Talk:Hero/Archive 1

Handling the separate characters
How are we gonna go about this? I could see a case for keeping them merged a la Pokemon Trainer, but Red and Leaf are traditionally just genderswaps of the same character (with only Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee depicting them otherwise, and the female trainer there is debatably not the same person) like Robin/Corrin, whereas all of these characters are technically different characters with different histories. TheNuttyOne 13:46, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * In my opinion it'd be best to cover them all on this page, where the intro text is general and the individual histories are in subsections. I wouldn't be averse to multiple infoboxes on the page, either. Miles ( talk)   13:52, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I’m with Miles on this. However, we don’t need multiple infoboxes. We have a tabber for a reason. We just need to put in each Hero’s image into the main info box and list each first appearance. I know that the first appearance section may look bloated, but it’ll look even more bloated with multiple infoboxes. Lou Cena (talk) 14:02, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Erm. Thought.

The Hero's Final Smash summons other heroes fron other games.

We make pages for characters featured in Final Smashes.

That's eleven different characters, each with unique backstories and appearances, all sharing one page.

That's gonna look sloppy as heck. Just saying. TheNuttyOne 03:00, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

The Hero from III is Erdrick, The Hero from IV is Solo, The Hero from VIII is Eight as based off of his Promotional Material in both Japanese and International Releases and the same with the Hero from XI who's name is Eleven, it's not that hard guys just ask people who've been playing the games and know the material.
 * People who played the games seem to disagree on it too. Lou Cena (talk) 22:25, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Name
Now that we've established that his name is not "Irebun", should we refer to him as "The Luminary" or just "Luminary"? Arqade  (Talk)  20:59, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hopefully just “Luminary”. He was called “The Hero” in the trailer despite only being called Hero ingame, probably because the announcer yelling “The Hero!!” would sound awkward. We should probably call him just “Luminary” to make things easier to read. Lou Cena (talk) 21:01, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Heroes' Names
There have been conflict on which names should be used for the Heroes. On the Dragon Quest wiki, the Heroes are referred to as Irebun (Dragon Quest XI), Erdrick (Dragon Quest III), Solo (Dragon Quest IV), and Eight (Dragon Quest VIII). Shouldn't these be what we refer to them as? It appears that is what the Dragon Quest community refers to them by. At least, the community in charge of the Dragon Quest wiki anyway. &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:01, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * "Irebun" is apparently a transliteration of the Japanese word for "Eleven", and was only used in promos and the such. From what I've heard, he's only referred to as "the Luminary" in DQXI, and as such, should be referred to as that here. MrGame&WatchHeadRedSSB4-U.png Arqade  (Talk)  21:10, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Then why is he referred to as "Irebun" on the DQ Wiki? I know SmashWiki does its own thing, but we need a foundation for it. Like with Leaf, do more people refer to him as "Irebun" or "Luminary"? &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:13, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I honestly don't entirely know for sure. I'm not really a DQ fan (although I have dabbled a tiny bit with the first and third game) so I'm just going off what I've heard from others here on SmashWiki. MrGame&WatchHeadRedSSB4-U.png Arqade   (Talk)  21:16, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * We need to find some consistency before we start edit conflicts on the pages. With Leaf, SmashWiki uses "Leaf" over "Green/Blue" as that is what she is more community known as by the community. People on Bulbapedia are still discussing that character's name because of Let's Go. Despite them using both "Leaf" and "Green/Blue", we use "Leaf" for the reason stated before, as well as there is no official confirmation that the two are one and the same. In Joker's case, he is a character that can be named and has had two official names. Ren, and Akira, both of which people in the Persona community use frequently. However, Akira was only used in the manga adaptation of Persona 5, while Ren is used in all of Joker's video game appearances outside of the game Persona 5. Until we have more, knowledgeable Dragon Quest users, we should use the Dragon Quest wiki has a placeholder, at least for now. &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:24, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Sounds good to me. MrGame&WatchHeadRedSSB4-U.png Arqade  (Talk)  21:26, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Alright. &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:29, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I say that we put the names that there are mostly commonly known by kinda like what Wolff mentioned. Every DQ protagonist in this game (except the one from II) is or was simply called "Hero" or  in Japanese. Even Erdrick (Loto), the most iconic DQ character is called "勇者/主人公" until he beats the final boss. However, as you can probably tell nobody calls him that anymore and instead all of the DQ community refers to him as Erdrick. I'd say, if the characters have an official name, or are commonly referred to by another name (The Luminary/Luminary for example, even the English promotional works use this name) just use them, and only use "Hero" or "The Hero" if speaking broadly. WolfBloodSpam (talk) 22:02, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * We need more opinions on the matter. It'd probably be easier is more fans of DQ, or at least ones of DQXI were helping. Irebun apparently has been used on the Dragon Quest Wiki since 2017. &#32;Wolff (talk) 22:46, June 11, 2019 (EDT)

Big DQ fan here, The heroes from Dragon Quest don't have definitive canon names. At all. "Eleven" is a name used generically as a placeholder in marketing screenshots, but for the most part, and most of the time, they're just referred to in generic terms or titles. Here's what they're generally called: I hope this clears things up a little, I think the article should be changed to not refer to the heroes with specific names since none are used to refer to them much, or at least change Erdrick at the very least. Also "Irebun" is not and has never been a name used to refer to the Hero in English, it's just a reading of the Japanese pronunciation of "Eleven" in English. If that's been used on the DQ wiki, that needs fixed ASAP since that's not his name at all. BubbleRevolution (talk) 22:54, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Dragon Quest XI: The Hero is given the title of "The Luminary" most of the time. "Eleven" is a name used in most of the marketing media and stuff, and while it's the closest thing to a default name he has, like I said, there aren't definitive canon names for any of them.
 * Dragon Quest III: Referred to as the "Legendary Hero" in crossovers. Has no actual definitive default name. "Arus" is used in a lot of promo material and "Arel" is used in the novelization, but neither are considered his actual canon name. "Erdrick" is a title given to him, but he's literally never been called "Erdrick" any time he's actually appeared in person, it's usually only used long after he's presumably died and has become a mythical figure at that point, and generally shouldn't be used as a name for him on Wiki articles.
 * Dragon Quest IV: Usually referred to generically as the "Zenithian Hero", but that's not really used much. "Solo" is used in crossovers, and is his default name, but again, isn't treated as definitively canon unlike protagonists like Cloud or something. Usually just referred to as the hero of DQ4.
 * Dragon Quest VIII: Doesn't really have a title. "Eight" is used similarly to "Eleven" as a placeholder name in a lot of promo material, and has been used for him in crossover spin-offs, but again, not really a definitive name.
 * Perhaps it would be more beneficial to leave the names alone until he is released. Hero is going to have a Spirit from Classic mode. Other characters with alts, Cloud, Bayo, Joker, and ones with alt characters, Olimar, Bowser Jr., all have separate Spirits. Assuming Hero will follow suit, the Spirits will name the alts, if not just "Hero (#)". &#32;Wolff (talk) 23:04, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hi. Also a big DQ fan. I would like to just say that Solo is used in the core games. Specifically it is used in the DS remake of Dragon Quest VI. In the post-game dungeon/village, past Dragon Quest characters will appear, including the Hero and Heroine of Dragon Quest IV, who are named Solo and Sophia, respectively. Since this name is used in a core title, it's probably the closest thing to a "canon" name for the Zenithian hero. Anyway, I thought I'd add my anonymous two cents. 71.232.97.2 23:36, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think even if the Spirits come out and they called them "Hero (#)" we should keep the names somewhat. To me, referring them as "Hero (DQ XI) or Hero (DQ III) every time will get receptive and confusing for people who aren't familiar with the series. WolfBloodSpam (talk) 23:44, June 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I suppose that could be confusing. The Dragon Quest wiki says on their info boxes that III's is titled "Erdrick ", IV's is named "Solo", VIII's is named "Eight", and XI's is "Irebun". At the top of their info boxes, they are referred to as Hero/Heroine, except for XI who has Luminary. Luminary is used as the same word as Hero in the paragraphs, meaning its not used as their name. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:03, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Those aren't their names, though. Not officially, anyway. The DQ wikia isn't always managed super well either, so there's a fair amount of clutter and outdated info. Also, "Irebun" has never been used, you're reading the romaji pronunciation of "Eleven". Saying Hero (insert game number here) isn't that confusing. The spirits are going to be direct sources pertaining to Smash, so the names there should be used before placeholder names that aren't definitively official. BubbleRevolution (talk) 01:10, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

I think it's worth noting that the NIWA has its own Dragon Quest wiki, which, at the time of this writing, is down - once it gets back up, I will check to see what it says, since, in previous experiences, the NIWA is more trustworthy of a source than Fandom/Wikia. Aidan, the Rurouni  00:17, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Why not just look at official footage of the game Dragon Quest 11 in English from Square Enix or Nintendo? In all that footage the hero for Dragon Quest 11's name is Eleven. Not Irebun. Eleven. It's pretty clear. Also in game, he is referred to as The Luminary. Either of those 2 are more canon than Irebun. --70.32.0.121 00:24, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * As per Aidan's suggestion, we should wait until NIWA Dragon Quest wiki is back up, and see if the names differ. How coincidental that the DQ wiki happened go down after the reveal. It's kind of funny. Like in hindsight when Joker was released. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:31, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * How is an outdated wiki (both DQ wikis are outdated btw) more credible than official game footage from both Nintendo and Square Enix? Both Nintendo and Square Enix call him Eleven. --70.32.0.104 00:38, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * How do you know that it's outdated if we can't accesses it right now? For all we know, it could have gone down due to an overload of edits or something. We will compare both of Nintendo's videos, as well as any discussions on the Wiki regarding the names of the Heroes. It's possible it has some information in relation that we don't have. Plus, until a game comes out, names used in trailers are considered placeholder. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:58, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Just a heads up, you shouldn't really take other wikis as gospel. I've contributed to the DQ wiki, and like any wiki, there's gonna be an amount of erroneous info because it's all user-contributed. Official sources should be used first and foremost, and in most official sources, they're just called "Hero" or by a generic title. BubbleRevolution (talk) 01:10, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know it's outdated because I've browsed it before it went down. The dragon quest wikis that currently exist are not good sources of info. The suggestion that there was a mass rush to update the entire wiki instead of just an increase in traffic due to the announcement is absurd. You're exactly right in that the names used in the trailers are placeholders because the heroes do not have canon names besides 4's protagonist. It's just that the community uses these names to refer to these characters because they don't have canon names and it's a lot easier than saying "the protagonist of X." If you want to use the names that are used most commonly by the community, use Eleven, Erdrick, Solo, and Eight. --68.97.103.59 01:12, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * We are only using them because we don't really have much else to use, outdated or not. Is it possible for you to explain why the fanon DQ wiki has been using "Irebun" for DQXI's hero since 2017? &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:17, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Whoever wrote out the romaji for イレブン on that wiki decided to literally transliterate it as Irebun, instead of writing it as the english word Eleven, for whatever reason. Even if you refuse to take into account official sources or community consensus, if you look at the actual wiki page, you'll find that it's inconsistent in how it refers to the protagonist of DQXI and that there's no reason to choose Irebun. The article is titled "Hero (Dragon Quest XI)" and the actual page refers to him as "The Luminary." The only place on the page that says "Irebun" is for the romaji of the japanese name, which isn't even correct. イレブン is his Japanese name as much as Eleven is his english name. Both are used in the same contexts in promotional material and by the community. --68.97.103.59 01:24, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

...I'm confused why this argument is happening? Wasn't it started with "geez wish we had a DQ fan around"? We have two now and both are telling us straight-up that there is no official name nor commonly used name. Whether you like it or not, that's the answer you asked for. It's time to switch it to just say what game they're from. TheNuttyOne 01:27, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

If you really do care, though, NIWA DQ wiki is back up. It calls all four heroes just "Hero" most of the time, but occasionally switches it out for Luminary in the case of XI, Erdrick for III, and states that Solo is the default name for IV. Still, I would trust our local experts over a wiki. TheNuttyOne 01:31, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Even I'll admit this is getting ridiculous. Any wiki is imperfect - even we admit that ourselves - so it shouldn't be taken as "this and only this". If "Eleven" is what is being used in the same vein as "Eight", regardless of whether or not it's "unofficially, but commonly accepted" or "officially by both Nintendo and Square", then that is what we shall use. Aidan,  the Rurouni  01:36, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Thinking about it, is it really necessary to use their "names" outside of their Origin section? Would we have more consistency if we used their Roman Numerals anywhere else? I could be wrong though. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:40, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, just using the numerals would be more accurate I feel. I think mentioning the default/promotional names (Erdrick should specifically be mentioned as a title, in every crossover he's been in he's only been called "Legendary Hero") in the origin section would be more fitting unless they're referred to as such in Smash. BubbleRevolution (talk) 01:44, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * That's also assuming that they all will share one "Character Page", despite technically being different people entirely. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:42, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Wouldn't that create a consistency? Alph, Koopalings? Actually, I guess it could work like the Koopalings. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:49, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Maybe we shouldn't name them at all if we can't find a canon name for them, just refer them by their game of origin. -- PanchamHeadIconFanart.png Pancham (talk • contributions) 08:27, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Dedicated pages for alternate costumes are only created if they are different characters and the fighter's name is changed accordingly. This is why Alph and the Koopalings have pages, but Leaf doesn't. Creating a page for each Hero would create an inconsistency. NokiiSig.png Nokii — 10:29, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

So what's going to happen then? The past few hours I've seen the page a ridiculous amount of times. Is this page going with numbers or sticking with promotional names and titles? Is it normal for there to be so much of a back and forth? User: Castiglione 5:37 PM, June 12, 2019
 * I don't think they need to be named since they use generic name in Smash, just mention it and redirection, as we did with the Persona protagonist.--Capstalker (talk) 12:46, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

Here’s my two cents: All of the protagonists are classified under the generic name “Hero,” and the Dragon Quest Wiki acknowledges the DQ11 Hero as the Luminary. Since there aren’t any other heroes in the DQ series going under the title of “Luminary,” we know for sure that the one and only thing that fulfills both requirements of a protagonist in the series and the distinct title of Luminary goes to the DQ11 protagonist. It also helps that the promotional material for the Switch version refers to the Hero as the Luminary. And besides if we’re gonna refer to the DQ3 Hero as Erdrick (a title and not a definitive name), calling the DQ11 Hero “Eleven” would be inconsistent with that naming convention. It’s calling Corrin “the Avatar” (which he technically is) even though Robin is the one who’s been referred to by that title. ——DatAlphaLion

Regarding names
Heya folks, following up on Aidanzapunk's invitation to join the discussion. Officially, Erdrick, Solo, and Luminary are used to refer to III, IV, and XI's heroes respectively--Erdrick is actually a title that refers to multiple characters but has been associated with that particular hero since the late 80's and that's not going to change any time soon. As pointed out by an anonymous editor above, IV's hero has been referred to as Solo/Sofia in the remake of VI on top of crossover promotional material. "Irebun" is just a transliteration of Eleven as stated above, and isn't even from a manga or anything as they are all referred to as numbers at some point in manual screenshots and so forth. He's been dubbed the Luminary in just about every piece of promotional material available thus far.

The only one who truly lacks any agreed upon nickname is the hero of VIII, who has been referred to as The Guv by his party members in the game (most often by Yangus), and occasionally as Trodain by fans, which is based on the kingdom he hails from as well as the fandom's tendency to use hometown's in lieu of actual names when they are unavailable.

Personally, I would use the titles and names that have been used in the fandom for decades in regards to the older characters, Luminary for XI's hero, and Eight or Trodain for man rocking the bandanna until nintendo releases official descriptors. These just roll off the tough more easily than having to say "the hero from DQ IV" over and over in my opinion. (Follower of Light (talk) 16:50, June 12, 2019 (EDT))
 * I agree with this. It seems unanimous hat we should use Erdrick and Solo. Since Luminary is the character’s title, and Irebun is just eleven in Japanese, we should stick with Luminary. As for Eight, I prefer not using the numbers unless that’s his actual name. We should use he fans’ names, so it should probably be Luminary, Erdrick, Solo, and Trodian. Lou Cena (talk) 17:01, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * If Guv, Trodain, and Luminary are indeed what the majority of the DQ community uses, then I do not see a problem with that, as it is same reason the female Pokemon Trainer is referred to as Leaf on here, its what the majority of the Pokemon community uses to refer to that specific design. &#32;Wolff (talk) 16:59, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think that, if the most agreed upon name is "Guv" (note the use of "occasionally" with Trodain), then that is what shall be used. No NIWA wiki is official (to my knowledge, anyway), and using fanmade terms is not something we're new to. Aidan,  the Rurouni  17:19, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * DQ fan here again to step in with some insight into the community. I've never heard anyone call Eight "Guv" or "Trodain." The only person who calls him Guv is the character Yangus in the game. In the game, Eight is a soldier of the kingdom of Trodain, but no one calls him Trodain in the game and I've never heard anyone in the community call him Trodain instead of Eight. The only name that people call him is Eight. The name Eight has even been semi-officially used in the japanese-only spinoff card game Dragon Quest Rivals. He is a card in the game and he's referred to as Eight. As for my thoughts on DQXI's hero, he is mostly referred to by Eleven by the community. The Luminary is a title he's given in the game but it's less commonly used by the community unless they're trying to be official and only use what's used in the game, which is probably why the wiki uses The Luminary. If you want to stick closer to the game's official canon, use The Luminary, but if you want to use what the community says, use Eleven.--68.97.103.59 18:21, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * As for Eleven, if "Luminary" is also used as such (most popularly used name), then we shall go with that too. Aidan,  the Rurouni  17:22, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Going to need a citation there 68.97.103.59, lots of fans use the hometowns as stand ins for proper names as seen on Woodus.com, and the cosplay gear for past heroes in DQ IX even uses the home town names to describe the articles of clothing. I don't want this to turn into an edit war, but using numbers exclusively is dull and the logic comes off as faulty. As for the card game, those are read as "The hero of DQ 8, 7, 6, etc" instead of simply by the number. (Follower of Light (talk) 19:11, June 12, 2019 (EDT))

Sorry but Follower of Light. I have not once ever since the original games have been out ever seen anybody ever refer to the Heroes with their home town. Not in Woodus either and I've been there for many years as a lurker. The instance in IX you're using is referring to clothing. Not the Hero. Same deal with Guv. Yangus aside and maybe Jessica like once nobody else calls him Guv. I see 99% of the people call him Eight and XI's hero Eleven. - Eggs From Lightning
 * I'm going to try and decipher what you typed as best as I can. First, you're using anecdotal accounts to support your claim without providing supporting evidence--I can say my uncle helped Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing in 1492 but that doesn't make it true. As for the cosplay gear, the town names are used because every piece of gear has the character's name on it, from Yangus' titfer to Milly's sandals. So town names are not only used in the games themselves, they're recognized by squenix as sounding more natural than roman numerals. The cosplay gear for VIII's hero is even dubbed "The Trodain" in the international version of XI, so it wasn't a one-off notion for IX.(Follower of Light (talk) 07:51, June 13, 2019 (EDT))
 * How exactly do you expect us to provide evidence of what the community as a whole says? Do you want us to conduct a survey or something? You have like 3 people in here telling you that you're wrong and that no one calls them by their hometown. Your clothes argument is a completely invalid comparison. The heroes don't have canon names, so their clothes don't use their names. It's not saying that their hometown is their name just because their clothes are described by their hometown. It's saying that the clothes are from that place. If you read the description for the heroes' armors in DQIX, you'll see that they explicitly call the heroes something along the lines of "a hero," not their hometown. Aliahan Clothes: "A supple suit supposedly sported by a legendary hero." Zenithian Clothes: "An unadorned outfit worn by a hero of Zenithia." Trodain Togs: "The type of suit a certain Trodain trooper would be tricked out in." It's clearly not saying that their names are Aliahan, Zenithia, and Trodain. Same thing with the Trodain Togs in XI. The cosplay items for the party members are even obtained in an entirely different context in IX than the hero cosplay items. In IX, you get the party member's items through talking to them in the Inn. You get the hero items through drops from post-game legacy bosses. I don't know why you think the hometowns are "recognized by squenix" when not only are they explicitly NOT naming them after their hometown, and the names they actually use are the numbers. Maybe not in-game, but they certainly hold more water than naming them after their hometown. Also, I'll address the rivals card again while I'm typing this out. The card in question is named "Yuusha Eight", which you could take as "Eighth Hero" or "Eight the Hero" but certainly not "The Hero of Dragon Quest Eight." --68.97.103.59 13:55, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

What in the world are you guys doing? Eleven the Luminary?! Eight the Guv? People don't refer to VIII's Hero as Guv. Only a specific character does. The cosplay gear in IX only has named party member's armor to be named after them i.e "Milly's Sandals". The Heroes armor will obviously not be named because they have no canon name. Just because they are referenced in this instance by their hometown does not mean us fans call them that. Calling the Hero of III Aliahan is stupid. Nobody does that. You people clearly haven't played the series ever and just did a quick bit of research. The "Guv" mistake I'll give you slack for. Somebody from here went onto the DQ wiki and added that Guv bit. (IMainSamus)

Seeing as how discussion has died down, and taking into consideration everything that has been said here and in the Discord from Dragon Quest fans across the board, I believe this conclusion has been reached: If anyone would like to object to this before I attempt to end this discussion/debate once and for all, speak now or forever hold your peace. Aidan, the Rurouni  13:51, June 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * The Hero from XI is referred to as "Luminary".
 * The Hero from III is referred to as "Erdrick".
 * The Hero from IV is referred to as "Solo".
 * The Hero from VIII is referred to as "Eight".


 * I'll give my final thoughts on Eleven vs Luminary. I think either is a fine name to pick. In my experience, I see more fans call him Eleven then the Luminary but maybe the users in the discord have seen Luminary more. Though, I would like to give some thoughts on the name Luminary, because while it's 90% associated with the hero of DQXI, that's not the only place the term has been used in Dragon Quest. When DQII got a mobile port and thus a modern localization, they gave it the subtitle "Luminaries of the Legendary Line". So, the Dragon Quest localization team might be using Luminary to refer to people related to the line of Erdrick. Granted, from what I remember the word Luminary is used nowhere in the actual game. The term Luminary is also used in a completely different context in DQ. In games that use the vocation (class) system, there's a class called "Luminary" which isn't related to heroes at all. Luminary is being used in the sense of a star, like a movie star; it's a show-offy support class that can charm the enemy. The original Japanese name is "Super Star," so they don't have any relation outside of the localizations, but it's something to keep in mind. --68.97.103.59 14:44, June 13, 2019 (EDT)

I object to the Hero of XI being called Luminary. Promotional material refers to him as Eleven. In game characters call him Luminary in which that is his title but the character itself is always named Eleven in both American and Japanese promos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PitplustwoisPittoo (talk • contribs) 14:11, June 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * A quick tip, use ~ to sign your comments. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  14:32, June 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Then it would seem, as ironic as it is to say, that the names we put in place while this discussion happened didn't need to be changed at all. I will still wait for anyone to say something contradictory, should they feel the need to do so, but if no one speaks up, then I will be removing the notices on account of a consensus being reached based on evidence from people familiar with this franchise. Aidan,  the Rurouni  14:59, June 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Reading over this page, I'm taken aback at how heated people are getting over this and not to mention how cluttered this page has become. Aidanzapunk, you're the moderator and I will respect what decision you make in regards to this matter but I will state that there hasn't been a consensus at all. I personally find the insistence on calling XI's hero "Eleven" to be wrong--every hero with a title has been given a number as a placeholder name in screenshots since the late 80's, but that hasn't stopped people from calling III's hero Erdrick for twenty years. The most current hero has been referred to as the Luminary in official media more often than he has been called Eleven, and as such it would be intellectually dishonest to say that the logic of applying titles should only affect Erdrick when the same circumstances apply to the new guy. As for people claiming the usage of town names to refer to past heroes is irrelevant, I bring that up because it is a decision made by squenix to describe characters that officially have no name--simply being stubborn and saying that the two-fold, official occurrence does not "count" is just childish. On the notion of immaturity, this discussion has grown oddly petty--everyone here is either a fan of the DQ series or wants to make the smash wiki as accurate as possible; this isn't a place for bickering about who is a bigger fan or knows more.


 * What I propose is that XI's hero is referred to as the Luminary (no capitalization on the) for the same reasons that Erdrick and Solo are used for their respective characters: no one else in the series is associated with that particular title (or actual name in the latter's case) and in addition it is used extensively in marketing and the game itself as a logical way to get around the ability for players to name the protagonist whatever they want in a voiced game. As for the hero of VIII, this is the most heated part of the debate as he's never been given a nickname or title outside of Guv, and this was meant as term of endearment by his friends instead of any accolade of renown bequeathed to him. Until Nintendo presents an alternative, I suggest keeping it as Eight for the time being. As I said earlier Aidanzapunk, you are the moderator and I will respect the decision you make for the page's direction, and I thank you for giving me the invitation to weigh in and share my thoughts on the matter.(Follower of Light (talk) 22:05, June 13, 2019 (EDT))


 * I'd like to propose changing "Erdrick" to "Legendary Hero", since as I've previously mentioned, the character isn't ever referred to as Erdrick in any of his appearances, and all crossover games call him simply "Legendary Hero", even when the other heroes are given names in the same games, like Solo and Eight. BubbleRevolution (talk) 01:32, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I disagree. He is quite specifically referred to as "Erdrick" at the ending of (at least the NES version) of Dragon Quest III. The new title may just be a result of the different possible names he has, depending on whether the Famicom, NES, or Game Boy version was the one being played, and even then the first two can work alongside one another since they're in separate languages. Not to mention this is the specific hero that is alluded to multiple times in the original Dragon Quest through a grave and certain equipment. --73.220.19.65 01:38, June 14, 2019 (EDT)


 * I agree with 73.220.29.65, III's hero should be called Erdrick. The character has a set of equipment that bares the name in multiple titles, not to mention real world merchandise, and the fact that he's dubbed Erdrick in the finale of all versions of his game. Bubblerevolution, you insist that III's hero isn't referred to as Erdrick when in fact the opposite is true in two sets of localizations of the original trilogy, not to mention equipment cameos in VIII's 3DS port and IX--why do you want his title to be stripped from him?(Follower of Light (talk) 09:38, June 14, 2019 (EDT))
 * My point isn't that he's NEVER been called Erdrick, it's that it's never used as his NAME save for games where he doesn't actually appear. Every single time he shows up in a crossover, "Erdrick"/"Roto" has never been used, it's always just "Legendary Hero". In every single source I can find, Japanese and English, "Roto" is never used as a name from DQ3 when he actually appears, in every crossover title he's been in. It's about reflecting what he's officially named in most circumstances.BubbleRevolution (talk) 15:35, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Again, refer back to my message, specifically "The new title may just be a result of the different possible names he has, depending on whether the Famicom, NES, or Game Boy version was the one being played". Also Roto is the title given to him in the Japanese Famicom version (where Erdrick was used in the NES version). Besides, even though Smash itself is a fighting game, we should use the name given in the original canon rather than crossover games. --73.220.19.65 01:15, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) I have mostly been watching from the sidelines (I don't know jack about Dragon Quest, so it's not like I can majorly contribute), though I would like to say a couple things: Aidan, the Rurouni  12:38, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * 1) I do have to agree, this discussion has gotten a bit out of hand, which is why I'm attempting to put my foot down (though not in an "I'm the admin, I make the rules around here, I say we do this" way, but rather in an "if this is what you guys can at least agree on, then that is the end of discussion" way) - it seems as though my earlier statement about consensus was mistaken, since there appears to be much more debate on the matter than I initially thought.
 * 2) I cannot speak for the Dragon Quest wiki, but I can say that we at SmashWiki are not official, and we often use fanmade terms to describe something rather than an official name (a good example is Brawl's tripping mechanic, which is, as of late, officially called "pratfalling", but we still refer to it as "tripping" on the wiki). As such, if fans know a character with no official name by a certain other name (such as Erdrick for III's Hero or Eight for VIII's Hero), then we parrot that over here as well. With the case of the Luminary, the name seems to be a mix of both fan and official recognition - even I recall hearing "Luminary" on more than one occasion with the Dragon Quest XI portion of the February Nintendo Direct. I too have to agree that asking for an official name and then ignoring official recognition of a fan-accepted name is confusing.
 * Good news: I think everyone can agree on the names for Erdrick, Solo, and Eight now. It’s “Eleven”/Luminary that I’m worried about now. I do agree with you that we should at least acknowledge the fact that “Eleven” is officially called Luminary. While yes, this wiki is not official, I personally prefer using the official name except in very specific cases where nobody would know what the official name is. For example, calling pratfalling tripping is fine, because that’s a much more common word and people will understand it more (and judging by my spellcheck, it’s not even a real word in english anyways). However, with Luminary, he’s the first Dragon Quest character to actually have an official name that’s recognized in the trailers I believe (I also don’t know jack about Dragon Quest, but judging by these posts, Erdrick and Solo are only titles). Since we use the titles for Erdrick and Solo, we should use the title for Luminary for consistency. As for Eight, he’s an exception, as he apparently doesn’t have an official title like the other ones. Lou Cena (talk) 13:48, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Personally I prefer Irebun because it feels more stylized and sets him apart from Eight who's already named after an (English) number, but I'll go with the flow. Also to clear up something, Solo is in fact a name, though like Ness and Lucas it's the first default name for the male protagonist in Dragon Quest IV. Also Erdrick may be a name as well, I just refer to it as a title because it's more given to him. --73.220.19.65 13:52, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Are we in agreement, then? Luminary for XI, Erdrick for III, Solo for IV, and Eight for VIII? I will again ask for anyone who wishes to argue to speak up if they wish to - if not, then I will happily close this discussion on account of an agreement/consensus being reached. Aidan,  the Rurouni  14:14, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think we have a winning set, and I can only see Eight being changed in light of Nintendo or Square Enix slapping a name under him on one of their websites. In all other cases, the two titles and actual given name should be used.(Follower of Light (talk) 16:06, June 14, 2019 (EDT))
 * Yep, I'd say we could use those names. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer  Leave a message if needed 17:09, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * So is it okay to change Eleven to Luminary? If nobody objects to doing so within the next two days, I think we’ve reached a consensus. Lou Cena (talk) 19:10, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * But what about the other seven Heroes? If we are treating the page based on the shared title and not the individual characters, then there isn't really a need to specifically name them outside of the Origin page. &#32;Wolff (talk) 19:18, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * We’ll most likely need these names for the tabber on the fighter page (I know we should probably wait until they release and receive their spirits, but those will probably just say the game anyways, which will look terrible if we say “Dragon Quest XI” or the other numbers for each tab title). Either we only use the Roman Numerals for the tabs or we use Luminary, Erdrick, Solo, and Eight. The other seven don’t even need to be named, since they aren’t being put in their own infobox. We just need to say that the other seven protagonists show up in the four playable ones’ final smash. Lou Cena (talk) 19:27, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * But we are having this character page be of the Dragon Quest Hero role itself, not just the fighters, they get their fighter page for that. Characters that appear as part of a character's move set, the Final Smash in this case, get their own pages as well. Since no one wants to separate them (which would cause the naming confusion again), it would make more sense to refer to them by their numeral. That's why we just put the debut and console of origin of the first Hero, it would too cluttered otherwise. Are the names really important? Live with VI, what is the difference between saying Six instead ofVI? (We probably won't reach a concrete form of an agreement until the Hero's release). We would still need a way to refer to the other Heroes. &#32;Wolff (talk) 20:48, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

So, have we reached an agreement on names? Asking so I know whether or not to include this when I archive the talk page. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 01:07, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Aside from Wolff, everybody agrees that out winning set is Luminary, Erdrick, Solo, and Eight, though what Wolff is suggesting is referring to all of them by only their numerals instead of a name. I think that if we reach a consensus that we should use the names in the first place (which honestly feels like either we have to wait on or go unofficial for a little bit to make the tabs more readable), then we should change Eleven to Luminary and keep the other three as is. Lou Cena (talk) 01:18, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also I'm arguing with someone named BubbleRevolution on whether III's protagonist should be Erdrick or Legendary Hero though as far as I know he's the only one who's in favor of that. --73.220.19.65 01:21, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Would it not make things easier to resume this discussion until after the Hero is released? &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:52, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

Playable Heroes and Final Smash Heroes Pages
I am quite interested in how we will separate the Heroes from Dragon Quest on the Wiki. Four of the are playable, and the other eight appear as the former's Final Smash. Alph has his own character page, but the Koopalings share a character page. The Heroes would be like the Koopalings with a shared character page as a fighter in Smash, they are technically the same character. However, what of the eight that only appear in the Final Smash? Characters that appear in a character's move set or taunts, including their Final Smash have gotten their own pages. Currently, only the four playable Heroes share a character page. Should the other eight be added as well since they are all Dragon Quest Heroes? Or should we have each with their own character page since they are technically different characters? If those two options do not seem optimal, Is there a way we can have a separate character page for the other eight outside of the Final Smash (like the other characters)? If so, I just do not know what we would name the page so it does not conflict. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:02, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I would argue that, given how the Hero page itself already covers the playable ones, and the term "hero" is the catch-all for "main playable character from Dragon Quest", noting the non-playable ones on the same page as the playable ones would not be a bad thing to do. But I'm willing to be proven otherwise. Aidan,  the Rurouni  00:10, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Would it be too far-fetched to have all the unplayable heroes on one, separate page? --73.220.19.65 00:55, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think it would make more scene if we separate it by the individual characters, or combine it by the shared title. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:15, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think should put other Heroes on this page, because they use generic names instead of their own in Smash, it means DQ Heroe not individuals. And unlike other Pokémon Trainers, Heroes appear in moves and need a page.--Capstalker (talk) 01:16, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * They are still individuals. Just together as one fighter, just like Olimar & Alph, and Bowser Jr. & the Koopalings. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:27, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * The other thing to take into account is the infobox. Debuts differ, as well as some of their Console of origin and Species. FS cameo characters get that info added as well. Not to mention their character art. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:30, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * They are more like Pokémon Trainer and Villager, it's the identity concept character, not Individuals. If we give each character a separate page, I don't object, but that means Red and Leaf need to do the same.--Capstalker (talk) 01:34, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Wouldn't that also mean the Koopaling would need their own pages as well? The Debuts, Console of origin, Species, their character art would still need to be added if they share page. We could also do draft versions of the individual protagonist until Hero is released. I am mainly referring to how the Koopalings and Pokemon Trainer are separated as trophies and Spirits. The Koopalings are referred to as individuals, while the Pokemon Trainer are referred to being alternate (male and female) versions of the same thing. It also doesn't help that that we need names to refer to them as, which a lot of fans and non-fans seem to be up in arms about. Given to how the Hero is treated in their own series, it unfortunately makes thing easier if we referred to them by "The Hero of #" given how they don't have actual names. Same with the Pokemon Trainer, by title, there just so happen to be an official name (Red) and a commonly used name that was well known (Leaf). Perhaps we could make a draft for if we refer to the Heroes by their Roman Numerals? &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:51, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it seems that both of the new characters have caused the controversy of split page, we need to set a standard. But if we split them, should we keep the original page? The concept of identity also needs to explain its origin.--Capstalker (talk) 02:00, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I reiterate: this page covers the main concept of the "Hero" perfectly, given that the playable Hero is not just one specific Hero. If that were the case, then we may have a need to separate the Heroes. But the character instead represents all of them, with (uniquely) both playable and non-playable ones in Smash. I find no reason to separate the pages, given that it's essentially covering the same information. Similarly, the Koopalings would not need their own pages, given their association with each other in both the Mario series and Smash. Aidan,  the Rurouni  12:52, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's not just the four of them. We need to agree on names for all 11 of the DQ Heroes in Smash. We were going to have to do that anyway. So we can list their Debuts, Console of origin, and Species. Which they need on the page. &#32;Wolff (talk) 14:40, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) It would be a lengthy infobox, but I would not be against covering all the information on one page, given, again, the catch-all nature of the "Hero" name/title. I fail to see how we'd need to agree on names, though - we can repeat a process seen with the playable ones (use official names where applicable, and fan-accepted names elsewhere). Aidan, the Rurouni  14:45, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Should we just use the Roman Numerals then? I do feel it makes things a lot easier when listing them on the page. &#32;Wolff (talk) 15:25, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * If you want to not have it where we right out the different names of the Heroes every time (especially if we're covering it all at the same time), then yes. Though the names should be mentioned at least once. Aidan,  the Rurouni  15:34, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * They are already mentioned in each Hero's respected Origin, so they are already mentioned once. &#32;Wolff (talk)

Ah, I probably should've checked here before making that edit to the main page. If I'm being honest, I don't think we need to detail every hero's personal info, since it'll turn the infobox into a doorstop. They rarely share as much origin between them as other related characters in Smash, like the Koopalings or Pokémon Trainers, so it doesn't seem necessary to me.

Actually, as a compromise, would it be worth having individual infoboxes for the playable heroes on this page, where their illustrations are now? DryKirby64 (talk) 17:17, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't think this wiki can currently do individual infoboxes. It can do individual pictures in the infobox. But I think specifying the role of Hero instead of every individual is indeed better. The individuals are covered in the Origin. &#32;Wolff (talk) 17:35, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Zero reason we couldn't do multiple infoboxes. I suggested it at the top of the page for a reason. Miles ( talk)   20:59, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * So the wiki can change the infobox at the top of the page when referring to a different character? Regardless, if we do and up going along the lines of that, we'd need to do it for the Koopalings as well. &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * "Need" is quite inaccurate; there's actually very little reason to do so for the Koopalings, as they pretty much always appear as a full group. Miles ( talk)   21:45, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Wouldn't it be inconsistent though? Both the Koopalings and the Heroes are multiple characters on a single page. Even still, we have the inconsistency of their names. It doesn't seem to make too much sense to refer to a few by a name and the others by numeral. Plus, by separating them, it's going to have people debate on the further.
 * Another thing would be the console debute, species, gender, and place of origin. All of which is eaiser to catagorize when doing under the name of "Hero" than individual character. Charizard is currently the only character to have a second infobox, which always looked weird to me. I know some wikis have a way to have the information in the infobox change depending on which picture/name is being viewed. Some do that, and change what info is being displayed on the page as well. I feel it still goes back to the fact that some of us cannot agree on what names to use. &#32;Wolff (talk) 22:27, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Overview
There has been quite a lot of discussion regarding the Hero from Dragon Quest, mainly how to list them and refer to them on the wiki. (Maybe this can help with that?)

These are the few suggestion I've seen people have made regarding the page separation and names:

Page separation
Some have also suggested multiple infoboxes so the addition information (like Debuts, Console of origin, and Species) wouldn't get bloated. However, the Hero would be the only character to have multiple infoboxes.
 * 1) By title (They all share the tile of "Hero", one page)
 * 2) By character (They are technically different people, eleven pages)
 * 3) By playability (4 Heroes are playable character, 7 are in the Final Smash, two pages)

Names

 * 1) By their official name (if an actual name has been used in some media if one is not used in the games)
 * 2) By their Roman Numeral (Like with their games, Dragon Quest VI)
 * 3) By their number (6 instead of VI)
 * 4) By their in game title (Like "The Legendary Hero" or "The Prince of Somnia")

How to list them
We have the pages, and their names. What do we choose? We could always wait until Hero is released, but I don't know if everyone is comfortable putting these decisions off until then. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:43, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Personally, I feel 1 or 2 for page separation make the most sense to me. And 2 for names. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:43, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * For page: 1 and 2 are acceptable to me, but the 2 has to discuss whether Hero's page should be kept or not, I don't think 3 is meaningful. There's actually another way: keep this page and give each of the four playable Heroes own page.--Capstalker (talk) 01:46, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm interested in the option you just proposed; that sounds like the best approach to me. Their sections on this page could just have a "main article" redirect to their individual pages. DryKirby64 (talk) 01:52, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * But characters that appear as part of a move (Final Smash included) get individual pages as well Capstalker. And DryKirby64, could you elaborate what you meant by "main article"? I unfortunately don't think I understand what you meant. &#32;Wolff (talk) 01:58, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * As in, the playable heroes' entries on this page would just be a link that says "Main article: Luminary" or what have you. Like this, for example. DryKirby64 (talk) 02:37, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * It means there are five pages: all Hero and four playable Heroes.--Capstalker (talk) 02:06, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * For names: I would choose 2 if decide now, but actually we can wait, because maybe they will have Mii Costumes.--Capstalker (talk) 02:11, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * It would also depend on the names. I mean, we refer to both the protagonists of Persona 3 and 4 simply as "Protagonist of Persona #" despite having established official used names. I personally don't see why we couldn't do that with the Heroes. "Hero of Dragon Quest #". But I agree with #2 for names, and that we should see if they have Mii costumes of them. That's why we refer to them as "Protagonist of Persona #", because of their Mii costumes. &#32;Wolff (talk) 03:17, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, and right now we don't really know if the other heroes will receive official titles or not. Spirits could also provide some insight, but it's probably safest to go with "Hero of Dragon Quest #" for article titles, even if we internally use names like Solo and Eight. (Think "Pokémon Trainer" versus Red and Leaf.) DryKirby64 (talk) 03:25, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * But what about the Persona protagonists like Wolff mentioned?172.58.173.232 04:04, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * The main difference with the Persona character is the one from 5 uses a canon name used in 5 and not "Protagonist" and doesn't change to the other protagonists. It probably would have been a different, if not similar to Hero's, story if they were called "protagonist" and be more than just Joker. We just ended up using the Mii costume names for the others most likly because their name as "Protagonist of" is more known despite their actual names commonly used in both official media and the community. &#32;Wolff (talk) 12:06, June 15, 2019 (EDT)

This argument has gone on for way too long. Let’s just abandon it until Hero releases so that we can decide then. Lou Cena (talk) 14:11, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * I would have to agree with waiting. However, someone suggested on Banjo & Kazooie's talk page to combined the 3 Links as they are technically the same character, as well as Samus with ZSS, and Mario with Dr. Mario. They also suggested seperating the three Links, Zeldas, and two Ganondorfs as they are technically different characters. I mention that as it is very similar to the situation with Hero. I'm perfectly fine waiting to sort the Heroes until they come out, but I can't say for others on the wiki. &#32;Wolff (talk) 16:00, June 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, if we decide to create character pages no need to consider the Fighter's design, this means that character pages like Link are really worth revisiting. But what do you mean by seperating?--Capstalker (talk) 05:42, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * I was under the impression that someone on the Banjo & Kazooie talk page had suggested giving each iteration of Link (OoT, TP, BotW) their own page. But I feel the characters from the Zelda series are different from the Hero from the Dragon Quest series. Link is suppose to be Link, regardless of which Zelda game it is, which is why it would be kind of strange to seperate them. The only reason why Toon Link and Young Link have separate pages is because they are classified as different playable characters (Smash and Hyrule Warriors), same with Samus and Zero Suit, or Mario and Dr. Mario. Zelda, Sheik, and Tetra each have their own page (Smash and Zelda Wikis) as they were intended to be separate characters despite technically all being Zelda.
 * One of the problems we have with the Hero is that we do not know if we should classify them under the role of Hero, as they seem to be in Smash (4 of them anyway), or as the individuals they are. (I do not believe this is the same situation as the Zelda character) This mainly seems to stem from the fact that most of them don't have official names, which is a different topic. Or at least, that's where I think the confusion comes from. Since the situation currently doesn't seem to be going anywhere, I think we should hold off until the Hero is released, regardless if we happen to end up back to where we were with how Smash classifies them. &#32;Wolff (talk) 13:39, June 16, 2019 (EDT)