Talk:Tier list/Archive 8

Master Hand
I was going to make an edit talking about how Master Hand was once on the Melee tier list, should the article have this? OmegaSpacePirate (talk) 06:54, 9 June 2015 (EDT)
 * If you're talking about the "Gengar" tier, that's mentioned here. Zyrac (talk) 07:36, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

SSB4 tier list
The tier for ssb4 was made on smashboards. http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-version-1-0-finished-time-for-a-break.379736/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wintermelon43 (talk • contribs) 16:23, March 26, 2015
 * We've already discussed this. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 16:25, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

SSB4 japanese tier list released
http://smashboards.com/threads/new-japanese-tier-list-by-shi-g.394772/ 24.201.157.175 02:06, 7 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Exactly! So what's wrong with it?Nintenzilla (talk) 13:09, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Back Room tier lists only  73MPL4R  Only the dead have seen the end of war  13:59, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I think the Smash Back Room tier lists are the official worldwide tier lists. Plus I still think it's pretty hard to come up with a Smash 4 tier list with the DLC characters and the patches shaking the standings up. D  o  t  s  (talk) Mega Man X SNES sprite.png The Skyfall 14:10, 5 May 2015 (EDT)

That should probably go on Japanese tier list. Nyargle blargle (Talk) 14:27, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
 * So far as I can tell, the only reason we even list that Japanese Brawl tiers is because they use a different stage list with major effects on character viability. Miles ( talk)   14:30, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That holds true in Smash 4, too. They generally have the same stagelist as Brawl, as a matter of fact. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 14:32, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I don't know if bumps are acceptable here, but we need a consensus. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 21:02, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I say reject until SBR releases theirs. Serpent King  ( talk ) 21:55, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I reject too. Not only is this not made by SBR, but it's also outdated. Diddy Kong should be nowhere near the top now because of his recent nerfs and there's the absence of Mewtwo. Bulbaboy (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Mii brawler seems to be missing too. Serpent King  ( talk ) 01:13, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * D (High) Laikue (talk | contribs) 01:56, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

(reset indent) Well would you look at that. Serpent King ( talk ) 02:45, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * At this rate, I don't even know if the SBR can even release a tier list, what with all the updates with balances, DLC, etc.. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 06:51, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I think it may be too hard for them, these patches and DLC are coming rapidly, so it's to hard to judge a tier list, in other words, the metagame's become confusing. Nintenzilla (talk) 09:07, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * With Mewtwo having just been released, Lucas on the way, the Roy and Ryu thing still being up in the air, and the recent balance patch, it's going to be a while before we get one, if at all  73MPL4R  Only the dead have seen the end of war  09:13, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Not to mention the two other DLC characters that may be coming. In fact, it could be years perhaps, depending on how they release of course. Nintenzilla (talk) 09:14, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That does not mean that we should adopt a list from whoever thinks to make one. Still Reject Serpent King  ( talk ) 09:45, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

On an irrelevant note, I bet that if it wasn't for the DLCs and patches, I bet we could of gotten an SBR Smash 4 tier list last month ago with either Diddy Kong or Rosalina toping the tier list. D o  t  s  (talk)  The Sandvich 10:02, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Worth a shot, but maybe I can step up and make a tier list for us to temporarily use until SBR makes one? My brother, me, and a few friends of mine all play Smash competitively, and even run our own tournaments, so we have a good concept of what we're seeing in the characters, so if you guys like the idea, I can talk to Miles if he doesn't reply here and see what he thinks. Bulbaboy (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * This page only uses SBR tier lists based on the US metagame. That's not really something I think should be changed. Miles ( talk)   12:17, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That's what I figured. Worth a shot though. Bulbaboy (talk) 12:28, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

New 64 tier list, 1111111111111111
It'll be posted by shortly by myself/Pidge --PPS KoRo, King of Smash 64 Knowledge, and bad grammar....and bad puns (talk) 20:19, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Wherever you got it from, it's not official. SBR purposely stopped making tier lists for SSB64 because 1: The metagame has been pretty much fully developed, and 2: SSB64 is one of the least popular Smash games competitively. Bulbaboy (talk) 22:00, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Um. He's a member of the Smash backroom. He helped create the tier list. Take a look at this: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35rxny/a_4_year_update_come_reality_a_new_community_tier/ You'll notice that there are some significant changes. Specifically, Samus jumping four spaces, Mario dropping two, Falcon and Fox swapping, and Jigglypuff rising two. Laikue (talk | contribs) 22:22, 12 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Oh, I was not aware of that. My apologies. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:54, 13 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Lol hello. Yeah, I'm a member. In all honesty, the reason why the SBR for 64 ended was simply since people well trolled there and didn't do much (outside of setup a proper rule thread as well as an online ladder.) That is why it was turned into a general discussion thread by me/pidge, as per the ruleset thread as well. In terms of the other things: 1. I wouldn't call this game fully developed, as you can see from recent matches, the changed ruleset, and the soon to be highly changed matchup chart. 2. I wouldn't exactly call it unpopular. It's in fact quite popular, being the most popular smash game in Chile, Peru, and Japan(after Smash 4 with 150+ person tournaments yearly and 50-60 person events monthly.) The biggest 64 events outside of Japan have all happened within the last 2 years. I know it's an old game, but look up more before you post that stuff, plz. --PPS KoRo, King of Smash 64 Knowledge, and bad grammar....and bad puns (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I see, thanks for the info. Apologies once again for my ignorance. Bulbaboy (talk) 23:47, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

NEW MELEE TIERS LIST
This tiers list was made over the course of 12 days with the help of redditors /u/scrubjr /u/scrubers /u/ReinDance /u/A_Waskawy_Wabit /u/Pokepen /u/Thebestaround555 /u/goatlink /u/my-name-is- /u/seanbeanskiller /u/spectremagic /u/upvotegod98 /u/vexoskeleton Here it is. Text version: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik | Puff, Captain Falcon, Peach | Ice Climbers, Samus, Pikachu, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Yoshi | Ganondorf, Mario, Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong | Mr. Game & Watch, Roy, Ness, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, Kirby, Bowser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrubjr (talk • contribs) 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
 * We report tier lists from one source only: SBR Serpent ∞ King ( talk ) 01:22, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
 * But Smash Backroom was closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrubjr (talk • contribs) 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Right. We still are not taking tier lists from outside sources though. Just the way it is for the time being. Also, please remember to sign your comments. Serpent ∞ King ( talk ) 01:28, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to chime in, top players are apparently working on a new tier list, so when that's released we'll probably use that. Laikue (talk | contribs) 16:27, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

He's a new tier list from Smashboards: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-2015-melee-tier-list-community-lists-released.425523/ ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is made in America 11:42, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Should we report anything about this? ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is a never lover boy 11:56, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Of course. This is the official backroom tier list, no? Nyargleblargle.png Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 12:38, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * So...why didn't we add the tier list?  John  John3637881 Signature.png  PK SMAAAASH!!  13:39, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Nyargle did, but it's not an official Backroom tier list. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  13:39, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Hmm, does the Backroom intend to continue making tier lists?  John  John3637881 Signature.png  PK SMAAAASH!!  13:44, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * As far as I know, no. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  13:45, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * In that case, I feel we should accept the next most relevant tier list. But I guess we should see what other people think. The most recent tier list we have on the page is outdated and the new one is not that great either imo, so I don't really know.  John  John3637881 Signature.png  PK SMAAAASH!!  13:48, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * All I saw was it's from Smashboards, which is the tier list we usually report. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is made in America 13:55, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * The details are here. This list was based on votes from 24 top players and is deemed "official" by Smashboards, which seems close enough to a backroom list to me. If we accepted a community list for Smash 64, I think we can accept this. Zyrac (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Okay, it definitely seems legitimate now.  John  John3637881 Signature.png  PK SMAAAASH!!  15:01, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * I'll agree to that. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  15:05, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Yeah, if the Backroom isn't making any more tier lists, this will have to be it. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 16:09, 10 December 2015 (EST)

Even if this could be the "official next" tier list, I highly doubt that Fox should deserve his own tier on the top. Sure he's the best in the game but not broken. D o  t  s  (talk)  The Dandy 17:48, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Just because a character has their own tier doesn't mean they're broken. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  17:49, 10 December 2015 (EST)
 * Well even if Fox is not broken, he sure is well above the rest of the cast then. D  o  t  s  (talk) Mega Man X SNES sprite.png The Piano 17:56, 10 December 2015 (EST)

First Official Smash 4 Tier List (without Corrin and Bayonetta)
http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/ Jdcomix (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2016 (EDT)

Project M tier list
Hi guys. So, we have a tier list for Project M that was made about two months ago. Are we going to include this? It was made similar to the fashion that Smash Backroom tier lists are made, with top players around the world. More information is here: http://pmunderground.net/index.php/component/content/article/8-news/12-pmu-character-tier-list-1-0?Itemid=103

AtomicArmageddon (talk) 00:41, 14 February 2016 (EST)
 * We have Template:PMTiers, but I am not sure if there is any intention of using it. Probably not though, as PM is supposed to be restricted to Project M, it's character pages, tournaments, and smashers. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   00:59, 14 February 2016 (EST)

Bias?
I feel this article is heavily pro-tier biased, which isn't what a wiki is supposed to do. even the Wikipedia articles for the Nazis and Donald Trump lack bias if I remember correctly. 81.134.202.2 07:15, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * It would be appreciated if you could be more specific. There is a section over tier controversy, but there is almost no question that some characters are better than others. What "bias" are you seeing? Rob Sir   RobSir-sig.jpg  zx  07:51, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * it's a article about tiers, you think that we are going to criticise the tier on tier article? PoultrysigSSB4.png Poultry PoultrysigSSBM.png( talk ) the Team Liquid  09:41, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * Except it's not a mere opinion that "tiers exist," it's a fact that some characters are more competitively viable and produce better tournament results than others. This is not comparable to a Wikipedia article saying that "Donald Trump would be a bad President." Compare this to an article about the spherical nature of the Earth including a section dispelling the controversy among flat-Earth believers. Saying stuff like "Tiers are stupid" or "Tiers are bad for the Smash community" would certainly be opinionated bias, but saying something like "Tiers exist" is a widely accepted fact. Awesome   Cardinal   2000  10:09, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * Lets just dont talk about this because there is a lot of giant arguments in the other 7 ARCHIVES PoultrysigSSB4.png Poultry PoultrysigSSBM.png( talk ) the Team Liquid  10:16, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

@IP What bias? I see nothing but facts. In fact, casual players shouldn't even be viewing these pages.

@Poultry I know you trying to be admin, but that's not the way to settle disputes. Penro 10:26, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * Saying stuff like "Casual players shouldn't even be viewing these pages" without even explaining your reasoning is just as poor a way of settling disputes. Awesome   Cardinal   2000  11:31, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * I will admit that i am a tier supporter, but this argument has been done too many times! also i agree with ac2k with what you said to the IP PoultrysigSSB4.png Poultry PoultrysigSSBM.png( talk ) the Team Liquid 11:55, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Just looking at this section, I honestly don't see how this article is biased. We simply report facts about a tier list here. But of course, the talk page for the tier list page will always have subjective arguments. Hmm. D o  t  s  (talk)  The Kirby 15:56, 23 March 2016 (EDT)

Project M 3.6 Tier List?
Should we add the Project M 3.6 Tier List to this page? Yoshifan 34567 (talk) 10:26, 17 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I think we should PoultrysigSSB4.png Poultry PoultrysigSSBM.png( talk ) the Team Liquid  10:36, 17 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I object. Project M should have its own things on its own pages. D  o  t  s  (talk) Mega Man X SNES sprite.png The Restful 15:31, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

Controversy Section Bloat
First of all, I'd like to note that technically speaking, Bayonetta has not won a national mentioned on our Wiki yet. This got corrected pretty fast, but I'd just like to mention that we really shouldn't be mentioning results for her or Corrin to begin with when the tier list is significantly outdated in relationship to them because of how it lacks their presence to begin with.

Second of all, that paragraph is honestly filled with a bunch of unnecessary examples. We only need a few examples to prove that yes, high tiered characters are often the victors of Smash tournaments. You could prove that point with 2-3 examples in the section for each game.

Third of all (who in the hell even says that), the section needs to be changed up to mention the Smash 4 patches. Honestly, a simple note in the first paragraph would probably suffice, along with additions in the third paragraph that notes how the nerfing/buffing patterns can change up the metagame (we mention Diddy Kong as a common winner, but fail to note that he's not in his prime days anymore).

I bring this up on the talk page instead of just editing it in for two reasons; I don't pay attention to Smash 4 meta in general, and my primary game revolves around significant balance patches that arrive every 3-6 months. Hell if I know whether or not the patches have shaken things up that much to make a difference. Same goes with whether or not the tier list examples for Smash 4 could still be considered truly relevant, especially with the shake ups in the top 3 placements for the 2016 national tournaments. Mega Tron1   22:33, 9 May 2016 (EDT)


 * It's still very wordy, but I hope I helped somewhat. Gold  [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 03:52, 10 May 2016 (EDT)

Official Brazilian tier list for Smash 4
Looks like a Back Room tier list based on match-ups was created in Brazil.

http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v1-0-competitive-impressions.429826/page-562#post-21346782

http://1upsmash.com/topic/8580370/1/

I guess we better create a page, template or whatever like for Melee's Brazilian tier list. And what about Template:Infobox Character? -- Ethan  ( Discussion ) 15:45, 26 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Apparently this isn't a Back Room tier list. BR stands for Brazil and Brazil apparently has no Smash 4 Back Room right now. I believe this is official. Is it worthy to be on the wiki? -- Ethan [[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]] ( Discussion ) 16:31, 26 July 2016 (EDT)

Official Project M 3.6 Tier list
The Project M Backroom and PM Underground recently released a second official tier list (as of 21 July 2016) here: http://pmunderground.net/index.php/articles/9-articles/45-introducing-the-new-pmbr-and-pm-tier-list-2. I think we should add a section for Project M, in between Brawl and Smash 4. Project M is, after all, a widely played Smash Bros. game, more widely played than Brawl, which is listed here. Hydrodynamic (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Sorry, no dice. Consensus here is that we only have the main Project M page and separate character analysis pages, and that's only because it's big. Content pertaining to Brawl mods, including PM, should not be on other mainspace pages. --Timson622222 (talk) 00:09, 28 July 2016 (EDT)

Bayonetta as an argument for tiers existing
This part looks a little out of place; I think a better example would be Meta Knight taking so many tournaments in Brawl instead of Bayonetta carrying players. I'm not denying that she was overpowered (she most definitely was better than most characters), but one could deduct that it wasn't her being a better character, just having a ridiculously low skill floor. Meta Knight, on the other hand, still consistently wins tournaments for Brawl. KuroKagami (talk) 17:41, 4 August 2016 (EDT)

Another Potential Backroom List
Would this be considered an official list? Laniv (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2016 (EDT)

Validity of tier lists on Toon Link...
I thought discussing this at Toon Link wasn't appropriate, so I'm posting here...


 * "In gaming, a tier list is a list that ranks all characters based on the strength of their fighting abilities and their potential to win matches under tournament conditions, assuming equal skill on the part of each player."


 * From Toon Link (SSB4): "...since Hyuga has been banned from various tournaments as of EVO 2016 and subsequently announced his retirement from competitive play, it is unclear how his absence will affect Toon Link's tier ranking. "

Aren't these two statements contradictory? 23.27.245.161 14:27, 24 September 2016 (EDT)

Given PGR's authority...
Shouldn't we use their tier list here instead of the S4BR given it's the most recent one? It also seems to be the most agreeable on given most top players right now think Bayonetta is the best character right now. &#60;span style&#61;&#34;color:#FF00FF&#34;&#62;Beefy Dood&#60;/span&#62; (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2017 (EST)
 * However, this page discusses the tier lists that the Smash Back Room have posted. These are accepted by almost every high level player, and as such are important and notable content to this wiki. Discussion on this talk page should be limited to the content of the page, not to debate on the ordering of tiers, we report the tier lists, we don't decide them.


 * If the Smash Back Room allows it and makes it official of their own, go ahead, but for years we rely and report what the Smash Back Room makes. PGR's Smash 4 tier list is only their opinion. D  o  t  s  (talk) Mega Man X SNES sprite.png The Peaceful 18:19, 26 February 2017 (EST)
 * But thing is the S4BR list is also an opinion. Shouldn't a newer tier list made by 'the' global ranking system in which it's creators are top players replace the antiquated one? —Beefy (Dood ) 02:07, 1 March 2017 (EST)
 * S4BR tier lists are compiled by numerous top-level players and the Smash community, including SmashWiki, considers them as the most reliable tier lists to look to. D  o  t  s  (talk) Mega Man X SNES sprite.png The SNES 10:45, 10 March 2017 (EST)
 * PG also has top players voting for its lists, namely and . Because of PG's increasing reputation, and because the third and very recent S4BR list is out, should we at least place their list in List of SSB4 tier lists (NTSC)? —Beefy  (Doodette ) | 18:51, 23 March 2017 (EDT)

With the PGR tier list, from what I seen it mostly just came and went as people ignored it after its horrible methodology got pointed out. To make the tier list, they just had all their panelists rate each character from a scale of 1-10 with no accountability and then averaged the result, while outliers and clear joke votes or votes with heavy bias weren't discounted. This resulted in things like Bayonetta getting #1 on it because one panelist rated Diddy Kong a 4, and then Ganon got rated a few spots higher because a panelist rated him a 10. Even if the community accepted the tier list, the provably terrible methodology behind it would alone be enough to discount it from getting priority coverage here over the Smashboards tier list.

I think it would be ok to make its own separate article about it, but it shouldn't be on the default tier list page. Omega  Tyrant   13:12, 25 March 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah, we should.
 * Though, the S4BR tier list also involved voting 1-10 for characters. Also, some people (like ZeRo) don't agree that Diddy Kong is #1. —S+ Tier (List ) | Isohunt.jpg 03:44, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
 * Except as far as things seem, S4BR actually does take it seriously. I'm not sure why you're being so stubborn about this. Plus, Bayonetta is top tier currently (and most likely will be for the forseeable future), not Diddy, so I don't see how that's relevant here. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  03:46, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
 * "Though, the S4BR tier list also involved voting 1-10 for characters."


 * Did you actually read the procedure of it? They did not do a simple 1-10 voting and then averaging the result system like the PGR tier list.


 * "Also, some people (like ZeRo) don't agree that Diddy Kong is #1."


 * "Some people" and Zero are irrelevant when the voting of the PGR tier list would have rated him #1 on it if joke votes and outliers were accounted for; no sane player taking it seriously would rate Diddy Kong a 4, and no proper voting system would allow a single joke/outlier vote to tank a character's score enough to single-handily cost them the #1 spot (nor should the reverse situation happen where someone rated Ganon a 10 and single-handily rose him up a few spots). You also seem to like appealing to authority here, yet ignore that the SBR tier list involved voting from top players and other players highly knowledgeable about the game, while unlike the PGR tier list, had a proper methodology behind it and the people behind it taking it seriously. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:03, 27 March 2017 (EDT)


 * If you haven't, you should really read the reddit thread of the PG tier list, to see indepth how bad the methodology behind it was, the questionable seriousness of those involved with it, and the general community rejection of the tier list. Also I was wrong about Diddy getting a 4, he was given a 3. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:21, 27 March 2017 (EDT)
 * The procedure in S4BR isn't as flawed as PG, but is nevertheless unreliable. Some of the jokes I keep hearing around me is that "surely these top players know how to use Dr. Mario (SSB4) and Wii Fit Trainer (SSB4)," meaning these players are not qualified to judge other characters since they probably have never used them in a tournament setting.


 * But, the point here isn't to discredit anyone's opinion on the tier list, criticize the algorithm used in grading these characters, or to be "stubborn about this" (as DisasterFlare put it). The point is that we have to look at these lists objectively (even if we disagree with them) and place them somewhere in this this Wiki because, as of now, we're an official wing of Smashboards, or rather, we are the talking heads of top players' opinions. —S+ Tier (List ) | Isohunt.jpg 19:49, 3 April 2017 (EDT)
 * "''Some of the jokes I keep hearing around me is that "surely these top players know how to use Dr. Mario (SSB4) and Wii Fit Trainer (SSB4)," meaning these players are not qualified to judge other characters since they probably have never used them in a tournament setting.""


 * Some people disagreeing with certain characters' placement doesn't equal an flawed methodology, there's gonna be people disagreeing with something of any tier list possible, especially in Smash 4 where every lower tier character has some group of people swearing them to be underrated. That is pure subjectivity, and those cited characters don't even have anything obvious that show their placements to be unfounded.


 * "The point is that we have to look at these lists objectively"


 * Looking at the tier lists objectively shows the PGR tier list to be a joke, there is nothing subjective about the terrible methodology behind it, and there is nothing subjective about how the community rejected it.


 * "because, as of now, we're an official wing of Smashboards, or rather, we are the talking heads of top players' opinions."


 * The wiki reports on the Smashboards tier list as the authoritative source because of one, the Smash Back Rooms have consistently put out the most credible tier lists with both a respectable authority and solid methodology behind them, and two, the Smashboards tier list is the most generally accepted tier list among the community. If the PGR were to put out a new list with a proper methodology behind it and picks up serious traction among the community, then we can start talking about which tier list to put on this page. Until then, it can be relegated to its own article separate from this page. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:45, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

[Formerly the April Fools Success or Failure Discussion]
If it was a failure, what could I have done to make it better? That way, I can step it up a notch for next year's April Fools by doing something asanine. Also, what was the best part about the edits to the page? I'd like to know, really. Enigma (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Why talk about it on here? If you want to talk about improving April Fools' for next year, take it to SmashWiki talk:April Fools'.  MH  StarCraft  Mega Man X SNES sprite.png 15:10, 2 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Huh, I never saw that there was an April Fools Talk. Well, I might end up trying to think of a different topic we could talk about. Thanks. Enigma (talk) 08:30, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

FAQs
Since this page is starting to grow in size with various statements, why don't we add a FAQs section to it, or even create its own separate page? Newcomers being deluded into tier lists can then come and refer to it here so they know what these lists are and what they aren't. For example, briefly explain they were not meant to predict tournament wins or that skill can be in fact a much better factor than character choice. —S+ Tier (List ) |  21:04, 24 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Ignoring your questionable stance and ethics when it comes to covering tiers (no one cares that you think newcomers are deluded, we're an encyclopedia, not an editorial), I don't see a need to include an FAQ page; the opinions of SmashWiki editors would potentially start to show in it, and it sets a bad precedent, as no other article on SmashWiki features such an FAQ.


 * As for your suggestions regarding explanations for what tiers are and aren't, be bold and add it to the page. If it rocks, people will add onto it, if it sucks, it'll get deleted and someone is going to explain what you did wrong. And if you don't think you can pull it off all at once, try creating a draft on your userpage like I've done for the past 9ish years. If it rocks, people will tell you why, if it sucks, people will tell you why. Just go for it!!


 * --- <font face="Pristina"> Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire,  16:06, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Cool.
 * Now that that's out of the way, how come there is an opinion piece being advertised here? That looks more like an editorial. That's why I think it should be in its own "See also" section, because it's still useful. Some pages on Wikipedia also have useful essays in the main space but aren't being treated like fact, but rather as a guide to what one should believe. —<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier (<font color="Purple">List ) <font color="Aqua">| Isohunt.jpg 19:21, 27 June 2017 (EDT)


 * Frankly, it's not an opinion piece at this point. The overwhelming bulk of evidence supports tiers as existing, and as the essay covers the existence of tiers, it makes the most sense for it to be linked under that specific section.


 * --- <font face="Pristina"> Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire,  21:50, 27 June 2017 (EDT)


 * Tier lists exist, and are valid for the scope that they represent. An argument that supports it would only help back up the fact that they exist.
 * "But random user on the internet, tiers aren't legit!"
 * Yes they are. Hillary lost, get over it. 74.82.35.43 21:44, 27 June 2017 (EDT)


 * I understand you mean well, but can you please leave politics out of it? Or at the very least, avoid being so obtuse?


 * --- <font face="Pristina"> Monsieur Crow, Author Extraordinaire,  21:50, 27 June 2017 (EDT)


 * One thing that I think is odd is that this is pretty much the only page on the wiki that links to a userspace page (the treatise, obviously). That's always irked me and it comes off as a bit unprofessional and inconsistent.  John  John3637881 Signature.png  HUAH!  22:31, 27 June 2017 (EDT)
 * See, that's the thing. Game imbalances in mechanics and movesets in games like this one and Street Fighter causes some characters to be perceivably better than others. That's what tiers are. But while the work "Treatise on the Existence of Tiers" deals with a subject that virtually all of us see as true, it is so highly opinionated (its condescending tone attests to this) it doesn't belong in the mainspace. The fact that the work is almost entirely made up of counterarguments to anti-tiers makes it an opinion. The section on this page "Existence of tiers" is already pretty persuasive but that's a lot more neutral than having something as unprofessional as having an essay in the mainspace.
 * Besides, if we were to move it to the "See also" section it's probably not going to damage its visibility or credibility. Or at least I notice what's in these sections. —<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier (<font color="Purple">List ) <font color="Aqua">| Isohunt.jpg 00:40, 28 June 2017 (EDT)

To answer the original question: A "FAQs" section doesn't fit in an encyclopedia, and it would just duplicate the information already on the page. Toomai Glittershine The Breegull 06:25, 28 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah, this has been addressed. Now it's more whether the essay belongs in its own section given it's more subjective. —<font color="Magenta">S+ Tier (<font color="Purple">List ) <font color="Aqua">| Isohunt.jpg 00:41, 29 June 2017 (EDT)

SSB4 tier list renders
Can we please use the official character renders instead of the ugly, hard-to-read, unofficial screenshot portraits? MassiveheroSoccerguy (talk) 09:58, 10 August 2017 (EDT)