Forum:Charizard's speed actually faster.

Faster then Pikachu?
I took a test of Charizard ( my favorite and best character) and Pikachu because I didn't really believe that a heavywieght like Charizard could match Pikachu. Using stage builder, I made 2 long different platforms and put the characters on the end of both. Then I made them run at the same time. To my surprise Charizard made it a few milliseconds before Pikachu. This ment Charizard is actually FASTER then Pikachu. The difference is really REALLY small however but the Orange Dragon is faster then the Yellow Mouse.Drakon64 (talk) 22:59, 27 November 2011 (EST)
 * Dashing speed wise, Charizard is indeed as fast as or slightly faster than Pikachu, and faster than most characters in Brawl. But for how "fast" a character is, there is much more that goes into it than dashing speed. Charizard's dashing speed blows away Squirtle's dashing speed, but once you factor in walking speed, air speed, the start-up lag of their attacks, the ending lag of their attacks...Squirtle is a character that clearly fights at a much faster speed. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:36, 27 November 2011 (EST)
 * True.....but if we are going to compare Charizard to Squirtle, I can put up a much better fight then my resorting in Mewtwo (SSBB). Charizard combines his dashing speed with his power when I play as him. The kick breaks any frontal attempt to fight and leaves enemy at the mercy of Charizard's attack combo. Even a skilled Meta-Knight player will have small difficulty with this. As for aerials, Charizard's up smash can thwart any overhead attack with great unpredictable speed. Flamethrower blocks and cancels projectile attacks. It also stops enemies in their tracks, and especially dangerous if used airborne. It also stalls so user can plan next move while foe tries to escape. As for aerial ATTACKS, Charizard best uses his aerials on grounded, off stage and overhead foes. Most of Charizard's attacks while grounded give awesome knockback and damage. For recovery, Fly is only a little boost upward. It does however, knock off characters edge hogging and blocking if they come in contact, thanks to it's high knockback. Gliding also helps Charizard safely get back on stage if knocked far where most other characters fall and get KOed. Rock Smash works like Flamethrower only more damaging. Works best on larger or taller characters. Grabing is where Charizard shows real ferocity. None to damaging but will send opponents flying with ease. Charizard isn't too much of a dodger, but slower dodging equals longer invincibility time. Charizard's neutral aerial is a great way to react against being attacked and sent slightly in air. All this plus his heavy weight really makes a force to be reckoned with.Drakon64 (talk) 00:22, 28 November 2011 (EST)


 * ...when I play as him.


 * Stopped reading right there. --- ReiDemon, Author Extraordinaire, 00:48,

28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Urk..... Ignore that part...... I Actually put up many good parts. Just see all parts referring to me as crossed out, since my computer can't seem to do it right....... Seriously Charizard could be a low "B" tier hadn't been for being put together with three others and Stamina.Drakon64 (talk) 01:08, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * The kick breaks any frontal attempt to fight and leaves enemy at the mercy of Charizard's attack combo. Even a skilled Meta-Knight player will have small difficulty with this.


 * Charizard's dash attack is slow on start-up, and even worse on ending lag. All an opponent has to do is just shield your dash attack, and then you're wide open to a shield grab or any OoS punish.


 * As for aerials, Charizard's up smash can thwart any overhead attack with great unpredictable speed.


 * Except...a competent player won't approach from directly above where their options are limited. Now you could catch someone making an aerial approach off

guard with a sudden running up smash, but it could only work as an infrequent mix-up, and not something to be relied on, as commonly used aerials will outspeed Charizard's u-smash. Also, you stale Charizard's best finisher with this, farther hindering its use for success.


 * Flamethrower blocks and cancels projectile attacks.


 * It will not block transcendent projectiles (such as the commonly used Blasters), and projectiles with 10+ damage dealing hitboxes will just plow right through it

(such as Charge Shot and Aura Sphere). Also, characters can use their projectiles in a way to pass the Flamethrower (such as Dedede jumping when using Waddle throw, allowing a Waddle Dee to sail over Flamethrower and land into Charizard). Plus, Flamethrower is slow on start-up and ending lag, with a rather long set time you have to commit to using the move (moreso than most projectiles, which hinders its capability as a casual projectile blocker), and with its dissipation, Charizard would not win a projectile stand off against nearly any projectile user (so using Flamethrower to outcamp a projectile camper would not work).


 * While what you said there may be true to a degree, you are just better off shielding, dodging, and tilting projectiles, than trying to block them with Flamethrower.


 * It also stops enemies in their tracks, and especially dangerous if used airborne. It also stalls so user can plan next move while foe tries to escape.


 * Yes, you can stall someone to "plan", but no matter how much planning you do, Charizard is left quite vulnerable after letting go of Flamethrower. As a result, an opponent caught in Flamethrower can SDI it to land behind (or in the air above you), where with the very minimal hitstun, they can easily punish before you have time to defend yourself.


 * ''As for aerial ATTACKS, Charizard best uses his aerials on grounded, off stage and overhead foes.


 * So, Charizard's aerials are effective in situations where its aerials can be used? I'm really not sure what the point of this statement was.


 * Most of Charizard's attacks while grounded give awesome knockback and damage.


 * Powerful? Indeed they are. But awesomely powerful? Not quite. Ike's, Ganondorf's, and Snake's ground attacks are awesomely powerful. And while most of Charizard's ground attacks are powerful, most of them are also really slow, which limits their use quite a bit.


 * ''For recovery, Fly is only a little boost upward. It does however, knock off characters edge hogging and blocking if they come in contact, thanks to it's high

knockback.''


 * Pretty much any recovery move with a damaging hitbox can knock an edge hogger off the ledge. And no matter how powerful a move is, it will not knock off an edge hogger who times their edge hog to exploit the invincibility frames.


 * ''Gliding also helps Charizard safely get back on stage if knocked far where most other characters fall and get KOed.'


 * That is true, but its glide speed is also slow, where you can easily be intercepted by edge guarders. And your only option to defend yourself during gliding is a glide attack that will be outreached by most aerials.


 * Rock Smash works like Flamethrower only more damaging. Works best on larger or taller characters.


 * Rock Smash has the problem though that many of Charizard's attacks have, its slow on start-up, and has highly punishable ending lag. It certainly can't be used as a reliable approach or defensive move.


 * Grabing is where Charizard shows real ferocity. None to damaging but will send opponents flying with ease.


 * Charizard's amazing grab is its saving grace, but Charizard does not have the throws to allow this to make up for Charizard's shortcomings in other areas. While Charizard's throws are strong (for throws anyway), they are not exceptionally powerful to be real KO threats (like Ness' b-throw), nor exceptionally damaging (like Dedede's b-throw). And most lacking of all, none of Charizard's throws can chain throw, nor have effective follow-ups. So while Charizard's grab game is good, its throws are not good enough for it to be among the top tier in that category.


 * Charizard isn't too much of a dodger, but slower dodging equals longer invincibility time.


 * Slower start-up on rolling dodges, sidesteps, and air dodges, does not necessarily equate to them having longer invincibility frames.


 * Charizard's neutral aerial is a great way to react against being attacked and sent slightly in air.


 * Charizard's neutral aerial is among the slowest neutral aerials, and with mediocre damage and knockback, along with no follow-up capability, it doesn't really accomplish much.


 * All this plus his heavy weight really makes a force to be reckoned with.


 * Any character, including Ganondorf, can be a force when played the right way. Charizard however, when compared to other characters, is just rather poor.

Charizard is one of the slowest overall characters in Brawl (no matter how fast Charizard's dash is, it can't make up for being slow in about every other area), with subpar ground attacks and special moves, and with one of the worst aerial games in Brawl (in fact, I would argue that you could make a case for Charizard having the worst aerial game). Charizard does has a top tier grab, but it does not have the throws for this amazing grab to be a game changer.


 * Plus, Charizard comes in with the Pokemon Trainer's problems (stamina, forced character changes, free punish for the opponent or loss of opportunity when changing outside invincibility). [[User:Omega Tyrant|Omega ]] Tyrant   01:42, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Here's my comeback


 * The kick is a lot faster then you think. Remember, Charizard has speed in dashing. A successful kick can make up for any lag time. Dodging this or counter attacking is brutal against Charizard so unpredictability must come in play to ensure a hit by making loops near and far from enemy.


 * The u Smash creates a limit on options and punishes mess ups. Charizard using his dash combined with a quick dodge can be a set up for his attack. It has

a speedy start and given the right position will be horrible luck to the enemy.


 * Flamethrower can counter several thrown weapons ( all of Link's arsinal like Bombs) and physical moves. Since it can be aimed and the flames are considered a seprate attack each, this really does give Charizard some defense. Because of this, however I guess is why Flamethrower can't combat larger projectile.


 * As for the part you didn't quite understand, Charizard shouldnt use his aerials in aerial combat in particular. In fact, a successful stomp is immpossible when in midair. However, if enemy is grounded it is relatively easy to stomp foes. The forward plays the same way, only a little distance can be made. Up aerial is best if foe is above you but not directly overhead, to avoid enemy's aerials. Back aerial is a resortment, because of it's limited range and power all together along with severe lag. Only if opponent is helpless, nearby and behind could one do this regularly without danger. The neutral IS a good react move ( the position and movement of attack can prevent more attacks by enemy or even knock him/her back some, despite what one may see it as "Laggy".)


 * Gliding is pretty slow if you only remain stationary during it. Repeated decending and acending can avoid most if not all react attacks. We're comparing

Charizard to SNAKE?! He's only good for a single combo! Flamethrower properly used can avoid ALL of his weapons. But going back on power, with Charizard's constant use of damage racking attacks will make these moves really useful, despite not being absurdly powerful on their own.


 * P. Trainer's effects hardly limit Charizard at all. Stamina is really only a beginning boost and noone is forcing you to change Pokemon. You could fight the entire match as Charizard. The two others are tag-alongs to me, especially Ivysaur who is probably the worst character in Brawl. Pokemon Change's invincibility is useless because of the lag as soon as a Pokemon comes out WITHOUT invincibility frames. How's that?!Drakon64 (talk) 09:35, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * The kick is a lot faster then you think. Remember, Charizard has speed in dashing.


 * A character's dashing speed has absolutely no effect on the speed of their dash attack.


 * A successful kick can make up for any lag time. Dodging this or counter attacking is brutal against Charizard so unpredictability must come in play to ensure a hit by making loops near and far from enemy.


 * Successfully landing nearly any attack can "make up for lag time". It doesn't change the fact though, Charizard's dash attack is slower than most, and is

extremely easy to shield grab.


 * The u Smash creates a limit on options and punishes mess ups. Charizard using his dash combined with a quick dodge can be a set up for his attack. It has a speedy start and given the right position will be horrible luck to the enemy.


 * Charizard's u-smash can work as a great punish, but as a limit to opponent's options? As I said in my previous post, while it is fast for a smash attack of its power, commonly used aerials are going to outspeed it. So, using it as your common counter to an aerial approach will cause you to eat aerials more often than successfully disrupting your opponent's approach. Plus, a point you seemed to ignored, using it as your common approach will stale it, hindering what is Charizard's best finisher, resulting in finishing the opponent's stock becoming more difficult.


 * Flamethrower can counter several thrown weapons ( all of Link's arsinal like Bombs) and physical moves. Since it can be aimed and the flames are considered a seprate attack each, this really does give Charizard some defense.


 * You seemed to have ignored my point on how opponents can use their projectiles in a way to bypass a Flamethrower stream, how the combined start-up,

duration, and ending lag (along with its dissipation effect) makes Flamethrower less practical for defending against projectiles than more conventional means, and how opponents can utilise SDI to get through Flamethrower and get a free shot off you. Also, Link can charge his arrows to where they deal more than 10% damage, which will result in that arrow outprioritising the hitboxes of Flamethrower and going right through it.


 * Charizard shouldnt use his aerials in aerial combat in particular.


 * That's pretty much a red sign that a character has a poor aerial game.


 * In fact, a successful stomp is immpossible when in midair.


 * Not true, Charizard's dair can definitely be landed on airborne opponents.


 * The forward plays the same way, only a little distance can be made.


 * I'm not sure what you're stating here either, that the forward aerial can't be landed on airborne opponents? Whatever it is you're saying, the fair could of been

a good aerial, if not for the fact that its hitboxes, except for those right next to Charizard's mouth, are incapable of flinching the opponent. That, combined with highly punishable ending/landing lag, severely hinders its utility.


 * Up aerial is best if foe is above you but not directly overhead, to avoid enemy's aerials.


 * I wouldn't say its uair is a bad aerial, but it is outclassed by most other uairs in Brawl. Its power is rather average, as well as its reach and hitbox size. While its start-up isn't too bad, its ending lag is rather high, preventing it from being an effective juggler. As such, it can't KO like the power uairs do, but it can't juggle like the fast, weak uairs do.


 * Back aerial is a resortment, because of it's limited range and power all together along with severe lag. Only if opponent is helpless, nearby and behind could one do this regularly without danger.


 * Imo, I would say its bair is Charizard's best aerial (though that isn't saying much). I see it as a sort of inferior Ike bair; it has great power combined with surprisingly fast start-up, but has a nearly strictly horizontal hitbox with very poor vertical reach, and high ending/landing lag. Though when compared to Ike's, it has to be sweetspotted, is not quite as powerful, and it has even worse ending/landing lag. You're right it can't be used as one of your commonly used moves to rack up damage, but as a finisher, I would say its Charizard's second best after its u-smash.


 * The neutral IS a good react move ( the position and movement of attack can prevent more attacks by enemy or even knock him/her back some, despite what one may see it as "Laggy".)


 * Yes, Charizard's nair can be used as a react "get off me" move. But as I pointed out before, its speed is among the slowest for nairs, and as a result, nearly every character's "react move" is going to hit you before you hit them. And Charizard's nair does not have the reach to compensate for this (like Ike's nair does). Also, as I said before, Charizard's nair really doesn't accomplish much, having no outstanding attributes or even above average attributes.


 * Gliding is pretty slow if you only remain stationary during it. Repeated decending and acending can avoid most if not all react attacks.


 * Its gliding speed is still slow, and an opponent reading you is going to be able to punish it easily.


 * We're comparing Charizard to SNAKE?! He's only good for a single combo!


 * Snake....good for one combo? There are just so many things wrong with that statement... Just look at Snake's tourney results, monetary winnings, and

perpetual top tier placement, and then honestly tell me Snake doesn't compare to Charizard.


 * Flamethrower properly used can avoid ALL of his weapons.


 * Have you ever fought a competent Snake before, or even have experience with Snake? A Snake would easily be able to lob his grenades over Flamethrower, where they then blow up on you, giving Snake an ample opportunity to DACUS and follow up painfully.


 * But going back on power, with Charizard's constant use of damage racking attacks will make these moves really useful, despite not being absurdly powerful on their own.


 * Charizard is indeed in the high tier of power, but his power pales in comparison to Ike, Ganondorf, and Snake. And there are other characters who are overall more powerful, and have faster attacks, like Donkey Kong, Bowser, and King Dedede.


 * Stamina is really only a beginning boost and noone is forcing you to change Pokemon. You could fight the entire match as Charizard. The two others are tag-alongs to me, especially Ivysaur who is probably the worst character in Brawl.


 * Trying to fight the whole match as Charizard is just impractical. Once stamina kicks in, Charizard's power decreases severely, and in that state, it's near useless. And once the inevitable stock loss occurs, getting back to Charizard will result in you giving your opponent a free punish (or stock in some cases), or you giving up opportunities to capitalise on your opponent's vulnerability.


 * Pokemon Change's invincibility is useless because of the lag as soon as a Pokemon comes out WITHOUT invincibility frames.


 * You seemed to have misread my statement. I said the only way to change Pokemon without getting punished or giving up an opportunity is during the invincibility you get right when you revive from losing a stock.


 * How's that?!


 * In honesty, you seem to be highly biased towards Charizard, and lack competitive experience (saying Snake is only good for one combo is a huge flag here). Have you ever been to a serious tournament before, or at least fought competent players in a competitive manner? Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:52, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * I never fought Snake when he was in control of an actual good Snake player. Believe it or not I rarely use the other Pokemon in battle EVER and I managed 21 KOs in Cruel Brawl. However I take back most of what I said about Snake, because I had used him not a long time ago and found all of his physical attacks AMAZING. And yes I've been to serious tourneys at a Books a Million and won 2nd place in a 32 player finals ( lost to Meta-Knight player # 19 but gave a fantastic effort). Players scratched their heads in confusion of how Charizard could ever match a Meta-Knight. Only one person used Snake and lost during quarter finals by a Luigi player.My friend Lenny played Toon Link but lost to that particular player ( Meta-Knight #19). I use other characters in battle a lot but Charizard is my main, not Pokemon Trainer. I can match other Players who use the broken Meta-Knight with extreme unpredictability and change tactics that both work and don't work throughout battle at random times. Saying I have lack of competitive experience is a real big insult on me so I had to explain otherwise.Drakon64 (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * In my experience, nearly every player who is over zealous about their low/bottom tier mains tend to have next to no competitive experience, especially if they claim a bonafide top/high tier character is a poor character. Nice to see though that you aren't completely inexperienced. Anyway, it's fine to think your character is underrated (which can work as a good source of motivation to succeed in competitive play), but avoid getting delusional about it. Failure to recognise your character's shortcomings will hinder your progress and your success with them. The best way to prove a character is underrated though, is by succeeding with them in tournament well beyond what their tier placement would indicate (like San did with Ike). No amount of theorycraft and debate can compare to consistent high tournament placings. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:49, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Ya don't say...... Any tourneys near Jacksonville, Florida? I think Im gonna try raising Charizard up in ranks :3Drakon64 (talk) 20:27, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * To my knowledge, Florida has one of the most active regions in the States. I would suggest going on Smashboards, and finding your region thread, where you can then meet other players in your region and get connected. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:53, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Note that the reason Charizard is so low is not because he's bad; as an independant character he's generally considered solid mid tier. However, as part of the poorly conceived Pokemon Trainer, he can't rise very well in tiers. Mr.  Anon MatchupUnknown.png talk   21:13, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Where have you heard people say Charizard is mid tier potential? He's commonly considered among the low tiers. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:27, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * I thought it was Ivysaur who was considered low tier? Anyways, according to this in depth Pokemon Trainer guide, Charizard is almost as useful as Squirtle and is extremely useful in Team Matches. Given, this may not be a completely perfect representation of the Brawl meta-game, but this more recent guide also describes him as a "mixed reviewed" character, which puts him at mid tier, no? Mr.  Anon MatchupUnknown.png talk   21:38, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * Mixed review doesn't necessarily equate to mid tier, mixed review means the character's tier placement is disputed (such as if he's mid tier or low tier). And I wouldn't trust that first guide, besides being very old, its statements are not of the general consensus. And one more thing, a guide isn't the way to see how a character is viewed, as they are written by those who main the character, and will naturally say their character is better than what the consensus views them more often than not. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:57, 28 November 2011 (EST)
 * I believe you, since I know nothing about the Pokemon Trainer's metagame, but that's just where I got the idea that Charizard was mid tier. Mr.  Anon MatchupUnknown.png talk   23:39, 28 November 2011 (EST)

WAIT JUST A FREAKING SECOND!ON THE SMASH ARENA YOU (Omega Tyrant) said that if all 3 fought each other,Charizard would win.Not to mention he had more than double of Squirtle's votes. "Squirtle is considered the best of the 3 by far" what a load of frog cr@p!!!!!!Drakon64 (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2011 (EST)