Talk:Birdo

Gender
Birdo's gender is clearly female. Regardless of whether she's still canonically trans or if she's been retconned to be born female, there is no source that says she is not female except for Brawl's trophy. TheNuttyOne 18:14, 20 May 2018 (EDT) He thinks he is a girl and spits eggs from his mouth. He'd rather be called "birdetta."
 * I rest my case. Aidan,  the College-Bound Rurouni  19:07, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Yep, that's what would be called "transgender". In some websites, you can be verbally assaulted and/or banned for hate speech if you assert that that doesn't count.
 * But even if we for some reason decide to adopt a transphobic stance, that's a 30+-year-old statement and, with very few exceptions, every game since has consistently depicted her as female. She is considered a "woman of racing" in Mario Kart 8. In Captain Rainbow, she is proven to be female despite her appearance and voice. In her Mario Party 8 character bio, she is referred to with female pronouns. Popple (somewhat reluctantly, but still) calls her a "dame" in Superstar Saga and its remake. She's a "her" in her Mario Kart Wii trading card info. Heck, even Melee uses female pronouns despite Brawl's claims otherwise. And honestly, it wouldn't be the first piece of conflicting information in a Brawl trophy. TheNuttyOne 19:24, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Problem is, it's that very conflicting information that prevents us from doing anything. Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  20:09, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
 * To be fair, Nintendo changes their stances on subjects all the time. Two notable examples come to mind: Sheik's gender in Zelda and what Mario games are considered mainstream. A nearly 30 year old mention in an instruction manual shouldn't have as much influence as several other instances where Birdo is called a female. The Brawl trophy doesn't really matter either as Smash trophies are known to have erroneous descriptions and don't reflect the original devs thoughts anyways. Also, if we're to remain consistent with other wikis, then by default we should be officially calling her a female, as the Mario Wiki does. Pokebub (talk)
 * Even most of the games that call her male state that she would rather be called female. Brawl is the only game I'm aware of that ever indicates her gender is debatable. TheNuttyOne 22:20, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
 * As far as I'm concerned, we're nowhere close to having a clear answer from Nintendo, and since speculation is not permitted on the wiki, that means we must leave Birdo's gender as unknown for the time being.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  03:23, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Except we do have a clear answer from Nintendo. SMB2 and Brawl were literally the only 2 games with mentions of Birdo being male. Every other game featuring Birdo classifies her as female. Pokebub (talk) 03:34, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
 * And many other games use neutral terms (such as SSB4, which avoids gender pronouns for it).  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  05:48, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
 * It's not the only trophy in Smash 4 not to use pronouns. Sheik's alt. trophy doesn't, nor does Ciela's or Malladus's, even though all three have clearly defined genders otherwise (okay, Sheik isn't the best example, but her normal trophy clearly uses feminine pronouns). We don't know why they didn't use a pronoun, so we can't use that as evidence. Lack of pronouns doesn't mean non-defined gender.
 * What "many other games" use gender neutral terms? I would think they would be listed in MarioWiki's "Gender" section, but Brawl is the only one there. TheNuttyOne 13:32, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Again, if we're to remain consistent with the MarioWiki, then we should automatically go with female. Pokebub (talk) 16:24, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

So the current count:

FEMALE:
 * 1) Mario Kart 8/Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
 * 2) Captain Rainbow
 * 3) Mario Party 8
 * 4) Superstar Saga/Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions
 * 5) Mario Kart Wii
 * 6) Melee
 * 7) Mario Superstar Baseball
 * 8) Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
 * 9) Super Mario Advance

MALE-TO-FEMALE TRANSGENDER:
 * 1) Super Mario Bros. 2
 * 2) Wario's Woods

NO PRONOUNS SPECIFIED:
 * 1) Smash 4
 * 2) Mario Party 9
 * 3) Mario Party 7
 * 4) Mario Super Sluggers

GENDERLESS/UNDETERMINABLE GENDER:
 * 1) Brawl

...This seems pretty straightforward to me. TheNuttyOne 12:21, 22 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Would anyone else like to share/defend a counter-argument? TheNuttyOne 13:47, 24 May 2018 (EDT)
 * So am I safe to make the change, then? TheNuttyOne 16:47, 27 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Tell ya what pal, how about you have a quick read of CONSENSUS and see if that answers your question.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  16:49, 27 May 2018 (EDT)
 * All counter-arguments have gone refuted and undefended. When I asked for someone to defend the counter-argument, no one spoke up. If you would like to defend or refute, please proceed.
 * To be honest, I had no intention on making the change, but I also have no intention of letting the discussion die because everyone's run out of arguments.
 * Also, watch the sarcasm. If we're bringing snarky statements into the debate, I guarantee I will outdo you. TheNuttyOne 16:56, 27 May 2018 (EDT)
 * Alright, first off, both of you take it easy before someone starts resorting to full-on personal attacks, it's starting to get a bit passive-aggressive in here. Second, I full-on oppose this change for the very reason that there is a lot of conflicting information across all of Birdo's appearances and the data across MarioWiki. Resorting to counting majority instances across the articles Birdo appears in does NOT solve this problem, and comes close to being ass-backwards logic. Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  19:54, 27 May 2018 (EDT)
 * ...I feel like your "ass-backwards" comment is strongly conflicting with your first sentence.
 * Also, you say there is a "lot of conflicting information", but no one has actually cited the supposed "multiple" games with conflicting information. The only game I'm aware of that conflicts is Brawl, and with 15 other games that don't conflict (lack of pronouns still means nothing and I'm sure that if I did more research than this conversation is worth, I could find instances in most of the games that don't use pronouns where they are used) and a track record of falsehoods (Kaptain K. Rool, anyone?), that's more likely to be an error than an actual conflict of information. Every other game calls her female or male-to-female transgender. Honestly, MarioWiki is usually 10x pickier than us so I fail to understand how this is good enough for them to call her female but not good enough for us. TheNuttyOne 21:50, 27 May 2018 (EDT)
 * So, if we all can't come to agree (despite clear evidence for her being female), shall we have a formal vote then? Pokebub (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2018 (EDT)

It's been over two months with no one actually citing evidence that her gender is unclear except for the one Brawl trophy. Can I please make the change now? TheNuttyOne 18:51, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * No, because nobody else has supported it. Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  19:05, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * "In SmashWiki's case, however, consensus is not purely determined via vote count. Instead, the dispute should be evaluated in an unbiased fashion to determine which "side" of the debate has the strongest arguments."
 * So far, your "side" of the debate (from my relatively biased standpoint, I'll admit) basically has provided no arguments at all. The amount of people supporting me is irrelevant. TheNuttyOne 19:11, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Claiming the other side has no argument doesn't automatically make you right. Besides, why are you still trying to push this, most people don't agree with you so just let it go.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  19:17, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Because the other side has not actually made any attempt to prove their point and it bugs me on principle. Please, PLEASE stop just saying "nah she's not female" and ACTUALLY GIVE ME A REASON. I'll shut up if you say anything besides "the Brawl trophy", "this one instance that doesn't use pronouns at all", or "the SMB2 manual". Those have all been cited and refuted (but to repeat: Brawl is only one instance and is known for making mistakes -- again, Kaptain K. Rool; lack of pronouns means nothing, pronouns are hardly necessary and certain characters with known genders have been referred to without using pronouns before; SMB2 and Wario's Woods are wildly outdated but even if they weren't, common courtesy is to list transgender people and characters as the gender they prefer) but for some reason the three (and that's assuming on Aidan, since he's only made the one comment -- a 3:2 ratio is hardly a consensus) of you seem to believe that's the end-all be-all fact and can't bother to actually try to make a smart argument. TheNuttyOne 19:22, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, in Japan they continue to refer to Birdo as male in some games.

In addition, on the topic of weak arguments I'd like to point out that your leading argument at the top of the page consists of this: "In some websites, you can be verbally assaulted and/or banned for hate speech if you assert that that doesn't count". Needless to say this is NOT a valid argument.

Now enough of this already, this discussion is non-productive and you are starting to get rather aggressive. I'd suggest that we end this here before things get bad.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  19:27, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * My leading argument, intended mainly as a joke, which was followed up by several other detailed arguments. Your leading arguments have not been.
 * We are not a Japanese wiki and do not report as if we are; if we're going to say her gender is unclear because it's unclear in Japan, we should also say her name is unclear since it could also be Catherine.
 * But even if we do decide to adopt a Japanese stance on this one page and no other, you would have to cite which games, not just say "some".
 * If you find this discussion non-productive, you don't need to participate in it. I personally would like to see it played to conclusion. TheNuttyOne 19:37, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

I agree with Alex, there are much more important things that need done here right now that don't include debating over pronouns. Birdo's gender is something that's been up for debate since ...he/she/its debut, and we aren't going to get a solid answer at this point, so it makes the most logical sense to call it "genderless" and move on.  Serpent   King  19:41, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * So the wiki's official stance is "ignore all of the solid evidence and claim no solid evidence."
 * Neat-o. TheNuttyOne 19:43, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * The fact that the discussion has died twice now and you have continued to attempt to revive it without bringing anything new to the table is number one, a conclusion, and number two, a direct violation of CONSENSUS. Continuing to argue like this is counter-productive. Either tell us something you haven't told us already, or drop the subject, because you're only flogging a dead horse at this point. Black Vulpine  of the Furry Nation.  Furries make the internets go! :3  19:44, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
 * ...really? really?
 * I've literally been asking for new things to the table. I have FILLED this freaking table with information and you all just keep saying "no solid evidence" without making any attempts to actually refute my arguments. The burden of argument should not be on me at this point.
 * Allow me to post a full recap:

REASONS TO CONSIDER HER GENDERLESS/INDETERMINATE
 * The Super Mario Bros. 2 manual. (cited by Aidan, 20 May)
 * REBUTTAL: The Super Mario Bros. 2 manual is outdated and claims she would prefer to be called female. (cited by me, 20 May)
 * REBUTTAL: Nintendo changes their stances constantly. (cited by PokeBub, 20 May)
 * Conflicting information in Brawl trophy. (cited by BV, 20 May)
 * REBUTTAL: The Brawl trophy is the only known instance of this conflicting information and Brawl is known for reporting false information, such as Kaptain K. Rool being King K. Rool's brother. (cited by me, 20 May)
 * No clear answer. (cited by Alex, 21 May)
 * REBUTTAL: Several games clearly refer to her as female. (cited by PokeBub, 21 May)
 * Super Smash Bros. 4 uses no pronouns. (cited by Alex, 21 May)
 * REBUTTAL: Other characters in Smash 4, including Malladus, Ciela, and Sheik, have no pronouns in their trophy descriptions, despite having clearly defined genders elsewhere. (cited by me, 21 May)
 * A lot of conflicting information. (cited by BV, 27 May)
 * REBUTTAL: No evidence provided of there being "a lot"; only cited instance is the Brawl trophy. See above. (cited by me, 27 May)
 * Only two people support changing it. (cited by BV, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: CONSENSUS states majority votes are not to be the determining factor. (cited by me, 8 August)
 * In Japan, some games call her male. (cited by Alex, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: We are not a Japanese wiki and do not report on Japanese facts. Additionally, none of these "some games" were cited. (cited by me, 8 August)
 * Most people disagree. (cited by Alex, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: See above rebuttal. Also, the supposed majority was at the time 3:2, hardly a proper majority. (cited by me, 8 August)
 * Discussion isn't productive. (cited by Alex, 8 August)
 * No rebuttal.
 * Leading argument (effectively "transphobia is bad") is a poor one. (cited by Alex, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: Leading argument is not the only one made and was intended as a joke. (cited by me, 8 August)
 * No solid answer. (cited by SK, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: Several games give her a solid gender. (cited by PokeBub, 21 May)
 * Opposing party has not provided any arguments. (cited by BV, 8 August)
 * REBUTTAL: See all above arguments. (cited by me, 8 August)

ARGUMENTS FOR CONSIDERING HER FEMALE
 * Brawl's trophy is the only instance of her being called an indeterminate gender. (cited by me, 20 May)
 * No rebuttal.
 * The most recent games, including Mario Kart 8 and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, call her female. (cited by me, 20 May)
 * REBUTTAL: Brawl's trophy calls her indeterminate gender. (cited by BV, 20 May)
 * COUNTER-REBUTTAL: Brawl's trophies are notoriously inaccurate. (cited by PokeBub, 20 May)
 * Nintendo changes stances all the time, such as Sheik being changed to female instead of male. (cited by PokeBub, 20 May)
 * No rebuttal.
 * Other wikis call her female. (cited by PokeBub, 20 May)
 * No rebuttal. (though this is a mostly irrelevant point)
 * The majority (11) of games call her female or male-to-female transgender, while only 1 states it's unclear. (cited by me, 22 May)
 * REBUTTAL: It's borderline "ass-backward" logic to consider a majority proper. (cited by BV, 27 May)
 * No one has provided any evidence of "multiple" games calling her gender unclear. (cited by me, 27 May)
 * No rebuttal.
 * MarioWiki, despite usually being much pickier on information, considers this information definitive. (cited by me, 27 May)
 * No rebuttal. (again, not the strongest point; still worth noting, though)
 * The vast majority of arguments for changing her gender to female have gone without being disputed. (cited by me, repeatedly)
 * No rebuttal.

TheNuttyOne 20:09, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Step away from this and give yourself a chance to calm down.  Serpent   King  20:23, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Gender part 2
2 years ago, a very heated discussion took place here regarding what we should list Birdo's gender as. Birdo's gender was referenced on a separate discussion on Sheik's article, which reminded me about this issue, and after thinking about it I think it's time we brought up the discussion again.

As you may recall, I was one of the main opposers of the original, however I now believe that Birdo is female, regardless of whether or not she is trans, which I doubt Nintendo will ever have the guts to address, since they'll receive a large backlash either way. I suspect that another major voice of opposition in the original discussion will also have changed their stance on the issue, and thus this discussion is definitely worth bringing up again.

Essentially, the case for listing Birdo's gender as female goes like this: In english versions of games at least, she is portrayed as female and referred to using female pronouns. My understanding is that some Japanese sources still refer to her as a man who thinks she is a woman, which if you know anything about gender is a contradiction in itself, but SmashWiki is an English language Wiki, and thus should take the stance that the English versions of the games take, that Birdo is female. The issue of whether or not Birdo is trans is irrelevant, as trans women are nevertheless women. More abstractly, there's also the matter of the Wiki's policy on gender identity regarding smashers, which is that our articles should reflect the gender identities of the smashers in question. Birdo may be a fictional character, but if we wanted to be consistent with our stance on gender identity, we should still treat Birdo the same way.

Now, the main argument for the opposition is that since this is a Super Smash Bros. Wiki, and since the Super Smash Bros. series has been rather vague on the matter, we should not list Birdo's gender as female on her article. The problem with this is that character articles typically follow the official canon of the character, even if contradictory information appears in trophy descriptions and the like (which is the only place a contradiction of Birdo being female occurs, and even then only in Brawl), because trophy descriptions are known for their goofs, and to suggest that Birdo should be treated any differently simply doesn't make any sense in my opinion.

Before I end this off, I would like to urge anyone who plans on leaving their thoughts on this to remain civil, as the discussion got rather out of hand the last time, and this became rather counter-productive.  Alex the  Weeb  19:09, November 12, 2020 (EST)
 * I wasn't here two years ago, but it appears that over time the article has slowly been changed to refer to her as female, with no opposition. Because no-one's so much as mentioned these changes until now, I really don't see exactly why you should do this over again; however, if you want my take, I think that given the evidence, if you asked Nintendo how to call her today, they'd tell you to call her female. Sincerely, Samuel the  Banjo- Kazooie   Boss. SamtheBKBossSIGN.png 19:57, November 12, 2020 (EST)
 * Agreed, and the way it is now is fine, imo. Anyone trying to change it would be just aggravating an issue that Nintendo is trying really hard to get over, I think. As the MarioWiki page indicates, Birdo is generally thought to be female (at least a cis woman, if not going by the original and astoundingly transphobic depiction of a trans woman) and Nintendo of America is very consistent in treating her as such. That said, if I were in a more playful mood, I'd change her gender on her infobox from "unknown" to "complicated". ~ StrawberryChan  (talk) 20:22, November 12, 2020 (EST)
 * To clarify, I am referring to the fact that in the info box we list her gender as "unknown".  Alex the  Weeb  03:56, November 13, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm also part of the camp that believes Birdo is female, but years of being a furry and surrounding myself with LGTBQs has taught me that we must recognise the uncertainties. Never assume gender, we always say. Black Vulpine  of the 🦊Furry Nation🐺.  Furries make the internets go! :3  05:30, November 13, 2020 (EST)
 * It's not an assumption, Birdo describes herself as female, and uses the women's restroom...  Alex the  Weeb  05:46, November 13, 2020 (EST)
 * Agreed. There's no assumption at play; even if she wasn't born female, if anyone is concerned about respecting a transgender person's gender identity, I think Birdo has made it very clear that for all intents and purposes, she is to be considered female, and nothing by Nintendo has appeared in the last 10+ years (besides Brawl, but whatever) to contradict this. Doesn't seem like too many people feel like arguing this; let's go ahead and change the infobox gender to "female" and see what happens. Sincerely, Samuel the  Banjo- Kazooie   Boss. SamtheBKBossSIGN.png 12:43, November 16, 2020 (EST)