Forum:Further documentation on unplayable characters

To clarify, I don't know what the current standards are on this, but from what I see on the wiki, if I were to go ham on it, I would probably cause a ruckus of some kind, so I'm writing this up.

Recently I've been attempting to document some of the unplayable characters more effectively, mainly Giga Bowser. A thought crossed my mind regarding this, though: we don't really do moveset pages and the like for these characters, despite the only difference being their playability. Part of the inspiration for this proposal are a few "developing a meta" videos by Joseph Maolin, eg. this. They're some of the most analysis that has been done on Melee's "forbidden" characters at the very least and I think it's a shame there isn't really anywhere to put this type of thing.

So my proposal is this: should we expand upon the documentation of these characters in cases they can be played as through hacking? If so, should we design moveset pages for them that document their frame data and utility as if they were playable normally? I'm thinking to the degree of Master Hand and Crazy Hand's character pages, plus the moveset pages. Naturally, this would cover everything from the Wire Frames to 64 Metal Mario and Ultimate Giga Bowser. In Melee especially, the "forbidden" characters are decently popular and even see online use at times. Similar things can be seen for Ultimate, and while it was used for an April Fools, Rekzius did some analysis on Giga Bowser's hitboxes. I feel like there is a large benefit to analysing these characters seriously from an encyclopaedic perspective, even if it's moreso "for fun".

I suppose I should define what we're "expanding" here. I think the Giga Bowser (Final Smash) and Wario-Man pages are what I would consider to be the ideal form of documentation on the unplayable characters, it's just right. Perhaps an Overview on the character itself in the place of the final smash; this would particularly benefit the Wire Frames which have significantly different movesets to their counterparts, the current documentation is frankly not very good. I would also argue for the inclusion of moveset pages akin to what real fighters have — same for the Transformation Final Smashes that involve moveset changes of that magnitude, honestly — which would, again, make for solid documentation. This could also help the pages for Final Smash Giga Bowser and Wario-Man, as their movelists aren't too detailed as-is.

Master Hand and Crazy Hand have their own "character" pages, which has strangely not been done for any other unplayable fighter. I consider their pages to be pretty great for this role and could even be expanded on. If we were to take the character page angle, for example, I would do something like character pages for the Red, Yellow, Blue, and Green Alloys, Male and Female Wire Frames, Melee/Ult Giga Bowser, 64 Metal Mario, Brawl bosses, so on, so forth. You get the idea, yeah? Any controllable boss; the current pages for the Alloys/Wire Frames could be kept akin to the hands. I think there are a bunch of boundaries you could set for this though, which I think would be a pretty big discussion. How far do we go, etc? The standards on what defines a boss has changed significantly with Ultimate at the very least, drastically decreasing the significance of Master Hand and Crazy Hand as bosses overall, so this is perhaps something to consider.

The main argument against this is mainly "standards": they're not normally selectable, and should never be considered "real" fighters. Thus, because of the strange nature of these characters, expanding upon them is not important. I agree with this, I wouldn't include them on Fighter lists and want to take the angle of improving what's already present and improve their consistency. I do feel like there is a "market" for this type of documentation, and there is a small Melee community (specifically the Forbidden Character Discord) that has aimed to argue for the inclusion of the unplayable roster in the past. There are even mods like Smash Remix and Project M that make them playable normally, sometimes with strings attached. . It's also a pretty significant change overall, perhaps too much in some areas. There's a lot of weirdness. You could even argue that the current documentation on many bosses is sufficient, though I would disagree from an encyclopaedic perspective, considering that this proposal is being made at all and there's outside resources like Maolin's that are doing a better job than we are.

Anyway, thanks for hearing me out. The more background checks I did on this topic, the more I realised how big a "project" this would be, but I'm very interested in seeing how it plays out. -- Plague  von Karma  09:04, September 29, 2021 (EDT)


 * I think there's a fairly major distinction necessary between non-standard characters which a player is able to play as without external modification (Wario-Man, Giga Bowser, Master Hand) and ones that do require hacks to ever be under player control. I also don't see moveset tables and such being necessary for things like the Wireframes/Alloys/etc. since they're functionally just stripped down versions of normal characters' movesets. Miles ( talk)   13:32, September 29, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'm not entirely sure as to whether they'd be unnecessary, at least for the Wireframes, which have different frame data entirely on some moves alongside varying properties. They're stripped down, yes, but the differences make them more like Melee's playable clones overall. For example, Female Wireframe's UAir and smashes may as well be different moves entirely, and Male has a freakishly huge UTilt hitbox. I can't speak for the Alloys due to general inexperience with Brawl's unplayable characters but eh. Do you agree that the rest warrant similar treatment to the hands, though? --PlagueSigImage.png Plague  von Karma PlagueSigImage.png 14:33, September 29, 2021 (EDT)
 * Not really. I think that it would ultimately be a pretty frivolous kind of bloat to bother adding. Miles ( talk)   15:35, September 29, 2021 (EDT)


 * Very late on this but I don't see why we shouldn't have that information on the wiki. Even if you can't play as them normally, you do still fight them, which makes that moveset information still fully relevant. A wiki that aims to be fully comprehensive about Smash should not require people to search outside the wiki for relevant game data. Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:57, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Thanks for the bump, OT! I'm still open to assisting with this, and have some new things to share that have happened since then.
 * Firstly, I want to note that Melee Giga Bowser has seen notable traction in the past few years, as seen in this YouTube video. Tournaments experimenting with a legal Giga Bowser have been played, making him in particular a notable character among the "unplayables". Arguments for legalising these characters are still debated sporadically in at least the Melee community.
 * Secondly, I unearthed an old spreadsheet for Melee Giga Bowser's frame data and statistics, which could be used in the creation of a character page for him.
 * Smash Remix has unplayable characters like Giant Donkey Kong available, which has seen a massive rise in the tournament scene.
 * Finally, my friend EyeDonutz made a spreadsheet for Ultimate Giga Bowser as well, which I believe I've used for editing in the past.
 * EDIT: Toomai brought up some stuff on Discord, regarding documenting the Brawl bosses. In terms of moveset pages, it makes sense to document them like command input pages; "Move 1" and so on. For numbering them, internal move order sounds correct. Collecting data on SSBU characters may be difficult given the difference in compilation, but Giga Bowser's is at least there.
 * EDIT 2: I produced an SSBM Giga Bowser page to get across what I'm after.

I believe that unplayable characters should have pages akin to that of playable characters, talked from the perspective of playing against them, and playing as them, in separate sections, with the latter being pretty much as detailed as a playable character's. Therefore, I believe that my previous comment about the Giga Bowser and Wario-Man Final Smash pages is wrong, and that they don't go far enough. Even simple overviews seem perfectly fair: We have character pages for characters from Project M and so on, and I would put hacking in playable characters like these ones on exactly the same level as them, personally. With at least the Melee community having discussions along these lines, it seems reasonable to have this information on the wiki to aid in future discussions. Other areas are doing better on documentation than SmashWiki as said before, and we should contribute to the progress in some capacity. From an encyclopaedic perspective, more is always better, and shutting things down with the idea of it being "bloat" is counter to a wiki's interests. -- Plague  von Karma  20:41, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * I think the reason why the Hands have per-game pages is because their movesets change drastically in each game. I do think detailed move lists and even specific move hitbox data are definitely a very good idea, though I'm not particularly keen on separating each one of them per-game like the Hands. The reason why certain mods have their own pages is because of their competitive usage, and in your draft of the Melee Giga Bowser page, it's stated that his competitive usage is very low. Also, aside from Galleom, Ridley, Giga Bowser, and the Fighting Mii Team (which is just a stripped down version of playable characters) none of them have appeared in more than one game, so making separate pages for each boss is just bloat, especially for smash-original ones where figuring out what would be on the main and specific game pages would be a nightmare. I think only Giga Bowser, fighting teams (besides the Miis and Polygons, which should just be covered on the base fighters' pages; in other words just the two Wireframes and four Alloys), and maybe 64 Giant DK and 64 Metal Mario depending on how changed they are from their base character they are, should potentially get separated pages, and even then I'm iffy. The rest have pretty bare movesets and were only in one game, and when Galleom came back he only got like 2 new moves, and Ridley getting Brawl and Smash 4 pages would indirectly imply he was playable before Ultimate. Stage bosses should definitely not have their own pages, as aside from Ridley they have barebones movesets and what actually counts as a stage boss is kind of subjective. Unnamed anon (talk) 23:59, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * In my opinion, if Project M, P+, etc characters can have a page, then so can Giga Bowser and SSBB Rayquaza. Easily. There is far more tie to the games and I'd argue that cheating devices have historically been more accessible than mods like P+. Hell, I'm pretty sure more people have at least tried Giga Bowser over the years than those who have tried P+ Knuckles. When has single-game availability stopped anything in the pursuit of documenting every game to the best of a wiki's capabilities?
 * "Bloat" is only a valid argument in cases where the information is useless. Keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia that is meant to cover all things Smash. I've more than explained and demonstrated why and how it isn't bloat here - hacking is a valid way to play the game and there is competitive experimentation. They don't need to be added on competitive merit, necessarily - the characters are playable, just not without cheats. Casual play exists and that is why items and such are well-documented, even if they're exceptionally minor. With game preservation in a death knell and cheating baked into emulation, you could argue it's even a moot point. That's why Melee's unplayables are argued for tournament legality at all.
 * If you want a boundary, here's a nice and easy one: "Do these characters have usable movesets and controls when loaded in-game with no other modifications?". Think of it like...unearthing unused characters. That covers Metal Mario, Giga Bowser, and Rayquaza. If I recall correctly, that doesn't cover Sandbag (well...sorta) and SSB4 Ridley. I think Metal Mario and Giant Donkey Kong are fine to have their own pages as they are individual characters - Metal Mario, notably, plays very differently. Like, this is the game with the original Luigi...c'mon, lol. Anyway, I think this would be what most people are looking for when they're hacking in unplayable characters - their aim is to make them playable, this helps them experience it to the best of their ability.
 * I like your thoughts on the Polygons and Miis, but it's a bit iffy when applied to others. The Wireframes are actually significantly different characters, having entirely different hitboxes, and I remember the Alloys being similar. Perhaps they should just be treated appropriately - Polygons on namesake pages, Wireframes and Alloys not. The Polygons don't even really have names unlike the others, so it makes sense.
 * Gave me a lot of thoughts! Hope this response clears things up. - PlagueSigImage.png Plague  von Karma PlagueSigImage.png 00:23, April 19, 2023 (EDT)


 * I'll also reiterate it ain't just about their hypothetical playability, you still fight these characters, which makes their moveset data still completely relevant information. Readers should be able to know the frame data of Giga Bowser's moves, or how early Duon's moves will kill you, or how to most effectively DI Dracula's moves, or how big the hitbox of Male Wireframe's u-tilt is, and so on, to be able to most effectively fight these characters. It's not like any other respected wiki will neglect data for NPC characters just because they aren't playable, like imagine going to a wiki to find the data of some boss giving you grief and the wiki doesn't have it. Also, while a recurring NPC's moveset may not gain many new moves across games, their data still very much changes and should be documented (much like how that it is for playable characters, who gain few if any new moves but get significant balance adjustments that still makes it necessary to document their movesets on a per-game basis). Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 01:08, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * I absolutely agree to giving them more detailed moveset tables, maybe even separate hitbox data pages like the ones that exist for fighters, but with a few exceptions, not extra pages for the NPC's appearance in the specific game. A big problem can be seen for smash-original bosses, as all of their origin/gallery/trivia sections would be entirely relegated to one page the origin page while the other one is purely moveset data that can easily be on the same page, and doesn't waste time having the same infobox on two pages. I still stand by that stage hazards, including so-called stage bosses (which only have around three attacks aside from Ridley), are not notable enough to have dedicated specific game pages. If Galleom's two moveset tables causes his page to load too slowly, I can see it can be split, but single-game bosses absolutely can just get the moveset table on their main page. Also, Plague is specifically mentioning Rayquaza a lot, does he have a lot of data that can let you control him compared to other bosses like Porky and Meta Ridley? Again, though, more detailed moveset tables are a very good idea. Unnamed anon (talk) 01:25, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * I'm mentioning Rayquaza solely for the sake of argument. Happens to have a good bit, but still, plucked out of the air for familiarity's sake. It's notable that detailed moveset sections can be quite daunting, as seen in SSBB Giga Bowser's page where the angles and whatnot take up significant space.
 * I think you're making the issue with Smash originals far larger than it is. If you look at how I went about SSBM Giga Bowser with my draft you'll see that much of the information there was entirely unique and didn't take away from the content on the "mother page" at all. It's almost all analysis on how everything plays out. We already have pages for characters in a general sense and their fighter appearances, and I don't think characters like Galleom or Duon would suffer for this. -PlagueSigImage.png Plague  von Karma PlagueSigImage.png 01:33, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * As long as "stage bosses" do not get separate pages (they can be easily relegated to either their own page or the stage's page due to a lack of moves aside from Ridley, and what actually counts as a "stage boss" is kind of gray), I think you make solid points. For bosses with multiple forms like Master Core and Dracula, would each form get a separate page? Aside from the Hands, who already have pages, I'm assuming the new pages will be the following: Giga Bowser in Melee and Ultimate, All Subspace Bosses, all World of Light bosses, Master Core's forms, both Wireframes, all four Alloys, 64 Metal Mario, and 64 Giant DK. I'm admittedly still a little curious on how it should be made clear that Ridley was not playable in Brawl. Unnamed anon (talk) 01:55, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * I am not fussed about stage bosses and haven't been for this entire discussion. I'm merely concerned about the ones you have specifically outlined there: Giga Bowser in Melee and Ultimate, All Subspace Bosses, all World of Light bosses, Master Core's forms, both Wireframes, all four Alloys, 64 Metal Mario, and 64 Giant DK. Ridley can easily be referred to as an unplayable character just as I did for my SSBM Giga Bowser draft. --PlagueSigImage.png Plague  von Karma PlagueSigImage.png 02:34, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * Apologies, I have had experiences arguing about stage bosses; this isn't one of them, and I'm glad you let me know. I think this list is pretty solid, and now fully agree with what you're doing. Something I'm still curious about is if Master Core and Dracula would get separate pages for each form. If so, for Master Core, I assume only Beast, Giant, Edges, and maybe Fortress would need extra pages, as Shadow is just the character you're playing and the final Core has one attack. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:42, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * They sound like single pages with a bunch of headers to me. Bit yucky, but hey. --PlagueSigImage.png Plague  von Karma PlagueSigImage.png 02:45, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * If you're not a fan of having separate pages for Dracula and Master Core's different forms, let's keep those on their single dedicated boss pages then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unnamed anon (talk • contribs) 03:51, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * They're all one boss fight, so it makes sense. In the interests of consistency they'd be under a Master Core (SSB4) and Dracula (SSBU) thing with phase dividers featuring redirects, at least in my mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plague von Karma (talk • contribs) 04:12, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

I don't see any reason to not allow this. We just need to be careful that such pages look more like boss/etc pages than playable character pages, to reduce confusion. Toomai Glittershine The Obfuscating 07:34, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

Meant to post here earlier but totally slipped my mind. Supporting as well, echoing the above. Ultimate Toad,  the Toad Warrior.  (I'm the best!)  08:56, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

Echoing OT's comment, if we want to be a comprehensive wiki, we should have all the data—including bosses, Final Smash transformations, and "only by hacks" characters. Aidan  the Springing Gamer  10:00, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

I ended up making a Metal Mario (SSB) page (userspaced, of course) while looking into how the character operates, so I'm just noting it here. With the SSBM Giga Bowser and this you can probably better-discern what I'm going for. I did the model render myself using an extracted model from Model's Resource, came out pretty nicely. -- Plague  von Karma  21:03, May 3, 2023 (EDT)

So now there's a Rayquaza (SSBB) page to show off what the Brawl stuff will look like if you're still interested in this being allowed through. Played a bunch of games with friends to evaluate each one, so I'm capable of going through them all at a later date. Toomai suggested I make a Template for these given their odd nature, but that didn't go well, would appreciate someone going through this with an iron-toothed comb to make it less awful. I've also added a nice little italic thing about the specifities of the page (went with "debug-playable" but could possibly be improved). With that, I believe I've got everything up that would demonstrate how these pages will go, and any feedback or edits are welcomed. -- Plague  von Karma  02:05, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

I know there's no voting section yet, but I totally support this. Everything else has seemingly already been said. I think it's a wonderful idea. Aykrivwassup (talk) 10:39, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

Seems like a self-explanatory support. I agree with OT here, they should get more documentation as they're boss characters that have their own movesets and frame data. Cookies Creme  11:18, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

Support, it's a good idea to go into detail about them. --Meester Tweester (talk) 13:17, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

Support echoing the above. I'd recommend touching up the unplayable characters infobox after the pages have been mainspaced, though. ShootingStar7X (talk) 14:51, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

With ample consensus and more than enough time passing for any opposition to make their voices heard, I'm passing this proposal, and the go-ahead is given to create these articles. Omega  Tyrant   13:32, May 10, 2023 (EDT)