Talk:Lucina (SSBU)

Marth vs Lucina.
There are no differences in the basic properties of Lucina's normals and specials, with the exception of the tipper mechanic. This goes for Chrom vs Roy too (except for up special). Lucina's attacks, in general, are 12% more effective than Marth's sourspots, and 25% less effective than Marth's sweetspots. In general, Marth has a higher total damage output because of this. Lucina's consistency is certainly not without merit. Lucina's up tilt actually emulates Marth's move in terms of timing. The same strats can be used with both fighters, since their framedata and attributes are identical. Also, can we stop with the "More Unique Echo Fighter" thing? --Tuffingtons (talk) 15:58, 18 January 2019 (EST)
 * It is impossible to make a statement about whose damage is higher without accounting for rates of successful tipping with actual evidence, which you do not have. Please refrain from edit warring. – Emmett  16:17, 18 January 2019 (EST)

Hello memoryman3. You’re being very disruptive on this page. First of all, as experience as a Lucina main, I can tell you with certainty that she and Marth can’t play the same way. While definitely not to the extent Chrom and Ken are, she is still unique for an echo fighter. Secondly, it is fairly notable that she is he only echo fighter who has a different screen KO, and it’s important to go into detail about how he lack of a tipper affects them (such as not being able to secure KOs). Thirdly, Lucina’s up tilt does not emulate Marth’s tipper because marth’s tipper also deals more knockback. Lucina’s ting-based sweetspot deals more damage, but also less knockback. So knock it off memeoryman3. 99.203.10.238 16:50, 18 January 2019 (EST)

Since I'm the one that reverted your last edit, let's go over some things: She was slightly recloned from her previous appearance in SSB4, as she is no longer shorter than Marth and her up tilt will now move her forward slightly. her up tilt has a unique sweetspot based on how late into the swing the opponent is hit. ''While Lucina and Marth have identical attacks, mobility attributes and frame data, the lack of a tipper spreads across Lucina's entire moveset, causing her to be generally agreed to be one of the more unique Echo Fighters, alongside Chrom and Ken. As such, these three are expected to be placed separately fron their counterparts on the tier list.'' Why were any of these removed? Why were these moved out of her Specials section?

The problem isn't the information you added, it's the information you removed and changed around. If you're removing information, please actually provide a source as to why, not just stating non-informative stuff like "Shield Breaker is not a function change." Site references, datamining, actual evidence to your claims would help keep the information as it is.

PS. No confirmation this is Memoryman3 (though you are acting very much like him), so enough with the accusations 99.203.10.238. If he is, then he'll be banned when evidence to that comes up. Alex95 (talk) 16:56, 18 January 2019 (EST)

Well, if we look at the other echo fighter changes, aesthetic changes are not in the Special Moves section because they do not affect functionality of the character in any tangible way. And yes, we have data that Lucina's attacks are actually closer to Marth's sourspots than sweetspots. You are correct on the up-tilt change. Also, many official sources of information, top players on Smashcords, framedata analysis, and professional players such as ZeRo recommend you play Lucina like Marth due to the traits she shares (framedata, range, speed etc.) Echo Fighters are also classed as sharing all the main attributes with their base, and datamining proves this. --Tuffingtons (talk) 05:52, 19 January 2019 (EST)
 * I’m going to have to call your bluff here. MKLeo, one of the best Marth players in Smash 4, is literally saying that Lucina is better because Marth can only space. Lucina can both space and play aggressively, though her spacing is vastly inferior to Marth’s. The “closer to Marth’s sourspots than sweetspots” thing is probably valid, but your disruptive edits that are removing valid information are making you very suspectible. You’re also wrong about the whole “echoes share all attributes” thing. That was said by Bill Treiner on E3 day when Gamexplain was interviewing him. That information was valid at the time, but then Ken came along. Disproving your case further, Dr. Mario’s attributes actually are identical under the hood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.181.102.188 (talk • contribs) 12:38, January 19, 2019

On your point on aesthetic changes that aren't in the "Aesthetics" section, this piece of trivia on Ken's difference page, "Hadoken contains an image of Ken's hands, as it does in the original Street Fighter II," is actually located in his Specials section rather than Aesthetics. Same thing for Dark Pit and his electric affect during Electroshock Arm. The point of the Aesthetics section for echoes is to note differences in things such as victory animations and idle animations, not move properties. SugarCookie420 (talk) 13:50, 19 January 2019 (EST)

Marth vs Lucina section
Can somebody copy-paste some of the info from here?: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Forum:Lucina_vs._Marth

Since Chrom’s page puts his differences under his attributes section, I feel like the differences should be detailed a little bit more using these. I unfortunately can’t add this in because I’m not autoconfirmed yet. Lou Cena (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2019 (EST)

Lucina’s Forward smash and Fair were nerfed in 3.1 but Marth’s were untouched. Should we count that as a difference?
Should we count those as differences from Marth? I don’t think it’s a side effect of Lucina not having a tipper like Marth. Lou Cena (talk) 17:13, June 1, 2019 (EDT)

.
Just wanted to say that I never added any personal bias PokemonJamal....Master(was that your name?)? I just generally saw whenever I played Marth o I would often get early kills whereas with Lucina I didn’t get any MetaKnightX6 (talk) 12:00, July 7, 2021 (EDT)
 * "I just generally saw whenever I played Marth o I would often get early kills whereas with Lucina I didn’t get any"


 * I'm going to nip this here, unless you are actually a high level competitive player, do not be using any personal experience as any argument for your edits here. Maybe it's true Marth does kill on average earlier, I'm of the opinion that Marth and the impact of his tippers do get severely underrated by people, but unless you can show something convincing otherwise, you are not in a position to be changing stuff on wiki based on your own supposed personal experience. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:31, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

Hey
I checked Lucinas fsmash and the knockback it gives compared to others is not very high, and killing at 60% puts It ever so slightly on the weaker end. This is not bias this is facts. (In general I am good with the different standards of strengths for different moves. With fsmash I say around 50% or lower is slightly on the stronger end. MetaKnightX6 (talk) 12:04, July 7, 2021 (EDT)
 * Even if it's on the lower end for an fsmash, killing at 60% is still not remotely close to being a weak attack in general. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 12:23, July 7, 2021 (EDT)
 * Ooohhhhh so you were comparing it just to a general attack? That makes much more sense, I thought you were saying it dealt high knockback for an fsmash (which wasn’t true). MetaKnightX6 (talk) 12:56, July 7, 2021 (EDT)

Reference to Awakening?
I do not think the information is relevant but would that be fine to bring up how the choice of Lucina imprisoned in the Dark Realm?—to reference the fact she came from a fallen timeline where Grima killed Chrom and her mother died. The broken clockworks area where Lucina is gives a similar vibe to the opening of Awakening. Derekblue1  (talk)   06:28, April 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * Aside from that stretching into speculation, all echoes are in the Dark Realm aside from Dark Samus (who is in the Final Battle instead), including Chrom, so there's nothing noteworthy about Lucina being in the Dark Realm either. Omega   Tyrant  [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:00, April 30, 2023 (EDT)