Talk:Tier list/Archive 3

'''I understand that tiers are a point of contention among members of the Smash community. However, this page discusses the tier-lists that the Smash Back Room (for Melee and Brawl) and the GameFAQs forums (for the original) have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not a debate on the existence or ordering of tiers. Those should both be addressed in the Forums. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 23:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)'''
 * Shouldn't part of the discussion then include why we focus on one interest group's opinions? especially for brawl, where a huge number of brawl players seem to contest the list..134.197.22.98 06:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that "one interest group" happens to be the Smash Back Room. They know more about the game and have more contacts with the top level players than anyone else.  If the people complaining were people like Ken, Isai, Chu Dat, etc. I would see the point in noting it.  But people have always been complaining about tiers.  To be honest, the best way to fight back at them is to go win some tournaments with the low tier characters if you can.  Results get noticed much more than complaints.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Tier list in Japan.
Stage:Final Destination

No items.

1on1.

S:MetaKnight,Falco,Snake,ROB

SA:Marth

AAA:Fox

AA:Olimar

A:Toon Link,Wolf,G&W,Pit,Ice Climbers,Diddy Kong

...

Bottom:Ganondorf,Captain Falcon,Sonic

Not for 1on1:Kirby,Link,Ike

Kirby is for psychology battle.He is the weakest charactor without the psychology battle.

Reference materials: §4強、強キャラ、弱キャラ

Tier list is finished and don't ask me why pt is not in separate tierDarkspatan117 (talk) 22:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

--125.31.118.3 13:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a talk page, for crying out loud. Leave the list here, there's no reason to remove it. Yeah, it's japanese, but someone might find it useful. –Entrea Sumatae 22:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How dare he insult THE KING! Cafinator (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Because despite being super powerful and awesome, he's a little slow. –Entrea Sumatae 23:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ew, sprites. Well, the point of THE KING is to use his faster attacks, play defensively, and faking your opponents out is always a barrel of laughs. If all else fails, just use Flame Choke to their deaths. Mwuahahahaha!

...and he's not slow! Cafinator (talk) 00:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone tell me why captain falcon is bottom? I mean why?? - Hatake91 (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Because top tiers aren't allowed to show their moves. Cafinator (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Falcon is given combo atack easily. --125.31.120.168 21:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a tier list that doesn't include half the characters and gives no mention of who formed it or what it is based on. This doesn't go on the page, ever. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course not. But there's no reason it should be removed from this quiet corner we call a talkpage. –Entrea Sumatae 03:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk pages are much less quiet than most pages, especially one as contentious as this one. And being as the user gives no reference as to who made this tier list, all it does is encourage people to post their own made up tier lists.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In japanese,other character's power is changed to player's technique and strategy.(sorry,I use poor English.I'm japanese.)--203.114.201.93 20:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Who gives two shits about teirs....it's just a retarded popularity list. It's only how you fight/play as them is what counts.....also my name's Dane...and I know alot about SSBB's fighting style.

SSBB tier list
Why is Jigglypuff (SSBB) close to the bottom? You can easily do a wall of pain with Jiggly.Y46264Y (talk) 11:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

........Wait, why is Link at the bottom? He has a bit more versitality, and his bombs have multiple uses for many situations.-SKim14


 * Why is DDD 3rd? I think he is not might so.--58.3.159.84 13:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Mr.Game and Watch #4? Are you serious? A1lion835 (talk) 06:12, 14 September 2008 (UTC)A1lion835

Forums, please. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

pretty sure this is the worst tier list SBR has ever put out >.> 134.197.22.98 21:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the sentence above mine which is only this sentence I typed. Name's Dane by the way and, yeah this is the worst teir list, hell I could probably kill MetaKnight, King De-De-De(retard version), Snake(Even though he's fucking awesome), Falco, and hell even R.O.B. It only depends how you use them. My friend went up against the best killers in the game: I.E. Link, Mario, and Snake or Sonic, Captain Falcon, and Ike or Marth, Link, and Ike and he was only Link and yet he owned their asses like a King on a horse.

Wow. Tier Lists are a measure of POTENTIAL. As in how well a character could do if both players were Equal. For example, if Metaknight fought aganist link, it can be predicted that Metaknight has the upper-hand, having faster attacks, and a better recovery, more combo potential, etc. So it doesn't matter if your friend can 'own' metaknight's ass, that just means he has a higher level of skill. 71.194.32.79 19:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If this is so then why is sonic one of the last? this list is completely ridiculous. sonic has the potential to rack up damage VERY quickly and without taking damage at all, and has great KO potential (WHOEVER THE HELL SAID HE HAS BELOW AVERAGE KO POTENTIAL ON SONIC'S PROFILE HAS NOT A CLUE IN THE WORLD OF WHAT THEY ARE SPEAKING ABOUT!!! its not that hard to ko the opponent with sonic at around 30% damage. and not to mention that when using the right moves, he becomes the FASTEST Edgehogger in the game. and all of his attack lag can be cancled. saying this, he has very little and minor downsides.)

no they art, didn't you read the sub page, their based on tourniment performance, so overall metaknight fairs well in tourniments due to his superior ability to dominate the tempo of a match and his good matchups, while captain falcon does badly due to his poor priority, bad recovery and slow finishing moves rebel pyro  TALK

Apparant contradiction
''Years of empirical results support this conclusion as well; national tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco and Sheik. ''

And out of those four, just one is in the new list.

I realise it isn't actually a contradiction, however, in light of the new SSBB tier list, it is badly worded. Perhaps place in parenthesis about those being specific to SSBM only.
 * That's why it says Melee in the sentence. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 16:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Your tier lists are rather aweful, since some people can play well with differant characters; I think I've won more with Yoshi then anyone throughout the games. It's all opinionated crap by wanna-be experts.

It's not our tier list, Mr. I don't even have a user page. It's the Smash Back Room's, who are experts. And I hate to break it to you, but beating computers or random people in your area with any character doesn't make them top tier. These are tournament tiers, and I hate to break it to you, but Yoshi kinda sucks. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you there, CH. Yoshi's moves have been dramatically weakened. He is to Brawl, as Kirby was to Melee. Now, can I ask who these back room people are? Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 22:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh different pros that all discuss things on the Smash World Forums. Go there to find out more.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 00:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The point is, some play better with differant characters. In a chaotic game like SSB, many variables come into effect. It's just a game. Anyone who puts hours into practicing can be an "expert", especially if thay master one character. As much as I hate politicians using the word elitist, that is whet the tiers are. If there were several organizations pumping those out, you may get differant results. I also don't feel yoshi was powered down, you could feel how weak kirby was in melee, and yoshi still works great.

actually, judging by the SSBB tier list the back room put out, I don't think any of them have ever played brawl... 134.197.22.10 09:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Come off it, seriously. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

come off of what? the consensus from every competitive brawl player I know is that they originally thought this list was meant to be humorous.. 134.197.22.98 07:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Tiers R 4 Queers?
Are people allowed to put that under the controversy of tiers section?Smorekingxg456 (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I was going to bring this up in the talk page since I added that bit. Anyways, I added because of the fact that the slogan has been getting popular with the anti-tiers. Magiciandude (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Since I'm not familiar with the slogan, would anyone mind providing a reference? -- Kirby King 01:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Vids like this and this have brought attention to the slogan. And if you Google the line, there are a good amount of results that relate to the slogan. Magiciandude (talk) 02:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't want people putting that up. It just get's spammed throughout the page and the wiki and I think having the rule that we do not say it helps keep things in check. Plus, the statement itself provides no meaningful information on the anti-tier position. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh really? Despite the fact that's been going through the community itself? After all, if statements like "tires don exits" can stay, then why doesn't this slogan comply? It's just as popular as that. As for getting spammed, just remove the "spam stuff". After all, it is called "controversy" for a reason. Magiciandude (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It also falls under the category of potentially offensive. Controversy can exist without people needing to resort to stereotypical sexual-orientation based flames.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 23:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you do have a point there. After all, we didn't really need to have an article on "Ken's Peach Theory" which was an offensive. Didn't thought about thanks. Magiciandude (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why we couldn't just give the abbrieviated version of TR4Q and state that the unabbrieviated form is offensive.--72.200.148.101 21:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Because then we'd have people on the talk page like "ZOMG WATH DOSE IT STND FOUR?" and someone else would go "ZOMG U DONT NO THT N00B!!!" Trust me, this works better.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully this will end the debate here once and for all
And by here, I mean here. Semicolon (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Tier list of america
I know the Tier list of america, just so you guys know. Should I put it up? --Blue Ninjakoopa (talk) 00:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the Smash Backroom is the only one this page is about. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll also point out that there is no such thing. A google search on "tier list of america" gives nothing but your comment on this page. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

SSB64
has that list ever been under revision? KP317 (talk) 03:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not officially, but Link is generally regarded as being higher, and Ness as being lower. ~ Wind Owl (talk) 10:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

When did you hear that? Meteorite (talk) 11:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No more Teirs!
I say that no more teirs are to be made for the simple reason that it makes people hate the characters that they really like and are very good with. Marth maybe 7th place but he's kick-ass and can whoop anyone's asses if that are used right bitch. Anyone else want to complain at what I say? if not then agree by typing onto this.Remember My name's Dane Nerro and I'm the prince player.

What's so bad about being in 7th place in a tier list of 37 characters in the first place? --TStick (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a popularity list and people will start to use top tier characters so I have to say that Tiers R 4 queers!!! but Marth May be seventh but to me he's number one so like I said. No more retarded Tiers!!!

Unsigned User, Wario is my favorite character, but I acknowledge that he's not the best character in the game. And I accept that there are characters better than my favorite instead of pretending he's the best like a fanboy. Meta Knight is 1st, because of his hard to puinish attacks, gimping abilities, and having the best matchups overall; not because people randomly said to put Meta Knight at top for no reason. 8th isn't as good as 7th, but it's almost as good. --TStick (talk) 23:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

So my point still freaking remains and that is NO MORE DAMN TIERS!!!
 * No, it doesn't. Read. Also, calm down. --Shadowcrest  01:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, use the forums for this. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also consider this: everyone views the game and its characters differently. I, as you do, see Marth as being higher, but the group of guys who made the list (who are much more qualified to do so than anyone here) see it differently.  You're not the only person with opinions here, we all (for the most part) disagree with the list, and that's just a part of being human.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 23:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok my friends. Once upon a time there was a game called Super Smash Brothers. It had many characters all with their own moves, strenghts and weaknesses. With all these different characters people decided to see how well one's moveset, speed, manouverability and general strategies compared to the other characters. Once done with comparing they put all characters in a rank list and called this list the tier list. In other words: Tiers show nothing more but the potential of a character. Dane my retarded friend, you can kick Marth's ass with Mewtwo a hundred times if the Marth player is less skilled in the game than you are. A low tier char beating a high tier char says little about their tiers, it says much more about the skills of their players, again: Tiers show the potential of a character. Tiers can not be used to accuratly predict the outcome of battles. Tiers however are usually accurate. Try putting up 2 lvl 9 computers against each other, the higher tier character usually wins. This being becuse the 2 computers are equally skilled and all that counts is the strenghts and weaknesses of the characters. This said I hope I have cleared the minds of some who should just not be on this talk page saying "Yeah well I beat this high tier char with my low tier char!" or "tiers are for queers it says nothing!". If you want to share that kind of information with others I suggest you go to forums. -Panther94.209.166.21 12:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you at all the points except the last. We don't discuss here if it should be changed.  That is for the forums.  Ultimately, it's the back room's decision that counts, though.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, corrected that. -Panther94.209.166.21 18:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You sir are one of the smartest people I have ever seen. Congratulations for not being a idiot like 90% of the people in the community - Hatake91 (talk) 22:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with the people with brains in this place, Tier Lists decide nothing in my book except as has been said, the populatiry of a person. I myself like Kirby and he has always worked well with me (with differing amounts in all three games). Generally I also play with Wario (because of his unusual fighting style) and Wolf (decided to try him out and have stuck with him up until now. I don't believe that a tier list has anything to do with the game people are good with certain people and some are better with others, that is just how things work. Anyway good words from the people with brains here. DarkWolfMan (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's move this discussion to the forums. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

All I have to say is TIRES DON EXITS!!! Also this talk needs another archive. Im Alex25, King of Randomness!  Say Hi to me!   Random stuff!  21:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I also must agree that the tier list is useless. Any character in the game can be a person's top player, but that doesn't mean that that character is the top character in the game. I also believe the tier list discredits the character's true potential. The SSBB tier lists Sonic as only #33 for his lack of knock out moves. I guess the person who wrote the article never used Sonic. I can easily knock out any level 9 character with Sonic, and I can usually beat any other person I had played. Thanks to the tier list, however, most people will not even attempt to play as Sonic! What a major Humbug! LOAP
 * Please put your opinions about the list onto this page. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 21:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Numbers on the recent (Melee) tier list
Worth putting up? MaskedMarth (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Absolutely. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 19:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Done. Smart idea to protect those templates. – MaskedMarth (t c) 11:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That being the case, should we edit the ranking numbers to show ties. For example, where Marth and Fox are both at 9.9 it should show them as 1 1 and then Shiek at 3, no? Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I was basing my separation off this anonymous edit (was that naive of me?). I just asked in the Smashboards thread for verification. – MaskedMarth (t c) 01:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Uhh..
I see that in the Brawl tier, PK Trainer is regarded as a whole, unlike the other transformation characters (Zelda/Samus). Should this be this way? Technically each of his Pokémon is it's own fighter, however because he has three characters, and they need to be switched, should they just be grouped together?  Baltro [  talk  ] 01:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I presume the forced switching of stamina caused the Trainer to be a single entity in the SBR's reckoning, yes. ZSS is effectively a separate character from Samus in itemless tournament play, and Sheik can be if the player so chooses; however, one simply can't play as Squirtle the whole time, etc.  Miles ( talk)   01:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. And that PK Trainer is forced to switch Pokémon when one dies. (faints?)  Baltro [  talk  ] 01:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Usually, "KO'd" is the term used; and yes, that as well. Miles ( talk)   01:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent; case closed.  Baltro [  talk  ] 01:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And even if they were separated and didn't have stamina, they'd still all be low tier.  Koopa Claus  Happy Holidays 22:15, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I know my alphabets
What happened to the 'High' to 'Low' parts of the list?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  21:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They felt a fewer number of tiers was misleading. You can read the Smashboards post, there's a link to it on the page. --  Shadow  crest  21:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  21:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)