Forum:P+ content

Following the development of Project+, we find ourselves in need of answers for how we should handle it. There are a number of different methods we could go about doing this, and it is the aim of this proposal to cover all of it.

P+ is the spiritual successor to PM, though unofficially it seems to aim to finish what the PMDT couldn't. It's the result of years of PM’s modding and competitive scenes. P+ was made by community leaders, top players, and established modders. It features updated balance, stages, songs, and costumes, and it's built on top of the Legacy TE version of PM. You can find out more at the Project Plus homepage.

Most of the competitive scene has been running P+ in competitive events since its initial release early last year. Since then every major region including US, Canada, South America, and Japan have switched to P+. Though there are a few notable exceptions to this: in some parts of Europe like the Netherlands there are thriving PM 3.6 scenes. However for just about everywhere else, P+ is the tournament standard. P+ 1.05b has had 3 majors run on it, , and. Every major going forward would run version 2.0, though Coronavirus has postponed it. A 200 man netplay bracket featuring most of pmrank and several top 20 melee players had already happened. Since 2.0s initial release its gotten play and video coverage from players like Leffen, Mang0, Plup, PPMD, Zain, Junebug and more. For the majority of the world its the final version of PM. (summary graciously provided by Che-N-Grab of the P+ community)

This discussion will last for a decent amount of time in order to give everyone a voice here, this is to appeal to the Smash community at large, not just SmashWiki editors or the Project M/+ community. So to begin:

Part 1: Do we cover this at all?
If this section gets support, the following will occur: If you oppose this part of the proposal, please do not vote on the rest of it.
 * Project + will get its own article (the PM article will be untouched, aside from mentioning P+).
 * We will cover Project + tournaments.
 * An article icon will be added for use on event articles (and P+ specific articles should that be decided on) only.

Support

 * 1) This allows for P+ events to be noted separately from PM events (which will become more relevant over time as the P+ meta evolves and becomes even more different from the PM meta), and also allows us to keep better track of the popularity of P+ in case it ever reaches high enough levels that we need to increase the amount of content included. Dek Zek Dekzeksig.png 19:11, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) I've already seen several tournaments transition to P+, and I believe it's inevitable that other tournaments will follow suit, and sooner or later most Project M majors would be using it. Looking ahead, Smash 'N' Splash 6 is using Project+ (labeled as Project M+), and said tournament series generally holds the largest PM tournaments of all time (SnS 5 having almost 400 entrants), so we're gonna have to add some form of P+ sooner or later. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  19:14, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 3) Supporting for the reasons mentioned above. Project + has become just as popular as PM, if not even more so. Because of its popularity in tournaments there's no reason to not give it a mention on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]]  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  19:43, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 4) Given the depth of the changes being implemented *game wide* (not just balancing) i believe it is different enough to have its own wiki. so many new stages, menu options, extra modes, costumes, tournement presence,etc...its a lot to cover as simply a footnote on the PM wiki. - WaveOfSilence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.13.88 (talk • contribs) 19:59, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 5) Most of the Project M scene is already moving over to Project Plus, and it would be extremely useful to have a wiki page that allows people to easily learn what this version is, how it differs, and which builds upon the existing PM pages to provide useful information. I'm aware that there was/is another discussion about PM's place on this wiki at all, but given that the game is still hosted here and has regularly updated content here for top players and events, IMO it makes sense to at least do that correctly by reflecting the current version of the game being played. - Tscsabre —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tscsabre (talk • contribs) 20:05, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 6) Support due to its rising popularity rivaling PM, and with the PM scene seeming to be moving towards P+. Just as with PM, even if this isn't an official Smash game, its significance to the Smash community is enough for us to document it.  Voqéo T  21:25, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 7) While Project Plus is distinct from Project M in many ways, I have witnessed it become the de facto successor to Project M in my local scene and at the events I have traveled to since its inception. The netplay build of P+ 2.0 has reached over 100,000 downloads on the primary site alone, as one measurement of its popularity. While this is certainly not peak Project M notoriety, it still reinforces the idea that Project Plus is the new standard for much of the world. If Project M is worth covering, then I believe Project Plus has crossed that threshold as well. FlashingFire (talk) 22:02, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Agreed. For context, it took a few years for Legacy XP (another fairly popular Brawl mod) to reach 100,000 BrawlVault downloads. SSB Symbol (flat).png davidvkimball  19:51, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 1) Project+ is essentially the continued development of Project M and most of the community is moving forward with it. I see no reason as to why we should deny it. Pokebub (talk) 23:38, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) Project+ is the new Project M, there's no ifs or buts about it. If the wiki wants to get with the times regarding what the most popular competitive Super Smash Bros. mod is, then adding full, fleshed out content on Project+ and its features is the way to go. BIG CHUNGUS (Talk to me about why Pikmin is the greatest series ever and why it deserves much better representation in Smash) 04:09, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 3) Project Plus is now more important then PM so it’s a good idea to cover it by either making new pages or replacing pm contain Thegameandwatch (talk)
 * 4) Sentiments I expressed in the past still apply here, I still don't care for PM/P+ and I will probably never touch P+, but until server space/costs become an actual issue or Nintendo C&Ds us I don't see any problem with covering it as long as there are users willing to do the work for those articles. We always been a community-centric wiki after all, so I wouldn't say it stretches our scope. However I think it's reasonable to wait some time to see if P+ isn't just a fad, so I wouldn't oppose waiting to add content on the condition of P+ showing it has the sticking power to supplant PM. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 07:48, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 5) I like Project M. I've had a lot of fun messing around with it. But I also feel like it's run its course. Things like P+ and PNX (especially the latter) only make it seem like the community can't give up Melee, which, surprise, is the running joke amongst the other portion of the fanbase that can. However, PM on its own has had a significant impact on the Smash community, and I honestly can't even think of another fighting game series that has a PM equivalent (unless we want to count something like MUGEN, which isn't really a mod of a series per se, but definitely takes a few pages from Street Fighter). If we're going to do anything with P+, it should be to mention it as an extension of PM (as in, within a section of the Project M article), and go about our day. Aidan,  the Rurouni  14:13, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 6) Project Plus-dedicated coverage is a no-brainer. It possesses enough notoriety and is distinct enough from Project M proper. SSB Symbol (flat).png davidvkimball  16:46, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 7) As a casual player I can honestly say that P+ is one of my favorite smash bros gamesZachula5 (talk) 16:57, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 8) Support for the reasons above. --King K. Rool SSBU.png Plague   von Karma King K. Rool SSBU.png 19:17, April 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * 9) I support this proposal for the reasons above. S3AHAWK S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.pngS3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png ( talk ) 23:10, May 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * 10) Support for the reasons above. User:JeffStonk 20:57, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Oppose

 * 1) This whole situation is getting way out of hand. As the SmashWiki, our job is to report on the Super Smash Bros. series, not an assortment of mods that people have made on it. I have no idea why Serpent King decided to open this forum before I opened the one about whether we should be keeping all of the character articles for PM in the first place, but there you go. This is not the modding Wiki, and we shouldn't have so much content on mods of the games.  Alex  the  Weeb  19:11, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Keep in mind, Alex, there we had a proposal to delete all PM character articles, which ultimately failed. Had I been a user at that time I would've also opposed for the same reasons as Omega Tyrant. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]]  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  19:43, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * That is a very old, and very poorly made proposal which puts focus on irrelevant factors such as the popularity of Project M. That proposal has nothing to do with what I am talking about.  Alex the  Weeb  19:48, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 1) Give it a page of its own, like we do for 20XX, Brawl Minus, etc. Do not give it anything beyond that until it garners the same level of mass media coverage that PM did. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 20:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I feel like I should elaborate a little more. PM only has such prominence on the wiki because there was a time where it was being noticed and reported on by large news outlets as an impressive and unique feat, for example how IGN created one of their in-house wikis for it with the same degree of prominence as any other game. I do not believe any other mod, regardless of anything, should be considered for "article icon status" or such until it can at least match this level of "casual prominence". Of course, it is more than welcome to have its own page on the wiki much like any other popular mod, and I don't really see anything wrong with listing it on tournament pages (as long as no one tries to slide Knuckles into the wiki's head template or anything, display that manually if you have to). Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 22:44, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I am not following you here. Why allow P+ tournaments articles, but not allow the article icon?  Serpent King  09:34, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * It's not truly about the icon itself, but about the things it implies, such as adding "P+ mains" to Template:Infobox Smasher. We should not consider P+ on equal standing with PM until it proves equal extraordinary notability beyond "it's popular in the inner community". Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Bold 10:24, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * But we could just replace it with project m mains so I don't think that wont matter too much with the templates. Its Ya Boy, MeleeBoi [[Image:Head.png|link=]]

Neutral

 * 1) I personally do not care much for mods. They're great fun, but they aren't official content. That said, Project M has had an impact on the Smash community, and I think the community is just as important as the games themselves. I'm not too sure about P+'s impact, but as it is a continuation of Project M, I see no reason to not include it, either. This is a fine line that is being walked on, however. As I already said, mods are not official content, so making one an exception could lead to more exceptions. But we also have Brawl- and not Super Smash Bros. Crusade, so *shrug* Never mind, there's apparently a large number of mods being covered, but my thoughts still stand. Alex95 (talk) 19:46, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) I’m... fine with giving Project+ a separate page. But if we’re talking about character articles, not until it’s a household name like Project M. Even then, rather than making new Project+ character pages if it ever proves worthy, just rewrite them over the Project M character pages. 72.203.118.154 00:06, April 10, 2020 (EDT)

Comments
For those who are against covering PM/P+ on the wiki because it's a mod, consider this point: the largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments, and there are still tournaments that clock over 300 entrants. No other mod has had such a big impact on competitive play, and so I strongly believe PM should be an exception to the mod rule. Cookies Creme  19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * "the largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant. There are a lot of games which have had bigger tournaments than games in the Smash series, but we don't cover them because, like Project M, they are not a part of the Smash series, and therefore shouldn't be covered here.  Alex the  Weeb  19:21, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * ...that makes no sense. You're saying we shouldn't include Mortal Kombat tournaments (for example) because they aren't smash, and so we shouldn't cover PM/+ for the same reason? That's an absurd argument.  Serpent King  19:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * You can call it an absurd argument all you want, but the fact remains that PM is not a part of the Super Smash Bros. series, and that's the series this Wiki covers.  Alex the  Weeb  19:24, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * That is not a fact, it's your opinion.  Serpent King  19:25, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Um, no it's not. Mods of a game in a series are not a part of that series. This is not something that I have just come up with, this is as true as saying that Newer Super Mario Bros. Wii is not a part of the New Super Mario Bros. series. If you're going to challenge me on something, make sure it's actually something that can be challenged.  Alex the  Weeb  19:28, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * But isn't PM a mod of the Smash series? Yes. And does it have a notable competitive scene? Also yes. And do most of them play PM because it's related to Smash? Yes. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  19:30, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Once again, that's irrelevant. The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything. The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason a significant portion of the community is ok with being completely inconsistent with regards to what we do and don't cover, and hence we end up turning a blind eye to excessive amounts of content on mods (which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them, which is in part due to the fact that on some level they realize that these articles don't belong here).  Alex the  Weeb  19:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * If you're gonna compare us to other wikis, Bulbapedia covers, which isn't related to Nintendo or The Pokémon Company, yet still has a huge userbase. If something's really popular that it gets attention from the press, it's our job to cover it. Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  19:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * "The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason"
 * What other Nintendo wikis do is completely irrelevant to us, we are our own independent entity, and since the very beginning when this wiki started in the mid-2000s we have been a heavily community-centric one, with a significant focus on the community aspect of the game. SmashWiki is not official has been our policy since 2008, if you want a Smash Wiki that is ultra official and shuns all content that isn't official Nintendo-approved like your cited Nintendo wikis, you'll have to go elsewhere and start up your own Smash Wiki, trying to change the entrenched over decade-long culture of this one is a losing battle.
 * "which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them"
 * Articles for all sorts of content becomes outdated and inaccurate, especially those based on changing content, until someone eventually comes along to edit them. SmashWiki is not complete is another important tenet of this wiki, where everything is always a work in progress and everything can be improved farther. "This article is bad" is never remotely a good reason to completely truncate content, and if the quality of some articles bothers you, then go be the change you want to see it and fix the articles yourself. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 08:13, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * I feel as adding to your comment about "What other Nintendo wikis do is completely irrelevant to us" I should bring up a segment from SmashWiki is not Wikipedia to further support this:


 * "This extends to other NIWA wikis, as one wiki covering information a certain way or having a particular policy does not mean that SmashWiki should cover information that same way or follow that particular policy, and vice versa.". (Wow I'm actually replying to THE Omega Tyrant, I really wish I was a user when you were active to see you in action)


 * Back to seriousness now. Other wikis might not mention fan-made content, but that does not mean that we should do the same.


 * "PM is not a part of the Super Smash Bros. series, and that's the series this Wiki covers." This still doesn't change the fact that PM was built off of a game in the Super Smash Bros series, that being Brawl. Reguardless of how signifficant the changes in PM were, the root of the game is still Brawl which is part of the Super Smash Bros series. As long as it's significant among the community, whatever is related to the Super Smash Bros series we cover it, reguardless if it's official or not. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]]  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  08:41, April 10, 2020 (EDT)

(reset indent) Let me ask you, then. What do we do if there's a major P+ tournament (which is gonna come no matter what). Do we just not acknowledge it? Cookies Creme  19:32, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Exactly, because it's not our job to acknowledge it, that's the job of modding Wikis like the PM Wiki.  Alex the  Weeb  19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

There are a large number of people who would disagree with the notion that PM isn't a smash game. It technically isn't from the perspective that Nintendo did not publish it, but in this case the fact that the fanbase would agree that it is a part of the series overrides that.  Serpent King  19:33, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Absolutely not. The truth is not a popularity contest. Those who claim that a mod of a game in a series is a part of that series have no leg to stand on other than the fact that they want to believe it is.  Alex the  Weeb  19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * So I see that Alex is basically the Miles of Project +. You do realize, Alex, that just because it's not a game made by Nintendo that does not mean we have to completely ignore it. As Omega Tyrant said "Trying to keep the wiki in its own bubble only shuns potential editors, and degrades the wiki's content". As the policies specifically state:


 * "Project M is a mod that has attained an unprecedented level of notability among the community and even outside it. As a result, it has been decided by the wiki community that Project M should be allowed to have pages about its characters, in addition to a page about itself."


 * And...


 * "pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the Brawl mod Project M) will not be acceptable."


 * The fact still stands that P+ is having a significant impact in the Smash community. The fact that it's a mod does not mean we must completely ignore it.


 * "The largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant." No, it is completely relevant. The fact that PM was overshadowing Brawl in terms of competitive play was one of the reasons why we started having PM content in the first place. Completely disregarding any mention of P+ just because it's "not official" is a terrible reason to oppose.


 * "The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything." Yes it does. Again why do we have pages for PM in the first place? Because of its popularity in the community. Project + has nearly overshadowed PM in terms of competitive play, it's enough to make it notable on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]]  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  20:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT)


 * I'd like to take a moment to address the argument that Mods shouldn't be covered because of the lack of Nintendo endorsement. Why is this even a factor when UCF and 20XX are also allowed? Is there a petition to remove those as well? If not then it's clear that significant and impactful mods are allowed on the wiki. In which case I propose a metric of the bare minimum amount of impactfulness. This can be done in a few ways, the number of downloads, tournament presence, or other subjective factors like the amount the title has penetrated the cultural zeitgeist. I think Project + will pass all of these tests and more. I think the debate should be where and how we place the articles, not whether they should be included. King of Sweaty Palms (talk) 13:18, April 10, 2020 (EDT)

For those interested, here's a draft for if we have a seperate page for P+, which looks like it will happen. Anyone is free to edit it.  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  09:08, April 14, 2020 (EDT)

Part 2: What do we do about the character articles
There are a few ways we could do this. Please pick one of the following options, please do not vote oppose on any of these. If you have an idea for an alternate option, please discuss it in comments.

Make sections for Project + on the existing Project M character articles
We would also make an article for Knuckles. This also raises the question "do we rename the articles to reflect P+" (In other words, Mario (PM) or Mario (P+)). Please include incite on this if you vote here.
 * 1) ...As a Project M/+ player, IMO it makes the most sense to add sections to the PM articles to reflect the P+ changes. This makes it easier for users to find information about both versions of the character, and reduces the number of unnecessary pages on the wiki. - Tscsabre —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tscsabre (talk • contribs) 20:03, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) I believe this proposal would be the most efficient means of covering P+ characters thanks to the existence of the Project Plus Changelog on the official site. P+ sections could be brief summaries of character changes in more easily understood language, while a link to the changelog could satisfy those looking for more specific details. FlashingFire (talk) 21:54, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 3) Creating individual Project+ character pages would be a pretty big hassle considering a good portion of information would be redundant. Adding update history to PM pages and denoting that the changes come from P+ makes a lot of sense. Pokebub (talk) 23:42, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 4) It’s probably a better idea to just put the project plus in the existing pm pages with an p+ page separate from pm Thegameandwatch (talk)
 * 5) We should treat P+ as essentially just a PM update in my opinion. --Rdrfc (talk) 05:34, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 6) And only make character pages for the new characters, if necessary.  Cookies CnC Signature.png Creme  14:26, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 7) I'd rather have the P+ articles replace the PM since they are basically the legit updateZachula5 (talk) 20:11, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 8) As per above, and I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said.  Voqéo  T  08:29, April 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * 9) Support for the reasons given above. --King K. Rool SSBU.png Plague   von Karma King K. Rool SSBU.png 19:16, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

Make separate articles for Project + characters

 * 1) Given that several characters have massive changes (IE: Bowser/Charzard) and to keep things together, should we get the wiki it would be better to have everything pertaining to it in one area - WaveOfSilence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.167.13.88 (talk • contribs) 19:56, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) I Support because numerous characters, stages, and other general stuff in P+, recieved buffs, nerfs, and patches including that nasty pm glitch in patch 3.6 and the inclusion of an echidna (you guess) will be mandatory to add update history, attributes, and changes from Project M in the separate section of the PM characters will be completely messy and require either a cleanup or split notification. Thats my opinion so far...  S3AHAWK S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.pngS3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png ( talk ) 23:22, May 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * on second thought. S3AHAWK S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.pngS3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png ( talk ) 15:15, May 15, 2020 (EDT)

Nothing, do not cover Project + characters

 * 1) I would like to clarify that I only believe this as a temporary measure. For now, P+ does not have enough popularity to warrant pages for every P+ character. And as per my concerns earlier about distinguishing PM and P+, making P+ an addendum onto the PM character pages will cause additional problems. If/when P+ reaches the same levels of popularity as PM, then we can reconsider, but for now this is the best option. I would also be open to a condensed page in the style of User:Miles of SmashWiki/PM condensing but with changelogs also noted as an intermediate measure, but that is outside the scope of this proposal. Dek Zek Dekzeksig.png 19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Meh I would worry that such an article would be far too long, especially if we decide not to trim off content from the PM articles.  Serpent King  19:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Forgot to mention this in my response earlier, but if/when P+ reaches sufficient levels of recognition, I would then support option 2. Tacking P+ changes onto the PM article creates several problems which are resolved by giving them their own articles for their appearances in P+. Dek Zek Dekzeksig.png 18:54, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 1) Again this is only temparory: In my opinion I believe we should wait until Project + reaches the same level of significance as PM before deciding on how characters work. It's too early to have each character have individual pages. If you ask me putting them in PM character pages would only work short term: should major changes be made to P+ characters, mixing them in the PM characters' pages would cause confision and problems long term, plus it would make it difficult for readers to find the characters' P+ exclusive versions. Should P+ reach that level then I'd vote on option 2 to distinguish it from PM, plus we have Knuckles in P+. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]]  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  18:50, April 10, 2020 (EDT)
 * 2) I now support as shown above but only temporarily. The only exception I can think is Knuckles I guess. S3AHAWK S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.pngS3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png ( talk ) 15:25, May 15, 2020 (EDT)

Comments
Will a Knuckles icon be added anyways? Cookies Creme  19:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * If we decide to cover the project, yes at least for use in tournament results.  Serpent King  19:20, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

As of right now I feel as though we should wait to see if P+ makes significant changes to characters. Unless P+ completely "replaces" PM I don't think the first option will work. EDIT: I meant second option, not first.  OmegαToαd the Toαd Wαrrior   (BUP)  19:53, April 9, 2020 (EDT)