Forum:New Tier List

SSBM tier list
This is the ninth and last Smash Back Room Super Smash Bros. Melee NTSC tier list. It is current as of 14 October 2008.

Smash Back Room released its latest tier list. Discuss! – Masked! ^_^ 18:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm surpised that Falco dropped to 4th. I still say Ganondorf should be high tier rather than mid.--Richardtalk 19:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Falco was the biggest for me as well. Marth went up to second, though!   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 22:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Weegee and DK moved up to middle. I always knew they had potential for it. And Captain Falcon is finally on high tier. And Mewtwo is not the worst anymore. Hurray! I was surprised how the Ice Climbers made it to high. Xeze (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

So lemme get this straight, a new forum section was added to the forums, just so these simple facts could be posted >:| ...... AAAAWESSOOOOME :D!!! Now I have even MORE places to post glitches, although idk if ALL of the glitches are ALREADY posted :(..... great, I just made a fool of myself... but NICE NEWS THOUGH :DDDDDD!!! YAY MARTH!!!TheLegendTamer (talk) 16:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Two questions come to mind:


 * Why did Jiggs move up?
 * Why DIDN'T Peach move down?

GalaxiaD (talk) 22:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Jiggs has the only WoP in melee, save the FoP of kirby. Peach is in the mid-tier in Brawl, how do you think she fares in melee, she has changed very little since melee and had less rivals in melee. TheLegendTamer (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Peach got some epic nerfs. --Shadowcrest  20:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

GalaxiaD, This is melee, not brawl. Peach can chaingrab space animals to a very high percentage and her down smash is arguably the most feared of ALL smashes because of it's priority, duration, knockback, and damaging potential, and guess what happens when you crouch cancel against her down smash? You get at least 70% damage right off the bat. Also her turnips leads great mindgames. I don't know what you have against Peach but Peach better than you think. Don't believe me? Go on youtube and check fantastic Peach players like Wife.

For Jiggs, Rest almost always K.O. Space Animal Slayer is just ridiculous, has WoP, has crazy edgeguarding potential, and has a lot priority.

Next time GalaxiaD, Know the characters potential before talking trash about them, and if you don't like the tier list, GO TO SWF AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE TIER LIST THERE. Chaos F15 (talk) 15:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking trash, I just asked why she didn't move down. And I actually am a member of SWF, but they kept ignoring me, so I stopped going there. - GalaxiaD (talk) 19:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No offense GXD, but quite frankly, I don't think they care if ONE PERSON COMPLAINS. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 19:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, just complaining on the forums is the wrong way to go about it. If you really think that a character is too low, go win some tourneys with him/her. If you think s/he is too high, keep beating him/her in tournaments. Results get noticed much more than complaints. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 20:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah !!! Marth is the best with Fox !!! I'm very happy ! Metalink187 (talk) 10:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I'm really surprised that Marth is #2 now, that makes me happy. I'm also happy that Pichu is now at the bottom of the tier list, although I didn't expect Mewtwo to move two spots up. I expected him to be 2nd to last. XD -ACDCGAMER (talk) 23:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

A lot of people love Mewtwo, I guess. - GalaxiaD (talk) 21:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Woohoo, Samus is da best. Top of middle tier. --Zidane-Tribal (talk) 18:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised that Pichu was deemed worse than Kirby. Go figure. Ack-Tar (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Doc 4 GOD TIER!!!

I believe that Dr. Mario should be God Tier because he can pwn Foxes just like Marth. Dr. Mario also has good chain throws and combo abilitys. Dr. Mario is also very strong with the fist and he even has a good defense move (the super sheet). Now I know that he probably has the worst recovery but Marth has pretty bad horizontal recovery and he can still be good and also that's Dr. Mario's only weak spot. Doc King (The King of Docs)

I think there should be a new tier list because I've discovered a few things like the Boost Grab and some new combos that could work well in tourney play. Plus I just don't like the list. I mean come on Peach above Falcon, that's like comparing Chuck Norris with Brittney Spears in Marshall arts and plus more legends play as Falcon like Isai and Silentspectre and I see Falcon as a terrific character that can do things and Peach is bacically a Down Smash spammer. Plus, Falcon has a big roll in the Wombo Combo, dat is auto win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doc King (talk) 17:02, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

I completely disagree with this. Fox and Falco suck. They are too light. Bowser and Kirby should be WAY higher. Same with Yoshi. And Pikachu should be higher. I rock with him/her/it!!! And Peach is great. Maybe the best. And yeah Jigglypuff should be middle or low tier. Mintstarr (Talk 15:42, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool troll, bro. Do it again and you win a prize.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:53, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Come on man, Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Doc are way better than Peach, boozer, yoshi, kirby and pika! I mean come on, Peach is slow and weak and she's light too. Fox and Falco can pull off so much stuff, it's not even funny! Also watch this while your at it!Doc King (talk) 20:15, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't feed the trolls. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:31, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * But it's true! Doc King (talk) 18:06, July 18, 2010 (UTC) --User was warned for this post.

Why Peach and Jiggs didn't move down
They may be feminine, but they are still very good characters. Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just DIE!!! ) 18:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Meh. - GalaxiaD (talk) 21:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The real question is why Peach and Jiggs SHOULD be moved down? I don't see any reasons, so someone give me one (and a good one). Chaos F15 (talk) 02:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Jiggs does have good air speed and a great edgeguarding game, but her ground game is horrible. Weak attacks (except for Rest), slow dash speed, very short range, and her floatiness make her easy to kill at low percentages. Unless you can make the battle purely air-based, you're gonna get mauled on the ground (unless you can grab a Spacie). And as for Peach, her only kill moves are F-Air and F-Throw. D-Smash can rack up a lot of damage and has good range and priority, but I've never seen it kill. And, much like Jiggs, she has a great air game but a bad ground game. She runs slow, has more weak attacks than strong ones, and despite having a great horizontal recovery, you're screwed if you get spiked. That's my reasoning for deeming them bad. - GalaxiaD (talk) 20:23, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * We've known about that for years now, though. If Peach and Jigglypuff should move anywhere, it's because of a change in the meta-game, or perhaps a change in the way we interpret the meta-game. I suspect Mang0 has more to do with Jigglypuff's upward movement than the abstract factors of Jigglypuff's air game. MaskedMarth (talk) 23:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree on those but SHFFL' completely helps out their weak ground game. Weak attacks=easy combo. Jiggs air speed and Peach's Float replaced their slow dash (Peach sometimes don't even need a approach if she's fighting someone with no projectiles like Ganon). Spikes are only deadly offstage and at high %.  Also, Jiggs has forward smash, down-smash and WoP to kill off stage, while Peach has nair added to her arsenal.

Trust me, the Pros outweigh the cons for both Peach and Jiggs in a long run. Chaos F15 (talk) 00:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you say so. - GalaxiaD (talk) 02:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen Peach's turnip attack? That attack is Da Bomb! Para Goomba 348 (C'mon, just DIE!!! ) 17:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a rare occurence. - GalaxiaD (talk) 19:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I think thatt you're just biased about those particular characters. I've noticed in all your tier list, they are positioned at the bottom of each list. Considering you have never been in a tournament, it makes no sense for you to have ANY opinion on tiers since that is what a tier list is based on. You're pathetic. - Anon.

Excuse me? I believe I'm entitled to my opinion, troll. We live in a country called "America", where we're free to say what we feel. IMO, I believe Jiggs and Peach are not that good. No list of tourney placings is going to sway my view on that. From what I've experienced and seen, Peach and Jiggs seem rather weak. If you think differently, fine, but it gives you no right to personally attack me. Do it again, and I'll report you to an admin. Got it, chief? -  GalaxiaD  Talk 23:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe my "attack" was personal and for that matter, even an attack. It makes no sense how tournament rankings don't affect your compliation of a tier list. Hello, tournament rankings are the epitome of a tier list. If you don't incorporate them in your list, then don't call it a tier list. Call it a popularity contest or anything BUT a tier list. Peach has many different ways to counter a spike. Myself and many peach mainers easily counter a spike with her toad counter followed by a secondary jump and a each bomber; Up B. AS far as weak attacks go, being able to auto float and use 15%+ dmg arials on the ground is FAR from weak. Floating is what makes peach a formidable opponent. NO one comes as close as peach when it comes to edge guarding. Her turnips also allow for GREAT lead-ins and the chances of pulling a stichface turnip or various items increase her versatility. I have participated in tourneys in San Diego with a first place finish and often second place as well. I wouldn't be able to if peach was the "lousy character" You made her out to be. I'd be GLAD to play you online with no hesitation. Try looking at some great peach players such as wife, Xif, and Michael. Or even the infamous crouching peach and hidden stichface combo video on youtube. -Anon

Yes, I know there are good Peach players. I've seen the vids. But there are also good Bowser players, and he's bottom tier. It's possible to be good with a character that's bad. Why tourney rankings not swaying me confuses you, I may never know, but I've never trusted the tourney rankings. Just something personal, I guess. But hey, that's just me. If you wanna trust the tourney rankings, knock yourself out. And as far as the "attack" goes, it IS an attack. You called me pathetic, which is an insult. From now on, don't criticize my opinions and we won't have any problems. And as far as brawling goes, just name the time and place, pal. All I need is your FC. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 05:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see how any of this discussion addresses the point of whether Peach or Jiggly should have "moved down". If you're going to argue that case, you have to demonstrate a change in their metagame (or in the metagame of all the other characters, e.g. if most characters are advancing but Peach and Jiggly are stagnating) since the last tier list. It's insufficient just to argue their qualities.


 * If you're want to say Peach and Jiggly should not be so high to begin with, well, it's hard to argue the empirical evidence. Both characters are doing very well in tournaments. Jigglypuff in particular seems to be the only character able to beat Mew2King these days.


 * Also, please, no personal attacks from anyone. MaskedMarth (talk) 18:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Understood. -  GalaxiaD <font face="times new roman"> Talk 22:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Jigglypuff moved up due to Mango beating M2K. M2K is the best smasher and he uses Marth. Most falco's are not doing well besides DSW. Other top falco's play brawl besides PC but he uses Fox now. Many fox users still play melee and fox's placement can't be changed just because he is THAT good. If anything, I was surprised that Marth isn't actual top and just tied. Peach went down because there hasn't been a good peach player recently besides Cort and Wife. I haven't seen that many Wife matches and Cort now plays brawl (He teams with M2K and uses Snake). This is not to mention recent Ken Melee matches. User:KoRoBeNiKi


 * Let's get one thing straight though, Peach did not move down, KoRoBeNiKi. She stayed fifth in this and the previous tier list. Chaos F15 (talk) 03:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

We are all pretty sure that jiggs moved up just because of mango (and king, I'd say). I honestly think that peach should have moved down, mainly because every other character's metagame was improving while people like cort were using space animals and marth. Also, wife and vidjo don't play smash anymore (at least to my knowledge). Peach didn't get worst, everone else just got better. Peach should be bottom of middle tier. Also, just because peach counters falco (and in a way fox) doesn't mean she can be moved up. I've heard that reasoning from some people on SWF, but doc can 0-50 u-throw spacies, that doesn't mean they should be better. And y.link should be high tier. =)  --God! on SWF

Peach and jiggz are very overrated. I think they should be replaced with Doc and Mewtwo because they are better with combos and even power (except foe jiggz rest). Peach and jiggz for bottom tier!

"Last Tier List?"
With the way Brawl is going, I can't really see this being the last one. But right... Mewtwo is no longer the worst, Marth is at a tie for 1st, (At least that's what I choose to believe :P) Falco dropped two places... hmmm... everything else seems to be right... From Shadowball3. 1:15 P.M. November 1st.

God Smash Back Room, you put the OMG in OMG! YOU SUCK, MY LITTLE BROTHER LOVES KIRBY & HE'S SECOND TO THE BOTTOM NOW! FREAK YOU!
 * your little bro ain't important, I main Mewtwo, im not complaining. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're going to talk smack about SBR, why don't you sign your username so you don't just look like an angry troll?Bek The Conqueror (talk) 22:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

i wish they would keep making tiers for all games some characters may end up higher like the most fun character in my opinion though some are still funny compared to him how come they did'nt care about his recovery and also he does'nt have the strongest up throw ness has a stronger up throw unfortionatly i can't play melee or brawl i don't have the original and i don't have a gamecube and my wii won't read ANY disk. and why am i writing this this is completly off topic.

Wow...
I thought they stopped making Melee Tier Lists. Abot the list... I can easily see Marth tied at Top, as well as Pichu on bottom, but one thing. Weegee should be higher! I used to be a Weegee mainer (in Melee and Brawl) so I know all about how his long slide can be used besides a insanely long wavedash. Weegee needs to be at least a little higher. - Luca3 (talk) 00:11, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Come on!
Why do we even bother with these useless tiers? I like the spirit of competition, but these tiers ruin it. You know what me and a lot of other people would agree on? That tiers are for queers. No offense, but I just can't stand the thought of tiers anymore. Good day Lollion9 (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers72.79.82.84 02:53, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone needs to post that link on the Brawl Smashboards. Reaction would be hilarious. - Hatake91 (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be interesting. - <font face="times new roman"> GalaxiaD <font face="times new roman"> Y29 is Coming! 21:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Will do.72.79.106.107 18:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I just think that tiers 4 r queers because all of the women (except for Zelda) are in higher tiers when Mewtwo, Doc, Roy, and Link should be high tier. Doc King (talk) 17:14, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dude, you can be banned for saying that. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:44, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * How? He's not insulting users.--Megatron1 (talk) 18:49, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I thought saying TR4Q could get you banned, because of it's offensiveness. Mr. Anon (talk) 18:51, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but this is just a forum so you can say or post whatever you want but you have to sign your comments. Doc King (talk) 23:11, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

tiers should not exist
tiers are the most retarded thing that i have ever heard of there is no such thing as some character being better than another it all has to do with how you play the game all a tier list is as and opinion there is no such thing as a real tier list opinion is not fact deal with it

Everyone knows though that they are opinion and mostly just for statistical reasons. If you can beat everybody with a crappy character then that is good but these are just for stats reasons. MOST characters can be utilized well. I use Captain Falcon but he isn't all that high on the melee tiers. I never played Brawl but he is on the bottom and that confuses me but then again I have never played Brawl.--BigCubby (talk) 15:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, let me direct you to this link which should address any factual or normative arguments you may have about tiers. Second of all, C. Falcon is VERY high on the Melee tier list, i.e. tied with J-puff for 6th. He is rock bottom on the Brawl tiers because SHFFLing is gone, thus taking out many of the things C. Falcon could do, his moves al have really low priority and don't do much damage, and the famed Knee of Justice has been nerfed beyond recognition. JSYK and have a good day.-- Bek  (talk)  17:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

while I personally dont mind the existence of tiers as much as I used to, one thing I do dislike is the creation of new tiers. this is only applying to brawl really, but this is a perfect example for the argument. Why are vSnake and Meta Knight ranked in their own seperate Tiers? to outsiders, it send the wrong message that they are so powerful tthat they broke through the top of the teir list and are practically gods. also the rumors about Meta Knight being banned in tournaments didn't help, either. why not have them ranked as other characters?

An answer to your your anonymous comment. Metaknight has better matchups than Snake. But, Snake has a lot of matchups really good as well compared to the lower tiers. The main difference is that Metaknight has 0 even matchups outside of Diddy on FD and maybe vs Snake. However, Snake has some disadvantaged matchups, such as vs Falco and vs King D3. Furthermore, Snake also has stages where he gets gimped rather easily, such as rainbow cruise and Frigate Orpheon. Metaknight has basically 0 bad stages, as Metaknight is that good on the ground. Snake doesn't have nearly as good an aerial momentum to allow him to kill as freely as MK. MK is the only character in brawl outside of ice climbers and certain odd matchups, that can 0 to death in brawl just due to his gimps, such as with his down air and n-air off the stage. If snake had a better recovery and an inescapable n-air, I would see them in the same tier. As long as Snake has a weakness unlike MK, their tiers will be separated --KoRo TeH BeAr 23:59, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * You realize those are both stages you mentioned are counter-picks? Also, I personally think no character is so good and unbalanced to have their own tier. That's just begging for people to see how they're so good, develop more strageties, and get it to the point where no one really cares about the other characters. That just really ruins the game...D:< HavocReaper48 (talk) 00:32, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * What I personally meant with the snake weakness is that snake has stages that he can be countered to by virtually everyone unlike Metaknight. Metaknight's worst stage is usually whatever the counter is, for example if he is facing Snake his worst stage is Haliberd. Or vs Diddy its FD. Snake has overall more stages to be countered to, as Snake can't keep up with MK's platform game. MK has already been exploited to his highest strengths. It actually Helps vs other characters as everyone else is learning how to face this character. Its like how I personally struggle vs the good people of the middle tiers rather than M2K using Metaknight more as the matchup isn't as known.

Tie Breaker?
I'm curious. when was the Cap/Jiggs tie broken? User:Fawfulmk-II August 31, 2009.

If I had to decide on the tie, I would go with Falcon for 6th place and jiggz for 7th because of his strong moves, fast speed, moonwalking, and of course, THE KNEE! Also more legends play him like isai and silentspectre. (64.252.134.129 20:45, May 17, 2010 (UTC)) aka Doc King

Master hand
If he was on the tier list, he would be number one. Since he can't be KOed, all he needs to do is KO his opponent once and he wins the match. On most small stages such as Mute City, he's unstopable. In doubles matches he would do even better, as his opponents would be forced to stay on one side of the stage. All his moves can KO. Thoughts? 98.117.158.220 06:01, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

He would lose to camping :D --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 17:08, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, he would still be below the fish. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:18, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * He's in brawl. MH is in melee. Good video, though. 98.117.158.220 03:32, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * (This comment's purpose is only to test my improved signature.) <font face="Eurostile" size="3"> BNK  [ T 04:01, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't do shit like this. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 04:05, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Fox #1? I think not!
I personally think Marth should be #1. Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 22:40, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why?--Megatron1 (talk) 22:41, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mainly personal preference. I just do not like Fox's fighting style as much as Marth's. Also, Fox is too easily KO'ed do to his light weight and fast falling speed. Marth is heavier, and falls a bit slower. Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 02:09, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I do agree that Fox has a bunch of weaknesses and pretty much only 1 strength (speed). I think either Falcon or Sheik should be #1 for everybody because they're balanced and they're really strong and really fast. Doc King (talk) 21:47, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you mean Falco or Captain Falcon? Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 22:26, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, but Falco is pretty good too, could be 2nd place or something. Doc King (talk) 21:42, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Captian Falcon was one of my favorites in Melee, and so was Falco. Fox is good, but not worthy of being #1. I need to make my own tier list. Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 21:48, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you could just make one on your user page like I did to mine. Doc King (talk) 23:41, June 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's what I was planning on doing. I just need to finish testing all of the characters. Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 00:18, June 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, ok. Tell me when you're done because I would like to compare yours to mine. Doc King (talk) 18:33, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Mewtwo
I don't see what's so bad about him. He has very good KO moves, an excellent recovery and double jump, pretty good projectiles. Mr. Anon (talk) 23:25, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mewtwo's critical problem is his disproportional weight. Despite being one of the largest characters in the game, he is one of the lightest, being lighter than even the princesses, Ice Climbers, and Young Link (despite weighing 269 pounds in the Pokemon games). The result, he is vulnerable to combos and very easily KOd. As for his KO moves, they're not very good. The f-smash may do 20% when sweetspotted, but is one of the weaker f-smashes. His d-smash has short reach, strikes one side, and has slow start-up. The u-smash is rather weak and is quite escapable. His u-throw's power is based mostly on falling speed and therefore it has trouble KOing the fast fallers. The b-throw is much more effective on the edge. His dair has average power only for a meteor and is difficult to land while his fair has horrible reach. In the end, Mewtwo is a rather slow character who is very easy to kill, while he has difficulty getting KOs and racking up damage. His recovery may be amazing, but it doesn't help too much when you're KOd so easily. Omega Tyrant [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 00:09, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mewtwo is good in the hands of the right person (what character isn't?) but the reasons above are why he's lowed. Not everyone can use him like a pro you know. I used him and I'm good with him.--Megatron1 (talk) 00:14, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * About KO moves, Mewtwo does have his back throw, which is pretty powerful, but I see your point about why he's low now. Mr. Anon (talk) 01:25, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, wouldn't the fact that he's floaty and lightweighted make him pretty hard to combo and the fact that he has really good range? Doc King (talk) 21:41, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You would think so, but you're forgetting the important fact that he's one of the largest characters in the game (only Bowser, DK, and Ganondorf have a larger hurtbox). Being so large makes you vulnerable to combos. Also, his reach is good, but not very good. Omega Tyrant [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 21:46, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Omega Tyrant. Also, he jumps high and falls extremely slowly, which is good for recovering, but this makes him vulnerable in the air and susceptible to edge-guarding. Dr. Pain 99 (talk) 21:55, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, Mewtwo is one of the lighest characters in the game and he has teleporting moves that envolve a lot of mindgames. Mewtwo is not useless you know. Doc King (talk) 22:12, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, nobody said he was useless. Also, him being so light is a bad thing. Mewtwo certainly has some very good things about him (two KO throws, including the only KO u-throw and his amazing recovery) but he has so many major flaws that what is bad about him heavily outweigh what is good about him. Omega Tyrant [[Image: TyranitarMS.png | 25px]] 22:35, June 11, 2010 (UTC)