Talk:Monado Arts

Category Addition?
The Monado Arts, along with Palutena's Lightweight and WFT's Deep Breathing, are moves that modify stats. Should a category be created for these moves? Something along the lines of "Category: Stat Changing Special Moves"? Roarmoocowz (talk) 22:36, 1 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The group is a bit too short to need a category, I think. Berrenta (talk) 15:27, 2 September 2014 (EDT)

Well, you could make a trivia about it. --Bob8644 (talk) 19:12, 5 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, sounds like a better idea. We could add that point on those other two specials as well. The group size is small enough. Berrenta (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2014 (EDT)

"Literal translations" are not necessary.
The best translations have already been made and are used as their official English names, and therefore the "literal" translations are not necessary. I thought that reasoning would be enough, but for some it apparently isn't, so let me go through them all one by one. As 斬 is the only one of these five that cannot be seen as a direct translation, I suggest we simply show that by an asterisk.
 * 疾 - Why "rapidly" has been written here is beyond me. This character is not an adverb anymore than it is an adjective. For most kanji, it's best to think of them as meanings rather than specific words, as they typically cannot be used alone (i.e. they are used in combinations to form actual words). In this case, you could say that it means "going fast". That is the same as "speed" (the official English name).
 * 翔 - Firstly, know that in Japanese, "jump" and "fly" are both covered by the word とぶ. とぶ　can be written in at least three ways: 飛ぶ, 跳ぶ and 翔ぶ. It is true that the third is used more often to mean "soar" than "jump", so why is it used in this case? Because it's more stylish. However, it still means "jump" (the official English name).
 * 撃 - For some reason, the supposed literal translation that someone wrote is "strike/attack". However, this kanji is used in several words generally suggesting an "impact". It does not mean "attack" or "strike" any more than it means "smash" (the official English name).
 * 盾 - As has been already accepted, there's only really one English word that can be used here: "shield" (the official English name).
 * 斬 - This kanji is a basically a stylish way to write 切, and can mean "cut", "slice", or even "kill" if you're watching a samurai movie. The English word "buster" can mean "burst", but is not a well-defined word. It seems to have become popular in games/anime/whatever as exemplified by Cloud's "buster sword".
 * The speed kanji is normally indeed not an adverb, but it's mainly tangorin's translation; one would think more about either "rapid" or "rapidness" (the latter think Anji Mito's Shitsu). The jump kanji normally applies much more to "soaring" or "flight" in general. Attack/strike is a bit more general for the smash kanji during my time of seeing translations of movesets with the kanji 撃, though for "attack's" case the kanji is also merged in the term "kougeki" (攻撃). Shield's kanji is already self-explanatory. 斬 is basically indeed a more stylish way to write 切, but from the Chinese side of things, it also means to "butcher" or "slay". Slash is often more common if you look at it in a "fighting game moveset in Japanese" viewpoint. --SneaselSawashiro (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2016 (EDT)

Name inconsistencies
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shulk's voice acting in Japanese gives the Monado Arts another set of names, yes? Even with my limited knowledge, I'm pretty sure he calls out はたく (hataku, strike) for Buster, as opposed to zan (reading of the kanji) or basuta (name in PotD). Should we note these names as well? (You can check against his Japanese trailer for the others.) Miles ( talk)   17:12, 5 January 2015 (EST)
 * Something indeed seems to be up here. I'm currently trying to find some Japanese Xenoblade/SSB4 footage to compare names (in case the video uses one-off terms) but have yet to get anywhere useful. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Metroid 18:49, 5 January 2015 (EST)
 * To reply to this out of date topic, he mainly speaks out phrases for the activations instead of their names. Jump is "tobu!", Speed is "hashiru!", Shield is "mamoru!", Buster is "tataku!" and Smash is "buttobasu!" --SneaselSawashiro (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2016 (EDT)

Defence
It's stated that the Shield art increases his defence. This ought to be cleared up, as there is no defence stat in the game. What does it mean? – Smiddle 09:37, 13 March 2015 (EDT)
 * It's not implying that there is a defense stat in the game; rather, it's saying it increases his ability to survive, in a sense. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] Aidan the  Aura Master  09:46, 13 March 2015 (EDT)
 * There is a defence stat, actually (it's just zero for everyone by default). I'm not sure if the Monado Arts work like that, but what the table is saying is that Shulk takes less damage in Shield mode. Presumably, someone didn't want to put a green plus next to "damage taken", and I agree with that; the table layout seems less than ideal at the moment. There must be a better way to do it. Zyrac (talk) 10:05, 13 March 2015 (EDT)
 * It already says a minus next to damage taken. I'm changing it to "damage reduction". Either way, associating good and bad with a plus/minus (implying an increase/decrease) seems very unfounded. – Smiddle 04:03, 14 March 2015 (EDT)
 * For clarity: the chart can never be consistent unless we decide whether to indicate an increase/decrease, or a buff/nerf. The way it is now is very confusing. – Smiddle 04:05, 14 March 2015 (EDT)

I had renamed what was previously listed as weight, but I can't use the term "knockback resistance" because that also refers to super armor. What would be a better alternative for a name? LimitCrown (talk) 04:15, 14 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Knockback resistance works. When talking about super armour, complete knockback resistance is implied. Here it's partial knockback resistance, which is rightfully called knockback resistance. Either way, "damage taken" is not a good term to use. If there's a plus sign next to damage taken, does it mean that more damage is taken, or that the stat is buffed (i.e. less damage taken)? The information isn't presented in a good way. – Smiddle 06:11, 14 March 2015 (EDT)

Split
Neutral leaning towards support. The tech has a fairly niche use, but is well-known and likely has enough information for a page. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 12:34, 13 September 2016 (EDT)

Weak oppose. I don't feel it's a necessary split due to the technique being directly related to this move, and the page not being bloated. Is there any standard for handling these cases, anyway? --Menshay (talk) 16:26, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
 * There are plenty of cases of techniques specific to a certain move getting their own page, such as waveshine or edge-canceled eggs. Miles ( talk)   16:39, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
 * oppose It lacks notability Serpent  SKSigHalloween.png  King  18:21, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
 * opposed. Same grounds as ^ Destructodon (talk) 18:40, 13 September 2016 (EDT)
 * Oppose per Serpent. Disaster Flare  DisasterFlareHalloweenSigImage.png  (talk)  23:35, 13 September 2016 (EDT)

Separate page for MALLC?
Should we create a separate page for MALLC? It's a rather long section, and because it is an advanced technique it might be better to move it to a different page so that someone could potentially elaborate on frame data and whatnot. I'm interested to see if this is a possibility. Thevictorystar (talk) 18:33, 27 December 2016 (EST)

Speed Art and Traction

 * I'm noticing that the article states that the Speed Monado Art decreases Shulk's traction, but the game files say otherwise. Based on what I'm seeing, Speed actually increases Shulk's traction by 1.5x. 67.242.7.137 11:35, 31 December 2016 (EST)

Freeze frames explanation
This is not merely a result of the higher or lower sustained damage, as can be told by two observations. Firstly, Shulk will be in SHS for a different amount of time than the attacker, despite the fact that a simple damage increase substituted into the formula would not have this affect. Secondly, the smash art also affects the amount of freeze frames Shulk sustains, even though it has no effect on sustained damage (which is what normally determines freeze frames). Alex Parpotta the  flying lobster!  07:05, 8 July 2017 (EDT)


 * As the one who keeps this page in check, could you simplify that explanation? Because I haven't seen the term "Sustained Damage" anywhere else, and do not understand what you are trying to explain. Do you mean hitstun? Archrelico (talk) 12:39, 8 July 2017 (EDT)

Decisive Monado Arts in SSB4
Decisive Monado Arts, one of the move's customizations in 4, amplifies positive effects or each Art but not negative effects. But, is it known for every effect of each Art whether it's considered positive or negative for Decisive Monado Arts? Also, the amplifiers of the Art effects from the customizations are missing. ThighFish (talk) 14:21, September 16, 2020 (EDT)ThighFish

Vagueness of exact game in Kirby's Copy Ability part
In the 'Technical Data' section under the subheading 'Kirby's Copy Ability', it mentions the move's effects on Kirby's gameplay: 'Speed also gives Kirby the longest perfect pivot in the game. Conversely, both Speed and Shield make Kirby's jumps the most ineffective in the game, and Smash makes him the lightest fighter in the game.' But the exact game(s) the infomation's referring isn't given. So it needs to be specified. Thanks --Smashreader (talk) 16:20, March 10, 2021 (EST)

All-Out Attack
So I just learned that All-Out Attack immediately deactivates whatever Monado Art is active when Shulk is hit by the initial strike. The source of this knowledge comes from this video, but I also tested it myself just now. I feel this is important information that should be shown either on this page or on the page for the Final Smash itself. 8.42.86.243 11:10, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
 * Feel free to add it yourself, the page isn’t protected. Black Vulpine  of the 🦊Furry Nation🐺.  Furries make the internets go! :3  16:53, March 15, 2021 (EDT)

The Monado Arts tech pages are a bit much, can we merge them?
Back in March of this year, Omega Tyrant rightfully brought up the unnecessary Crownerang tech pages, see here. Two solutions were brought up; a Crownerang/Techniques page, or merging them all to the page itself. I agree with much of the arguments presented and have since looked into the idea of merging other stranded tech pages with their respective special moves, as it does certainly make it a bit difficult to navigate.

I see the same issue Crownerang had when looking at Monado Arts tech, and it's arguably worse. There are multiple complex acronyms some of these use — some of which are cited without prior unabbreviation — which makes it hard for the uninitiated to read without having multiple tabs up. In other words, the issue here is that the information is quite scattered and difficult to follow, much like the problems the Crownerang techniques had. Some pages don't even have the full list of techniques in "see also", and some like Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel imply the need for other techniques, it's all very difficult to follow. Unifying these with more precise explanations would make everything much easier to work with.

So, the proposal here is essentially "merge the tech pages, give them all a cleanup while you're at it".

Applicable pages include the following; and maybe one that I missed...
 * Dial Storage - this one is part of Monado Arts's mechanics to some degree, and plays into a lot of the other techniques, so this one should be merged at minimum.
 * MonaDACUS
 * Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel
 * Monado Art Intangible Landing
 * Monado Art Buffered Deactivation
 * Monado Art Ledge Snap
 * Monado Art Run Cancel

While some of these are split across games, that would imply the need for page structure akin to Whirling Fortress and Dolphin Slash rather than not going through with this. These pages could use with a lot of touching up in general so it's a good opportunity to work on that. Anyway, thanks for hearing me out, this has been bothering me for a while. -- Plague  von Karma  04:30, December 7, 2021 (EST)