Talk:Character matchup (SSBB)

This doesn't seem like the official match-up list. Also, the chart isn't very accurate, as Mr. Game & Watch does not hold a 50:50 match-up with Meta Knight. I've seen his match-up discussion threads (though unofficial, they are made by expert Meta Knight/Mr. Game & Watch players), and it says that the match-up is 40:60, Meta Knight with the advantage (scroll down a bit). Could we see the link to where you found this? - Masq  (t/c/e) 02:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur, but sadly, I lack the ability to change anything. Even if I could, I wouldn't know what to insert.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  02:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could delete the image and insert a template? If we could, I'd update it with the match-up lists on Smash Boards happily. Why can't you change anything...? - Masq  (t/c/e) 02:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a PoS laptop >.> But your idea sounds good. Are you still going to have the match up chart?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  03:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but in a template, so we can change it as the metagame and matchups do. Now, the big hole in this plan as that we have no template...

Wasn't there a project a long time ago to make matchup pages for every character? If we can't find a template, then maybe we could just make a page showing character's matchups, and writing information about them. It would give people a lot more information, as the pages would be more in-depth, rather then just showing a chart. - Masq  (t/c/e) 03:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Category
Could someone please categorize this page, I can't think of a category for it.-- Mystery Heff   TALK  08:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

New Matchup Chart
I have uploaded a current matchup chart, but it will change as the character boards discuss the remaining matchups, so it will have to be updated when the matchup threads are. However, there is already somebody doing this, and a the new picture will just have to be updated, and the old one deleted. You can find the thread here: - Masq  (t/c/e) 20:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * While images are fine, I think I may have a way to make it easier to update matchup charts. While you were putting up the new image, I was adding templates that make a matchup chart as easy as a table:


 * Tables are a bit faster (and at times easier) to update, since anyone can do it (not just the person who made the image). We'll have to add the small-character-head images, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. What do you think? Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

A table sounds fine, but I don't really like the idae of using the SSBB symbols for them, as there are only five, and there are many more ratios then just those. I'd prefer numbers to images. - Masq  (t/c/e) 20:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I'll start working on a matchup table using that chart you just uploaded as a base. It may take a while, but it should be worth it. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  21:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Table-based chart ready for transferral
I have completed the table-based matchup chart. It can be seen in its holding house here. (Yes, I spelled the page wrong. :P I guess I was anxious to get started.) Please comment on it. I will place it on this page in a few days is there are no comments. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I forgot to uncheck the Minor Edit box. People won't notice this if it's a minor edit.

Okay then, since no one's commented, I've put in the table-based chart as promised. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  18:54, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks good, but is there anyway to put the character's heads in? It would be much easier to identify the characters on the sides, as some people may not get which character it is based on two letters. - Masq  (t/c/e) 15:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't have access to the character head symbols (unless they're hidden in this wiki somewhere), but I can add in the icons. They'd have to be pretty small, though: Is that good enough? Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  18:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They're not here already, but those icons are hard to see when they're so small. Check around Smashboards, though; I'm pretty sure they're out there.  Miles ( talk)   21:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Character head icons uploaded and used. Looks a lot better now. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  22:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Latest Match-up Chart
I'll be the first to offer up my opinion and say: MY EYES. I'm not exaggerating when I say the colors are painful to look at. Can the colors be toned down? Also, the page stretch is pretty bad, even with my widescreen set-up. It's bound to be even worse on smaller/narrower screens. Can it be changed again? Simpler = better! - (U • T • C ) 09:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've faded the row colours, that should look less cringe-worthy. But are you suggesting that using a single image instead of a dynamic table takes up less space on a page? The [:File:Matchup.jpg|original matchup image]] is about the same size as the table, and the [:File:Match-upcharttier-8.jpg|more recent one] is a decent amount bigger. So to me, horizontal stretch is inevitable for this page. Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  12:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think the rows need to be a little bit bolder, or just pure black as opposed to the Cyan and Black. But, as much as I like the current one, ] -- ~The Blue  Blur~ '''New main in training! 13:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As Masq stated, though, we can't only use symbols for matchups. There are too many ratios now to use anything other than numbers, and numbers are a lot larder to shrink than icons. That's why I used images with numbers in them: not only do images make it easier to add colour, but images can (and do) have a caption that appears on rollover in case you can't read it. (And the rows aren't cyan and black, they're faded versions of the character's primary colour.) Toomai Glittershine eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  14:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Still harsh on the eyes. Why not a simple alternation of grey and white columns/rows? [[File:SDFnW_SmashWiki_sig.gif]] - (U • T • C ) 22:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's good enough for iTunes... Miles ( talk)   22:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Some matchups reasons

 * Sheik-Ganondorf is 95-5 for Sheik because:Any percent-stock lead means for Sheik use Chain Jacket Glitch to get completely safe from Ganondorf.
 * Ganondorf would win Mr. Game & Watch is Ganondorf would have a safe approach on Mr Game & Watch.
 * Many matchups given in Ganondorf boards in Smash World Forums are exagerated. And a Ganondorf has beaten Ice Climbers in a high level tournament by 2-0.
 * Wolf's terrible matchup against King Dedede is probably the only reason why he is not higher. Firewario (talk) 08:56, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Why???
Some of the matchups on the chart make no sense in that for some it's A vs B is 50-50 even and the "Mirror" B vs A is 45-55. Why is this??? Atomix26 (talk) 19:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The mirror numbers are actually based on two seperate think tanks, which I guess should be explained in the article. Take the MK vs. Wario matchup for example. The Wario people at SmashBoards agree amongst themselves that Wario has an even 50:50 matchup with MK, so Wario has a 50 in his MK column. However, the MK mainers think that MK has a slight 55:45 advantage, giving MK a 55 in his Wario column. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not good. We need to keep this consistent.  Regardless of what character is being played by whom, the theoretical match-ups remain the same.  If the Meta-Knight people think one thing and the Wario people think another, that's nice, but the match-up chart is supposed to be purely a theoretical mathematical representation of the win-loss distribution of each match up.  There can't be unequal mirrors; go with 47.5-52.5 if you must, but don't leave it like this.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 14:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "The match-up chart is supposed to be purely a theoretical mathematical representation of the win-loss distribution of each match up."
 * That's the best-case scenario, yes, and I would think that it would naturally come to that once the metagame is almost completely stable. However, I think it is unfeasible to forcibly conform it right now, mostly because some matchups have no numerical rating yet. Also, I would argue that the difference between the thoughts of both sides of a matchup is so small (5 points, usually) that it doesn't really matter. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  14:47, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Please remove the 'official' tag
This chart is the farthest thing possible from 'official', and labelling it as such is extremely misleading.

To be honest this shouldn't even exist yet. Maybe another 6 months and things will look accurate. Uploading a chart that is not complete while full of disagreements between boards on ratios is a very bad thing to do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.126.206 (talk • contribs) 14:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why should this chart not exist yet? Is it a bad thing that it does?  Besides, the chart is only meant to represent what the character boards believe the match-up ratio to be.  They are not set in stone.  However I do agree that the official part should be removed.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 23:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

King Dedede's Chain Grabs
Please, someone make the DK/DDD, Samus/DDD, Mario/DDD, Luigi/DDD and Bowser/DDD matchups divided with one with the infinite and other without the infinite. Firewario (talk) 11:40, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I assmue "the" infinite is powerful enough to alter the matchups significantly, correct? Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  14:07, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's devastating. For example the King Dedede/Donkey Kong matchup is considered 60/40 in King Dedede's favour (still very winnable) if the walking chain grab and infinite chain grab are banned. With the chain grabs it's like 90/10 or even worse. Firewario (talk) 17:37, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Minor side note: please make a new section when you want to raise a new issue, and indent your responses to other users' comments by placing one more : before your comment than they placed before theirs. Thanks,  Penguin  of  Death   21:28, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I'd recommend a separate, detached row under the main table. Or else put it only on the King Dedede (SSBB) page. Also, each character's matchup row should go on their SSBB page. Miles ( talk)  21:44, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

No matchup charts for 64 and Melee? Yagomus (talk) 20:39, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * No. There's an outdated Melee one All Characters Match-Up Chart|here, and I don't think people really ever analyzed the 64 matchups. I guess this page is slightly mistitled in that way (having only a a Brawl chart), but realistically most of the Smash Bros. population plays mostly Brawl anyway. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:48, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

SSB and melee matchups
Can someone please put the SSB and melee matchup charts up? I think someone uploaded the SSB one and i'll try to put it up. As for the Melee one, can someone try to find it, upload it, and place it? That would help a lot. 98.117.158.220 05:04, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Article splitting
I think that we should keep this page as a general explanation of what matchups are, but have the matchups for each game on seperate pages (such as Character matchups (SSB), Character matchups (SSBM), and Character matchups (SSBB)). For one thing, if all the matchups were on one page, it'd be ginormous. Toomai Glittershine  eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  18:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * That incentive is legitimate enough for my support. Are you going to separate the articles by yourself or would you like me to?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  18:48, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 19:13, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * NO. You might as well seperate the tier list into three seperate articles. Can you please undo this? 98.117.158.220 01:24, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tier list might actually work well split; you'd have enough room to put all the historical data for each game's development (like making note of the Ice Climber's shot upwards in SSBM when wobbling appeared). But anyway, do you have a particular reason why you really don't like this split? Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:08, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it was fine as one article. I see no point in the split. It the article wouldn't be that long if all three matchup charts were one. 98.117.158.220 02:19, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggested a split because of a few things. Someone elsewhere was wondering about the SSB64 matchups and where to put them. Since the SSBM matchups already had their own article (in a sense), I thought that a split would be the best thing - and in any case, the page had to be renamed at the least ("character matchups" implies either everything at once, or a short explanation followed by links to the specifics, which is more modular and controllable). Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  03:32, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why not put them all in one article? If that same person was looking for the SSB64 matchups, all they would need to do is type in "matchup", leading them to a page with all three matchup charts. There, it would be easy to find the chart that they want. 98.117.158.220 04:57, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

OK, nobody has responded to me. Again, give me a good reason why we shouldn't have one big Matchup article? Mr. Anon (talk) 23:28, 31 October 2010 (EDT)
 * Because it'll be big. Not big in terms of hard to edit, but big in terms of loading and general visual complexity. Also, why would anyone want to be looking at all three games' matchup charts at once? Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png 07:27, 1 November 2010 (EDT)
 * So that they don't have to go to a different page to compare matchups between games. The tier lists are all on one page, as a comparison. Mr. Anon (talk) 21:02, 1 November 2010 (EDT)
 * List of NTSC tier lists could frankly do with a split, it's 77,440 bytes long (third-fattest page on the wiki). Putting the three matchup tables together would be a total of 85,948 bytes (5,785 bytes bigger than Adventure Mode: The Subspace Emissary, the second-biggest page), and that's without the page around the tables, which would be another 1,500 or 2,000. This is not chump change, having a page almost triple the recommended size cutoff (32,000) is not worth the trivial benefit of knowing how matchups have changed between games. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png 22:22, 1 November 2010 (EDT)


 * Whoa, if it takes up that much room, I guess you're right. Mr. Anon (talk) 01:36, 6 November 2010 (EDT)

whoa
Why so many "undocumented" matchups this time around? Particularly Ike and Fox. I mean, I might be forgetful, but I'm fairly certain Ike and Fox both had more than 10 determined matchups.  --Havoc Reaper '48  20:56, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I take the data for this chart fom a SmashBoards thread, and the guy who does it there blanks matchups discussed in threads that are over a year old. I think it's an good idea, since a year-old matchup ratio is probably no longer accurate. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  21:03, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism?
Have you noticed that someone has changed some characters' heads? Link's head is Ness's and Pokémon Trainer's head is R.O.B's and something like that. Is it vandalism? Juusto423 (talk) 15:55, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that a subtle stab at the current tier list? The table is ordered by the tier list and cannot be edited by IPs, and if there was any vandalism I'd have fixed it already. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  16:06, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things i noticed that i dont entirely understand

 * ok why is it that on some characters its undocumented yet when you look at others its got the match up for them when its the exact same match up like if you look at sonics row you see his chances of beating sheik are 40:60 yet if you look at sheiks you would think it would say 60:40 but its undocumented another example is dk and pkmn trainer
 * 2 how come for some of the match ups its different even though they are the same thing, such as when you look at zss on meta knight its 60:40 but when you look at meta knight on zss's row its 45:55 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.89.233.34 (talk • contribs) 20:49, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Each row is the opinion of that character's subforum on SmashBoards. The ZSS mains think their matchup with MK is 45:55, while the MK mains think it's 60:40. The Sonic mains think their matchup with Sheik is 40:60, while the Sheik mains haven't discussed it yet or aren't in agreement over a rating. Yeah, it's not intuitive, but until the metagame is completely stable there's no real alternative. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:59, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Zelda/Sheik
I have a question, are there any match-ups for Zelda/Sheik? Since the designation has been added to the tier list, I would guess that the Zelda/Sheik combination would have some match-ups (though I don't know, that's why I'm asking). If the problem is a lack of an icon for it there's one on Smash Boards we may be able to use... T.c.w7468 (talk) 12:56, 21 February 2011 (EST)
 * The matchups listed are the matchup ratios reported by the individual character boards at SWF. Us not having matchups listed here is due to the fact that there are no "official" matchup ratios reported for Zheik (to my knowledge). Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:34, 21 February 2011 (EST)

Really?
It specifically says tiers don't affect it, but it's obviously the tier list. It counteracts itself when saying that it does not mean that that will always happen, but it is based on the tier list, which is said to always be accurate, which it's not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.196.248 (talk • contribs) 11: 32, 12 July 2011 (EDT)
 * Stop whining about tiers please,we know they aren't all that accurate. Forb idden 7 [[File:MewtwoHeadSSBM.png]] 11:35, 12 July 2011 (EDT)
 * Matchups are based on what the consensus is for each individual matchup, a character's position on the tier list is irrelevant to how well they play against a specific character. Also sign your comments with four tildes ~ . Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 11:45, 12 July 2011 (EDT)

Matchup icons
Not sure where else to put this, but the matchup icons need to be edited, so they display the proper number (ie +2), rather than an incorrect ratio (ie 6/8). Too many users on the Wiki (which I'm sure apply to readers who don't use Smashboards), are mistaking these for being matchup ratios, when a +2 matchup is not to indicate a matchup with a 6/8 ratio of winning. Omega  Tyrant   12:47, 24 March 2012 (EDT)
 * How many is "too many"? Is there some event that spurred this observation? Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png The SMASH-GINEER 17:59, 24 March 2012 (EDT)
 * General observation since its inception, from what users post on their userpage, and on the IRC. Nearly every user here when referring to matchups, says "6/8", rather than the proper "+2", and seem to think of it is a matchup ratio, rather than realising the number used here is to tell the template what icon to use. Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:16, 24 March 2012 (EDT)

It may be just me, but my eyes sting from having to look for the + and -s. I prefered the old mathup chart icons. Is it possible to have those with the + & - signs? (Oh, my burning eyes!) Meta   Ike    20:08, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
 * I don't see how the old icons plus the +/- signs would be any different than the current ones in terms of how easy it is to count the signs. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png The Zesty 20:44, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
 * I guess it is just me. Anyway, now I've gotten used to it, so it really doesn't matter. If this is more accurate then the older version, keep it. Meta   Ike  MetaIke.png  16:01, 28 March 2012 (EDT)
 * Honestly those plusses and minuses are hard to see, the off colors are too close to the on colors, and I generally have to rely on the colors themselves to get any idea what it means, or mouse over. I think a simple +1 or -2 in grey would be simple enough, or at least greying the symbols. 76.1.7.98 15:38, 18 April 2012 (EDT)

King Dedede/Pit
I'm not sure if we can do anything but, i this Pit should have a worse match up against King Dedede because I played against a rank 9 computer pit on final destination *Note: i just got the game* and i could only beat him with King Dedede so if it could be moved up to a +3 match-up i think it would be more accurate. Mich 5643 19:26, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
 * This chart isn't down to us to decide, this is an official thing within the Smash community, decided on websites such as SmashBoards. And CPU's are not an accurate way to judge. Toast  Wii U Logo Transparent.png ltimatum Transparent Swadloon.png 19:30, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
 * To expand, this matchup chart is the one the BBR made, not one we made. And cpus are never used to determine matchups, as they can never play anywhere near as well as a professional using the character can. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:54, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
 * The Matchups use very good smashers of equal skill to determine the matchups, and we are not responsible for these matchups. ..... The Cutest NintenNESsprite.png 19:58, 28 April 2012 (EDT)
 * I thought we couldn't do anything. I was just hoping I could help, thanks anyways. Mich 5643[[File:Mich5643Signature.png]] 07:27, 29 April 2012 (EDT)

Matchups
Why are some of the matchups on the chart different than the chart shown on the Smashboards forum ? (For example, on this one Yoshi has a -1 against the ICs and a 0 against Olimar, but on the Smashboards one, he has a -1 against Olimar and a 0 against the ICs.) Also, why so some individual character matchups differ (for example, King Dedede's panel says that he has a -1 against Zelda/Sheik, but Zelda/Sheik's panel says that she has a 0 against Dedede)? Scr7 12:56, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
 * Maybe someone updated it wrong. I might as well reverify the whole thing. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Wacko 16:44, 3 July 2013 (EDT)

Actual matchup chart
On the Smashboards article, there are some matchups that are different than the ones on the sheet here: Diddy Kong/Wario is -1/+1 rather than 0/0, Marth/Sonic is 0/0 rather than +1/-1, and Samus/Zelda is +1/-1 rather than +2/-2. Those were the 3 I found. If it is permissible, may I edit them (as well as any other possible differences) to reflect the actual Smashboards chart? Or are we using different sources besides Smashboards to develop the chart? I would love to know. Thanks! -Thatonesmasher