario Party. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 16:29, April 19, 2019 (EDT)

Everybody is way to impatient here... What about simply waiting until we actually get solid informations about it from the game instead of wasting our time in vain speculations in the talk page ? I mean, the day this spirit will be avalaible in the game, it will not even last an hour before someone will get it and will happily add all its informations at once. There is no reason to try to guess things ahead of time... Honnestly I don't understand that stress that so many people seem to have over contributing as soon as possible. For instance people have gone back and forth over pre-adding a line for Persona 5 in the spirits list ever since Joker was announced... congrats, you've argued hours and hours about saving a few minutes if not even seconds to the guy that actually added Persona 5 spirits 3 days ago... are you now going to do the same for the Toy-Con Robot spirit ? Just let it be. We'll know soon enough. ;) YoshiRyu (talk) 15:03, April 20, 2019 (EDT)

We now know due to new information that this spirit will be part of a new Spirit Board Event along with three other spirits. Here is confirmation from server data. We can expect to learn more about these spirits tomorrow, but in the meantime, like YoshiRyu said, hold on editing anything until we know for sure what spirits go into what groups. This goes for pages like the DLC page. BrawlersintheZone (talk) 17:39, April 23, 2019 (EDT)

Spirit Battles: untold rules and/or conditions
There are Spirit Battles that have rules and/or conditions that aren't listed on the preview screen (exemple: in the Fairy Bottle Spirit Battle, Young Link starts the battle with a Fairy Bottle, yet its battle preview doesn't list that condition). Should we list the untold rules and/or conditions too in the spirit battles? And if so, should we use a way to tag them as "untold" like putting them in italic or something? YoshiRyu (talk) 06:39, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Absolutely should be listed; I think even stuff like what items appear matters. I personally don't think we need to specify they're hidden but there's nothing wrong with it. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 06:46, September 19, 2019 (EDT)

Repurposing the "Series Order" section?
Long ago, I separated the spirit battles data from the spirits statistics because the list was way too cramped. Since then, an Inspiration column have been added to the spirit battles array, and, as that column contains a lot of informations, it cramped back that array. So I've been thinking: what about repurposing the Series Order section into an Origin and Inspirations section? Here is the big picture: first the usual 3 identifing columns (number/picture/name), then we move the Origin Game (and artwork) column from the Spirits lists to that new array, of course we keep the Series column, and we end it with an Acquisition Inspiration and the Spirit Battle Inspiration, like this: While the Spirit Battle Inspiration will simply be the Inspiration column from the Spirit Battles array, the Acquisition Inspiration will be used to specify if some of the way some spirits are acquired have an actual reason. A few month ago, someone tried to put the reason behind the specific location of a Spirit Battle in WoL, and this column will be the place to put such information, but it will also allow the wiki to explain some enhancement, or why such spirit can be purchased, or summoned. Here are a few exemples of Acquisition Inspirations to help you better picture the use of that column: So, what do you think? Should we start doing something like that? YoshiRyu (talk) 20:22, January 17, 2020 (EST)
 * Geno: In World of Light, his Spirit Battle is located on the space area because, in Super Mario RPG, Geno is a warrior from the stars.
 * Mimicutie: In World of Light, her Spirit Battle become available after the player tries to open a fake chest, referencing how Mimicuty tricks people by looking like a chest.
 * Zelda (Spirit Tracks): This spirit is enhanced from the Phantom spirit because in Spirit Tracks, Zelda is first introduced as a Phantom (I think, but you get the idea).
 * Poppi α: This spirit is available throught summoning, reflecting how in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 she is a robot created throught science by Tora.
 * Aegislash: This spirit is available at Anna's Emporium to reference the fact that it is classified as a Royal Sword Pokémon in the Pokédex.
 * Stack-Up: This spirit can exclusively be acquired by purchasing it in a shop, referencing how R.O.B. was initially a real life accessory for the Nes.
 * Agitha: This spirit can be obtained by completing the challenge "Collect 10 unique spirits" just like she revolved around collecting insects in Twilight Princess.


 * Hmm... I'm not sure. I feel like we don't need to note too much about how spirits are acquired, per se, and the Spirit Battle inspiration works better when the stats of the battle are there to see. I can't say it's a bad idea, though. ~ Serena Strawberry  (talk) 20:40, January 17, 2020 (EST)
 * Well, most of the Spirit Battle locations in WoL have a meaning, and there is like 600 of them. As for the stats of the battle, it depends on the wording of the wording of the inspiration; if you go with "the conditions references...", it's sure gonna be confusing, but if it's rather "the low gravity condition references...", it's gonna be more understandable. Granted it has downsides too. Another option might be to add a "trivia per spirit" list: with such a more flexible definition, it could then include those "acquisistion inspirations" and even (didn't think about it before just yet) some "effect inspirations". Maybe we should add a whole "Spirit Trivia" section with a simple array with number, picture, name, and trivias bullet points (while still turning the Series Order section into a Spirit Origin section with number, picture, name, origin game (and artwork), and origin series). YoshiRyu (talk) 07:03, January 19, 2020 (EST)
 * {|class="wikitable sortable" style="width:100%;"

! No. ! style="width:5%;"|Image ! Name ! Origin Game ! Origin Series
 * 21
 * SSBU spirit Metal Mario.png
 * Metal Mario
 * Super Mario 64 (Artwork: Mario Kart 7)
 * rowspan="2" |Super Mario Series
 * 28
 * SSBU spirit Cat Princess Peach.png
 * Cat Princess Peach
 * Super Mario 3D World
 * }
 * {|class="wikitable sortable" style="width:100%;"
 * }
 * {|class="wikitable sortable" style="width:100%;"

! No. ! style="width:5%;"|Image ! Name ! Trivia
 * 104
 * SSBU spirit Geno.png
 * Geno
 * Spirit Battle inspirations:
 * The team that appears in his spirit battle represents the player's party in Super Mario RPG: Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mallow (represented by Kirby), and Geno (represented by Sheik).
 * The decreased FS Meter charge time reflects one of Geno's moves, Geno Boost, which raises his allies' attack power.
 * The stage choice represents Star Road, Geno's place of origin and a prominent location in Super Mario RPG.
 * In World of Light, his Spirit Battle is located on the space area, reflecting how, in Super Mario RPG, Geno is a warrior from the stars.
 * }
 * By the way, if we move the Origin Game column from the Spirits sections to the Series/Origin section, we will get some spare room in the Primary Spirits array that we could then use to separate the Stats column into 3 or even 6 columns (Power min, Power max, Attack min, Attack max, Defense min, Defense max). YoshiRyu (talk) 07:37, January 19, 2020 (EST)
 * Here is another exemple of "spirit related trivia point" that could go in a Spirit Trivia section: | an edit explaining the reason for a spirit effect YoshiRyu (talk) 07:43, January 22, 2020 (EST)inde
 * By the way, if we move the Origin Game column from the Spirits sections to the Series/Origin section, we will get some spare room in the Primary Spirits array that we could then use to separate the Stats column into 3 or even 6 columns (Power min, Power max, Attack min, Attack max, Defense min, Defense max). YoshiRyu (talk) 07:37, January 19, 2020 (EST)
 * Here is another exemple of "spirit related trivia point" that could go in a Spirit Trivia section: | an edit explaining the reason for a spirit effect YoshiRyu (talk) 07:43, January 22, 2020 (EST)inde

OK, the more I think about it, the more the alternate version makes sense. I'm going to end that discussion here and start two separate new one so people can reply to each idea separatly. YoshiRyu (talk) 06:44, January 23, 2020 (EST)

Spirits Origin section
What would you think about moving the Origin Game column from the Spirits arrays to the Series Order array, and renaming the section Spirits Origin? YoshiRyu (talk) 07:00, January 23, 2020 (EST) The idea would be to make it look like this: This would even provide some room to separate the Stats column from the Primary Spirits array into 3 or 6 columns, like this:
 * And I just made a Power badge to makes all of this more appealing... Equipment Icon Power Badge.png YoshiRyu (talk) 09:25, January 23, 2020 (EST)

Given the lack of reaction about that topic, and as I don't see any downside to this restructuration, I'll just go ahead and do it. If anyone thinks there are any reason not to do so, I'm inviting them to write their opinion here. YoshiRyu (talk) 05:25, January 31, 2020 (EST)
 * As for the origin, I have no objection. As for the Stats, it seems better to keep it as it is.--Capstalker (talk) 06:12, February 6, 2020 (EST)
 * I think that the origin section has the least useful info for in-game uses; stats are obviously useful, acquisition on how to get more, and number for cataloging. Though perhaps it could be merged with Series Order? It is fairly thin and would be just as long as an origin section. Also, the Zelda page is the only one with the origin split. Should that be changed back to match the others until a split is agreed upon?
 * The stat split I think it is very much needed. It will be useful to figure out which Primary to choose by looking for the stats you want. The series pages are also the only ones with the stats merged together; the Primary List and the  Complete List are already split. --CanvasK (talk) 09:40, February 6, 2020 (EST)
 * The idea was to transform the Series Order section into a Spirit Origin section that would include both the Spirit Origin, the Artwork Origin, and the Series. As for separating the Stats column, the intend was indeed to be able to make a good use of the sorting feature, but it's true that it's then kind of hard to guess what number is what stat, maybe it could be a better option to separate the stats yet keep the icons with the data, like in the following array. YoshiRyu (talk) 09:51, February 6, 2020 (EST)


 * If that's the case then I think it would be fine (I should've read the original post better).
 * I did a quick sandbox on a larger set and including the icons caused the sorting to not work properly. Sorting low to high caused 900 to be greater than 6000, defeating the purpose of the split. I think it would be best to leave only the numbers and if it is really needed then maybe a color-coding.--CanvasK (talk) 10:25, February 6, 2020 (EST)
 * In fact, in my opinion, this function is not very important, because there is the Primary spirit page.--Capstalker (talk) 23:36, February 6, 2020 (EST)
 * I don't think that is a good reasoning. Let's say I'm new to Ultimate and know very little about spirits but have collected some through my completion journey. My friend is making an arena later and is allowing spirits, I kinda like this K. Rool guy, and I heard that spirits from the same game as my character get stronger. I check the Primary spirit page and sort by attack, look hard for a spirit that looks good and notice 'Kaptain K. Rool'. I choose him because he has 5600 attack and is obviously from the same game. What I don't realize is that he is 53rd in attack and skimmed past 'Donkey Kong & Lady' which is 28th in attack, comes with a skill, and has an extra slot. I can also try the DK series spirit page but when I try to sort it it says 'Ninja Kong' is the best? He has much lower stats (I know that 'Donkey Kong & Lady' are first when unsorted, but the best isn't always first).
 * And then there is the editing perspective. I experienced this first hand when I recently joined and Byleth was added. I had the FE spirit page open on a smaller monitor and the text started to get jumbled together because of the image names, and it gets even more confusing on mobile. "Did I paste the wrong thing? Is it formatted wrong? Did I put defense where attack goes?". Split it up, give each stat their own line in the editor, and now the only trouble is counting. --CanvasK (talk) 00:45, February 7, 2020 (EST)
 * I don't agree with the "the primary spirits page" argument. That's thinking from the perspective of a contributor, but not from the perspective of a mainstream user. If a normal user ends up on the "per series spirits page", he won't guess that there is also a primary spirits page (heck, I didn't even know myself there was such a page up until right now). I think each page have to be self sufficient. It doesn't mean that the stats split has to be there, but the idea that it doesn't need to because it's already done somewhere else is flawed. I think it's a mistake many people here make: thinking about the "right" way to do things rather than the "useful" way. We should always think things from the viewpoint of a random user ending up on the wiki from a google search. YoshiRyu (talk) 07:32, February 7, 2020 (EST)
 * Not long ago, these pages were added to the template. I think it's not hard for people to found this page now. And If people need to find the spirit of a particular series, just add series to the Primary spirit page.--Capstalker (talk) 08:09, February 7, 2020 (EST)
 * If you know a bit about the wiki structure, then finding the spirit you want won't be a problem, that is true. If I'm new or lazy, then I'll google "ultimate donkey kong spirits" or search on the wiki "donkey kong spirits" which gives the series list first.
 * But I'm going to move past finding the spirits for now. What benefit does placing the stats into one cell have? From my point-of-view, splitting them makes them sortable, easier to edit, and takes fewer bytes. What is better about how it is now? --CanvasK (talk) 11:58, February 7, 2020 (EST)

Spirits Trivia section
The addition of the Inspirations column in the Spirit Battles array came with a lot of informations, and those informations eat up a lot of space. Also, since this column has been added, several people have been trying to add inspirations about the spirits acquisitions or effects that doesn't belong there, but should definitly be put somewhere on this wiki. For both of those reasons, I'm proposing the addition of a broader Spirit Trivia section with an array listing all the inspirations for the spirits effects, acquisitions, and battles. Here is an exemple of what suche an array would look like for Geno: Here are some exemples of informations beside spirit battle inspirations that could be featured in that new trivia section: So, what do you think about such a new section? YoshiRyu (talk) 07:46, January 23, 2020 (EST)
 * Lakitu & Spiny: The type of this spirit is Grab in reference of Lakitu frequently using a fishing rod for various tasks since Super Mario Kart.
 * Absolutely Safe Capsule: The maximum defense stat of this spirit is 10,000, the highest in Smash, because this capsule is supposed to be impossible to break.
 * Waluigi: This spirit effect is Foot Attack ↑ as a reference to Waluigi being described having strong legs in Mario Tennis/Party (not sure, but you get the idea).
 * Geno: In World of Light, his Spirit Battle is located on the space area because, in Super Mario RPG, Geno is a warrior from Star Road.
 * Mimicutie: In World of Light, her Spirit Battle become available after the player tries to open a fake chest, referencing how Mimicuty tricks people by looking like a chest.
 * Zelda (Spirit Tracks): This spirit is enhanced from the Phantom spirit because in Spirit Tracks, Zelda is first introduced as a Phantom (not sure, but you get the idea).
 * Poppi α: This spirit is available throught summoning, reflecting how in Xenoblade Chronicles 2 she is an artificial blade built by Tora.
 * Aegislash: This spirit is available at Anna's Emporium to reference the fact that it is classified as a Royal Sword Pokémon in the Pokédex.
 * Stack-Up: This spirit can exclusively be acquired by purchasing it in a shop, referencing how R.O.B. was initially a real life accessory for the Nes sold separatly.
 * Agitha: This spirit can be obtained by completing the challenge "Collect 10 unique spirits" just like she revolved around collecting insects in Twilight Princess.
 * QUOTE: Hmm... I'm not sure. I feel like we don't need to note too much about how spirits are acquired, per se, and the Spirit Battle inspiration works better when the stats of the battle are there to see. I can't say it's a bad idea, though. ~ Serena Strawberry  (talk) 20:40, January 17, 2020 (EST)
 * QUOTE: For the stats of the battle, it depends on the wording; if you go with "the conditions references...", it's sure gonna be confusing, but if it's rather "the low gravity condition references...", it's gonna be more understandable. YoshiRyu (talk) 07:03, January 19, 2020 (EST)