Talk:Fighter/Archive 2

"Lost" veterans
This may be semantics and something we may not have to consider for a while yet, but I'm wondering if there should be a distinction between two types of veterans for any particular installment: ones that appeared in the directly-preceding game (and thus were still "current" leading up to the new one) and those that were absent before returning in that installment. Obviously at this point in time, the only qualifying character would be Dr. Mario, but it's just something I've been thinking. Doc almost feels like he's between a veteran and being a newcomer again; after being absent in Brawl, he had to catch up on a lot of conventions it introduced once he returned, like a Final Smash or multiple taunts, and even more basic is that he hadn't been in a Smash game for over a decade before SSB4. Again, it may not be necessary to make the distinction at the current time, but something to think about for the future of the series if this potentially becomes more commonplace (for example - and this is a way-off hypothetical - Ice Climbers returning in SSB5, as I'd imagine that even if Smash goes the two-version route again, the next handheld will be able to handle them.) VinLAURiA (talk) 15:32, 23 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Oh, and consider that the SSB4 site only labels newcomers as such and doesn't actually use an explicit "veteran" label as the Dojo did, so technically, Doc in SSB4 has never been officially called a veteran. Maybe it'd be a third category altogether, such as veterans, newcomers, and returnees? [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]]VinLAURiA (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2014 (EDT)
 * LEt's see what tonight's show calls him. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:59, 23 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, turns out this just became more relevant quicker than I imagined. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]]VinLAURiA (talk) 22:25, 23 October 2014 (EDT)

Downloadable characters?
I think we should have some sort of way of differentiating downloadable characters besides just the note at the bottom, maybe coloring the slot yellow to match the eShop's theme. Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zm123bro (talk • contribs) 13:21, 24 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I changed the background color of 3DS/Wii U Mewtwo gold. (talk) PikaSamusSig.png 12:26, 24 October 2014 (EDT)

Should we acknowledge alts?
I'm not saying alts. HAVE to be on the list, but shouldn't we at least mention them in the "footnotes" at the bottom of the list? I'm just saying we could put a special "note" next to the Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and Robin stating that they can use male and female variants of themselves, and that Alph and the 7 Koopalings (Larry, Morton Jr., Wendy, Iggy, Roy, Lemmy, and Ludwig) are playable characters, but are only accessible via alternate "skins" of Captain Olimar and Bowser Jr., respectively. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smashkirby (talk • contribs) 21:34, 29 October 2014 (EDT)

DidYouKnowGaming video regarding "intended characters" for the Super Smash Bros. series
I'm not sure if information on this video should be added here. Just wanted to bring it to attention (The information regarding said "intended" characters starts at 1:30 into the video): SmashBrosFan (talk) 21:29, 3 November 2014 (EST)
 * I wouldn't call them a reliable source, per se. Try finding where DYKG originally got the info and then we'll see if it can go on the page or not. Rtzxy  Reflect.jpg  ''Reflect!!!  21:59, 3 November 2014 (EST)
 * Got 'em:   SmashBrosFan (talk) 06:00, 4 November 2014 (EST)

Mii Fighters intended for Brawl?
I think at some point in the Mii Fighter announcement video (or Nintendo Direct afterward), it was said by Sakurai that he wanted to integrate Miis into Brawl, but they ran out of time or something. Don't they warrant a mention as 'intended' for Brawl? Or are we to assume this was more like a passing thought? Banryu (talk) 22:57, 8 November 2014 (EST)
 * Sakurai stated that they were considered, but he said it didn't seem right at the time for them to be "punching and kicking". Being considered doesn't necessarily count as intended. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:33, 10 November 2014 (EST)

DLC
What if cut characters like Roy,Ice Climbers,young link and more came back to the latest version of smash?I want to know what you think!Edit and put your name not signed saying yes or no!Ill make a different section about the characters Final Smashes!

EnderNan 12:48, 6 December 2014 (EST)EnderNanEnderNan 12:48, 6 December 2014 (EST)
 * Read TALK; this is inappropriate usage of talk pages.  Rtzxy Reflect.jpg  Reflect!  12:52, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Kalos Pokemon League Stage Hazards
Should we include Ho-oh, Registeel, and Manaphy under the Non-playable Characters section, they play a similar role in SSBWiiU as Rayquaza does, all appearing rarely as stage hazards in the Kalos Pokemon League stage. If the only reason Rayquaza is listed is because of his Brawl appearence, then I understand. Zm123bro (talk) 12:37, 9 December 2014 (EST)

Well...
...what do we have here? Aidan the  Aura Master  19:24, 2 February 2015 (EST)
 * A good piece of information for Unlockable character. Miles ( talk)   19:46, 2 February 2015 (EST)
 * Roger that. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] Aidan the  Aura Master  19:47, 2 February 2015 (EST)

Navigation
Should we have a navigation system for the characters in order of how they appear on the selection screen, a la bulbapedia pokédex?  Littlesquirtle !  I choose you!  11:20, 4 February 2015 (EST)
 * I do support the idea, but I would like an explanation on how it would work, specifically. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] Aidan the  Aura Master  11:23, 4 February 2015 (EST)
 * on the top, there's a bar that has the page behind and before, an icon of the character, and a link to the pages of each character. That's not very well put, so you might want to look at one of the pages for a pokemon on bulbapedia, then look at the top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlesquirtle (talk • contribs) 11:31, February 4, 2015
 * ...I don't think that would be necessary, actually. I mean, I'm sure something similar to that could be applied, but we couldn't really organize a whole game's roster like that. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] Aidan the  Aura Master  11:40, 4 February 2015 (EST)
 * The thing to keep in mind is that each Pokémon has a set number in the Pokédex. That being said, there isn't really anything like that in the Smash games. We could change it up and get it to be sorted by universe and have a different one for each game's page (i.e., there would be a different one here than over here). But I think that would be basically all we could do. [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] Aidan the  Aura Master  11:43, 4 February 2015 (EST)

If you're talking about something like this navigation box, I guess I don't really see the need. That's mainly there on Bulbapedia due to the sheer number of Pokemon making a standard end-of-page nav template unwieldy. Is there something you think this would add that Template:SSB4Characters doesn't already accomplish? Miles ( talk)  11:53, 4 February 2015 (EST)
 * I forgot about that... Never mind, then.  Littlesquirtle !  I choose you! LittleSquirtleSig.png 12:03, 4 February 2015 (EST)

Mewtwo Head Icon
Could we change the Mewtwo head to better match his head from April Fools?Nintenzilla 16:21, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Villager dropped from Brawl
Because it was considered that he was dropped from brawl, I can't do references because I don't know how to put them here. Can someone help me? --Smugsamodas (talk) 11:31, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * There's a difference between intended and considered. Intended means that they were put in the game, but were removed for one reason or another (like Mewtwo in Brawl). Considered means that the idea came to Sakurai, but he turned it down (like Chrom in Smash 4). Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 11:42, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * If we were to set that as the criteria, we should remove all the "intended" notes for 64 and Melee, since there's no code-related remnants of any of them. Miles ( talk)   12:56, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * ...I kinda wanna disagree with that, but then that would be straight up hypocrisy; that said, I feel the references regarding what Sakurai has said about their inclusions should stay (meaning, for example, the statement regarding Sakurai wanting to replace Ness with Lucas would still stay). Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 14:55, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I'm still not a huge fan of all the "intended" notes in this table. That said, I wasn't trying to push for their removal in my previous statement; I just wanted to make clear the issues with using that specific set of criteria. Miles ( talk)   14:58, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I feel like they can stay if there's clear evidence that they were, in fact, intended for the game (such as Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario in Brawl). That said, I feel anything else that would normally fit under the "considered" definition should be removed (excluding Lucas in Melee and the Ice Climbers in Smash 4). Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 15:01, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

What about using a "considered" label in the table along with the current "intended" one? As in "we thought about including this character but decided against it" (Bowser/Mewtwo in SSB, Lucas in Melee, Villager in Brawl) as opposed to "we started working on the character but later dropped them, and there is proof of this" / "we wanted to include them but couldn't for whatever reason" (Mewtwo/Roy/Dr. Mario in Brawl, Ice Climbers in SSB4). Or would it be just an overcomplication? --Menshay (talk) 16:49, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Well that's the kind of ambiguity that makes the whole system of these notes a mess. There's the ones where we know there was coding in place (Dr. Mario/Roy/Mewtwo in Brawl, Ice Climbers in Wii U), the ones where Sakurai said they were "considered" but never implemented in any confirmable way in-game (Lucas in Melee, Miis in Brawl), and even more ambiguous cases (Dedede as a backup possibility in Melee that was passed over once the rights to Marth were obtained). Trying to cram details like this into a table of who is playable in what game seems overly complicated to me, especially given we already cover these details on the beta elements pages and the character pages in question... the latter of which are already linked in this table. Do we really need to tell them on this page? Miles ( talk)   16:56, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That, and if we do include a "considered" section, then there would be a ton of characters that shouldn't even be on this list. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 17:42, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That list is erroneous interpretation of this 1999 Japanese poll of characters voters wanted in the second Smash game, not anything planned. Miles ( talk)   17:46, 6 May 2015 (EDT)

Table colour legend
I think it would be better to just introduce a legend for the colours, instead of typing it out, but I don't know how. Could someone do it? – Smiddle 03:02, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I made this in ten minutes:
 * {| class="wikitable"

!Key
 * Starter
 * style="background-color:#dfdfdf;"|// Unlockable
 * style="background-color:#ffcfcf;"| Unlockable
 * style="background-color:#cfcfff;"| Unlockable
 * style="background-color:#ffffaf;"|Downloadable
 * }
 * Will that work? Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 21:01, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I think that works fine. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 06:50, 18 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I like it. Serpent King  ( talk ) 07:53, 18 July 2015 (EDT)

Separating Mii Fighters
The three Mii Fighters are separate characters. For example, Sakurai said in the latest direct, in reference to the non-DLC characters, there were 51 characters. And, each of the Mii Fighters have their own amiibo. I tried putting them in their own rows, but I was told to come here. 73.159.254.38 14:20, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * The Mii Fighters are one slot on the CSS. Case closed. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 14:21, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * So were Zelda/Sheik, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, and the Pokemon Trainer. 73.159.254.38 14:29, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I always considered them one. For the time being, I gotta vote for keeping em' the same. LittleMacmain97, a new kind of noob. (talk) 14:36, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * One slot, and I gotta say. I am kinda hating the Mii Fighters for making everything so confusing here -_- Serpent King  ( talk ) 21:06, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Why does having only one slot dictate who is a separate character? Before SSB4, Sheik and Zelda shared a slot, and Zero Suit Samus didn't even have one. Neither did Squirtle and Ivysaur, and unlike Charizard, they still haven't gotten their own. It's honestly not hard: The Mii Fighters all have their own custom moves, and in their original trailer, Sakurai said, very clearly, each one is their own separate fighter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1K-WqQYw7w skip to around 4:16). 73.159.254.38 11:48, 1 July 2015 (EDT)

I vote separate. It doesn't matter that they have the same slot on the CSS, they're still separate characters  73MPL4R  Only the dead have seen the end of war  11:57, 1 July 2015 (EDT)

I hope this discussion doesn't end without a formal consensus. 73.159.254.38 13:55, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Separate ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 13:57, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Leave as is. The Miis' different classes are already linked from that cell of the table, and it doesn't cause undue stretching or anything. Furthermore, the CSS and official site treat them as one "character" with three sub-characters, so to speak (and unlike Pokemon Trainer, none of them went on to be playable without that grouping). Miles ( talk)   14:04, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Shouldn't Sakurai's word take precedence over that though? 73.159.254.38 14:15, 4 July 2015 (EDT)


 * After reading all this, I'll change my vote. Sakurai did say that they are three chracters. Seperate. LittleMacmain97, the World Circuit is mine! (Talk) 14:37, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * They are separate characters in some contexts (i.e. they have separate movesets, trophies, etc.) but they are grouped together 100% of the time and also share their CSS slot and official site page/artwork. I remain opposed. Miles ( talk)   15:17, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I remain opposed as well. Serpent King  ( talk ) 00:49, 5 July 2015 (EDT)

(reset indent) Support. As far as I know, they're only regarded as one character on the website (which is essentially marketing), their slot (which we've concluded is irrelevant), and their congratulations screens (extremely minor). Nyargle blargle (Talk) 09:30, 5 July 2015 (EDT)
 * So, by my count, it's 4-3 in favor of separating. Is there anyone else that needs to vote? 73.159.254.38 15:55, 8 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Just in case you didn't count my vote, I'm in favor of leaving it as it is. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 16:00, 8 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I did. It's still three for Leave as is (Aidan, Serpent King, and Miles) and four for Separate (73MPL4R, Nutta, Nyargleblargle, and LittleMacmain97 after he changed his vote). 73.159.254.38 19:51, 8 July 2015 (EDT)
 * 3-4 is hardly a consensus. Serpent King  ( talk ) 21:13, 8 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Then how can we reach a consensus? 73.159.254.38 11:57, 9 July 2015 (EDT)

(reset indent) Please don't let this end without a final answer. 73.159.254.38 13:19, 17 July 2015 (EDT)


 * I really don't know how we could reach a consesus. It's in favor of seperating now. If anyone else needs to vote, now would be the time. LittleMacmain97, the World Circuit is mine! (Talk) 14:28, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I support separating them. They are different characters in almost every possible way. Chuck  Norris  24.png  15:43, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I still oppose, per Miles. They are together on the CSS. They are counted singular even on the reveal site, where as Sheik and ZSS are not. (this applied to Brawl and the DOJO too...) Serpent King  ( talk ) 16:13, 17 July 2015 (EDT)
 * To be fair, the Smash 4 website was far less in-depth than the DOJO!!!, and as I said earlier, it seems to be mostly marketing. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 17:18, 17 July 2015 (EDT)

Well, know the vote is 5-3. Is that enough? 73.159.254.38 22:50, 21 July 2015 (EDT)
 * 6-3 including you, so go ahead. We've been discussing for three weeks and I'd say two-thirds is enough to count as a consensus. Nyargle blargle (Talk) 10:07, 24 July 2015 (EDT)

Dedede in Melee
I don't remember where I read/heard this from, but I remember something saying that King Dedede was to be included in Melee if Sakurai couldn't get the rights to use the Fire Emblem characters in the game. After the interview, he jokingly states that he probably could've added him in anyway. He also stated that he would've added Leif instead of Roy, but IS showed them a prototype of Binding Blade and he was interested. Would this be worth putting somewhere? And if someone could actually find the interview, that'd be even better! (Alex95 (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2015 (EDT)) EDIT: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37915502&postcount=7506 <I think I found it...
 * This neogaf post and its claims have been removed for lack of a reliable source. Miles ( talk)   20:30, 16 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Also worth note that the user was banned. Serpent King  ( talk ) 20:31, 16 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Haha, okay. Didn't see that... It does seem to have come from an old Famitsu catalog, though. Would that be worth looking into? (Alex95 (talk) 13:55, 17 July 2015 (EDT))
 * Probably not. We do know that Sakurai did not want to over represent the Kirby universe in Melee as Kirby is his creation, so I find it very unlikely that Dedede was ever considered. Besides, Meta Knight would have been considered first. Serpent King  ( talk ) 14:22, 17 July 2015 (EDT)

Other considered characters
I think characters like Dixie Kong, and other characters planned but never made it in, should get a mention on this page, either a section under the main list, or a list in the note section. A list if all of them, including one's like Chrom, who were only planned, is here: http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/04/13/the-definitive-unused-fighters-list-in-smash/.
 * This is just for characters that have already been in Smash and where they were planned. I think what you're looking for are the Beta elements pages. Also, sign your comments with four tildes like this: ~ Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  21:09, 22 December 2015 (EST)

What's wrong with a Flying Mii costume, you ask?
It's irrelevant; all the costume does is give the Mii a different hat. They're 2 completely different things. And just because someone wears a Pikachu costume doesn't make them Pikachu. Unowninator (talk) 01:38, 25 February 2016 (EST)


 * Define irrevelant. What's wrong with giving a side note? Of course they're two different things. And duh. What's the problem? MuteSpittah (talk) 01:40, 25 February 2016 (EST)

The problem is that it just doesn't fit here, it's a pointless statement to bring up, IMO. Unowninator (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2016 (EST)


 * Why doesn't it fit? Why is it pointless? I think it's useful and cool to point out for those looking that it's not just an enemy on a stage, but also has a costume based off of it. MuteSpittah (talk) 01:45, 25 February 2016 (EST)

Because they're 2 completely different characters, and I just don't find it interesting. I just don't know how to explain it better. Unowninator (talk) 01:48, 25 February 2016 (EST)

Characters that are NPC (assists, Pokémon, entities) but have costumes for the Miis that are mostly based on them is relevant. Laborious to track down, but relevant. -- BeepYou, a user with no grammar at all :v (talk)''' 01:58, 25 February 2016 (EST)

Go Beep yourself. (lol just kidding; I'm not mad at all) Well, I still disagree, but it looks like I'm outnumbered, so I'm done here. Thanks for your opinion BeepYou. Unowninator (talk) 02:40, 25 February 2016 (EST)
 * Wot :v --BeepYouSignature.png BeepYou, a user with no grammar at all :v (talk)''' 02:46, 25 February 2016 (EST)

Corrin is a non-native character
Under trivia the first item is that Roy is the only "non-native" character appearing in smash bros before a game from their respective series. With the inclusion of Corrin, I think (s)he should be added to that trivia. 69.130.243.119 19:06, 28 February 2016 (EST)
 * Fates released in Japan before he was even announced for Smash. Roy, on the other hand, didn't get his game for a little while longer. Bacon  Master BaconMasterSig.png 19:10, 28 February 2016 (EST)

I do believe that this can be made as a point. While it's true that Fates was out in Japan well before the DLC was, I still firmly believe that the addition of Corrin in Smash was a means of cross-promotion for Fates, at least for Western audiences - the basis of this being that every release outside of Japan was after the DLC's release. While nothing is proven, the evidence strongly suggests that Corrin was being used to bring Fire Emblem back to popularity in the West. Black Vulpine of the Furry Nation. Furries make the Internets go! :3 09:09, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
 * This may well be the case, but the way you edited the trivia point, it asserted that Corrin "debuted" in Smash, which isn't a true statement - not unless you also want to throw Marth and Lucas into that boat. And I don't think the promotion aspect alone is much of a basis for a trivia point on this page. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]]  Zyrac ( talk • contribs ) 09:20, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

Corrin fact error
According to this fact: However, with its current wording, the same is true of Marth. --73.109.10.209 04:17, 23 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Similarly, Corrin is the only character who has made an international debut in a Super Smash Bros. game, but had previously made a debut in their origin game in Japan.

Deletion
Basically what I said in the template. Every bit of information on this page is or could be covered somewhere else except the definition of newcomer and veteran, which could easily be given its own (admittedly stubby, but is a stubby article really worse than a redundant article?) article. This could easily just redirect to the characters section on SSB (series), which could have its own link to the NPC page. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:33, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Hard oppose; this is in analogue to Stage, Item, etc. as our "character" landing page. Absolutely should not be deleted. Miles ( talk)  18:00, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Oppose per Miles. Also I use this page from time to time. Alex Parpotta (talk) 18:07, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Oppose We need to expand upon general topic articles linked on the main page nav in my opinion, deleting them is the last thing I would want to see. Rob Sir    zx  18:53, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Oppose A page standard across nearly every wiki which covers a work with characters, we should not be an exception. Searingjet (talk) 19:28, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

You expect me to take this seriously? Worst suggestion I have ever seen, without a doubt. There is no reason that a page, especially one in our side bar, should ever be considered for deletion. It serves as a clean list which characters who are featured in each game and which ones aren't. I also highly disagree that the list on Super Smash Bros. (series) is easier to read than this, and further, that's not what the page is specifically for, as this one is. So no Strongest of opposes.  Serpent   King  19:50, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Oppose. The page could be repurposed a bit to discuss the concept itself more heavily, but deleting the page for a core element of the Smash series is a bad idea to me, plain and simple. Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 20:17, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Oppose per everyone else. And also bias reasons because this is one of my favorite pages. Disaster Flare   (talk)  20:20, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Consistency with SSB Switch
This page lists Bowser, DK, and Samus as confirmed for SSB Switch. The game page doesn't - it mentions them as visible, but stops short of calling them confirmed. Which one is right? It doesn't seem sensible to have the two disagree like this. --Keiya (talk) 16:07, 9 April 2018 (EDT)
 * For the record, if you posted this same thing already once, you don't have to do it twice. Aidan,  the Rurouni  22:19, 9 April 2018 (EDT)