Talk:Tier list/Archive 4

Falcon's Wrong Numerical Value
I'm actually surprised many people haven't noticed yet, but the list here is actually incorrect with the SBR Official Final Melee Tier List. Captain Falcon is tied with a numerical value of 8.00 with Jigglypuff. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199342 - x After Dawn x —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.183.210.117 (talk • contribs)

Double Tier
Shouldn't there be two tier lists, one for one on one tournaments and one for co-op tournaments? anyone agree? 20:14 10th of Februry 2009
 * A lot of people say that. The problem is that there are so many character  combinations for the tier list.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 19:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Bias
I don't mean to cause any trouble here, but after thouroughly reading this article, it appears that the editor has a biased opinion towards tiers. With such a debated subject, shouldn't you be a bit more neutral? ¿Roderigo? (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. They are quite real, as any Smash professional will tell you. How people interpret them and if they care are their own decisions, but their existence is hard to deny.  Miles ( talk)   02:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. I really don't mind either way; I just go with any character I want, regardless if they're the best or the worst. ¿Roderigo? (talk) 02:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Why can't everyone be like you? Every day we get tier-haters who go on a rant about how tiers ruin the fun of the game. You, on the other hand, get it -- play as whoever you want, because that's what makes the game fun. Miles ( talk)   03:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, what those people are doing is making a huge misunderstanding. They think that by making tiers that people are threatening some kind of "free choice" when it comes to characters. The truth is, it's the player with the controller, not the character. Once somebody learns a new trick with say, Mewtwo, Mewtwo may be number one some day. I'm not a big supporter of tiers myself, but I understnad that they do exist. ¿Roderigo? (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ^ person is smart. I like him already. --Sky (t · c · w) 19:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Split?
I have a bit of a feeling that this page should just cover what a tier list is and some of the other general things about it. Then we could have "Tier list (SSB)" and the like that could go into more detail on why that list has the order it does (from the SBR's reasoning). Any thoughts? Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * May you get into further detail as to what you want to do? Y462 (T • C • E ) 04:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as you can get SBR's reasoning, then it's worth considering. Giving reasoning to anything here is gonna start a war, though.  Also, does someone know the system SBR uses to make the tiers? Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 05:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tournament play, genius.  Blue Ninjakoopa Talk 18:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Matchups and Tournament records. - Hatake91 (talk) 22:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant how they weight everything, and their numbers system. I don't know if anyone knows that, but...   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 23:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Explanations
I think that the article should include a decent explanation on why the characters are in the tiers that they are in. For example, I don't know why Meta Knight and Snake are so high, and I think that the page should explain why general consensus says that Meta Knight is the best. Madara uchiha99 (talk), Kanji: うちは マダラ 九十九, Romaji: Uchiha madara kyū-jū-kyū 17:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * We have the links to the SBR threads. Most of the discussion and information is there.  We also put some of it for each character on their fighter pages.  There would just be too much information to make it work on this one page.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

WTF?
OMG 1: Ness and Lucas tied on SSBB OMG 2: What, Fox on SSBM isn't 10.0? It's 9.9!? Willneverbeapro (talk) 04:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Forums. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahh. Willneverbeapro (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

stupid
very stupid they are.....tr4qs
 * Forums please. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 23:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Tier List
New tier Japan list http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231731 Firewario (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Ca LOL!! Majorabrawl (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not the Japanese tier list, it's just your revision. Next time, take it to the forums plz.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  17:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I think Japan's smart enough to put Jigglypuff somewhere. Smoreking (T)  (c)  16:55, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Forums?
What forums, and where? Hyper Zergling (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are the links to the Brawl tier list thread and the Melee tier list thread. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 19:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Metagame
I agree to the statement about players using only top tiered characters; thus, enforcing the list. List like this are just based on tournaments and how players rank each character. I personally think that R.O.B. should be the top player even though i don't use him. This list is just a majority of player's opinions. PlasmaVice (talk) 03:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for discussion about the tier list page. If you want to discuss tiers in general, please click on one of the forum links at the top of the page. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 20:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

"The fifth argument, called the recursive argument, is invalid because it does not account for the large variation among professionals. At least for Melee, while the tiers were in place, professionals still played their best medium, and not always who was top tier. Some players are dedicated low tier professionals. Still, through all this, the clear majority of tournament victories in Melee went to Fox/Falco, Marth and Sheik. The recursive argument may in fact have some validity but its reach is insufficient to disprove the existence of tiers, it merely says that the existence of a tier list affects metagame, leaving unproved the follow up that characters are balanced and the tier list corrupts that balance. Indeed, to derive such an assumption from the argument would be a fallacy." Ripped from my treatise. Semicolon (talk) 03:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

What about the Jamaican tier list?
I heard a rumor that the Jamaicans had their own tier list...or maybe it was the Chechnyians? Or the Portugalians. Whoever. So it goes something like this:

... ... ... This part is long and boring. The bottom goes like this:
 * Squirtle
 * Charizard
 * Ganondorf
 * Sonic (personally I think he's too high)
 * Mario
 * Falco
 * King Dedede
 * Sheik
 * Luigi
 * ZSS

I also heard a rumor that there's a secret character in the game, but he's bottom tier. Of course, you never really can trust Jamaicans. 13375poolR (talk) 05:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WTF is that supposed to mean, "You can never really trust Jamaicans?" Racist turd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.145.18 (talk • contribs) 09:56, 8 July 2009
 * It was probably just a joke - a joke in extremely poor taste, and the sort of joke that's not really appropriate here, but a joke nonetheless. I would like to add that, no matter how righteous your anger was, your response to it was also inappropriate. In other news, that's one made up tier list... There's no way Ganondorf would be that high. He's got so many massive weaknesses that no one in their right mind would put him anywhere other than last. Sonic has no strong, reliable finishing moves. Mario's down tilt and his down special are both rubbish. Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon being that high is just laughable. King Dedede's clearly very good, no one would honestly put him that low. Sheik's strong and fast and has very good smashes, the same goes for ZSS, and Luigi got buffed from Melee so now he's better than Mario by a long way. This supposed tier list is the result of pure fabrication, nothing more. Also, the idea that there are still secret characters in Brawl that no one's discovered yet is simply ridiculous.  Penguin  of  Death   10:00, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I like Ganondorf and am happy to know that some others agree with me when I say he isn't bad, but Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon being on the top? Give me a break. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.31.164.94 (talk • contribs) 07:35, 6 June 2009

Ganondorf number three in Bob Marley country? SWEET. DRTJR (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Full protection
Looking through the history, I noticed several vandals, even with the semi-protection. A full protection seems to be necessary, and if there is any information to the article, it can be posted on the talk page and an admin can put it in if they feel it is necessary. Smoreking (T)  (c)  20:57, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Official tier list
And what about the Prima's tier list?

Prima official game guide
Majorabrawl (talk) 08:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Besides the fact that Prima is stupid and official tier list refers to the Smash Back Room, that is their tier list. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Marth is severely overrated. And Prima is retarded.--Lazer81095 (talk) 06:22, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to hear anyone EVER say Sonic sucks again for as long as they live.
This.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  02:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I do disagree, although there must be an element of truth to this, because i do respect you over many players. Explain your oppinion

---Marqoose

Lucas
I really don't understand why lucas is considered such a bad character. I've heard that he's the most complicated character in the game and i completely agree with that. He has the highest jump in the game for one (Zap Jumping) and his recovery move can go in any direction. PSI magnet is also a great atttack because when timed right it can not only absorb energy based attacks, but can deflect almost every physical attack (not to mention excellent knock back). He also has a very slow falling speed and great arial combat moves. Can someone explain?

---Marqoose

Extremely long ground break animation allowing infinites in walls or Marth without walls. It also leaves him open for certain attacks. His strongest attacks (up and down smash) are laggy if he misses. Recovery is also a problem cause it leaves him vulnerable to attacks. But overall grab releases gives most problems to him in competitive play. Firewario (talk) 21:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's mainly the infinite grab-release thing that Marth has on him. That and his recovery can (at times) be somewhat unreliable.  I for one also agree that Lucas deserves to be bumped up, but Lucas isn't the most complicated character in the game, not by a longshot.  Most people would agree that that title belongs to Snake.  Oh, and can you sign your posts with ~ right after your messages?   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 21:45, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Marth has nothing to do with Lucas' position on this list (which I believe is currently based on agility), but I do agree that Lucas should at least be in the D section. He has plenty of killing power, speed isn't a major problem (f-smash is quick and can kill at early percentages), and he's almost medium weight. His flaws, however, although there are few, are quite serious. He's floaty, meaning he is easily juggled, has an unorthodox recovery, and his most powerful moves are extremely slow (with extremely large hitboxes). I may not be fully correct, so you should ask this guy why Lucas sucks.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  23:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Something like this should be in the forums. Y462 (T • C • E ) 00:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Really i don't believe that being "floaty" is a bad thing, being juggled in brawl is a very easy thing to get out of. and PK 2 is very reliable, it just takes alot of practice. it can also take out snakes fan which helps me alot (my friend uses snake) HOW IS SNAKE MORE COMPLICATED THSN LUCAS?!? Still, no matter wat, i still am awesome at using lucas.

---Marqoose
 * You're not really paying attention or bothering to find out why Lucas sucks, but you're now claiming to be "awesome" with him? Try looking it up on Smash boards, and maybe fighting people who aren't bad at playing Brawl.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Am i in denial, or are you in denial that sonic sucks

Yoshi and MetaKnight
My friend told me that every character has a "Weakness" (not like in pokemon with it's super effective! more like certain moves can contradict the opponents) and that Yoshi was superior to Metaknight, but (but that doesn't mean he should be higher tier than metaknight, he's not that good against most other characters) is there an element of truth here? does that mean there should be a tier cycle instead?

---Marqoose

MK is by far the best character in the game, has absolutely no disadvantage matchups, though some are even. Yoshi is a very middle tier character. Firewario (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * When did Yoshi become a middle tier character?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That's not what i meant though, the point wasn't about yoshi being low tier or metaknight being high. It was some characters may have weaknesses Marqoose (talk)
 * That isn't exactly true to be honest. Your "friend" is, unfortunately, lying to you.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The possibility that there could be an element of truth here (He believes everything he hears though, i was verifying it).
 * Dude, sign your comments. Oh, and I've also heard that Yoshi gives MK some problems, but I don't know why.  I would think that someone who could WoP easily would own Yoshi every time.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that Yoshi has super armor during his second jump makes him much more resistant to WOP than most other characters. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 17:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Last time I checked, SWF was saying that the match-up between Yoshi and MetaKnight is 60:40 to 65:35 MK's favor. Y462 (T • C • E ) 04:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I have a question...
My question is:

When will be available the next tier list for Super Smash Bros Brawl? This is the only question and I hope the date is soon. Thanks

--TwinR.O.B. (talk) 01:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't have to space your post out so much ¬_¬™ Anyway to answer your question, I'd give it at least 2 months or so (the brawl tier lists seem to come out every 5 months or  so, at least so far).  However, this process might be sped up a bit because of that HUGE Genesis tournament (I think that's what it's called) that just happened.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 02:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Why are there images instead of text?
Why are the character's images in the tier list? The page is better when the characters in the tier lists are in text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poodoas (talk • contribs) 21:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok


 * 1) They're changeable
 * 2) Sign your posts
 * 3) So an idiot does not put his favorite on top
 * all three have been have been by DRTJR (talk) 22:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ewww... Bad formatting - don't leave spaces at the start of lines, and if you want the whole of your comment to be indented, place : at the start of each new line.
 * If someone doesn't sign a comment, put their username at the end of the comment. You can find out their username and the time and date from the page history.
 * I don't get how using pictures instead of text prevents people from changing the order in the tier list (especially seeing as the templates are protected). The change to pictures instead of text was made so that it looked more attractive. The text looked boring, whereas the pictures are vibrant and colourful.
 *  Penguin  of  Death   22:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was easier to read the list when there was text instead of pictures. I also think that it looks better with text instead of pictures.--Poodoas (talk) 05:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. At first, it does seem more attractive with the pictures, but function comes before attractiveness.  It is too difficult to read, and it's also hard to see the delineations between tiers.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's probably possible to use thick borders to differentiate the tiers, but I tried using colours instead because it would be a lot easier to create and edit. (I used faded colours because people complained before about bright colours - maybe such would be better here?) Of course, I would also argue that the tiers themselves don't really matter - only the order of the characters overall matters. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:15, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Pokémon Trainer
I actually don't know why Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are ranked as a single player instead of each one. TwinR.O.B. (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * when you die they become a difernt pokemon insead of like sheik staying as sheik DRTJR (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Plus, stamina forces you to have to switch them out or suffer weaker attacks. Of course, you could always play Brawl+...  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I personally think pokemon Trainer should be higher on the teir list, its probably just me but I like the versatility in attatck methods offered by the different pokemon.

Points on Brawl Tier list
The other ones have little point values next to each character which I think represents number of tourneys won with that character (in relation to the other characters). But what about Brawl? http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7537861#post7537861 ^Most recent Tier, featured on this page. Look at the bottom section. Character		Average HIGH Meta Knight		1 Snake			1 Wario			1 Diddy Kong		1.03 Falco			1.03 King Dedede		1.03 Mr. Game & Watch	1.03 Marth			1.08 R.O.B.			1.14 Olimar			1.17 Pikachu			1.17 Ice Climbers		1.33 Kirby			1.36

MID Lucario			1.61 Zero Suit Samus		1.81 Toon Link		1.89 Donkey Kong		1.92 Pit			1.92 Peach			2.06 Sheik			2.11 Wolf			2.14 Luigi			2.19 Fox			2.28 Zelda			2.33 Bowser			2.53 Sonic 			2.56

LOW Ike			2.61 Pokémon Trainer		2.64 Lucas			2.86 Ness			2.86 Mario			2.89 Jigglypuff		2.94 Link			2.97 Yoshi			2.97 Captain Falcon		3 Ganondorf		3 Samus			3

Should these points be added? Paradox Juice (talk) 19:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Olimar spelled wrong, links to wrong page.
Can someone edit this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.43.235 (talk • contribs)
 * The problem has been fixed. Y462 (T • C  • E ) 23:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

New SSB tier list
There's a new tier list for SSB. I've tried to find sources but I've only run into forum posts and this matchup chart. Does anyone know anything about this? capefeather (talk) 02:38, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

This has been confirmed: This is the new tier list: Top Tier (1)Pikachu * (2)Fox

High Tier (3)Kirby (4)Falcon (5)Mario

Middle Tier (6)Yoshi (7)DK

Low Tier (8)Jigglypuff (9)Ness

Bottom Tier (10)Luigi (11)Link (12)Samus


 * Pikachu is considered good enough to be in even a separate tier than fox. Pikachu is either placed in a separate tier or with Fox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoRoBeNiKi (talk • contribs)

And your source is..? Miles ( talk)  00:19, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

| I'll just leave this here...

Also, it's official! Ness is the 2nd worst overall in Smash ever, yay!75.117.8.167 00:55, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with SmashBoards; is t3h Icy a SBR member? It needs the SBR approval to get on this page. Miles ( talk)   02:16, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * t3h Icy has no icon stating he's a SBR guy, so presumably he isn't. And I don't think anyone has enough time to look through the 69-page discussion and pick out how many BRoomers were in on it. That said, anything recent from SmashBoards may be more relevant than an old and undocumented list fom GameFAQs. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:32, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

ssb64 has no backroom. This new tier list is the general consensus of the ssb64 forum. -ballin4life 128.12.54.70 05:34, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

As ballin4life said, ssb64 has no back room. We are currently deciding whether to add one. This tier list has been conceded by the top smash 64 players. Our community is different from the brawl one, since we include online smash (as in netplay using project 64k, mupen64k, and p2p.) This tier list has been accepted by tthe top smash 64 people. Also, I don't know why the gamefaqs post was used, as there are 0 top players on there and the top ssb64 player (as in Isai, Tigerbombz, SuperBoomFan, Alancitu, and others) are on smashboards. Calling it a gamefaqs decision is off at best. User:KoRoBeNiKi
 * That's good enough for me. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  12:56, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

what about kirby
I know he is pretty high in brawl, but I think he should be higher. I'm an amateur player so can someone please tell my why he's so bad? I know he's light, but a strategy I use is to float above opponents and then use stone. It does very high knockback and damage. Also, his hammer in the air seems pretty fast and powerful. Can someone please help me out here?
 * I wouldn't call a character in the A tier "bad." The stuff you suggested isn't really high-level play material (repeating that same stone move over and over gets predictable), but Kirby certainly has his fair share of decent techniques.  Watch a good video of him on Youtube to see what he can really do.  The best thing you can do to up a character's tier position is enter and do well in tournaments.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:06, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * The float over strategy you talk about just doesn't work that often. Sure a stone can hit when set up well, but if all you do is that you'll be an easy target to an aerial game.  Kirby has good aerials, but his relatively slow air speed means that continued play in the air is not the best way to go about it.  As for the hammer, once it is out it is fast, but it has noticeable start-up and ending lag.  It has it's place, but it also requires considerable set up and can really only be considered a tertiary move, secondary at best.  As for his tier placement, he has good match-ups, but his light weight off sets his good recovery enough that he lacks the high end survival potential of many of the higher characters.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:46, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys, that makes sense. Its just that I expected him to be higher although he is already pretty high.

Proposed movement of a link
I think that the link to Semicolon's page shouldn't be in the Controversy on the Existence of Tiers section. I don't think an article should link to a page where a user thwarts a bunch of stupid arguments against tiers. Since it's only one user doing an examination and it isn't anything official it should either be moved to the see also section or simply removed. I do agree with what he is saying so I'm not suggesting this because I disagree with it. Tuth the tough Mii  You got owned!   Visit Mint Brick Wiki! 
 * How about this: I don't care what the "vote" here is, I'm gonna do what I can to make sure it stays. We've had this discussion before. Also, I have no idea what "official" would mean in this context. I will say that it is about the most scientifically correct (in terms of the methodology and rhetoric) study on video games I have seen in a long time. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:40, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that Semicolon's thing is legitimate. The only reason I want it moved is because it is a user page. I don't think it is right to put a link to a user page in an article. It should be moved to the see also section where it belongs. Tuth the tough Mii   You got owned!   Visit Mint Brick Wiki! 
 * The best place for the link is where it is at the moment - if you want to add another link to the page in the "See also" section, go ahead, but there should be a link to it at the top of the "Controversy of the Existence of Tiers" section no matter how many other links you provide on the page as the Treatise is all about the controversy of the existence of tiers, so the link belongs there. The fact that it's a subpage of Semicolon's user page is irrelevant - granted, it's not the sort of thing that should go in the mainspace as it's an essay written by a user, but it's a good enough essay that it can be linked to on relevant pages in the mainspace. If the essay was poorly written or just plain wrong, then this wouldn't be the case, and the link wouldn't be in the Tier list article, but it's well written and completely true, so it's okay to link to it. Also, this sort of thing doesn't require "Support" or "Oppose" sections - it's not a poll, it's a discussion.  Penguin  of  Death   15:56, October 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I've long supported making the Treatise in the SmashWiki namespace and endorsed by the wiki, which would eliminate the issue of it being in the user namespace. Miles ( talk)   02:29, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Miles. I don't find it very professional have that linked to a user page, but if it were an article, perhaps...  Kperfekt  BURN!!!   Revert That!  06:01, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Ness dropped in the SSB tier list?
How could Ness drop so low in the ssb tier list? IMO Ness was a broken character. He had a deadly spike, good air game, powerful throws, good recovery, and his yo yo was really strong and had good reach! So why did he drop?
 * Well, ssb has only 12 characters which means that if the backroom finds one thing bad about Ness he drop quite a lot. Personally I'm really not sure. Don't get me wrong: I'm a huge Ness fan and was very surprised when he dropped to the second wort guy in the series. Hopefully he will rise again. 98.117.158.220 05:28, November 15, 2009 (UTC)

I'll explain. Ness does not have a good recovery. You can just grab the ledge. and when when he recovers, spike him, or you can jump into his pk thunder and gimp him. Rinse and repeat. The only character in smash 64 with a worse recovery (most likely) is Link. Ness is the only character in ssb outside of Link who basically dies whenever he goes offstage. Ness does have a good spike and a good throw but has a bad dash grab. His DJC's are really good as well. However, Ness doesn't have the range. Ness's become quite predictable. His up tilt (main combo starter) has too much lag. The Yo-Yo also has way too much lag to be too useful outside of edgeguarding. His only main saving point is that when he can actually get a combo starting, people usually die. He is also one of the best platform characters due to down air platform combos. He has enough priority to be some of the best of the low tier, but has horrible matchups vs Falcon, Pikachu, and others. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 19:17, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * But why did he drop? 98.117.158.220 01:36, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there's what KoRo said, and there's always the ever-so-unforgiving tourny results that could of been a big factor in his big drop. Sigh...sometimes I think these professionals never give enough time to aknowledge the potential in some characters...(Third best to third worst? O_o) Havoc  Reaper48  >:D!!!  22:06, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

There aren't that many tournies for smash 64 offline anymore. If there are, they are usually dominated by Fox's, Kirby, Pikachu, and Falcon. It is also dominated by region. For example, the best player on the East Coast offline is most likely Sensei, a Fox user, while the best player in Canada is SuperBoomFan, a Falcon user, and the best player in California (outside of Isai who uses everyone), is really tied between a Falcon user and a Fox/Pika user. These players dominate their area so much. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 00:42, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Uh, they obviously did use Ness a lot, seeing as how he was considered one of the best characters for so long. Ness got a fair chance. capefeather (talk) 03:57, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Brawl Tiers, why the stupid naming?
Why use S, A, etc. this isnt sonic the hedgehog, this isnt street fighter. top, high, med/high, medium, med/low, low, bottom. its simple. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DJLO (talk • contribs) 05:20, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * With seven tiers, naming can get confusing (as you posted, there are two names with slashes), and we want to avoid extreme names like "god tier" because of the meaning they imply. I'm fine with the lettered naming, although I'd prefer not using S to start (I suppose they wanted the bottom named F or something). Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  14:22, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe a Star tier or something and get a picture of a star in there. But then, we would have to change a lot too on other articles. ☆ The  Solar  Dragon  ( talk ) ☆ 22:13, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

How many times must I say that it is in no way our call? This is what the SBR puts out, not what we think they should have put out. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 22:51, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Tournaments
A few people have said that tournaments affect tiers. I thought it was the other way around. It says somewhere on the page that tournaments are a way to back up the tier list. Arn't tiers based solely of of matchups, and if so, shouldn't bowser be at the botton as he counters nobody? 98.117.158.220 01:17, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Tiers are based off of tournament results. Matchups are not based on tiers, but they do sport a tier-matching pattern that is likely not coincidence. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  01:30, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, we should reword the page. Also, it says on Meta Knights page that the reason why he's number one is because he has the best matchups in the game. I thought tiers were a mixture of Matchps, Tournament results, Character metagames, and the Backroom's decision as a whole about each character. 98.117.158.220 04:53, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * If he has the best match-ups, he will do well in tourneys. Yes, this is all a cycle.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:20, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * So tiers are purely based on tournament results? 98.117.158.220 20:43, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about this...
If someone just got Brawl, and (s)he were to look online to see who the best character is on it, they would see Meta Knight as #1. Also, they would see characters such as Link and CF as bottom tier characters, ie. they stink. As a result of that, no one will use Link or CF, so the characters become unused, so there will be no new stradegies to use for Link ans CF. How can this be beneficial to competetive play? Eventually, everyone will just play as Meta Knight. After all, he is the best player in the game.

Tounament play will become boring and confusing. People will undoubtably go insane from MK's repeated sound effects, sending said people into violent rampages, causing thousands of deaths across the globe.

Actually, maybe not... BUT! I believe that displaying the complete tier will lead to the unuse of many characters. Displaying the top 10 in no particular order would be fine I think...

P.S. I don't play as Link/CF/Meta Knight. I just used those names as examples

67.142.130.19 16:51, November 20, 2009 (UTC) Lord Dragon


 * The recursive argument you speak of is mentioned here. Tl;dr: while it's possible the tier list affects itself recursively, there's no proof. Also, it should be mentioned that the tier list does not apply to new players, since it's based on tournament results. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  19:53, November 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, if a new person here were to see the article, they would of also read the top of the page- explaining how it works, and the treatise, too. Tournys are a major fact, yes, but your "Meta Knight will be the end of mankind" situation is exaggerated... and while I myself LOVE to exaggerate things beyond their meaning, your situation is definitly wrong- people will continue to use other characters. There are many anti-tier people who are pros with Link, Falcon, and others, fighting to get them to the top. The tier list has actually cause other people to choose characters OTHER than top tiers, don't you worry. Of course, though, who you choose to be your main shouldn't be based on who other people are good with, if that's also what you were saying. Havoc  Reaper48  >:D!!!  19:55, November 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually Toomai, I think it's very applicable to new players.
 * If a new player were to look at the tier list and the character matchup grid, they would see that characters such as Meta Knight have a clear advantage to many, if not all of the other characters in the game.
 * For instance: Ganandorf has an average matchup of 25%; MK's average is 60%. Clearly MK is a 'better' character than Ganandorf.
 * Why then, should a new player pick Ganandorf as their main?
 * Suppose a new player were to chose Ganandorf (lets call him Player 1), and another player picks MK (lets call him Player 2), and they were to practice with these characters for a week against CPU Mario. Assuming both players became roughly 'just as good' as each other, if you were to put Player 1 against Player 2 (according to the tier list), Player 1 should get his butt handed to him on Galaxia. So then the Ganandorf player, realizing the horrible error he made in choosing to play as Ganandorf, switches to MK, leading to more MK players who thrash every other character in the game. You cannot say that this argument is not accurate for casual gameplay. The game is a contest. Everyone wants to win, even if that means playing with a character other than their favorate.
 * I think that's it for Toomai. I wish (sincerely) to be proven wrong, but I don't see it.


 * And HavocReaper, you said, 'There are many anti-tier people who are pros with Link, Falcon, and others, fighting to get them to the top. The tier list has actually cause other people to choose characters OTHER than top tiers, don't you worry.'


 * I actually sorta agree with you. Although for every person who chooses Link because he's low on the list, how many people choose MK because he's #1?
 * Theoretically, fewer people play as Link because the tier list says he stinks. If the tier list and character matchup grid were to be removed, there would be nothing saying that Link sucks, so therefore, more players would play as him and, as a result, Link's fighting style will evolve to a point when a matchup against MK could be considered almost even. Unless of course MK would still be far superior than every character in the game. Then he would probably need to be banned.
 * Wow that was long. 67.142.130.19 01:16, November 21, 2009 (UTC)Lord Dragon
 * The point of this wiki is to report on what is. I don't care what you think should be, or how you think what is might impact other things.  If it is, it is, and the tier list is.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:32, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * When I say the tier list doesn't apply to new players, I mean that the metagame is completely different. New players will not be doing any of the advanced techniques or mindgames that can define certain characters' positions (such as chaingrabs for Dedede and the Ice Climbers), and the mistakes they are likely to make (simply by being novices) significantly evens out any matchup. Maybe a tier list of the novice metagame will still have Meta Knight at the top, but it won't be because the tournament tier list does. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  03:30, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Story time! :D! So, just yesterday, RAN1 and I were brawling on wifi, right? In one match, I just happened to choose Ganon and he was MK. Guess who won? I did, of course, and you wanna know why? Because I'm have more experience with Ganon than RAN1 has with MK. Matchups did say the opposite, yes, but don't forget about the experience each player has, first. I had also beat him as C.F. against his awsome Falco, too. I didn't win every single match, of course, but it seems Experience>Tier List. Havoc  Reaper48  >:D!!!  15:20, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Skill > mindgames/personal playstyle > matchups > tiers. Well known facts. Miles ( talk)   22:53, November 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * So then, HavocReaper, wouldn't it be plausible to assume that the tier is just garbage? According to you, It doesn't mean anything. Meta Knight is #1 because the guy who plays as him is awesome at the game. Couldn't the player have just as easily gotten just as good with CF? I understand that some characters just stink (Pichu in ssb:m, I think), but how could 1 char. be considered 'the best' just because he's someone's personal preference? 67.142.130.19 02:52, November 22, 2009 (UTC)Lord Dragon
 * Notrly. Clearly you didn't read the top of the article, as I said- it's based on how well the char.s are expected to play in tournys. It's based on metagame, yes, though a skill indifference could mean win or lose in any battle, not just in smash bros., but in EVERY single multiplayer game on the planet. (Think about it...) It's based on how far they've gone into making strageties angainst other fighters and on general matchups. Oh, and DO NAWT SAY PICHU SUX. HE IZ SO GOOD, HE FEELS YOUR PAIN. And another thing...whenever people adress me, it's always Havoc or HavocReaper. Never HavocReaper48, no...0_o.  Havoc  Reaper48  >:D!!!  04:10, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I think I got it now. Essentially then, the tier list doesn't do anything, it's just a record of how things have turned out and, given a continuing trend, how things are likely turn out. Skill and experience will almost always decide the game, but can be assumed to be affected by the tier. If thats it then... erm, thank you ToomaiGlittershine, Miles, and HavocReaper48 for clearing this up for me. 67.142.130.19 13:32, November 22, 2009 (UTC)Lord Dragon


 * Actually, tiers have their uses. For example, if Bob wanted to prove to himself that he was better than Jerry, he could play as Ganondorf and Jerry could play as MK. If Bob won ten times in a row, that would prove he is better. There's other uses, like training for tournaments, but as Havoc said, skill matters more. 98.117.158.220 18:10, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well this actually isn't true anonymous contributor. If one of the person's mains Ganondorf and the other person does not main Metaknight, then this does not work. Tier lists are compared for people who are both equally high skilled. It does not really say who automatically wins vs who but more says that there is more of a chance that one character will win over another. Tier lists do not say who will actually win, more of an indication of who has the higher chance. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 14:35, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Mk vs Ganon was a bad example. How about Olimar vs Ganon? It's almost impossible for the ganon player to win, and if a person isn't able to beat Ganon with Olimar at least once in say, 10 matches, than that proves that the Ganon player is better. Tiers do not determine matchups, they just are usefull for training. 98.117.158.220 06:02, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Zelda/Sheik
Why aren't they considered one person? If tiers are about potential, then whenever Zelda seems to be a better character for the battle the player can change to her, and same with Sheik. I know this is not the wiki's decision, but if you know the reason then tell me please. 98.117.158.220 20:57, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Most professionals use either one or the other. It is possible to be Zelda the whole match, or vice versa. There is not a sufficent amount of players in the professional scene that use on or the other in order to make a noticeable impact on the tier list, so they are considered separate. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:24, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

Lucas bumping
I kind of agree that lucas is a lot better if your looking at a non item fight. I mean he has a great advantage over plenty of characters if someone was to get good with him like I did. pk magnet cancels just about all physical attacks. zap jumping is great recovery, pk fire can be great for spacing opponents. and pk thunder makes for taking out many characters such as (Ike,DeDeDe,Falco, Olimar,Diddy Kong,Link,Toon Link) and many more. While I agree the up smash should probably never be used, the down smash is great for killing tether recoverers and people who love to roll. As far as infinite chain grabbing goes, that is one character(marth)and at low damage, it is possible to break out of that to about 40%
 * Did you know that Ness counters him? 98.117.158.220 03:20, November 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you want to start a discussion like this, take it to the forums. For more interesting arguments over the tier list, see SmashBoards. They often have complex debates like this over there, and it's quite an interesting site.  R A  N 1 03:27, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Update
When will the tier list update? It's one of the most important things in smash. 98.117.158.220 22:57, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Take is up with the back room. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 23:04, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Bowser
He has worse matchups than even Jiggly. Why is he not in bottom tier? 98.117.158.220 23:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, (Prepare to see 10 people respond to this, btw...), Bowser has placed better in tournaments and is an overall better character based on his metagame when compared to Jiggzzz. Matchups do not affect the tier list that much to be honest... (Link has a 50-50 against Snake, I think, and he's bottom tier.) Havoc Reaper 48  00:02, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Link has one or two counters or even mathups but over all they are bad. Bowser counters only CF and Ganondorf. Also, there's a new forum on SWF that shows a ranking of tournament characters and Bowser, along with Jiggly, is on the "never used" ranking. 98.117.158.220 00:23, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the top of the page. Or if you're too lazy to just don't post on this page again.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 01:16, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Master Hand
As an officially playable character, I believe Master Hand deserves a spot on the Melee tier list right below Pichu, opinions? He is easily the worst character because of his laggy, predictable moves and inability to dodge anything. All of his macthups are 0-100 in the other player's favour. He is current;y the only playable character (excluding AR characters) who isn't on the tier list as well. Lord-Sunday (talk) 06:32, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Tiers are based on tourney conditions. You can't play as master hand in tourneys. And actually, he would be at number one as when you play as him he can't be Koed. Also, sign your comments with four of these: ~. 98.117.158.220 06:42, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry to tell you this mate, but there is no rule to say that you can't play as him in tourneys. And he wouldn't be at number one, anyone who can't dodge his attacks for 8 minutes and win by percentage should quit smash bros. now. Oh and sorry about the signing. Lord-Sunday (talk) 07:39, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * "As an officially playable character": though it may only be the very start of your argument, it is in fact the point at which your argument falls down, as Master Hand isn't "officially playable" - he's a glitch character, so he's not legally playable in tournaments, so he does not deserve a place on any tier list. Even if he did, we wouldn't be the ones to decide - that's the job of the Smash Back Room on SmashBoards.  Penguin  of  Death   09:11, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess if glitches aren't allowed, we'll all have to stop Wavedashing, L-Cancelling, etc., then. Unless he is explicitly banned by a rule (which he isn't) then he is allowed. For more information, please check the "Tournament Legal" page. Lord-Sunday (talk) 09:14, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, let me put it this way: we can do nothing about the tier lists - we may publish them, but we have no say in their creation - so, if you really feel strongly about this, I suggest you go to Smash World Forums and try to find someone who can do something about the tier lists. Good luck,  Penguin  of  Death   10:28, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thinks Master Hand should be be on the tier list (You mean...100-0 matchups :D), thinks L-cancellnig and wavedashing are glitches...oh hello troll. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 20:21, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, by the way, Master hand may seem like an easy boss, but if he were controlled by a human, he would own. All of his attacks can kill you, are very hard to predict, and can be guided. Furthermore, he can't be KOed. Most projectiles fire too low for him so you have to get close to him, which will make you a sitting duck. L-cancelling and wavedashing are not glitches; see their respective pages. Finally, as many above have stated, we cannot do anything about tiers. You'll have to go all the way to SWF and tell them, and good luck convincing them to put master hand on the tier list :D. 98.117.158.220 20:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)