Talk:Super Smash Bros. 4/Archive 4

"#Characters"
For "veteran characters" Capatain Falcon was confirmed. For new characters, Lucina was also confirmed.

WanderIsAwesome2001 (talk) 22:39, 15 July 2014 (EDT) WanderIsAwesome2001
 * Those characters are already shown in the table. Miles ( talk)   22:43, 15 July 2014 (EDT)

Release Date
Release date in Germany is October 2nd in stores (October 3rd in e-Shop). (Source: ) Ar4093 (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2014 (EDT)

Did the Wii U version really come out Summer 2014 in Australia? 73.41.152.18 20:31, 19 September 2014 (EDT)
 * You probably shouldn't have bumped this old section. But yes, it will be coming out in Australian summer - which is American/European winter, of course. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Cloronic 20:33, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

Some Surprises
Super Smash Bros' Facebook Page stated this, and I quote, "Super Smash Bros. will be at San Diego Comic-Con in full force! Join us for the first-ever Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS tournament, tips and tricks live-streamed straight from the show floor and even a few special surprises. http://spr.ly/6183lYOc." This is worth noting. 72.105.3.199 20:13, 18 July 2014 (EDT)


 * This isn't worth noting on this page. If the 3DS tournament is notable enough, we may make a separate page about it, but nothing about this news relates to information about the game itself. Lightning Blue 405MS.png 22:59, 18 July 2014 (EDT)

Moving
Should I move this page to Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U? Awesomelink234 (talk) 10:46, 19 July 2014 (EDT)
 * No. See here as to why. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 10:53, 19 July 2014 (EDT)
 * Ok. Awesomelink234 (talk) 10:55, 19 July 2014 (EDT)
 * We also already got two separate articles for both game versions: Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. D  o  t  s  (talk) Link OoT Dots.PNG The Barrel roll 10:56, 19 July 2014 (EDT)
 * I knew that already. Awesomelink234 (talk) 11:01, 19 July 2014 (EDT)

Splash Screens?
We decided on a different topic not to use the splash screens/introductions, yet they've somehow made there way to this page. What did I miss, and should they be removed for the reasons debated earlier? ...a new Nuttais approaching... 07:29, 23 July 2014 (EDT)
 * A gallery can have as many images as it wants; as long as they're relevant to the subject, there's no problem with it. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Emissary 08:58, 23 July 2014 (EDT)
 * ah, so we just decided against replacing them. Mkay. ...a new Nutta[[File:Nutta's Mallo sig.png]]is approaching... 15:47, 24 July 2014 (EDT)

Uncertain veterans.
With Meta-Knight's announcement, there are now 12 characters from Brawl that have not been confirmed to return in SSB4.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.102.158.13 (talk • contribs) 05:53, 15 August 2014 EDT

So? Why are you posting this on the talk page? And why didn't you sign? SeanWheeler (talk) 11:11, 15 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Uh, I don't think he/she would have found that comment very helpful. You could've linked the IP to our talk page policy and told him to sign his comments with ~ after every post. I don't think he broke any rules on the notice itself, but he did violate the talk page policy.  Qw er ty (t al k)  13:34, 15 August 2014 (EDT)

--130.102.158.19 20:29, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

Title
I don't see why it's necessary to keep the unofficial name for this article when there is an official name, which Super Mario Wiki uses for it. I am thinking we should change the name of this article to "Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U" since that is the official name of the game. --NintendoNinjaCarson (talk) 13:53, 22 August 2014 (EDT)
 * We already have individual pages for the two separate versions and most people call them (when referring to them as a whole) Super Smash Bros. 4 Laikue (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2014 (EDT)

ESRB Leak?
I understand that with video evidence, information can be as claimed as legitimate, but I don't think we should list Shulk, Bowser Jr., Ganondorf and Brawl Yoshi's Island on this page and others unless the info was explicitly confirmed by Sakurai or his team. This page is not meant for speculation, it is meant for official information, and thus Shulk, Ganondorf, Bowser Jr. and Brawl Yoshi's Island should be removed from this and other similar pages. By the way, I am new here, so forgive me if I missed something I should know about as as I simply don't know all the rules here. ZXLucario (talk) 15:28, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * It was to address exactly this kind of situation that NEWGAME was written and agreed upon. Miles ( talk)   15:34, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * I kind of get it now, but since NOA just took down the videos, it could mean 1 of 2 things, 1. The info is real and Nintendo is trying to hide it or 2. Since this is the first time Nintendo took down a leak, it could mean that the leaks aggravated Nintendo and they were sending a message telling people to stop. Most likely the 1st option, but now that we no longer have video proof, should Shulk, Ganon, Jr. and YS still be listed? ZXLucario (talk) 15:59, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm sure there are backups out there. It's not like the videos ceased to exist. Miles ( talk)   16:02, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * But is it a real video? What if it's some Brawl hack? Nintendo took it down before I could see the video. But maybe they could have made a texture hack to Ganondorf to make him look hd? And added Bowser Jr. and Shulk. I think we need to confirm that this is legit. Bootlegs aren't trustworthy. In fact Sakurai can even drop the characters out of the roster to prove a point. I think videos that should be real proof is authorized demos such as from E3 and Gamescon, and Sakurai's footage. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Okay, first of all, the 3DS isn't HD. Second, I've seen zero evidence of a Brawl hack to add a character like Shulk with the distinct moves seen in the video plus change the results screen transition and so on. Third, and as I stated above, this is why SW:NEWGAME was written. Video is orders of magnitude harder to fake than images. Fourth, Nintendo wouldn't take down a Brawl hack video. Miles ( talk)   16:28, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Quickly take a look at this before it gets taken down as well. S c r 7 Scr7 sig.png(talk · contribs) 16:31, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Okay, now it's more believable, now that I saw video footage. Oh, and when I said HD, thought it might be Wii U footage. And by the way, since Sakurai decided to drop the story for leaking on YouTube, what if he decides to make last minute changes to the roster? I know he decided on the roster at the beginning of development, but what if he decides to scrap Shulk to make sure no one leaks his stuff again? There are consequences for someone in development spoilering stuff. Tyler Nelson blabbed that he would dance in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Remember that scene in the movie? No? Because George Lucas cut it out as punishment! Knowing how much Sakurai trolls the fanbase, I imagine he must be really mad now, and now some of the illegally leaked characters and stages could be cut and he could even rush in some last minute characters that weren't on the original roster. Good job ESRB, you LITERALLY changed the game for us! SeanWheeler (talk) 16:54, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Considering Sakurai has stressed that every change results in a massive amount of additional required testing and debug, I find it highly improbable that any changes of note are going to be made in the last three weeks before the game comes out (in Japan). Miles ( talk)   16:56, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * You ventured from reasonable talk page content to hyper-paranoia and speculation that belongs on a forum. Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:57, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Unless we get incontrovertible evidence that supports the leak (assuming it's not just an elaborate hoax), I say we cut it out. This is a wiki for facts, and we can't just throw around a rumor just because it has a video to back it up- they may be harder to fake, but it can be done with enough time and determination. My theory is that the since the ESRB staff never even PLAYS the games and is only given footage video clips, either the source is lying about how he got it or the leak itself is a fake. Neither of those does much to inspire trust in the information gleaned from it. --66.249.83.56 17:02, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * I think it's widely understood the video consists of clips from the ESRB footage, not an actual copy of the game. Miles ( talk)   17:15, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * And those clips never leave ESRB since their staffers must sign NDAs or be fined for thousands of dollars. I get the feeling that you're falling for an unusually well-made hoax, but we won't know for sure unless additional evidence from a reliable third party confirms or denies the leaks- preferably Sakurai himself. For now, I suggest erring on the side of caution- they can always be re-added if it turns out they were real, and if they're fake the wiki will lose quite a bit of credibility. --66.249.83.56 17:27, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, those videos are convincing, and Nintendo did block some of them. And it should be more simple to remove characters than to add new ones. And considering Sonic was added very late in Brawl's development but we still had a decent amount of Sega content, someone can also be added at the last second and the game can be delayed. Or it could be some crazily elaborate hoax, although it did get some recent details like Meta Knight's pose right. I wouldn't want to believe the Duck Hunt dog to be playable. What could he do in Smash? Makes more sense as an Assist Trophy. I'm totally expecting tomorrow's pic of the day to disprove the leak. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * The Duck Hunt dog was discovered to be a fan-made render based on an existing one found on DeviantArt. If that doesn't shed doubt on the video, I don't know what will. And how do we know Nintendo was the one removing them? The leaker could have easily taken them down himself to make the videos seem more legitimate. Most likely, it's a fairly coordinated group with at least one person capable of creating their own character renders. Whatever the case, it's naive to presume every single video has to be real just because it's clear and unambiguous. --66.249.83.56 17:45, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Well the dog wasn't in the video. But the notice on the removed videos said Nintendo, but then again, someone can impersonate an Nintendo employee. But why would Nintendo use a DeviantArt Duck Hunt artwork? I doubt they would steal fanart. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:53, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

(Reset indent) I also don't think Nintendo would use fanart without permission from the artist. That would be bad business practice, and it could result in a lawsuit if the artist learns about the use of their artwork used without consent.

Either way, even I feel we should be on the safe side as far as the leak is concerned. To be safe, for Shulk, Ganondorf, and Bowser Jr., we should replace "confirmed" to "rumored" and make them separate from the officially confirmed fighters in the templates to prevent confusion. Berrenta (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Is it okay if i add the renders to our unconfirmed characters as a placeholder Thesupernintendokid (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2014 (EDT)


 * Not just separate them, delete them! We should wait for them to be officially confirmed before creating Smash 4 profiles. Smash Wiki isn't speculative. So we can't have rumored characters, even if they have some unauthorized video to back them up. Bulbapedia doesn't have Volcana and Hoopa because they weren't confirmed even though they've been leaked. Let's only cover the confirmed characters. Bootlegs don't confirm. It may be convincing, but not confirmed. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:24, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Removing them could work too. May be a better idea, as it saves space. Berrenta (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * If you want to dispute the handling of this wiki's policy on new game coverage, the talkpage of SW:NEWGAME would be a more appropriate venue to do so. Be aware that you will need strong consensus from the community to change this policy. Miles ( talk)   18:26, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Anyone else in support of deletion? Editconflict: Oh, I guess this should go to Newgame.SeanWheeler (talk) 18:28, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * New section on Newgame's talk page has been added. Let the debate begin.--66.249.83.56 18:45, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * sorry for putting the pictures "wrongly" you guys can do it here are the pictures

http://i.imgur.com/I4CBOfR.png http://i.imgur.com/Ciz5NUV.png http://i.imgur.com/WOUt4Et.png Thesupernintendokid ( talk) 18:34, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

There is one major thing about these leaks that I don't understand. If the leaked roster is legit, where is the spot for the Mii Fighters? Chuck Norris    19:12, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * The Miis are apparently available in a special mode.
 * This is a tad unrelated, but I think Wolf, Lucas, the Ice Climbers, and Snake are unlockable characters, because if the leaker didn't unlock everything, how the hell would he know that those characters were cut?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:20, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * I think that is a logical theory. It seems odd that Sakurai would cut so many characters for seemingly no reason. Chuck  Norris  24.png  19:25, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * It's highly plausible that even if the screenshots that go with the videos are legitimate, the empty space at the bottom of the screen represents characters not yet unlocked, which could explain some or all of the missing veterans. Nevertheless, we're only covering the video-confirmed content only at the moment. Miles ( talk)   19:39, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Um...I didn't know I could create a war here, sorry guys...ZXLucario (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * It's not your fault personally or anything. It's just a controversial subject. That's why a policy was created to address it. Miles ( talk)   19:45, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * well i tried so many times buti cant doit properly, so if anyone else wants to put the pictures on, its fine by me

Thesupernintendokid (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Assuming if the three are confirmed, I think the template on the Smash 4 page should have at least a placeholder image for Ganondorf, Bowser Jr, and Shulk? Cherrim 98  Talk   20:02, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Exactly what i ment cherrim, the pictures are right there for use

Thesupernintendokid (talk) 20:06, 25 August 2014 (EDT) The wiki should have these because it looks like it's plain. Cherrim 98  Talk   21:54, 25 August 2014 (EDT)
 * THEY. ARE. NOT. CONFIRMED. Stop treating a leak as being equal to official material- put them in an "unconfirmed" section, if you absolutely must have them on the page. --108.31.78.204 18:24, 26 August 2014 (EDT)

The leak is not from an official source and has not been confirmed. The videos are all low-quality and are not proof in any way. Only post information that has been officially confirmed by Nintendo. New game procedure. DryKirby64 (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2014 (EDT)
 * If you want to argue for this, go here and read the recent debate. Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 23:34, 26 August 2014 (EDT)

Further confirmation of the leak. Can you naysayers just please stop denying it? Lasifer 03:12, 27 August 2014 (EDT)
 * So the pics of the day are matching up to the leaks. Well, I still hope that it wasn't a complete roster and that the leaker still had a couple more characters to unlock like Mewtwo. SeanWheeler (talk) 09:23, 27 August 2014 (EDT)

Pretty sure this confirms the stage leak from leaker 2. It gives us new never before seen pics of N's Castle, details on how it might work (looks like Spear Pillar clone) and better pics to use on the wiki. ZXLucario (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2014 (EDT)

Shulk's image on the old leak screenshots was confirmed today to be his official image. At this point, is there really any debate that the leaks are 100% accurate? Shouldn't we just go ahead and add everyone confirmed by the leak to this page by now? People like Duck Hunt Dog, Dr. Mario, etc. I really can't bring myself to say that this leak is fake after seeing Shulk's official render today. --(The preceding signed comment was made by Ghabulous Ghoti) 19:36, 29 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Only the ones where we have gameplay footage. Dr. Mario and the dog don't have enough to confirm them yet, since they were only shown on the menu.--66.249.83.56 21:05, 29 August 2014 (EDT)

I have only one comment: it seems odd to only have some of the leaked characters, when those same leaks give us the character select screen. Saying certain characters are confirmed from that and others are not, is just silly. Either only officially confirmed characters should be put on the page, or all the characters from the leaked character select screen should be put on the page, but not this weird mix. I realize that it doesn't make much of a difference because in less than 2 weeks people in Japan will have the game, and then we'll have to add the complete leaked roster anyway (and the confirmation of Shulk was the final nail in the leak is real coffin, anyone who still thinks the character select screen is not real is just in denial). 75.4.142.34 10:45, 1 September 2014 (EDT)
 * At the moment, the only thing left we're still citing strictly from the leak is Bowser Jr., since Shulk was shown officially and Ganondorf appeared in Friday's trailer by mistake. At this point, given that we're under two weeks away from seeing the whole roster via the Japanese release, I don't see a need to rush to include other information from the leak. We'll just cover it once Miiverse screenshots and such start appearing. Miles ( talk)   10:49, 1 September 2014 (EDT)

I think we should make pages for them just in case, I mean, I have to agree with some people on this aspect, true, we didn't see the rest in battle gameplay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover them. But in the end, we may have to wait to get more footage of Dr. Mario etc.

11:15, 1 September 2014 (EDT) Tom13
 * A mention on their official pages, maybe. Just like "Dr. Mario was shown in leaked screenshots for Super Smash Bros. 4. However, there is no strict proof." Or something more professional, I'm bad with wording. ...a new Nutta[[File:Nutta's Mallo sig.png]]is approaching... 11:25, 1 September 2014 (EDT)
 * If we were further from release, I'd say that would be worth considering. However, we're only like a week and a half away from the Japanese release. We'll be getting a deluge of information with much more complete proof very soon. We can afford to wait on the rest of the leaked info until then. Miles ( talk)   11:29, 1 September 2014 (EDT)

A mention would work for now, and yes, perhaps we need more information to make a page. Tom13 (talk) 11:31, 1 September 2014 (EDT)

This has little to do with any current topics but I'd like to point out that Sakurai said that swimming was disabled for the demo, so swimming should still be in the game. Just pointed that out because the article said swimming is removed. :/ --67.1.208.112 00:15, 5 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Can you provide a source for that claim? Miles ( talk)   00:19, 5 September 2014 (EDT)

Just thought I'd mention you guys are still missing ROB in the veteran section. Otherwise it looks good 75.63.61.83 12:58, 11 September 2014 (EDT)

Final Game Info
A user on smashboards was giving us info on the game for a few hours, here are links to the info (to be clear, there is no outset island tlink or dry bowser and daisy is a pallete swap rather than skin) http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2fluu0/smashboardszipzos_feedback_on_the_latest_demo/ http://smashboards.com/threads/sorry-for-crashing-smashboards-im-zipzo-today-i-played-the-release-build-of-smash-4-ama.366574/page-3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZXLucario (talk • contribs) 10:40, September 6, 2014 (CDT)


 * Found some of the same info on Neogaf, but there is also some high quality pictures of the AKB48 girl Group Miifighters. Ixbran (talk) 22:12, 6 September 2014 (EDT)

All costumes/recolors for the currently revealed cast
Famitsu recently had a 100 page article for SSB4-3DS that features scans and info on all the characters currently revealed for the game, this includes screen shots of them all in their alt costumes. I figured you guys would wanna have access to these for the sake of getting them uploaded to the wiki. Ixbran (talk) 15:13, 10 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Nice find, but those images are a bit small. I'm not asking that you find larger ones, but I think it'd be better for us to list and describe the palette swaps and provide the NintendoEverything page as a source.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  15:55, 10 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah they're small, but I'd say we should have them over the images that are currently on the Palette swap (SSB4) page, especially since they are available in one individual image. S c r 7 Scr7 sig.png(talk · contribs) 15:57, 10 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Leave the images that are already on Palette swap (SSB4) as they are, but add these in addition to them. Miles ( talk)   16:02, 10 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Someone on tumblr was able to get fairly high quality scans of the costume images and put them together in a single post. images in question, I think these are high quality enough for the sake of the wiki, at least until we can get larger versions. Better to go with these rather than from the ones on nintendo everything. Ixbran (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2014 (EDT)

Should we denote unlockable characters in bold, like in past games' articles?
The title says it all. Should we denote them (in the Smash 4 character table on the main article, the 3DS article, and the Wii U article) in bold? It's up to you guys. Thanks. =P Flight (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2014 (EDT)

Mii Fighter is also unlockable
The Mii Fighter isn't in bold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.92.255.223 (talk • contribs) 9:26 16 September 2014 (EDT)
 * No, they are not. :P (talk) PikaSamusSig.png 09:35, 16 September 2014 (EDT)

Mariowiki vs Smashwiki
Just saying, but MarioWiki has a better Smash 4 page than the Smash page! WHAT EVEN. THE MARIOWIKI SMASH 4 PAGE IS BETTER THAN THE SMASH 4 PAGE ON THE SMASH WIKI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.174.157 (talk • contribs) 08:36, 18 September 2014 (EDT)
 * It's not "better" just because it has a whole bunch of stuff on it that we have spread across multiple pages. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The SMASH-GINEER 10:12, 18 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yes, it is better because of the reason you just provided (how ironic that you provided a reason against yourself). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.69.12.166 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 28 September 2014
 * What he's trying to say is that Smashwiki has more information, but as Mariowiki doesn't have many Smash pages, people on MarioWiki have to condense the info to a few pages, making them bigger. Smashwiki, on the other hand, has all of the info split across many more pages, effectively making the pages smaller. And also, remember to sign your comments by putting four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your post.  Qw er ty (t al k)  23:27, 28 September 2014 (EDT)

Stages
If we have the information, couldn't we put the stage names in bold if they're unlockable just like the characters? It's just a thought. SmashBros (talk) 12:39, 21 September 2014 (EDT) Honestly, I'm not entirely sure if there ARE unlockable stages in the first place... 31.48.26.98 03:26, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
 * But what about Magnicant and Pac-Maze? Aren't those unlockable stages since they weren't viewable in the demo? SmashBros (talk) 10:41, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Mah, nevermind. Seems as if my idea was put in. SmashBros (talk) 18:38, 1 October 2014 (EDT)

Return of the results screen transition animations?
I'm not sure where in this article we could put it, but is it significant enough to note that the animations that transition from the end of the match to the results screen are in this game for the first time since the original? They're not highlighted in these videos, but you can see all of them. http://youtu.be/hGdOGAs-KSI http://youtu.be/lLKudTvW6x0 Nas 160  Let's go Pens! 17:10, 21 September 2014 (EDT)

Citation Needed - DLC
The DLC section mentions that Sakurai didn't plan on DLC during the developing of the game, with a proper source.

However, the second statement says that Sakurai might take DLC into consideration after the development, and "Citation Needed" had been added.

This information is included in the source previously provided.

"That said, once finished, it's the type of thing we could take into consideration"

Liggliluff (talk) 19:00, 22 September 2014 (EDT)

3DS Stage Chart Layout?
Was wondering whether we could make the 3DS stage chart be 5 rows 7 columns to match up the number of columns with the Wii U stage chart and the character chart. Plus, I mapped it out, and the way it would be configured, there wouldn't be any series breaks, and with the empty space in the middle of the bottom row, the third-party stages would be grouped together on one side. What do you guys think? Kenniky (talk) 20:43, 23 September 2014 (EDT)

Minor Typo
Currently in the Trivia section, it claims that Peach's down special "apears" to still be random. This spelling error should be fixed to improve accuracy. Serensetti (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Developer in infobox
Could someone change Namco Bandai to Bandai Namco? That's what it's listed as in the game's copyright and on this site. --GastonRabbit (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I have edit privileges now, so never mind. --GastonRabbit (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Someone managed to find good renders of all the characters.
Here are all the renders. Notice how they all have nice shadows.

Here's where I found them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.146.75.243 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * That's not bad but they have two issues - they're not transparent like the ones we currently have, and one of the Robin ones is missing (because they accidentally have a duplicate instead). I don't personally think we need them. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Riotous 11:51, 5 October 2014 (EDT)