Talk:Final Destination (SSB4)

Should we also put the alternate FD designs on the pages for the stages they have the motif of, or should they only be here? ♡ FirstaLasto ♥ 02:17, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * On the contrary, I don't think they should be here at all, but rather on the same page as their regular forms. If Sakurai had called them simply "flat form", nobody would get the idea to list them here. - Ceci n’est pas un Smiddle. 02:52, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * But are they considered FD variations, or variations of their motif stages? It's not entirely clear at this point. ♡ FirstaLasto ♥  02:55, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, they are "the Final Desination form of stage X" and not "the stage X form of Final Destination", which hints that they are variations of their motif stages. - Ceci n’est pas un Smiddle. 03:06, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * That's a good point. ♡ FirstaLasto ♥  03:16, 13 April 2014 (EDT)
 * I think it depends on how exactly the variants are implemented in-game. If there's any way to select them individually, how that is done would determine how we should treat them. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Non-Toxic 10:27, 13 April 2014 (EDT)

About that trivia
You can't speculate here, yes? Then how can we be so sure they had these swords in mind. There's more evidence they wanted to underline the duality of the game but still, it's a speculation not true fact. 93.105.60.217 01:39, 20 April 2014 (EDT)


 * If it's not sourced, you have the right to delete it as long as it's from an upcoming game.75.85.64.155 23:46, 27 April 2014 (EDT)
 * It got deleted already. 93.105.60.217 14:02, 28 April 2014 (EDT)

Ω Form?
Today's (August 26th's) pic of the day says that the match is taking place on the Ω form of Gerudo Valley. Also this is For Glory, so it has to be on Final Destination. Presumably this means that the Final Destination form of a stage is called the Ω Form. Worth noting somewhere? This might lend some insight to the first discussion on this page. Perhaps we label these forms "Ω Form" on their respective pages, as it also shows that the stages are not considered to be Final Destination. Scizor Steelix  20:10, 26 August 2014 (EDT)

My link to Ω Forms
I don't really have much time to edit them, but I've made screenshots from Corneria Ω, Battlefield 3DS Ω, Spirit Train Ω, Rainbow Road Ω, Boxing Ring Ω, Willy's Castle 3DS Ω, Gerudo Valley Ω, Reset Bomb Forest Ω (At least, I think), Tomodachi Life Ω (Not sure about that one too), Unova Pokémon League Ω, Jungle Japes Ω (This one I'm not sure about either), Paper Mario Ω, Brinstar Ω, Arena Ferox Ω, Yoshi's Island Ω, maybe even Nintendogs Ω and Mushroomy Kingdom Ω. Link here : https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bx-NYabPCE8VT3VCbjZqMEdRTzA&usp=sharing Could you please choose, edit and upload the ones you like please ? Thank you. --Wolfy76700 (talk) 13:01, 30 August 2014 (EDT)

More Ω Stages
http://smashbros-miiverse.com/stages/final-destination-3ds/omega

I realize this isn't Sakurai, but we could at least mention these on here, right? Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 17:20, 6 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Read the top of the page, please. Miles ( talk)   17:23, 6 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Ok, let me rephrase that.


 * Are we going to mention the existence of these Ω stages on their appropriate pages? Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 17:25, 6 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The only means of mentioning those that we need are images (requested) and categorization here, which I've already done. Miles ( talk)   20:39, 6 September 2014 (EDT)

All stages have Omega forms
Confirmed in-game. You can press X to access these Omega forms. Wolfy76700 (talk) 16:48, 11 September 2014 (EDT)

IGN Shows off all starter stages
Includes all Omega forms, video available here : http://uk.ign.com/videos/2014/09/13/smash-bros-3ds-all-the-starting-stages --Wolfy76700 (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2014 (EDT)

All FD Variants
Lo and behold, I found this. Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 11:32, 14 September 2014 (EDT)
 * I've screenshooted the video but I don't have time to upload all that stuff. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bx-NYabPCE8VT3VCbjZqMEdRTzA&usp=sharing --Wolfy76700 (talk) 12:47, 14 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Give me time, and I can get them on here. Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 12:49, 14 September 2014 (EDT)
 * No problem, thanks ;-) --Wolfy76700 (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Happy to be of assistance. The wiki is basically screwed over at this point, and I figure I might as well help out in any way I can. Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 13:00, 14 September 2014 (EDT)

Final Destination Ω
Even Final Destination itself seems to have a Ω-form. Most likely due to being selectable even if the Ω-mode is selected. However, does it say "Final Destination Ω", like for the other stages, and does it have any differences at all?

Liggliluff (talk) 19:32, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm going with no. I mean, it's the original Final Destination. The Ω forms were based off of Final Destination. I doubt there will be any major differences. Aidan the Intermediate Gamer (talk) 22:34, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Actually, Ω Forms all have items disabled. Always. That is the major difference in this, though. Nothing else. 94.14.6.180 06:56, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Ω Forms don't disable items, that's only in the demo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.78.177 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 4 October 4 2014 (EDT
 * Remember to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ).  Rtzxy [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]]  Smashing!  16:02, 4 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Just checked, Omega Final Destination seems to be exactly the same stage as the normal form. --Menshay (talk) 16:13, 4 October 2014 (EDT)

Aren't the blast lines slightly farther or closer or something like that? I thought I saw a post on Reddit mentioning that. I can search for it if you'd like. - 96.245.75.104 23:32, 15 February 2015 (EST)

Mute City Omega
It miss a image of Mute City Omega Form.

Wii U Ω Stages
This could be useful. Aidan  the Gamer  19:15, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Gaur Plain U
Why is it that Gaur Plain Wii U is the only Omega picture that has fighters on it? Kenniky 21:33, 2 March 2015 (EST)
 * It was omitted, apparently by mistake, from the clean set of images of the omega forms that we're currently using. The current image is tagged for replacement as a result. Miles ( talk)   21:40, 2 March 2015 (EST)

The Design of SSB4's Final Destination
The design's really awesome! But I've noticed that unlike all the other Final Destination pages, this version lacks a description of the stage. Could somebody perhaps make up some sort of description for this version of FD? A little something to get you started, though: The design of the platform is Fire/Ice themed, which is really awesome in my opinion. Falconpunch (talk) 02:01, 28 April 2015 (EDT)

Split
Support per tag. I was literally about to suggest this, so creepy... Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 18:56, 17 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Lol. Support per tag. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   18:58, 17 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I already started listing the stages with different ceilings. Support. Gold  [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 19:11, 17 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Support cause... why not? Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png 19:25, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

Support. D o  t  s  (talk)  The Ocarina of Time 20:35, 17 May 2016 (EDT)

Oppose; the concept of an omega is literally "make Final Destination out of it", to the point where there's no name distinction in Japanese. The fact that they aren't all 100% identical should of course be discussed here, but splitting seems unnecessary. Miles ( talk)  00:20, 18 May 2016 (EDT)

Strong Support, there's difference between the stage and the Omega form TabuuandMasterCore (talk) 14:39, 18 May 2016 (EDT)

So exactly how much content would an Omega page have? I guess you could further categorize each stage based on ledges and distances, but I can't imagine having much more content for an already small page. Mega Tron1   17:50, 18 May 2016 (EDT)

Bump. Serpent   King   22:22, 20 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Support per others. PenroImage.png Pen ro  22:30, 20 May 2016 (EDT)

I've created a draft to show what a page on omega forms would look like. If no one else has any problems with it, I'll move it to the mainspace later this week. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 13:11, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * If that's all that can be said about the stages, then I feel as if though it wouldn't actually accomplish much to split up the pages. We keep moves like counter on the same page because there isn't enough content to split them up; I don't see why this would have some different exception to it. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 13:18, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I don't get what you are getting at. To me, there is plenty of content to justify omegas having their own page. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   14:00, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * We could probably specify differences more, but the page already takes up a good couple of kilobytes, so it's not like the page would be a stub. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 14:10, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Couple of kilobytes in pictures, as opposed to words. If we're going to define stubs by the amount of bytes they have total, as opposed to words in the main text areas, I'd like to see that specified on the Stub page.
 * That aside, there isn't a significant amount of content that you could add to either page once split. You could add a paragraph about the Omega differences and a paragraph about the visual scenes presented on FD, but that's about all I can think of. Splitting up the pages doesn't really accomplish much unless you believe that sifting through the Omega stage pictures is that much of a hassle to accomplish on the same page for a reader. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 17:37, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * First, the pictures are all condensed into two templates, so that section actually consists of maybe 100 bytes.
 * Second, if we want to write more about the differences while making them readable, we would need more than just a paragraph. To be comprehensive, we'd have to list the omega stages with walls, different traction, and different blast zones. If we listed that off in sentences (which is the way it is right now, but I plan to fix that), it would be very hard to read. Finally, the Smash 4 Final Destination page would be just fine without the section on omega stages. After all, we have pages on the other iterations, and those don't talk about omega forms. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 21:04, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Different blast zones? The two sources list the blast zones as being extremely standard throughout every single stage, relative to the center of the map, bar Halberd, Coliseum, and Palutena's Temple, which are only barely higher than normal. This bit contradicts what we have, so I'll have to run tests on those, although they all seem to basically be "this stage takes +1% to kill", so that in itself is a sentence. A long run, but still a sentence.
 * Same part applies to the traction thing. There are only 5 stages that have different traction features, so that's just another sentence again.
 * The walls bit could also arguably be categorized by footnotes. I'm still thinking about how to best incorporate that without having too much fluff. Regardless, all of this could just be accomplished in another section that's titled "Ω Differences" or whatever. I really don't think that the page is going to be unreadable just because of these additions, nor is listing things via sentences necessarily bad (although the footnote style of categorization might make things a lot more manageable). Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 21:42, 22 May 2016 (EDT)

(Reset indent) You're probably right on that particular matter, then. However, I still stand by my original point that splitting the pages will make them both easier to navigate. If I can add a bit more to that point, the page as is mixes points pertaining to omega forms and regular FD between sections and even bullet points. Typically, readers will be curious about omega forms specifically or Final Destination specifically, and the current format makes research for that a bit too cumbersome, and that issue would remain even if we rewrote the page or something of a similar measure without basically splitting the page into two huge sections. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 21:59, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * The parts about FD and Ω are all separated by sections except in the trivia. I think the page, as is, is easy enough to navigate. If the page itself becomes too cumbersome or whatever, the footnotes would chop off a large amount of the Ω section. ( I also would like to know where you're getting your assumption about reader curiosity; I clump up both stages whenever I think about them. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:07, 22 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I suppose I generalized a bit there, but when I look around the community, people tend to discuss the legality of FD and omega stages separately, and questions will regard either Final Destination itself or omega stages in general (with the arguable exception of omega Pac-Land and its quirks, but that only comes up once in a blue moon.) As for the layout of the page, it alternates between referring to Omega stages and FD roughly seven(!) times. That could be mitigated with cleanup, but only so much. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 21:43, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
 * 7 times? I'm not seeing it, unless you're looking at the pictures (which are still poorly organized in this case, honestly). People also combine the legality of FD and omega stages (a FD ban is also an omega ban)
 * That aside, I'd also like info on the amount of cloned moves we have that are on a single page (like counter). I'll concede the opposition for this if we split those as well, because they honestly fall into the same category of splitting imo (same yet slightly different, too many pictures on one page, etc.) Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:26, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I am looking at the pictures, and the legality has been separated almost as much as it has been combined (some talk existed about banning FD and replacing it with an omega because of the background, legalizing an omega with walls in addition to FD separately has been suggested recently, etc.).
 * As for counters, only the Fire Emblem counters are really combined in the manner you're referring to, and they're actually more similar than FD and the omegas. Heck, there's a small case for splitting Ike's counter (slightly different animation, properties change its use significantly). Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 22:37, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Gonna need a source on your first claim; most people who consider the FD bans as separate than the Omegas are usually claiming that based on how FD's background is visually distracting, which hasn't seriously taken off in most tournaments I believe. The main argument of separation is categorizing each Omega stage, but that's still subject to debate; not a lot of tournaments have decided to work towards that because of the other legal stages available regardless. Tournaments aren't willing to ban each Omega one by one; they'll do archetypes instead of giving each player 30 bans for each match.
 * As for the counters vs FD/omegas, they're on the same levels, honestly. Ike's counter is about as different as the wall variations are in my opinion. The traction and blast zone differences are also on par with the counter's slight variations. I'm just not a big fan of having that many images on one page when we can avoid it; most of the trivia is also specific to a certain character, so there's that. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 00:54, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

Bump. Are we going to do this or no? Serpent    King   20:45, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * No? There's still a discussion going on. Nyargle isn't the only person who can respond. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 21:15, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * That said, I think I'll respond. :P
 * You're probably right. It does seem to me that there is something different in how omega stages are viewed and researched than Final Destination itself, but it might just be an irrational gut feeling. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 22:14, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * So is there really any reason to split the page then? All the differences between FD and Omega are all currently covered on the Sandbox version of the page. I could probably clean it up more if it's still too hard to navigate or whatever. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:53, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * How many bumps is this thing going to get Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png 22:39, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Thanks for making the talk page harder to edit and filter. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:53, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Idk to me it just seems extremely strange not to have a page for the Omegas. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   23:46, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * And to me, it feels strange to have to go to another page to see information about Omegas. If you want to split up pages that are this similar, you'd have to apply it to the semi-clone moves (i.e. Counter) as well. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 23:51, 25 May 2016 (EDT)
 * It's a similar case, yes, but not completely related. We've chosen what we are going to do with the special moves, now we need to decide what's happening here. In other words, different things (stages vs moves) should not be required to be in the same format, if that makes sense. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   00:11, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Your welcome, megatRon :] Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png 16:18, 26 May 2016 (EDT)

(Reset indent) Serpent King does make a valid point. It's not like we're giving every omega form its own page, either, so it's not quite like Marth's, Lucina's, Ike's, and Roy's counters being split individually. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 22:11, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
 * @SK and Nyargle: If you're introducing a new interpretation of a ruling, that interpretation could be used to change an already settled policy. If a convicted felon was arrested on witness testimonies alone, the felon can use new DNA evidence to prove innocence. I'm also not proposing splitting up all the counters. Marth's and Lucina should definitely belong together based on clone needs, but this is becoming too much of a tangent.
 * Overall, the only argument left in favor of the split is "I think it looks better this way." There are so, so many things that could be split and undeleted with that reasoning, so is there some other reason you want this page to be split?
 * @KirbyWhatever: If you're going to be unhelpful and a bugger, go to Reddit or something. No response is necessary for this statement. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Oops, i responded. Also Woolly World OMEGA has a taller blast line, so that can be on the draft or something Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png 15:57, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Do you have any data points that prove this? Gold  [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 16:24, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I'm not quite following your metaphor. For the record, I'm switching my position to neutral. I was just saying that stages aren't exactly in the same place for splitting as special moves, and even if they were, you could make arguments for partly (not fully) splitting both pages. Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 16:43, 27 May 2016 (EDT)

Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I'll be implementing the Sandbox templates in around 2 days if there's no opposition to doing so. This doesn't change whether or not the page gets split; we've needed the improvement for a while. Mega Tron1   18:22, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
 * I don't see why we wouldn't just list those in prose. Miles ( talk)   19:10, 27 May 2016 (EDT)
 * "If we listed that off in sentences (which is the way it is right now, but I plan to fix that), it would be very hard to read." Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 03:17, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * And it's hard to read... how? It's concise, it's clear, and it doesn't require people to keep track of bold/italics or see the underline on WHZ. Miles ( talk)   03:20, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * None of the opposition have ever addressed why it's hard to read. The only one who ever talked was nyargle, and I just gave him that point because I didn't really care. If it's not obvious enough, someone who actually thinks this should reply. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 03:22, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Imo the sentences are fine. I'd like to direct attention back to the original topic though, the split. Supporters claim that a page for omegas would look full enough and that not having a page for such a mode is just odd. The opposing side claims that omegas are collectively too similar to FD to warrant a page. So what now? Serpent  SKSig.png  King   03:30, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Honestly, the best course of action would be to just split it.
 * The entire debate has been about "I think this looks better" the whole time. There's no actual objective reason to split the page. That said, if it bothers people enough, it just gets split. Done and done. It's not exactly incredibly annoying to have to click on another page for information.
 * That said, you just set up another precedence: a page creation can be completely justified if it doesn't bother me, but satisfies other people. That's why I've been mentioning the special moves so much. It's not particularly annoying to have to go to another page to see information about Ike's Counter or Luigi's Fireball, but I think it looks a whole lot nicer if they're all split up. The argument about what to do about that was settled a while back, but people can always rustle things again. You're presenting a new interpretation of what justifies a split; it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to apply that interpretation to this page only just because parts of the community talked it over way back then. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 03:50, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * There actually was a discussion on that not to long ago, but aside from splitting a few specific articles (Reflector and Blaster...and I think one more that I am forgetting about) not much came out of it. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   04:00, 28 May 2016 (EDT)
 * And you're using a different approach to splitting the FD/Omega sections. Is there any reason as to why this reasoning can't be applied to moves? Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 04:07, 28 May 2016 (EDT)

(reset indent) Well no I guess not. I am not entirely opposed to having different versions of special moves get their own pages (it would remove complications) but I think we'd have a hard time convincing the rest of the userbase. Serpent   King   04:12, 28 May 2016 (EDT)

Right, I will be carrying out this split tonight unless anyone has anything else to add here.  Serpent   King  19:25, 1 June 2016 (EDT)

Elevated Ceiling Blast Lines
I do believe that there are some wonky ceiling values across the board depending on the standardized move used. Smashboards tested their values using Mario's u-tilt, Smashgold tested his using Finishing Touch, and I tested a few using Little Mac's sweetspotted u-smash. All of these tests were performed in training mode with no DI possible.

My results confirmed that Palutena's Temple and Coliseum had slightly larger ceilings than FD, but failed to confirm that Halberd and Battlefield had modified ceilings. If we're going to mention the blast line differences, we need to establish the best testing move in this situation. Mega Tron1   23:41, 22 May 2016 (EDT)


 * Maybe Finishing Touch is too powerful of a move and made no difference even to Shield Art Shulk on the supposedly "higher" ceiling Omega stages. However, the fact that I was able to pull out smaller ceilings should definitely put us in the right direction. I don't know... I'll try using something like Cloud's down tilt.
 * ...Well, that was quick. Down tilt KOs Cloud at 202.5% on FD, but 203% on the three stages with a higher ceiling, and 202% on Omega Battlefield. Hooray. Gold  [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 05:28, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
 * Woolly World has a much higher blast line Kirby's Crazy Appetite ~ KirbyHeadYellowSSB.png 22:32, 23 May 2016 (EDT)
 * These are omega stages. Before you assume I made the wrong assumption, Mac's u-smash KO's at the standard 50% here against Mario. Mega  Tron1  Decepticon.png 22:39, 23 May 2016 (EDT)

Omega form section
Should this page have its own section for omega forms like all the other stages? ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is bad for me 22:55, 1 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Probably, yeah.  Serpent SKSig.png  King  23:01, 1 June 2016 (EDT)