Talk:Alternate costume (SSBU)/Archive 1

All costumes from E3 demo
If you're using this in preperation to copy and paste the info to the actual page when one gets made, here's a video that shows all the costumes for all the characters that were at the demo to help you. Unknown the  Hedgehog  14:18, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Article
Since the E3 demo provided almost half of the confirmed characters' alt costumes, and since we also have the descriptions / order / screenshots for said characters, I went ahead and transferred the page to an official article. I chose to give the characters not in the E3 demo a clean slate on the actual article and left them commented out since we don't know what costumes will be featured nor in what order. If it's just the same old from SSB4, that can be copied and pasted from the SSB4 alt costume page again. Alternatively, we can still use this sandbox for those characters not in the E3 demo for whatever screenshots Sakurai releases over time that show their costumes. Unknown the  Hedgehog  16:06, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
 * We are supposed to move a page when it is ready, so its edit history is preserved. I will fix this. Dek Zek Dekzeksig.png 17:09, 18 June 2018 (EDT)
 * My apologies. I did not realize the moving policy included articles being transferred from userspace to main. That's my bad, and I'm sorry for all that trouble. Unknown the  Hedgehog  17:48, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Zelda's Silver-haired Alt
Just like in Smash Wii U, a lot of people, many without accounts, keep editing the description for Zelda's white-haired alt. Many people think it's based on Hilda or Vaati without looking at them critically. It has escalated to a point where some previous edits have been insulting in a very juvenile way. Maybe I'm just too impatient, but I'm already tired of seeing these edits and I can only see them escalating. Is it possible we can put some sort of disclaimer in the description the same way Duck Hunt's has one for their Black Lab alt for the people who kept insisting it was based on Banjo-Kazooie? It could read:

"WARNING: This costume is NOT based on Vaati, Hilda, or any established Zelda character. It was first introduced in Brawl where it complimented Link and Ganondorf's respective black, white-haired alts. Sheik has one too. Please do NOT suggest otherwise. It might be considered vandalism and will result in a temporary ban."

I was on the cusp of adding this myself, but I am not really an authority to say what constitutes as vandalism and what doesn't. I am also not an authority on banning any people, so I was hoping that, in bringing it up here, we could add this disclaimer. Nintendo101 (talk) 15:43, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

Semi-protection
I believe this should be semi-protected. This page is the only alternate costume page to not have semi-protection and will likely be subject to the same problems the other articles also had, if not worse due to the sheer number of characters Ultimate will have.  Voqéo T  11:28, 3 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Support I agree completely, this page needs to be semi-protected like all the others. SSB4DarkSonicHead.png Speed48 13:03, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Support I agree because the characters Ultimate has will just give this page problems if it isn't semi-protected. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan  Leave a message if needed 13:11, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Support Some may argue that this is for a game still in development and does not warrant the protection, but I think that is exactly what makes it more pressing. SSB4, Brawl, and Melee are old news for a lot of people "looking" to "improve" these articles: Ultimate is where they are going to go. These floodgates need to be closed. Nintendo101 (talk) 20:09, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Support I'm frankly getting sick of the unconstructive edits that are occurring here. Leave it to the people who know what they're doing. Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  20:15, 6 July 2018 (EDT)

Hey I want to add info but I can't. Does this page really need to be protected still? UnReverie (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2018 (EST)
 * Hi, UnReverie. All alternate costume pages on SmashWiki are semi-protected due to unconstructive editing. Semi-protection means that people without user accounts and users who are not autoconfirmed cannot contribute to the article. You become autoconfirmed after 1.) you have had a user account for 7 day’s and 2.) you have made at least ten edits. In the interim, you can discuss potential contributions here in the discussion page. What edits did you want to make? Nintendo101 (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2018 (EST)

Costume labels
First, all of the characters' main costumes should be labeled "Default" for consistency. Many of them are not primarily solid colors, and even when they are the article is not consistent. (examples: Ridley's main costume is primarily purple, and yet it is currently labeled "Default." Meanwhile, Sonic's main costume is labeled "Blue," but most of his costumes are also primarily blue.) As it is, labeling only some of the main costumes "Default" just makes the whole article look messy.

Second, please stop completely undoing every single edit I made to Zelda's section for no reason. Even if you don't agree with all the changes made, not all of them are without merit. I fixed the link leading to an image of adult Zelda in Ocarina of Time because the first image has been deleted off of Zeldawiki. Every time someone reverts the edit without bothering to look at each individual change, they also revert to the broken link. As for Zelda's white costume, I believe it is just as (if not more) likely that it is based off of the iconic white dress that she wears in Skyward Sword rather than the small sprite from A Link to the Past. For Zelda's blue costume, I believe it is just as likely that it takes inspiration from the informal blue and white dress she wears in A Link to the Past. Unlike the currently mentioned sprite from The Legend of Zelda, this costume is blue/white rather than solid blue and it also retains Zelda's blonde hair. Unless there is any solid evidence to the contrary, I believe these potential inspirations deserve to be mentioned.

Third, the Pokemon Trainer's costume labels make little sense (example: Why is the 8th costume labeled "Purple" when her clothes are primarily orange?) It would probably be best to just use the name of the main game protagonist they're based off of.

Fourth, the Ice Climbers labels are inconsistent. Some of them use Popo's color to name the costume, while some of them use Nana's color. It would probably be best to just use both colors in the label. (example: their 8th costume would be labeled "Purple/Orange.") 69.114.138.106 00:45, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * This all seems pretty well-reasoned.
 * (Although, don't forget to sign with four tildes (~).) TheNuttyOne 00:40, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * "Default" refers to their default appearance. I will admit that the wiki does not have a sense of consistency in regards to that.
 * As I have not undone any of these, I can't really comment on your statement. Apologies for any inconvenience.
 * The colors, to my understanding, are in regards to the Pokémon themselves, as they are the ones you play as. I do agree, though, we should rethink that.
 * That's not how the template works, though; the head icons have one color attached to them. It is why we can't have a repeat of a color within the descriptions. That said, some use Popo's and some use Nana's because the costumes change which Ice Climber is the leader, as is the case with their previous appearances.
 * Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni  00:48, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the response. In order to make it look more professional and less confusing, I think we need to choose whether all character's default appearances are labeled "Default" or with a color. Right now the implication is that only some characters have a default appearance. As for the Ice Climbers, I completely forgot that the lead character switches depending on the costume. Still, are we sure which costumes belong to which Ice Climber yet? Are the first four Popo and the latter four Nana? Because if so, then Popo has three blue costumes and each one would have to be labeled as a different shade of blue (maybe Blue, Azure, and Indigo?) 69.114.138.106 05:12, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

I'm new here but seeing some costumes say Default, and some not say it confused me. I could have swore that costumes were always meant to be labeled in a way that the first costume slot is Default. For example, earlier today someone reverted all the "Defaults" back to a color and kept saying "stop it, don't change that, stop it." but I personally agree that Defaults should be Default. Shimesa (talk) 02:26, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I was one of the primary users who reverted the changes addressed here, and I will try to explain myself as best I can.
 * The main grievance I had with how you changed the names of the colors to "Default" is that you made a substantial change without explaining why or discussing it with other users. You did not express an understanding of how our templates work: Sonic's alts are not all called "blue" because stock icons need distinct names. I think you brought up some good points here, and I appreciate you explaining your opinion. However, personally, I think consistency is overrated within an academic context. I do not think readers will be overly confused and I do not think it detracts from the article. Alternatively, maybe we should rethink how the templates for alternate costumes are arranged, but that's not something we can approach until Ultimate is released and we gain access to the stock icons. For now, the names should be left alone (unless redundant).
 * I was not the user who undid your revisions to Zelda's subsection. I would not have, because I found some of those helpful changes, especially fixing the link to Adult Zelda's artwork on ZeldaWiki. However, I will say that Zelda's alts in Ultimate have been talked about among users elsewhere. For the blue Zelda, the general feeling was that if it was based on her outfit from A Link to the Past it would have been more explicitly 1-to-1. Color wise, it looks like an adaption of Zelda's blue dress from previous Smash games, so the safest assertion to make is that the blue Zelda in Ultimate shares the same source of inspiration as the blue Zeldas in Brawl and Melee. We have no significant reason to believe otherwise. Discussions I have had with another user lead to the assertion that the connection to Zelda in the Hylia dress in Skyward Sword is not as strong in Ultimate as it was in SSB4. Plus, the jewels in Zelda's tiara even matches the ALttP sprite.
 * I think the colors right now for the Pokémon Trainer make sense and are appropriate. The Trainer is merely a vessel that gives you access to the actual playable characters, being Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. Their colors should be prioritized. Even if that was confusing, a disclaimer is in the Trainer's subsection.
 * For the first four swaps, you control Popo. For the last four, you control Nana. The color name should reflect which Ice Climber you control (just like how Pokémon's colors should be prioritized over the Trainer's...).Nintendo101 (talk) 15:22, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Consistency is definitely important. It's not a matter of whether or not readers understand, it's a matter of not looking sloppy. If our sole goal is to make sure readers understand, then their's technickly nuthin wrong with usin bad grammer and speling, sense most peple can figure out what we ment. TheNuttyOne 16:02, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I also agree that consistency is important, and I also agree that all the default costumes should be labeled as "Default".  Voqéo T  16:18, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I never said consistency was not of value, just that it is overrated. For this particular case, I do not think changing the names of all the first alts to "Default" makes the article seem any more or less sloppy. I think our time and energy is better used elsewhere on SmashWiki. However, if y'all reach consensus on this topic, then it does not matter what I individually think. All is well. :) Nintendo101 (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Using "default" to refer to the first costume is an absolute last resort when no actual colour name can be used due to either 1. collision with all other options or 2. the first being too many colours at once to assign a useful name. This is how all the alt costume pages for all games work.

All the current colour names are not final, and will be revised once the final game is out. So let's not get too involved in arguing over what they should be right now. Toomai Glittershine The Zesty 16:58, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Sonic's Black Costume
Since it's impossible for me to edit the pages, I'll say the problem here: Sonic's black costume it's based on from. John(ITALIA) (talk) 20:33, 7 July 2018
 * This has been discussed before. The consensus reached was that it doesn't have a strong enough resemblance to Dark Sonic for it to be worth mentioning. — [[File:NokiiSig.png]] Nokii ε (''T·C·L) 14:51, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Should we mention what little we know for Meta Knight and ROB?
Those screeenshots confirm a few. Should we mention them? Unowninator (talk) 18:01, 12 July 2018 (EDT)
 * The problem is that neither were in the demo, so we can't exactly do that without it looking inconsistent. Aidan,  the College-Bound Rurouni  18:04, 12 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's why I asked. Plus I was going to do Meta Knight, until I realized I only knew 2 of them. Unowninator (talk) 18:17, 12 July 2018 (EDT)

Sonic's 2nd Color
May I ask why it's being compared to NiGHTS for a barely noticable fur color change and purple shoes?72.133.91.93 15:54, 5 August 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105

Black skins
Can it be that the black Zelda-costume represents Princess Hilda and the black Sonic-Costume represents Dark Sonic ? Pokemon (talk) 02:20, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Black Zelda does not resemble Hilda in the slightest, as Hilda has purple hair; black Zelda has white hair. The dress is also not similar, as there is a purple color scheme for the former, and a (as the color implies) black color scheme for the latter.
 * As for Dark Sonic, this has already been discussed before. Aidan,  the College-Bound Rurouni  02:23, 6 August 2018 (EDT)

Bowser Jr.
Should the Koopalings be added on this page? We know they're his pallet swaps again, and we have the screenshot of them on Fourside.
 * We have the screenshot, yes, but it becomes inconsistent with the rest of the page, as the other characters use pictures from the E3 demo. Aidan,  the College-Bound Rurouni  11:16, 10 August 2018 (EDT)

Marth's Purple Costume
Marth's eighth costume references his FE1 artwork instead of Roy. This video is the best one I could find that uses it

K. Rool's costumes
From what is revealed of the two:


 * The purple costume is a likely reference to Kannon, a Kremling enemy in DKC2 who has a pink-grey color scheme.
 * The blue costume is a reference to Krusha, a Kremling enemy in DKC with an identical color scheme.

While the Kannon alt is not the exact proper color, I don't think there's any doubt on the blue costume. Also, Kannon is considered the same enemy as Klump, just with different armaments, and Klump and Krusha are the two iconic Kremling enemies, so it makes sense for them to be used as a color basis for K. Rool's alts. 174.89.43.80 18:29, 21 August 2018 (EDT)

Hell Hawk
I don't know why this and other articles are bothering to claim there's some change such that the Blood Falcon alt says "Hell Hawk" instead of "Blood Hawk" now. Blood Falcon's machine has always been known as Hell Hawk in Japanese (with English text, even) and Blood Hawk in overseas localizations. With that screenshot from the website doubtless being captured in the Japanese version of the game, the costume in the US/EU versions of the game will doubtless say Blood Hawk once again. SuperFalconBros (talk) 00:56, 24 August 2018 (EDT)

Falco
Falco has a green costume. --VoyagerDefault (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Okay. So? Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  20:03, 24 August 2018 (EDT)

Why is not it added..? --VoyagerDefault (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2018 (EDT)
 * It's added now, but it was labeled as white in Smash 4. SSB4DarkSonicHead.png Speed48 22:34, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

K. Rool's purple costume
His purple in my opinion reminds me of Skidda, Klump is brown. --VoyagerDefault (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2018 (EDT)


 * Skidda is from DKC3 not dkc2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by IAMWEEGEE24 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 14 September 2018 (EDT)


 * fixed, thanks Nintendo101 (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2018 (EDT)


 * Actually, Klump is pink, not brown. Skidda is nore fuschia than pink, plus when comparing the two side by side, Klump's is a closer match. --Tailikku (talk) 17:56, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Chrom's Red Costume
To me it looks more like Anna or the Trickster Class in Awakening or Chrom's Gifted Leader outfit from Heroes —Preceding unsigned comment added by AdysonSweetwater (talk • contribs) 01:36, 16 September 2018
 * Anna's outfit has no black elements to it, and the Heroes Christmas alt for Chrom doesn't recolor his left shoulder guard or related parts of the outfit, while there's many costume elements which are clearly black in the SSBU costume. When I pointed out the possible references which are currently on the page, I tried to keep to the ones which included both red and black. Miles ( talk)   02:40, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

Shadow Mewtwo
Okay, why is Mewtwo's last alt being compared to Shadow Lugia of all things? It much more resembles Shadow Mewtwo from Pokken Tournament (yes, I know the alt. costume doesn't have a yellow tail, but it much more resembles Shadow Mewtwo than Shadow Lugia! The comparison itself is just ridiculous, and it should probably be changed. On an additional note, (no one responded to a previous talk page thing I mentioned) why is Sonic's 2nd color being compared to NiGHTS for a barely noticeable fur color change nad purple shoes? NiGHTS doesn't even wear purple shoes! 72.133.91.93 12:36, 27 September 2018 (EDT)Blueflame105
 * I can't answer the question for Sonic, but for Mewtwo, compare the dates. The dark Mewtwo costume was in SSB4, and Mewtwo was announced on October 23rd, 2014, and released on April 18th, 2015. Pokkén's trailer for Shadow Mewtwo was released in November of 2015. Since the articles are written under the rule of "if we don't have a direct confirmation, what is the most likely basis", claiming that the dark Mewtwo costume might have been somewhat based on Shadow Mewtwo makes no sense unless Sakurai knew the development of the game behind the scenes, which I highly doubt. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  12:43, 27 September 2018 (EDT)
 * (edit conflict) For one, have you seen ? That's a pretty solid color match, if you ask me. For two, NiGHTS does wear purple shoes. Aidan,  the Rurouni  12:44, 27 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Yes, I have seen Shadow Lugia, and comparing the alt to it is pointless, due to many, many, things having that same black and gray color scheme. Personally, I don't think it closely enough matches anything to really be stated to be based off of anything at this point. Also, really? I was pretty sure NiGHTS wore brown shoes... Well, I still think Sonic's alt looks nothing like NiGHTS.
 * The connection to NiGHTS is primarily based on the fact that his fur was purple in this alt in Smash 4. In Ultimate, hey have decided to reinstate the unofficial rule that "Sonic must be blue", but it's otherwise the same alt. For Mewtwo, while there are plenty of monochromatic Pokemon, I do not know of any who are almost entirely black with a white underbelly other than Shadow Lugia. I'm not saying a connection is definite, to say that there isn't any connection similarity between the two is hard to believe.Nintendo101 (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

Re: Kanden
Quickly whipped this up in MS Paint for reference, in response to Nintendo101's recent edit.

The image on the left is taken from Kanden's official artwork in Metroid Prime Hunters and represents the color of his highlights in that game (as well as his trophy in Brawl). This color is directly compared to MS Paint's default lime green and yellow colors. I deemed it unnecessary to compare it with any other colors (including "normal" green).

From this, I think it's pretty clear that Kanden's highlights are predominantly yellow... or, at most, a very yellowish shade of lime. The latter could also be said about the highlights on Samus's suit, so that isn't necessarily an argument against it. --PeabodySam (talk) 17:00, 27 September 2018 (EDT)


 * I appreciate the work you put into this, but - personally - I still do not think this is as strong a case as you may think because:
 * 1.) The alt looks identical to the Dark Samus alt from Smash 4, just with yellow lights. I think it is more likely that they just changed the lighting to a different color once they decided to make Dark Samus an Echo Fighter without much referential thought (i.e. they chose yellow because it looked nice, night to reference Kaden or anyone else).
 * 2.) From my perspective, this new black alt seems slightly skewed towards orange, as oppose to the yellow in Kaden's lighting that slightly skews towards lime green. But even this cannot be accurately confirmed until Ultimate is released.
 * 3.) It breaks up the cited consistency that Samus' alts are almost all based on suit upgrades. The Dark Samus-alt in Smash 4 may have also disrupted this trend, but she is literally a dark version of Samus, unlike Kaden, who is a physically much more distinctive character.
 * Those are my 2 cents, anyways... Nintendo101 (talk) 21:07, 27 September 2018 (EDT)


 * Fair enough, but the new black alt is far from identical to the Dark Samus alt (I assume you mean SSB4, not Brawl, correct?). The Dark Samus alt was distinctly a dark shade of blue, while the new black alt is just that: black. So, it's not just the highlights that have changed; the whole costume is different. It's also worth noting that this new black alt isn't the same as the old black alt from 64 and Melee, which predated Hunters (and therefore, Kanden); if they wanted a nondescript black Samus costume, they could've easily just reused that old color scheme instead of making a new one.


 * In the end, I suppose that's why it's necessary to say that it "resembles" Kanden instead of saying it's "based on" Kanden, since we don't have any official word one way or the other. --PeabodySam (talk) 22:29, 27 September 2018 (EDT)
 * You're right, I was referring to the Dark Samus alt from Smash 4 (not the similarly named Dark Suit-inspired alt from Brawl). And I know that this alt is completely different from the ones in 64 and Melee, but I don't think that it's based on Kanden. But that's just my opinion. (I very adamantly believe Olimar's red-and-black alt is based on the s.) There's no good reason why it can't be stated that it "resembles" Kanden. I shall leave it alone. But keep in mind that "resembles" is instated when there is a pretty obvious source-of-origin for an alt without an explicit citation (in which case "based" is favored). Nintendo101 (talk) 22:38, 27 September 2018 (EDT)

Mario in Purple
I think this should be to be changed in: Resembles an outfit which consists of "L" Emblem (Luigi) and the "W" Emblem (Wario) from and Waluigi. Pokemon (talk) 06:07, 26 October 2018 (EDT)

Mario has in Paper Mario 2 then still a M on his cap. Pokemon (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2018 (EDT)

Piranha Plant Alts
https://i.imgur.com/vwzMzj3.png|thumb Mjmannella (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2018 (EDT)
 * As far as origins for the alts:


 * Green: originally from Super Mario Bros, later used to denote them having a shorter stalk.
 * Yellow: Based on the Ptooie from Yoshi's Island after taking a hit. Also used in Super Princess Peach for the Glad Piranha Plants.
 * Pink: Based on the Nipper Plants as the appear in the Super Mario All-Stars version of Super Mario Bros. 3.
 * Black: Based on the Pale Piranha from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door.
 * White: Based on the Nipper Plants as they appeared in the original NES version of Super Mario Bros. 3 and in all games starting with Yoshi's Island.
 * Purple: Taken from the Blue Piranha Plants from Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga
 * Blue: Based on either Hootie the Blue Fish from Yoshi's Island (which is actually purple) or the Frost Piranha as seen in Super Paper Mario. --Tailikku (talk) 17:53, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

I believe the more pink-ish alt seems to take inspiration from the more purple Piranha Plants, such as the Prickly Piranha Plant, rather than the purple alt what the current article states. The purple Piranha Plants generally don't have pink lips and are definitely less blue.

This pink alt here seems to have the same hue as an active, so I'd wager that is the more specific reference.

Don't forget that the pots from the odd-numbered alts also change color, not only the pipes of the even-numbered ones. The yellow alt has a more rose-colored pot, the black alt's pot has more of an orange hue, and the aforementioned purple-indigo one's is not only orange-yellow, but also is made of the same metal as the pipes. Arend (talk) 20:50, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

Piranha Plant alts
The current descriptions by tailikku are bad. Currently it is claimed that the black one is based on the pale piranha rather than the inky piranha with the reasoning with the reasoning that "The Pale Piranha predates it by a few years and is far more common". The second point is just flat out wrong as inky piranhas have appeared in 3 games compared to pale's 1. Pale piranhas also have grey stem while the black smash piranha have a green one, which matches with inky piranhas. Inky piranha's also made their debut in 3D Land, a mainline Super Mario platformer, which puts it a lot higher on the hierarchy than an rpg spinoff.

Saying that the nipper spores represent the spots on the white piranha is a massive stretch. It simply makes more sense for it to be a bone piranha as the spots simply represent the holes.

The purple description should add a mention of prickly piranhas

The reasoning for not mentioning glad piranha's is also pedantic. Gagesango (talk) 22:13, 1 November 2018 (EDT)


 * The pink one definitely resembles the Piranha Creeper from 3D World. I don't know why Tailikku is forcing a resemblance to Nippers (which do not match any of the colors exactly, lack spots, and lack prominent stalks) when there are actual Piranha Plant species that look almost exactly like these alts. I do not mean to sound accusative, but you are being awfully declarative about these dubious sources of inspirations. And if you need to argue why your attributed source of reference makes sense in the description (i.e. "Personally, I think the following would be more accurate:
 * The container Piranha Plant sits in changes with each costume. It sits in the brown pot from  by default.
 * Resembles its original design from  The pot is replaced with a green.
 * Resembles various yellow Piranha Plants from the series: the transformed king of Pipe Land from ', the  from ' after being struck once, and the  from . It sits in a magenta pot.
 * Resembles the from . It sits in a black pipe.
 * Resembles the from . It sits in a red pot.
 * Resembles the from . It sits in a yellow pipe.
 * Resembles the from . It sits in a yellow pot.
 * Resembles its blue cave sprite from Super Mario Bros. The pot is replaced with a brown pipe.
 * When I initially implemented this description, Tailikku reversed it and made very defensive arguments in response that are unsubstantiated. I will try to address them as best I can here:
 * "The Glad Piranha is just a normal Piranha Plant affected by the Joy vibe, making it look yellow." I fail to see why that matters. The point is that it looks like a yellow Piranha with a green stalk. The reasoning why its yellow doesn't really matter. There are plenty of alts in Smash based off of temporary forms, including Mario's white alt (which is based on Fire Mario) and nearly all of Samus's alts.
 * "[Nipper plants] are hot pink, it's due to the shading of the graphics." This makes no sense. There is no artwork or secondary material that suggests Nipper Plants are hot pink. Nearly all official artwork suggests that they are suppose to white. Please provide a reference if they are suppose to be hot pink (which looks like this, btw).
 * "It is not a reference to the Inky Piranha Plant. The Pale Piranha predates it by a few years and is far more common." A.) The commonality of a potential source of inspiration has never mattered. B.) It doesn't matter that the Pale Piranha Plant is "older" than the Inky Piranha - the latter looks 'identical to the alt because it has a green stalk.
 * "as it appeared in the original NES release of Super Mario Bros. 3, and later in Yoshi's Island. The spots are based on the spores that the Nippers spawn from in Yoshi's Story." If you need to explain why your reference is valid in the description itself, it's probably not as tenable as you think. Wouldn't it make more sense to have this alt be based off of the grayish white Bone Piranha, which actually has depressions in its head that resemble the spots of this alt?
 * "The Frost Piranha in previous games had a blue stalk, while in Super Paper Mario it was green". This argument doesn't matter because Piranha Plant's blue alt does not have a green or blue stalk. its yellow, like the other alt from Super Mario Bros. If it was suppose to be the Frost Piranha, surely they would have made the stalk blue or green. Instead, they specifically deviated from it.


 * I would really appreciate it if other users took a look at my arguments. Thanks! Nintendo101 (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2018 (EDT)

I think Tailikku is specifically referring to Nipper Plant's Super Mario All-Stars SMB3 rendition, since that is the only one (aside from the SMA4 port) that actually depicts a Nipper Plant pink. However, not only is it a completely different hue of pink (being more salmony red, unlike the more magenta Piranha Plant alt), but Bloopers, which are normally white as well, also appear in that remake with a rather pink hue. I'd rather stick to the Piranha Creeper comparison.

The indigo purple alt also has pink lips, which, as far as I am aware of, no purple or blue Piranha Plant actually has. There's Mom Piranha, but she only has pink lips in her red form. Her blue form has yellow lips.

The white one could be a reference to Nipper Plants, since they are in fact white, but they don't have gray spots. I personally find the Bone Piranha Plant comparison a bit of a stretch too, since Bone Piranha Plants are gray with black holes and blue lips, but I couldn't find any contender other than Nipper Plant that resembles this alt more. Arend (talk) 06:57, 2 November 2018 (EDT)


 * The Creepers and the King are a huge stretch too, since the King is orange rather than yellow, and the Creepers are purple not pink. The Nippers are a better fit as well considering their association with Piranhas (being their map icon in Super Mario Bros. 3).  Nintendo101 also seems to be unaware of the fact that Mom Piranha exists, which is also the source of the Blue Piranhas in MLSS. His argument is irrelevant. --Tailikku (talk) 09:31, 2 November 2018 (EDT)


 * You cannot just declare an argument “irrelevant” without explaining why. That’s not how good discord works. I am very aware why of the blue Piranhas from MLSS, but her head is red when her lips are pink, not purple. I think it’s a major stretch to associate the two, and that a comparison to the Prickly Piranha is much safer. You have not explained why the Nipper Plants are a strong contender for the pink alt and have cited no reference for them. You have not explained the discrepancy with the stems on the Piranha Plants (again, the Pale Piranha has a gray stalk; the Inky Piranha has a green one - why does it matter that the former is older?) Maybe we perceive colors differently: the Piranha Creeper does not look purple to me. It looks to be somewhere between magenta and hot pink. Those are the colors I would use if I were to draw it.Nintendo101 (talk) 10:15, 2 November 2018 (EDT)


 * Sigh... @Tailikku:
 * While you're technically correct that the transformed king has an orange color... Coins are displayed in the exact same hue as the Piranha Plant, and colored yellow in the SMAS remaster. And so are the ? Blocks. In fact, a lot of things that normally range from yellow to brown are displayed in this same hue in the NES version, so it's easy to understand why someone would perceive the transformed king as yellow instead of orange.
 * Both the fourth Piranha Plant alt and the Piranha Creeper are displayed in this purple-ish magenta hue, not the hot pink one that the Nipper Plant is displayed in the 16-bit SMB3 remaster (which is, btw, the only time that they're displayed pink. Nipper Plants have been 99% of the time completely white). Here's a Piranha Creeper in Captain Toad, maybe you'll see the comparison better. It's definitely not as huge a stretch as you claim it is, especially considering Piranha Creepers have the exact same heads as Piranha Plants, albeit in a different color. Nipper Plant head don't have spots nor lips, and have eyes unlike a Piranha Plant.
 * As I said before, Mom Piranha's lips are only pink in her red coloration, while her blue coloration has yellow lips. It's not a very good comparison.
 * Arend (talk) 11:09, 2 November 2018 (EDT)
 * I get it. You say that it's supposed to be the King post transformation, but it still looks more orange than yellow.
 * That's still purple. It only looks pink due to the apparent haze.  The Nippers are still a closer connection due to how they are eyeless in the Yoshi games. On top of that, the Nippers in Super Princess Peach have a pink-ish hue to them.  Likewise, Dino Piranha and Peewee Piranha are also purple in hue
 * You're also forgetting that the eggshell worn by Mom Piranha also changes color in the GBA version, but stays the same color in the 3DS version. Even then, the Blue Piranhas in the game have the same white lips as the normal Red Piranhas.
 * As for why I keep insisting the Pale Piranha is the black color, this is because of the fact that the Inky Piranha has a black streak near the bulb, something not on the black color. If it was, then it would have that same streak.  But since it doesn't, the Pale Piranha is a closer match.  In fact, the Japanese version calls the Pale Piranha as "Pakkun Flower", which is the common enemy's name in comparison to the one found in the Pit of 100 Trials, which is called the "Killer Piranha" in Japan.
 * --Tailikku (talk) 19:11, 2 November 2018 (EDT)


 * If you think that, fair enough, I suppose.
 * The Pink alt still looks as purple as the Piranha Creeper in this screenshot from the official site. Also, using Nipper Plants from both SMAS and Yoshi's Island to prove your point is an unfair comparison. The versions in Yoshi's Island may be eyeless, but they're completely white (with a slight yellow-ish hue). The ones in SMAS and Super Princess Peach (the latter is still mainly white with a pinkish hue) still have eyes. And it's still a different kind of pink.
 * It would be weird to consider this pinkish alt to refer to Nipper Plant anyway, since as early as the original SMB3, they've been depicted as white, even in artwork, and they're still depicted as white in the recent games. SMAS is an exception because many white things in that remaster gained a pink or orange hue, such as Blooper.
 * I didn't know eggshells were the same thing as lips. Sorry man, but if you're telling me that an alt is based on Mom Piranha due to the lips being pink, but only in the red form, yet it still applies to the blue form because the eggshell remains in the same color... then you're grasping at straws to prove a point.
 * Here's the thing, while the Inky Piranha's stem is black at the bulb, the rest of the stem, including the leaves, is just as green as your regular Piranha Plant, just like with the black alt in Smash (I should also note, that the Inky Piranha Plant in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team doesn't even have the black streak near the bulb, and that the stem is entirely green there). Pale Piranha's stem, on the other hand, is grayed out in its entirety, so it matches with its surrounding area, the Boggly Woods. All the native enemies you meet there are grayed out, including the Clefts, which were brown in the first game.
 * Arend (talk) 08:42, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

I noticed while trying to add more info, that now the page has been locked with this guy's edits in place, even though everyone agreed that they were incorrect. Is it going to have to stay like this? — Qyzxf (talk) 08:23, 4 November 2018 (EST)

K. Rool new costume
I found this K.Rool costume: https://imgur.com/a/smFCSiH The cape is green but what color is his body? red or brown?

it's brown. --VoyagerDefault (talk) 02:11, 2 November 2018 (EDT)

Piranha Plant
this are also possibly: Pokemon (talk) 04:22, 2 November 2018 (EDT)
 * Pink: Bungee Piranha (officially purple), (Dino Piranha and Peewee Piranha)
 * Blue: Frost Piranha and the Ghost
 * Gold: Gold Piranha Plant
 * Black: Pale Piranha
 * Purple: Big Bungee Piranha

NES Simon Alternate Costume?
Found this located on a now archived 4chan thread, but it looks to resemble Simon's NES color scheme from Castlevania. Vespacito (talk) 04:26, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
 * I have reason to beleive that this skin is actually based on the X68K version of Castlevania, rather than the NES version, since that's what the default is implying.--Tailikku (talk) 11:16, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure it's actually neither, I'm mostly certain that it's based on Julius Belmont, since all other recolours except the first red/gold one are based on other Castlevania CharactersBlueLeo (talk) 20:09, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Every skin found, compiled here into a video
I didn't create the video, but this was shared with others in a Smash Ultimate Discord server I moderate for. (Link is in the post below, original got deleted.) Vespacito (talk) 07:16, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

EDIT: yo thanks Wolfger and Voqéo for the push and the updated link <3

ALL of the Alt colors for Smash Ultimate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz44BlBVhdQ All right here in this video. Ya welcome -- WolfgerLynel (talk) 08:55, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

That video seems to be unavailable, but here is one that works. .  Voqéo T  09:09, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

I recommend everyone download the video, or at least someone willing to work on the monster project of screenshotting them all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoshiboshi3 (talk • contribs) 09:11, 3 November 2018 (EDT)
 * I downloaded the mirror just in case, but I'm not really motivated to splice together the images because the video is rather low quality. Although the previous one we used was a little oversaturated, this one is downright murky, like there's a gray haze over everything. Between that and the stock icons covering up the portraits... meh. SuperFalconBros (talk) 12:44, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

Here is another video showcasing all the Ultimate costumes as the previous video here appears to have been removed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDSuAY3qiQg &#32;Wolff (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

(Whoops! I did not see the second link to the exact video I put. Sorry about that.) &#32;Wolff (talk) 21:05, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

Right here. We can replace them with ripped artwork once that becomes available. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 22:48, 3 November 2018 (EDT)

I uploaded Ken, Simon and Richters alternate costumes yesterday and only Ken has been used on this page. RandomPerson (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2018 (EST)

Shouldn't all the characters that appeared in the earlier demos get their Alternate costume art updated completely instead of adding any changes to the older pictures? (Villager and Ridley. Plus Pichu's costumes are in the wrong order) It would make it match everyone else's, and the newer pictures seem to be larger than the demo pics. Plus, the newer pictures do not seem to have that blue background the demos had. &#32;Wolff (talk) 18:34, 4 November 2018 (EST)
 * I don't think consistency between the current images is very important, considering they're mostly low-quality hodgepodges, and will all be replaced with nice clean images soon enough. SuperFalconBros (talk) 22:03, 4 November 2018 (EST )

The order of Incineroar and Pichu's alternate costumes are wrong. RandomPerson (talk) 04:31, 5 November 2018 (EST)

Simon / Richter's color palette info
Did some digging around based on artwork and sprites, and I managed to find most of what Richter's costumes point a reference to.
 * 1) Rondo of Blood / Harmony of Despair
 * 2) Christopher Belmont
 * 3) ??? (maybe death's color palette from HoD? or Maria's DXC/Judgement palette?)
 * 4) Maria Renard (SotN)
 * 5) John Morris (artwork)
 * 6) Symphony of the Night
 * 7) Alucard
 * 8) Soma Cruz

And here's what I could locate for Simon's. Vespacito (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2018 (EST)
 * 1) Castlevania 4 artwork (brown armor)
 * 2) Castlevania 2 artwork (red and gold armor)
 * 3) (original submission is good, but would have guessed Maxim Kischine first)
 * 4) ??? (wasn't able to find this one)
 * 5) (original submission is good)
 * 6) Joachim Armster
 * 7) Trevor Belmont (sprite)
 * 8) ??? (or this one)


 * I've already pointed out that Richter's outfits are all from Harmony of Despair, with the Green one being the Curse status in Rondo of Blood. All of Simon's are based on his appearances in the series, rather than other Belmonts. --Tailikku (talk) 11:20, 5 November 2018 (EST)

Imgur post with all skins
This should help for keeping everything looking the same, plus helps fill in for missing characters. https://imgur.com/a/M2Ol8bB Vespacito (talk) 21:18, 4 November 2018 (EST)

K. Rool outfits
Not wanting to start another edit war, but I want to clear things up regarding K. Rool's alternate colors. The Brown outfit coukd represent the Barrel Blast version of Klump, but it closer matches Rock Kroc from the first game, with the green cap referencing the only level where he can be found: Stop and Go Station.
 * The blue, red, and black outfits are from DK: King of Swing's Jungl Jam mode, not references to different colored Kritters in the original game.
 * The pink outfit is based on Klump (and to a lesser extent Kannon) from the original game (and its sequel) who is considered to be pink, rather than brown. The only brown Klump was in Barrel Blast, although it's likely that Paon named him Klump not knowing that there was a pre-existing Klunp.
 * The Yellow outfit is a reference to Kutlass in the second game, rather than Kopter. The reason being is because of the fact that the outfit matches Kutlass' more than Kopter's, as Kopter is yellow and green rather than yellow and black.  The outfit could also match that of King Zing or Queen B, both Zinger bosses in the first two games.
 * The white outfit is based on Kudgel from the second game, as he has a similar model to K. Rool, going off of Klubba's in the GBA version, of whom Kudgel is a palette swap of. --Tailikku (talk) 09:41, 5 November 2018 (EST)

Few pointers: Arend (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2018 (EST)
 * The blue, red and black outfits have different colored capes compared to their Jungle Jam counterparts. In Smash, the supposed red outfit has a purple cape, the blue one has an orange-red one and the black one's is maroon with a purple gem. In Jungle Jam, the red one has a green cape, the blue one has a purple one and the gray one (which is in fact noticably lighter than the Smash outfit) bears a yellow cape. Since the cape colors do not match at all, I think it's safer to assume most of these are based on the Kremling minions.
 * In fact, I'm not even sure the red alt in Smash is even red, compared to the presumed brown alt. The red alt appears a lot more brown-orange-ish while the brown alt has a ruddy tone (not to mention it has the green cape just like the red Jungle Jam alt). However, I could be mistaken, so I'll wait until we get high quality pictures.
 * This is another Piranha Creeper situation, because to me, Klump has looked brown to me, but with a purplish tone. Klump has looked pink once, though, in Donkey Kong 64, but neither the purple-brown nor the pink skintone resemble the magenta-purple alt of K. Rool anyway.
 * Kutlass is a greenish yellow. K. Rool's yellow alt is a bit darker, more of a mustard yellow. In that regard, it resembles Kopter's appearance in DK Barrel Blast... whose colorscheme is in fact (mustard) yellow and black, rather than yellow and very, very dark green.
 * Neither Rock Krok nor Klump are reddish brown like K. Rool's brown alt.
 * Kudgel is clearly gray, just like the gray Jungle Jam palette you try to sell as K. Rool's black alt. In fact, K. Rool's gray Jungle Jam palette looks just as gray as Kudgel, so neither would be able to reference both K. Rool's black or white alts.

Agreed. The mismatch of the capes means that they don't come from King of Swing. It's much more likely they come from reddish, bluish, and blackish Kremlings and Kritters generally than those super specific sprites. I can even pull a couple examples that fit better than the highly saturated King of Swing sprites, and more in line with the ruddy, desaturated colors of the original DKC trilogy. Like yeah he had a Blue and a Red alt, but what game with alts doesn't give almost any character at least red, blue, green, yellow, and either black or white as go to's? Furballcan (talk) 03:47, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Oh, and another thing I forgot to mention, regarding the brown alt supposedly being Rock Kroc: personally, I'd find it a HUGE stretch if the brown alt's green cape supposedly references the Stop and Go Station level, considering this supposedly refers to their environment rather than their actual design (and it's interchangable green lighting at that, which turns red when deactivating the Rock Krocs). Klump at the very least wore a green helmet and belt in his original design. BTW, a thing regarding your current theory that the white K. Rool alt references : first of all, Mr X is bluish gray with no other signs of blue, which automatically makes him a bit of a stretch. Second, I'm not completely sure why Nintendo would reference a beta element that doesn't appear in the final game whatsoever. Arend (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2018 (EST)


 * Again, regarding the Kritters: it's a huge stretch to claim that they are the source of K. Rool's colors, when he already had them in Jungle Jam mode.  For Kutlass, he has the exact same skin color as Kopter, although Kopter's is slightly greener because of his gear.  The Skidda bit is also a stretch since Skidda's belly is white, compared to Klump's which is gold, which also matches the one in the skin.  Likewise, Klump was pink three times:  The original game, as "Kanon" in the second, and then in DK64. Regarding the bit about Mr. X, explain the Dark Samus white skin?  "I'm not completely sure why Nintendo would reference a beta element that doesn't appear in the final game whatsoever."  When they clearly just did with her, so why not K. Rool?  --Tailikku (talk) 08:24, 6 November 2018 (EST)


 * Again; the cape colors in Jungle Jam don't match. If those three K. Rool alts in Smash were supposed to reference the Jungle Jam palettes, you'd think they'd give their respective capes the same color. Saying that they could refer to other Kremlings instead, is actually not that huge of a stretch considering there are many, many red or blue Kremlings, and even some gray ones (it's at least not as huge of a stretch as saying a white alt resembles an unused enemy that's not even white).
 * Official artwork depict Kutlass bright greenish yellow, not the mustard yellow like the K. Rool alt, as I said before, which much more resembles Kopter rom Barrel Blast... which I also said before.
 * I didn't mention Skidda, but his skin color resembles the purple K. Rool alt much more than Klump does. As for the belly, there's still the Kritters from the GBA port of Donkey Kong Country.
 * Also, good job picking the brownest DKC1 Klump art of the bunch. That artwork clearly depicts him as brown, not pink, and so do his sprites.
 * I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison. The gray Dark Samus skin still possibly refers to a beta design of Dark Samus. You say that K. Rool's white skin possibly refers to an unused enemy that's being replaced by another enemy. And not only don't either of them have any ties to K. Rool himself (aside from being his minions), but neither of them are even white. It sounds like a bit of a stretch, and I think it rather resembles either an elusive white crocodile, or possibly nothing in particular (which is extremely possible since there's many Smash alts that don't resemble anything in particular).
 * Arend (talk) 09:41, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Dark Samus
It appears the seventh color for Dark Samus would be based after Metroid Prime's power beam color. The black and yellow resemble it well, and the maroon appears similar to a in its exoskeleton form. Crystanium (talk) 12:26, 5 November 2018 (EST)

Seeing that the colors are off by a bit, is it possible that the sixth suit's color is actually blue instead of gray? If so, it would probably match. ShadowMario3 (talk) 23:49, 5 November 2018 (EST)
 * You could be right, but I don't think you can make a claim like until the game is out and we get a better sense of how accurate the colors are. However, I find it highly suspect that there is concept art of Dark Samus where she is gray with an red orange visor. I don't see a lot of reason at this point to speculate that it could represent anything else. Nintendo101 (talk) 00:08, 6 November 2018 (EST)

I come bringing another potential color match. The gold Dark Samus may be based off the Mogenar from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Both have a golden body with blue lighting. There is also the dull red colors at the ridges of the pauldrons. Or, it could be Golden Torizo, although this seems unlikely, simply because it wasn't part of the Metroid Prime trilogy. Crystanium (talk) 16:36, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Chrom outfits
For what is shown during the Spirits section of the Direct, Chroms has an outfit based on his nephew Owain, besides from looking very similar, Owain's spirit is possesing him, showing that the costume IS based on him. That outfit is his fourth´s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2203 (talk • contribs) 19:03, 5 November 2018

Falco
The "default" outfit has an error, is based on Star Fox Zero not Star Fox Command. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2203 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 5 November 2018
 * I changed this. Please sign your talk page comments with four tildes:  SuperFalconBros (talk) 20:57, 5 November 2018 (EST)

Wolf
His second outfit (Brown) is much more similar to his Star Fox Zero / Star Link outfit than the maroon one where it's currently listed. By virtue of the second costume typically having some significance across the board, and more specifically here - the greenish neckerchief referencing his similarly greenish collar Furballcan (talk) 04:13, 6 November 2018 (EST)

Roy
It's Not Pink it's Lavender Starfan13 3:18, 7 November 2018