Talk:Marth (SSBB)/Forward aerial

No Way that frame advantage on shield is correct.
How the hell is Marth's forward air -4/-8 on shield? Do you realize how unsafe that is? Here's how you calculate frame advantage on shield: shield stun of the attack minus landing lag. Marth's forward air in brawl has 9 frames of ending lag, a considerable increase from the 7 frames of L canceled lag he had in melee (yes 2 frames or even 1 extra frame of disadvantage means the difference between being safe or punished), meaning a tipper fair deals only 1 frame of shield stun and a non tipper fair deals 5 frames of shield stun. That is not right. And even if the math was right, a tipper fair cant possibly be that unsafe. A shield grab is a 6 frames. Fox's up smash out of shield is 7 frames. That means you can harshly punish tipper fair every time it hits a shield. I haven't played brawl in a long time yes, but that is just absurd. -- Brian Don't try me! 22:51, 20 January 2014 (EST)
 * One source I found that claims those numbers (of -4 and -8) is this topic apparently; it puts together a shield stun of 10/13 and a shield hitlag of 5/11 (both of which seem reasonable) to get a best advantage of -4/-8. I have no idea what formula they used to get that result; they name a formula but it doesn't work and makes no sense. It's a super-old topic anyway (Nov 2008). Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 23:52, 20 January 2014 (EST)

I disagree with the shield stun claims as well; in Melee the formula is floor[(X + 4.45)/2.235]. Tipper fair does 13% in Melee (and brawl) so it does 7 frames of shield stun. When you L cancel the fair, you get 7 frames of landing lag. This means fair is +0 in Melee, which is why if you hit a shield with it you can dash dance away immediately (best mind game ever. This also goes back to my original point: the minus 8 is largely unsafe by comparison. If fair actually that unsafe in brawl (which OT will vehemently deny), I will mention that in the article. If the Math is wrong like I think it is, I'll remove the erroneous claim.-- Brian Don't try me! 05:12, 21 January 2014 (EST)

It says the landing lag is 8 and not 9 frames. If shield stun is 5 frames and landing lag is 8 frames and then you sum 1 frame (meaning that you hit a shield one frame before landing), then the frame advantage becomes 5-8-1 = -4 on block. And for tipper Fair if it has 1 frame shield stun instead of 5 then you subtract 4 frames and it becomes -8 on block. Actually -4 on block is pretty amazing by Brawl standards. Very few moves are that safe on block. There is really no OoS options other than power shield cancels (3 frames or faster moves usually don't punish very hard) and Mario's Up b that hit within 4 frames. The fastest shield grabs are frame 6. That means that Marth can either sidestep or Dolphin Slash shield grab attempts if he Fairs a frame before landing (although that's usually very risky). Usually those options are really risky, but hey, any option you can get matters in high level. -8 tipper on block? I don't really have problems with it. When I tipper it I almost always end up outside their grab range anyway and the tipper hitbox is pretty small so you really don't have to space poorly to hit with the non-tipper hitbox on shields. That's one thing I really enjoy with Marth: mixing between sweetspots and non-sweetspots for extra options.

Also Marth's Fair is a move that is really easy to space outside shield grabs with once you have mastered the spacing tech skill. With great spacing and proper retreating (which is a really safe option against almost any character not named Meta Knight) even Dedede's shield grab can be avoided (also remember that Marth has better air mobility in Brawl and it's good enough to space pretty consistently with, especially if you know how to double jump for spacing) and you can even mindgame with Fair and hit their shield while crossing theme up to end up behind them. Those options are even riskier against Meta Knight however because of his ridiculous grounded Shuttle Loop invincibility and range so against him Marth has to be aware of that move when pressuring him with Fair. The thing with Marth's Fair is that being too predictable with it can make it pretty punishable (you could then just reposition and then intercept his Fair or do the same but instead of attacking just powershielding the Fair and shield grabbing it), but there are so many ways to space with it and it's still pretty damn safe that he can make it very hard to punish. Like for example, if they approach you while you are trying to Fair you can just retreat more than normal and take advantage of their hurtbox extending to hit them, and if they don't all which happens is just losing a slight bit of space. Personally I use it a lot for offensive pressure and it has worked really well for me. Brawl Marth is worse than Melee Marth in some ways, but when it comes to Brawl Marth Fair it's a move even Meta Knight would love to have.

Also Fox's Usmash is 9 frames OoS not 7 (his Usmash is 8 frames and he has to use at least 1 frame to jump cancel it I believe). 78.72.176.93 08:48, 27 January 2014 (EST)