User talk:Ultimate Toad/Archive 1

Meh, this is just my talk page from when I first joined the wiki with a slightly different username. Also I didn't properly read all of the policies at the time so just ignore the first few comments.

AGF
Please be sure to assume good faith when dealing with unfavourable editing habits. A quick check could have revealed that the editor was in fact changing the page. Please be more careful in future.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  09:30, October 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * Alright I'll admit I rushed before realizing they were actually fixing the edit so I'll be more carful, sorry about that. Supα   Toαd 64  20px   09:40, October 1, 2019 (EDT)

That wasn't it bro
I am already autoconfirmed, I was using zackray page as a guideline for YMCAs and I accidentally screwed up big time. Sorry to edit it so many times but It was screwed up still every time. So i finally fixed it and I'm good now CR4VE (talk) 09:31, October 1, 2019 (EDT)

The best Smash memer
Basically it looks like someone thinks every playable character in Melee can dab. Look at look (most of) those screenshots. Note: He didn't even add Falco's spot dodge! 74.89.234.53 16:38, October 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Stop. Enough of this, we have told you countless times that, aside from the Falco one, there's no point in adding dab references for anything else. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  16:39, October 10, 2019 (EDT)

Okay I'll stop. Let's keep working on other articles. 74.89.234.53 16:58, October 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Alright I'm gonna be blunt with you now since our message is obviously not getting into your head: If we're going to reference memes it needs to be widespread in the Smash community, dabbing is obviously not widespread and is completely worthless to SmashWiki. If you're going to continue harassing users to add a reference to dabbing, stop. We don't care if you think dabbing is worth mentioning, we don't care if every character in Melee supposedly can dab, heck some of the characters' poses in the screenshots don't even remotely resemble dabbing. No matter how hard you try we're NOT referencing the dab aside from Falco. Supα   Toαd 64  20px   20:02, October 10, 2019 (EDT)

A quick warning
I know the IP is frustrating to deal with, but try to keep a cooler mind; your comments are borderline NPA. Cookies Creme  23:47, October 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Alright no problem. Supα  Toαd 64  20px   23:49, October 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I was trying put it straight forward that we're not the place for that stuff but I went overboard. I'll try to be more careful. Supα   Toαd 64  20px   23:56, October 11, 2019 (EDT)

There's a template for that...
Hi SupaToad64! I saw on your userspace that you have written down your NIWA accounts. There is a template, if that makes it easier. The template is called Template:User NIWA, if you want to add it to your userspace. I just wanted to inform you, I thought it was a cool template😉 Hoodie the Wolf (talk) (The guy that sucks at Smash Bros) 15:37, October 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Got it! Supα   Toαd 64  20px   20:49, October 19, 2019 (EDT)

Unprotected image.
The Banjo-Kazooie image for Ultimate is If someone doesn't protect it, people might vandalize this image. 74.89.234.53 17:07, November 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * Uh... I know I'm not Supa, but what do you want him to do? He isn't an admin, so he can't protect it. Also, it would be very unlikely for someone to vandalize an image (which would be uploading an unrelated image over it), as most vandals go for pages instead. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer  Leave a message if needed 18:16, November 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * To Awesomelink, we generally protect icons just in case of vandalism.
 * To IP, you can contact any of the active admins here. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  18:19, November 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm not an admin here so I can't protect it. Your best bet is probably User:Aidanzapunk since he seems to be the most active here. Supα   Toαd 64  20px   21:25, November 1, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding my edits to Ness (SSBU)
Your note that "previous wording was better" is rude and unsubstantiated. The irony is that I am a professional editor. I literally edit documents for a living. I made those revisions because the writing was rather sloppy and unorganized, and there were several inconsistencies. For example, the word "edgeguarding" was at times hyphenated and at other times not hyphenated, and the possessive "Ness" was sometimes written as "Ness's" and other times as "Ness'"

Moreover, my edits included significant details that are not present in the prior version. I noted that Ness' PSI magnet, when used for double-jump cancelling, gives Ness a unique aerial burst option, and I rephrased the initial paragraph under "Attributes" to give a better overview of Ness' strengths, weaknesses, and optimal playstyle, as opposed to just listing his attributes.

I also cleaned up certain sections to make them much more direct and concise. Note the passages on Ness' vulnerability to juggling and the descriptions of his up and down smashes.

If you would like to offer a detailed explanation of why the previous version was "better," I am open to having that conversation, but I put considerable thought into those edits, and I do not appreciate seeing them undone for seemingly no reason.

- J-Off —Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.155.250 (talk • contribs) 20:51 2019, December 28


 * If I came off as rude then I apoligize, but first you didn't mention in the edit summary why you made the revert. As I had mentioned: reverting another user's revert is against the wiki rules. While you added information on how his floatiness and lack of landing options make him vulnerable to juggling, you also removed the fact on how the removal of multiple air dodges leaves him vulnerable to juggling to characters with fast aerials. You also removed how PSI magnet can set up a smash attack after a jab lock situation. Furthermore this is a wiki that anyone can edit. There are edits I made that I put effort into that were removed. This wiki doesn't belong to anyone as it is a community site, even if you don't appreciate your edits being undone, it's going to happen in some way or another, that's how wikis are. Also to sign your comments use four tildes ( ~ )  Supα Toαd 64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 00:44, December 29, 2019 (EST)

Wait
There's a way to make the templates, but from what SK and Alex said on Discord what we are doing is not the way right now. Cookies Creme  20:17, January 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Alright then how should it be done?  Supα Toαd 64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 20:18, January 3, 2020 (EST)
 * SK's crafting up an example right now. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  20:20, January 3, 2020 (EST)
 * OK I'll check back once it's done.  Supα Toαd 64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 20:22, January 3, 2020 (EST)

Noob Help
First off, I totally agree with you that Toad should be in Smash (He's on my list right up there with King Boo and B. W. Dee.) I have been working on a fanfiction based on Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, and I was wondering if it might be published on the wiki alongside something like the Smash Arena. I have no idea if someone has asked this before, or even if it will be liked. I apologize if this isn’t the place for this, also. I was hoping you could point me to someone who could give me info on this. I chose you because, well, you seemed to handle that coconut2 guy well. Magolor04726 (talk) 23:02, January 22, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726

Also, I might not be able to respond if you say something on my talk page. Magolor04726 (talk) 23:05, January 22, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726

Or maybe you could give me info, if you know anything. If I can't put it here, I'll probably see if the mariowiki Shroom will take it. And last thing, very sorry for rambling and adding this in various messages. I am very new to this. Magolor04726 (talk) 23:12, January 22, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
 * Firstly, questions like these are meant to be posted on the . Consider posting any general questions you may have there in the future.
 * To answer your question, SmashWiki does not have the infrastructure necessary to publish/host user content on the level that MarioWiki's The Shroom does, neither have we deemed it necessary. Your only option is to create a userpage for the sake of hosting your project (for this, you'll need to be at least autoconfirmed).
 * Even then, this is not ideal, since factors such as the may impose unwanted limits to your project's workflow. If you must absolutely host it here, create a userpage containing a link to your project hosted in another, more appropriate site, like fanfiction.net. This allows for better organization in your project without the limitations of userspace. NokiiSig.png  Nokii  — 00:20, January 23, 2020 (EST)

Alright, then, The 'Shroom it is. Thanks. Magolor04726 (talk) 16:57, January 23, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726

Flying Man as a boss
I see you stated that "Flying Man is not a boss in any way", and since I was the one who added that to the table, I suppose I owe you an explanation, even if you don't agree. The thing is that Flying Man shares many characteristics of the other stage bosses. Helps you out when you attack him? Just like Ridley in SSB4. While yes, the Flying Man does not attack until being hit, the Dark Emperor doesn't even actually attack from my knowledge, he just debuffs. I'd even go far as to say that the Flying Man disrupts gameplay more than the Dark Emperor. While he also does have less attacks than the prior ones mentioned, Metal Face and the Yellow Devil only have three attacks (only one more than the Flying Man), and nobody argues that they're stage bosses. 72.203.118.154 01:44, February 3, 2020 (EST)
 * One important factor you're missing is that those stage bosses are also bosses in their home series, but not Flying Man. In both EarthBound Beginnings and EarthBound Flying Men are allies for you and not ememies in any form. All other bosses have been bosses in at least their home series or SSB series, but neither is the case for Flying Man. It makes no sense to call him a stage boss when he was never a boss in the first place.  Supα Toαd 64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 03:22, February 3, 2020 (EST)
 * That's actually a very valid point that Flying Man is not a boss in Earthbound (something I didn't actually know about), but I don't think that would stop him from qualifying as a stage boss. He fills exactly the same role on Magicant as Ridley did on Pyrosphere, with the only difference being that Flying Man has less moves (which, like I mentioned earlier, all other stage bosses besides Ridley have around the same amount of attacks as Flying Man). Even if Flying Man is an ally in Earthbound, his appearance in Smash matches that of the stage bosses.
 * If worse comes to worse and we can't agree, maybe the wiki could switch over to just referring to stage bosses as stage hazards, and removing them from boss tables? There have always been characters who act as hazards, but aren't listed as stage bosses, such as Nabbit, Kamek, Palkia, Dialga Cresellia, Shy Guys, Klaptraps, Piranha Plant (on the Mushroom Kingdom 64 stage) and probably a few more I'm missing, all comparable to the Dark Emperor, so I'm starting to wonder if what exactly is a stage boss is a little arbitrary, just like those Final Smash classifications from before Smash 4 came out. 72.203.118.154 03:56, February 3, 2020 (EST)
 * ...Good point actually. I believe what seperates stage "bosses" from "hazards" is that they can be defeated after taking enough attacks. Even though I still don't consider Flying Man a boss, I too am wondering if stage bosses are a bit arbritrary, unless there is some difference I'm missing.  Supα Toαd 64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 04:51, February 3, 2020 (EST)

Is it really necessary to remove the Changes to SSB4 section?
Maybe i'm wrong, but i don't think that altering the Changes to SSB4 section to block changes is a good idea. First off, this will stop us from improving the page, and second, if there is a new balance patch, i won't be able to insert the changes. You also removed the sections that showed differences betweeen semi-clones, such as those between Young Link and Toon Link. Was this really necessary?79.18.11.200 06:48, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * First of all I'm not an admin here so I couldn't do anything about it, although I did support the proposal. Second those sections were constantly being messed up by random IPs that were changing the wording to make it wrong, or exaggerating a character's buffs as seen from what I removed here. If you wish to edit those pages then you need to create an account and become autoconfirmed to edit them.  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 06:54, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * In the case of Kirby's buffs, they come from patch 6.0.0, and the changes i added described the increased power of his attacks and the partially restored combo ability of forward throw on platforms. In the changes page i couldn't even write that Kirby has better KO potential overall, but this is true, as his smash attacks are stronger, up aerial can KO at high percents, and according the the calculations i made from the Calculator, you can find in Kurogame Hammer, i noticed that his post 6.0.0 patch neutral aerial can KO at around the same percentages as his back aerial. Heck, to be honest, i thought everyone were underestimating them, as i saw a video on Youtube that is more specific. 79.18.11.200 07:03, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * Oh it's you again. Well I suggest you re-read Talk: Kirby (SSBU) to find out why the edits were erroneous. Hate to break it to ya but you were one of the IPs responsible for why the changelist sections have been blocked from IPs editing.  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 07:09, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * Wait a second, do you actually think that it's all my fault for this? Look, maybe i haven't done it in the best way, but if i try to say that Kirby's KO potential has been improved, and this is true, don't remove it. No offense, i just want to make myself clear. Heck, i cannot even explain it better in the talk page, and i tried that almost two months ago, but no one answered. 79.18.11.200 07:17, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * I never said it's all your fault, I said your one of the IPs. Read this and you'll see that there were several IPs that were messing up the changelists, you weren't the only one. In case it's still not clear about Kirby, he has improved but not to a major extent. He's still considered bottom tier, and the way you're wording it makes it look like he can be raised up to lower-mid or mid tier, which is widely seen as being false. May I remind you of this?  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 07:25, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * Yeah, but first off, that was four months ago, and thus pre-patch 6.0.0. Second, the issues with Kirby are simply too deep in his poor air mobility, and that's the issue. And third, i didn't made it look like that Kirby is a mid tier or something, but there something like that in King K. Rool's page, and he is considered one of the worst characters in the game too. Besides, is this the reason the Dr. Mario and Lucina pages are still protected and almost no one can apply improvements? Because everyone fought about the fact they were or weren't clones? I think of them like semi-clones: Lucina is more balanced and consistent since she lacks a tipper, and Dr. Mario has actually become more distinct since SSB4, with a new down aerial, a new back throw, electric effects instead of fire effects and different properties in some moves. In SSB4, he could be considered only a stronger but slower Melee Mario, but as of now, he is way too distinct to be a clone of him, so he is a semi-clone. I also noticed that Peach and Daisy's page are protected because someone tried to put fan-made names to their moveset. 79.18.11.200 07:29, February 9, 2020 (EST)


 * You're putting it in the section where the changes from the transition to Ultimate are supposed to be listed, which is not where the changes in updates are supposed to go. But you're still missing the point: you keep exaggerating his buffs to make him look better than he actually is. He's still considered low and sometimes bottom tier.


 * Another issue is with : you exaggerate his buffs as shown here to make him look like the absolute best character in the game, and judging by how you said "Do you think Pikachu is overrated and should be nerfed?" you want him to be nerfed. Look I'm no pro but even I know the statement "Pikachu can perform zero to death combos without risk even against experienced players" is incredibly biased to the point of being opinionated, and I am a Pikachu main. Even though he was sometimes considered "broken" early on (which in my opinion was an exaggeration), characters like Peach and Joker are widely considered better.


 * So basically I'll put this in a nutshell: Watch the way you word things. If you don't like how bad Kirby is, this wiki can't do anything about it.
 * EDIT: Now as for Dr. Mario he is still considered a clone as seen in the clone page. Admittedly I thought he was a semi-clone too but reading more about him changed my opinion: The only major difference is in his down air and down special, and his neutral special, but everything else is mostly the same as Mario. Even more so with Lucina, the lack of sweet and sourspots is not signifficant enough. Finally the real reason why Peach and Daisy's pages are protected is because a user named Memoryman3 kept changing Daisy to make her seem more unique from Peach, to the point where he was bombarding the wiki with sockpuppets to get his opinion through.  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 07:57, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * About Pikachu, the truth is that his already solid strenghts have been improved even further. I mean, i think that Pikachu should be nerfed only because its aerials are annoying, not risky at all and way too rewarding. I'm not even surprised if someone says that Pikachu is annoying to deal with due to having a spammable projectiles and aerials that have so much reward for free, it's a bit unfair. What do you think about that? 79.18.11.200 08:05, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * Read what I said above. I'm not a professional but even I know Pikachu's aerials are not "riskless". You can still air-dodge out of his bair, and as a Ness main, his projectiles are like a free heart container. Even if you're not Ness, spamming projectiles becomes predictable and easily punishable. You saying it's "unfair" only makes your side look worse. So no I do not think he is "broken" by any means.  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 08:16, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * What i mean is that Pikachu's aerials have too little ending lag and too much reward, i mean, back aerial is like Palutena's n-air, you can hit opponents four or five times with it. They shouldn't have so much reward with the speed they have. And what about ESAM? Maybe i'm biased, but he is cocky and arrogant ever since SSB4 came out. He talks about Pikachu like it's the best character in the game, and some tier lists show it as the best character, and he has opinions, especially about his main, that are so controversial that someone even made the hastag esamopinions. Its aerials can lead in so much that unless you use good DI you're dead, so i'm not surprised if someone finds Pikachu annoying, i can't blame them. You could improve Pikachu's KO power, but its aerials and edgeguarding are a bit too much. Because of its aerials and its edgeguarding game, this forces you to camp him in order to defeat it, as its lack of range is its main weakness. 79.18.11.200 08:50, February 9, 2020 (EST)


 * So you still can't give more thorough responses other than "Yeah I see your point, but I still think Kirby is good and that's a fact." huh? That still doesn't change the fact that you word it too optimistically and make him look much better than he actually is. And here's a fact: I never had to camp against Pikachu in order to beat him.


 * Anyways I'm not going to try to convince you anymore because by the looks of it, your opinion is not going to change. I'll just leave you with one final statement: Stop exaggerating characters' buffs and nerfs.  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 08:57, February 9, 2020 (EST)

I don't put any opinions on tier lists as facts. I just think that Kirby's buffs are underestimated and Pikachu is annoying to play against.79.18.11.200 09:08, February 9, 2020 (EST)
 * Whatever. Anyways like I said I'm done trying to convince you since it's no use Excuse me Silver, get outta here!, and so here's my final message: Hello! And... goodbye!  Supα Toαd  64  [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] 09:20, February 9, 2020 (EST)

You know something? i feel like you're attacking me, it's always like this, where everone is gainging up on me. I don't take anything about tier lists as facts, nor i force it on others. Stop attacking me and take edits with a grain of salt. No offence, but i think that you're offending me by taking things too seriously, and if you thought more on both sides, you could understand that, but you don't. 79.18.11.200 09:29, February 9, 2020 (EST)