User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1

Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff (SSB64)
I included ledge and floor attacks because they're attacks and they're part of the characters' metagames, and I think ignoring them doesn't make any sense. I can understand non-attack animations, though. "Flr1" is face down, "Flr2" is back down, "Ldg1" is <100% damage, "Ldg2" is > 100% damage. 1. (Samus/Falcon): Captain Falcon doesn't put his shoulder into the first hit of his jab as much as Samus does, but the rest of the attack is different enough to not be half-way cloned. For the f- and d-tilts, Captain Falcon doesn't spin when he does his like Samus does, but otherwise they're identical in function and speed. For the second ledge attack, Captain Falcon does an uppercut while Samus slams the foe with her cannon. They're identical in speed, having the same startup animation. 1. (Kirby/Jigglypuff): Jigglypuff doesn't have an infinite, but entirety of her jab combo is identical in function and speed to the first two hits of Kirby's. For the down smash, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and hers comes out a tad slower. They have the same amount of cooldown though. For the forward aerial it's almost the same; Kirby spins and his is a multi-hit move, Jigglypuff doesn't spin and it's single-hit.

I could also do Ness in comparison to Mario/Luigi in SSB64, and Ganondorf in comparison to Samus in Melee, but it's safe to say they're non-clones (the fact that they share those few attacks though should be shown on your charts, which I think should include ledge and floor attacks).  Blue  Ninjakoopa  16:38, 26 October 2014 (EDT)


 * I chose to ignore floor and edge attacks because I feel the overall variation across the cast with them is so much lower than normal attacks, which would raise pretty much everyone's clone rating.
 * I might do those Samus/Falcon and Kirby/Jigglypuff comperisons myself later. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Orchestral 16:56, 26 October 2014 (EDT)

Lucario and Mewtwo?
You should probably also do Lucario from Brawl and Mewtwo from Melee, despite the fact that Mewtwo didn't return, just to prove those who believe Lucario's some kind of clone of Mewtwo wrong. Just a suggestion. Bulbaboy (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2014 (EST)
 * Hmm that's not a bad idea. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Altruistic 14:26, 10 November 2014 (EST)
 * awww i wanted to suggest this -.- Well, I had another suggestion. Could you do Young Link/Toon Link (both versions of the latter) and Roy/Lucina? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 16:06, 10 November 2014 (EST)
 * Those would be less relevant but I'll consider them. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Prismatic 16:19, 10 November 2014 (EST)

Curious
Where did you decide to cut off between clone and semi-clone, and semi-clone and non-clone. I like round numbers so I would have done 75% and 50% (but this would've made Falco in Brawl a full clone and Lucas a non-clone). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 18:06, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Dr. Mario/Luigi
I think you should go Dr. Mario/Luigi. I wanna see how it compares to Dr. Mario/Mario, especially with the down-b stuff in SSB4. 108.41.245.79 12:02, 23 November 2014 (EST)
 * Yeah I've been thinking a bit more carefully about that edit of yours on the clone page I undid a few minutes ago, and you might have a point. I'm seeing if I can reword it better. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 12:03, 23 November 2014 (EST)
 * Okay yes I believe I get what you're saying. I'll go put it on the clone page. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 12:12, 23 November 2014 (EST)

Coincidence
Coincidentally, this page is itself a clone - of User:Omega Tyrant/Clone charts.  Rick Tommy  01:31, 24 November 2014 (EST)
 * Yeah, I never agreed too much with OT's methodology of this issue, so I rolled my own. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Pan-Galactic 11:05, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Kirby and Jigglypuff Melee?
Can you please make this comparison and add it in? It would be interesting to see how much they decloned into Melee and where they would fall into the complete chart in the bottom.

Thank you, MarioIsTheBest (talk) 14:00, 30 November 2014 (EST)
 * I've actually compiled that information recently.

Strangely enough, Jigglypuff is between 30% and 40%, therefore being, by Toomai's classification, between non-clone and semi-clone. Pokedex649 (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2014 (EST)

Fox and Falco SSB4
So my brother pointed this out to me earlier and he said that Fox and Falco's jab animations aren't alike in any way in Smash 4. I cross-referenced using his 3DS and mine and looked at both of their animations at the same time and there's a distinct difference. Bulbaboy (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2014 (EST)

It's not just SSB4. They're different in Brawl, too. Fox's are two straight closed-fist punches with alternating fists, and Falco's are two open-hand chops with the same hand. They really shouldn't be counted. Burb, 11:38, 11 December 2016 (EST)

Ganon and Falcon's neutral attack (Melee)
In Melee, they have the same animation, from what I've seen. I think that it should at least be a .5 cloned move in Melee. (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2014 (EST)
 * Yes, but Ganon's neutral in Melee is a one-time hitter, whereas Captain Falcon's is a 3-hit jabber (if that makes any sense). [[File:AidanzapunkSig.jpg]] Aidan  the Gamer  10:08, 2 December 2014 (EST)

A weighty issue
A counterargument that could be made is that you give every single individual move equal weight. A forward Smash is equal to one move. A neutral B is equal to one move. This seems unfair. Why?

Consider the following: Unambiguously describe, in one phrase, without the use of the word "or" or an equivalent, the forward Smash of the majority of the characters. You can't give the exact animations or what have you in order to do this reasonably, but it can be done, in a general sense, with the following statement: "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character". A few characters' forward Smashes have extra notes you might want to throw in for those characters or even exceptions (Mega Man's is a horizontal projectile, Olimar's is a thrown gravity-obeying projectile using the Pikmin mechanic, Snake's is a diagonally-shot missile...), but this covers most of the cast pretty well, right?

Now do the same with neutral B attacks. "An attack" is too vague. What's that? Can't do it? Yeah, of course not. While A-button moves are kinda similar in concept between characters, B-button moves are usually dramatically different. Is it fair to get each of a character's eighteen (in SSB4) A-button attacks equal weight to each of their five Specials? That seems dramatically biased in favor of the easier-to-generalize A-button moves.

Let's alter the weights. Different people will weight differently. Perhaps all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to all B-button attacks combined. Now, let's say that there are no arguments to be had with the exact on your chart (1 = fully cloned move, .5 = kinda-cloned move); only the weights. Now, who is clonier? Wolf (50.6%) or SSB64 Falcon (17.8%)?

And let's say one declares that even that is unfairly weighted in favor of the, again, easy-to-generalize A-button moves. Let's say all A-button attacks combined are equal in weight to one B-button attack. Now Wolf is 76.9% clone and Falcon 8.9%.

See what I mean? Changing the weights changes the perceived cloniness by a lot. --131.107.192.254 18:16, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * If you think all A-button attacks are equivalent in significance to all B-button attacks (let alone one) you have a very badly skewed sense of how Smash works. Miles ( talk)   18:20, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Percieved, yes. Actual cloneosity, no. This is about the developers' intent.72.152.70.243 18:25, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Miles: I explained exactly why I feel this way. Different forward Smashes have different properties, yes, this I absolutely do not argue. It's true even when discussing Mario vs. Dr. Mario. And some are more different than others. Again, no argument. But the fact that most of the forward Smashes can be summed up as a "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character" means it does less to differentiate characters than special moves. Not one part of my argument requires forward Smashes not to exist or to be wholly irrelevant.
 * Other IP: How can you know the developers' intent unless the developers say it? Other than character roster placement in Melee and (at least partially) Smash 4, they haven't actually said anything official on the subject that I'm aware of. I think Wolf's Up-B being called "Fire Wolf" when it doesn't involve any fire whatsoever is the most they've ever said on intent when it comes to Wolf. --131.107.192.254 18:47, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Okay yeah, all forward smashes can fit a super-vague definition. By that logic, all up specials (but one) are "upward motion move used for recovery and sometimes damage". That's vague to the point of meaningless in terms of distinguishing between characters. Miles ( talk)   19:01, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * It has been basically confirmed that Lucina falls into full clone territory according to [Sakurai himself.] I believe there was also an article confirming Dr. Mario and Dark Pit as well, but I don't know where that is, but the character placement is a big clue, too. Dr. Mario has a unique Down Special, which would probably make him a semi-clone going by your weighting proposal. (Same guy) 72.152.70.243 19:10, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Miles: ::::First of all, I banned the word "or" and equivalents. The intent behind that goes for "sometimes" as well; anything that allows you to describe options (otherwise, your description of a neutral B could be "a bouncing fireball OR a horizontal fireball OR a grabbing move that temporarily transforms a target into an egg OR a chargeable punch etc.").
 * Secondly, I would say that's more vague than "chargeable attack with a lot of knockback that hits immediately in front of character". Sure, I left open how you're attacking (punch, kick, headbutt, sword swipe, etc.) and the in-depth details (damage, speed, knockback direction, etc.), but you're leaving those same things open alongside "Where is the 'sometimes' damage aimed relative to the user? Does the damage do a lot of knockback or a little? Can it be charged? Does it work the same when on the ground as in the air? Does it also cause you to move down after you move up? Can it be used to move in directions other than up?", and the reason it doesn't list those are that the answers are "Depends, depends, depends, depends, depends, and depends." For my description, the answer are "immediately in front, a lot, yes, not applicable because all forward Smashes are ground-based by nature, not applicable, and not applicable".
 * Also, I'm pretty confident that's the only special move you can even get that specific with (which is why I picked neutral, not up, B for my example.) That and maybe "super move when you break a Smash Ball" for FS, of course.
 * Other IP: Okay, that's all fine for those characters, but I meant evidence of developer intent with Wolf. I accept Wolf is lower on the clone continuum than Lucina and Pittoo. I don't accept he's lower than Falcon64, just because some oddly-weighted number finagling makes him look that way. Again, the only developer intent I've seen with Wolf, beyond the same moves everyone else can see, would be how his specials (particularly Fire Wolf) were named.
 * And whether Smash 4 Doc counts as a clone depends on how you're weighting the moves and what your cutoff for "semi-clone" is. I would hope there's no such argument for Melee Doc, as if Melee Doc isn't a clone, I think we can all agree the term "clone" has little meaning! --131.107.192.254 19:19, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * My point is that your specials-heavy weighting might place Dr. Mario as a semiclone when he's obviously a full clone, as intended by the developers (proven by my previous post. Also, I don't think we should change the entire concept of this page because you don't like considering Wolf a nonclone. 72.152.70.243 19:24, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Actually, what numbers you come up with when you run Doc under various weights don't matter. What I'm really getting at is that this page seems to exist for exactly the opposite reason you say this heading does: Toomai doesn't like considering Wolf a clone, even a semi-clone, probably because "clone" has become some sort of curse word amongst the Smash fandom (unfairly if you ask me), and that whether someone is a clone or not is more subjective than this page tries to imply. If you look closely, I never said that "weigh all A-button moves as equal to all B-button moves" or "weigh all A-button moves as equal to one B-button move" are the only or even best ways to weigh them. Are they biased? Yeah, they are. I could go even more biased by giving A-button moves a weight of zero if you'd like; see how cloney Wolf is with Toomai's numbers then! (Hint: 90%.) You could even decide that B-button moves don't matter at all and give Wolf a whopping 11.1%. You could weigh down Smashes more than down throws. You could change the weights any way you like, and that's the point! It's subjective, and treating each of the eighteen A-button and 5 B-button moves as having equal eight shows a bias in favor of the A-button moves differentiating characters more than B-button that I feel is an unfair one. You say developer intent matters; I say then "show me the developer intent"! Because I see far more evidence the developers intended for Wolf to be a Fox derivative (does "derivative" offend your sensibilities less than "clone"?) than Falcon64 a Samus derivative. --131.107.192.254 19:39, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I don't mind clones at all. If this is important enough to you, if we find evidence in favor of Wolf being a Fox semiclone, we can certainly factor that in, as a footnote. And I agree that this is your opinion, but I haven't seen a single benefit to weighting this besides considering Wolf a clone, and that's objective. I do agree that some attacks likely take up more development resources than others (Dancing Blade, Timber), so maybe we can work something out. But until you give me more advantages of weighting than disadvantages, I will not reconsider. 72.152.70.243 19:51, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

We have proof via various official sources that the developers consider there to be six clones in Melee, zero in Brawl, and three in SSB4. I have designed my "who's a clone" process so that these count as clones and no others do. (We have no such proof that I know of for SSB64, so anything that happens there is completely theoretical.) There will always be arguments about how exactly certain things should be weighted, but I'm not entirely sure what your point is other than that.

Also, Fire Wolf is known as "Wolf Shoot" in Japanese, so I think it's a case of the English namers being doofuses rather than an attempt by the devs to make Wolf seem more Fox-like. Toomai Glittershine The Undirigible 22:04, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

SSB4
Some potentially interesting stuff. Where 0.2 means a vague resemblance, like a similar motion done by different body parts (like Mewtwo/Lucario's forward aerial), while 0.5 is a stronger one. I guess a bunch of these might be debatable, even assuming I did everything correctly.

I'm also trying to identify the sources of the Miis moves, since a lot of them resemble or are pretty much exactly the same as other characters'. --Menshay (talk) 05:35, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * How did you find the similarities between Kirby's and Jigglypuff's up specials? Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 08:11, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere are in no way a full-on 1. Shadow Ball doesn't hurt opponents as it's charging (as of Smash 4), and it goes in a much more zig-zag pattern. Teleport and Extreme Speed aren't similar at all, as they both have different functions. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 08:57, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Yeah I should probably do Mewtwo/Lucario in SSB4 as another "dumb pair". I dunno about Kirby/Jigglypuff though, it never seemed worth the effort to me. And I'm not bothering with Miis, because they're ripping off multiple characters, not a clone of a single one. Toomai Glittershine The Xanthic 09:55, 7 May 2015 (EDT)


 * I messed up the up and side special columns. Corrected version:


 * A couple other notes:
 * I know Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball are not identical, but since in the actual page Mario and Luigi's fireballs and, more importantly, PK Flash and PK Freeze get a 1 I feel they're close enough.
 * I gave a 0.2 to Force Palm/Confusion due to the grab effect, otherwise they're nothing alike. However:
 * I approached this with the intent of maximizing the clone score, sort of: if something is even vaguely similar it gets a (fraction of) point. Take this as a "worst case" table: if focusing on the similarities doesn't manage to push a pair in semi-clone territory then they're obviously not clones.
 * I might still try to do Mii Fighters on my own anyway. Just personal interest. --Menshay (talk) 14:35, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Stuff about Wolf-Fox specials
According to your definition of how to give "1" or "0.5"s:
 * Generally I try to give characters the benefit of the doubt (e.g. Falco's Brawl Reflector is not a clone of Fox's), but if the animation has only changed in speed, or the hitboxes have moved yet the animation is unchanged, no dice.


 * For Wolf's Up Special, the hitboxes/hits works differently, and the animation is a clear difference. Deserves at least 0.5.
 * For Wolf's Side Special, it has more obvious differences, at least in attack direction.
 * For Wolf's Down Special, it gives Wolf invincibility frames, then the reflector damages opponent afterwards. Also clear animation change (Unless you don't count the reflect as part of the animation).
 * For Wolf's Neutral Special, it has a melee attack added. No much change in animations (maybe slower in speed), but it apparently has an added hitbox (instead of moved hitbox).

Not trying to make you call all of them unique attacks, but I don't think these should be called a "1" either, or else you can essentially say that Pit's Specials are all similar to Fox's (Up B being directional recovery, Side B being dash+attack, Down B being reflector, Neutral B being projectile shooting).

Also, having heard how Kirby has more similar attacks to Fox when compared to Wolf, I request a Brawl Kirby-Fox dumb pair. 219.78.209.48 10:51, 25 May 2015 (EDT)
 * The Side and Down Specials still deserve a 1, in my opinion, due to the irrelevance of their differences and the Wolf Flash being a Fox custom special in Smash 4, but the others probably do deserve 0.5s or lower. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 11:26, 25 May 2015 (EDT)

I'm unsure either way about Wolf's blaster for exactly that reason. Wolf Flash I will consider lowering the score of, as it's arguably Wolf's most different special move, but the fact that Fox has it as a custom option in SSB4 hurts it a lot (clearly the designers don't think it's that different if it can be implemented as a custom). Wolf's up and down specials do not get a pass from me; yes, the animation of the character has changed, but the moves themselves have identical controls and technical properties (e.g. number and behaviour of actions and subactions).

All this considered, I don't consider this particularly important, as even as it stands now (that is, with Wolf's clone score maybe being a little high), Wolf is still firmly in the "non-clone" category. Toomai Glittershine The Different 12:52, 25 May 2015 (EDT)

Marth/Roy SSB4 plz
...see title. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 20:33, 15 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I agree, we need your help determining Roy's clone status in SSB4. Bulbaboy (talk) 22:16, 15 June 2015 (EDT)

DLC Characters
Two things:
 * Can someone make a chart comparing and, they were semi-clones in SSBB. I don't have the game so I can't check their "clone-iness".
 * When I watched the Nintendo video announcing, I noticed that he looks a lot like . If this is not a clone or even semi-clone, put them on the list anyways as a dud pair.

Thanks. 76.168.47.247 19:38, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * You mean Ryu? Ken's just a trophy :P ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe Nutta. 19:40, 16 June 2015 (EDT)


 * Yeah. I made this post right after watching the video, and I wasn't really paying attention. So can someone make a chart comparing and . I think they might be a dumb clone, but do it as an example. 76.168.47.247 23:42, 22 June 2015 (EDT)

I'm just curious...
How is the comparison between Lucas's and Ness's down airs a full on 1? Lucas's hits 3 times (maybe even 4, I'm not sure), whereas Ness's only hits once. (Also, I think those 1.25's are meant to be .75's, judging your ratings on the rest of the tables.) Aidan,  Master of Speed and Aura  17:34, 2 July 2015 (EDT)
 * If you're referring to the specials for Ness and Lucas, Toomai explicitly said it was a penalty for Ness having Lucas's specials as custom options. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I don't think it's meant to be .75. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 18:24, 2 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Yes, I'm aware of the penalty, but generally, a penalty is a subtraction, not an addition. Aidanzapunksignature.png Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura [[File:AidanzapunkSignaturesmall.PNG]] 19:04, 2 July 2015 (EDT)

Hm yes I just copied the Ness/Lucas row from Brawl and assumed it was correct. I'll go back over it. As for the penalty, it's a "penalty for being too clone-y", so it raises the clone score. Toomai Glittershine The Boss 23:45, 2 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Wow. so they are MORE clone-y in this game than in Brawl? That's mindblowing :S 219.78.209.48 12:09, 4 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Well, Luigi has Mario's Fireball as a custom special, and you gave it a LOWER score than characters with completely unique customs, so it feels a bit inconsistent. Nyargle blargle  (Talk) 13:14, 4 July 2015 (EDT)

Fox-Kirby
So I remember many people say "Fox and Kirby are more cloney than Wolf does", so I went on to do a little experiment.

* :I'm not so sure... It's both alternating leg kicks so I counted. :/

I'd say it's really quote close really. Them being both in Smash64 may be an explanation, where everyone's attacks are actually really close to each other.

In 64 it's even closer, to add:

# : Fox's Dash Attack is essentially Kirby's Forward Smash. ## : Fox's Forwards Smash is essentially Kirby's Forward Air (motion-wise) * : Both extending leg forward and spinning. Only difference is 1 leg vs 2 leg and multihits. Counted half (Unless it shouldn't be)

Still not sure if I did it correctly, but here you go. :/ To be honest many characters are much more similar when talking about 64... 58.152.149.27 05:04, 3 September 2015 (EDT)

Ganondorf
While I don't agree that you count Ganon's Ftilt and Dtilt as half cloned (since the Clone page calls them unique), why didn't you at least also give Ganon's Utilt as 0.5, which the Clone page also calls unique? The Clone page also says his Up Throw is unique. Also, the page states that Falco has a different BAir and a Up Smash that isn't as cloned as before. Just wondering on your input to this. GmanSir (talk) 13:47, 22 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Er, are you talking about SSBB or SSB4? Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Dispenser 09:49, 23 April 2016 (EDT)
 * For Ganon, since Brawl. For Falco, BAir and UAir since Brawl, and in Smash 4, Falco's USmash is two kicks upward. I also watched some Lucas videos in slow mo, and noticed that his Jabs aren't cloned. (Ness: Punch, Punch, Right Kick, Lucas: Right Kick, Right Kick, Left Kick) Their Dair are also different, and I don't think Lucas's PK Freeze should count as a whole 1. I would give it a 0.5, but would be fine if you gave it a 0.75. I feel the same with Wolf's Side B, since it doesn't go horizontal and stuns. Oh, and I just remembered that Luigi got new animations for his Jabs in Smash 4. [[Image:GmanSir_Signature.png|20px]] GmanSir (talk) 23:31, 24 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Perhaps I should revisit some things with a more rigid definition of what it takes for a normal move to be neither 1 nor 0. I'll have to figure that out. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Golden 09:49, 25 April 2016 (EDT)