Talk:Hammer (move)

Sweetspot
Why is it good for a move to have no sweetspot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbe (talk • contribs) 20:45, 9 August 2009
 * Moves with sweetspots are usually high-risk-high-reward moves. Take Falcon's knee for example - if it hits, it HITS; if it misses, it's useless. (And unless you're t3h mast3r, it will miss often.) Moves without sweetspots don't have the raw power, but are generally more reliable, and therefore arguably more useful. (And don't forget to sign your talk page comments with ~ .) Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  20:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't sign because no matter how hard I try to press on the top of the key, it comes out like this. ```` And I AM t3h mast3r. Oh, wait, should I click on the cursive writing button? --Sbe (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To put it another way, if there's no "sweetspot", there's also no "sourspot", so no matter which part of the hammer makes contact, it does the same damage and knockback, so you don't have to worry as much about aiming the attack. And yes, if ~ doesn't work, just use the button with cursive writing on it - it does exactly the same thing.  Penguin  of  Death   21:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, what? You've been pressing the top of the [`~] key to get the "~"? Just use the Shift key; same as if you're trying to get a "?". Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  21:10, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For me, aiming an attack is as easy as using it. Sbe (talk)

Name
Has the move actually been named "Hammer Flip" in SSB4, or is it just the name of the charge-and-release part of it? Toomai Glittershine The Incomprehensible 16:38, 16 April 2014 (EDT)


 * im pretty sure its now Hammer Flip. In Kirby games its called SUPER Hammer Flip. -- Myth Myth Kirby.png 16:49, 16 April 2014 (EDT)

Hammer Flip
In Triple Deluxe (and probably Return to Dream Land and Dream Collection's challenges), "Hammer" is Kirby's standard B attack, while "Hammer Flip" is his up B attack. In Smash, I believe that Hammer and Hammer Flip work differently enough to be considered separate moves. I would like others' opinions on this. (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Hammer Flip should be covered on this page, honestly. That's like saying we need to cover all of Marth's Dancing Blade permutations separately. Variants of the same move belong on the same page, not separate ones. Miles ( talk)   20:59, 18 June 2014 (EDT)
 * However, in this case, it has a different name and works much differently. (talk) RedSig.png 21:04, 18 June 2014 (EDT)
 * We're covering customization options on the same pages as the main versions, and this is no more different than those. Info on Hammer Flip belongs as a part of this article. Miles ( talk)   21:09, 18 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Okay. then. (talk) RedSig.png 21:22, 18 June 2014 (EDT)

EGX Booklet
I'm mostly only putting this here to avoid 1RV, but I believe my edit was wrongly reverted. It's questionable as to whether or not we should revert all uses of "Hammer Flip" back to "Hammer", but everything I put in my edit was factual, even if it were just mere trivia. Toast  ltimatum  17:32, 29 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Does the American version of Smash 3DS call the move "Hammer Flip" or something? Because in my PAL game, the move is clearly named Hammer, and I fail to see why we haven't changed back yet if there isn't a regional difference involved. Toast  Wii U Logo Transparent.png ltimatum  12:24, 9 November 2014 (EST)
 * Yeah my Canadian version calls it "Hammer Flip" (both game and booklet). Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Metroid 12:39, 9 November 2014 (EST)
 * I'll go around making edits to reflect the regional difference then. However, seeing as the PAL version treats Hammer Flip like the same move as Hammer from Brawl, should we still list the move separately in Kirby's move table? Toast  Wii U Logo Transparent.png ltimatum  12:49, 9 November 2014 (EST)
 * Personally, I think we should ignore what NoA thinks and only call it the "Hammer Flip" when it's fully charged, like how some people refuse to call it the Fire Jump Punch unless the sweetspot is hit. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 12:53, 9 November 2014 (EST)
 * That would make sense to me. It provides consistency, and the PAL version does specify that the move "becomes" Hammer Flip at full charge. Toast  Wii U Logo Transparent.png ltimatum  12:59, 9 November 2014 (EST)

Duplicate Electric Ness
here's a video of a glitch involving Kirby's hand to be on fire.

Smashworker101 (talk) 22:25, 15 February 2015 (EST)

Move
I Oppose on the grounds that the move is called "Hammer Flip" only in the NTSC version of Smash 4. In the PAL version, and in Melee and Brawl, it's simply called "Hammer", so I personally think majority should rule in this case. Serpent   King   06:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)
 * agreed Nintendofan1653  ( talk ) the true north strong and free 12:03, 13 January 2016 (EST)
 * Neutral, leaning towards support. We list the NTSC version's name....don't we? Ganonmew,  The Evil Clone  15:42, 13 January 2016 (EST)
 * Except the NTSC's name in Melee and Brawl is simply "Hammer". Suddenly calling it "Hammer Flip" is inaccurate. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   15:45, 13 January 2016 (EST)
 * I wouldn't say it's inaccurate, because it is accurate - just not to Melee and Brawl. That said, I weak support on the grounds that 1) this is a clearer title and 2) it's the most recent name, and that generally trumps most common name (not here, but on most encyclopedias). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 16:22, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Oppose per SK. Miles ( talk)  17:15, 13 January 2016 (EST)
 * Considering I tagged it, I initially supported this, but reading was Serpent had to say, I now oppose, because I was not aware of that. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  23:57, 15 January 2016 (EST)

Oppose. It's only called "Hammer Flip" in one translation of one game; shouldn't we go with the more commonly-used name? BaconMaster331  talk  11:18, 16 January 2016 (EST)

Weak support. Wasn't the name changed in the Japanese version of Smash 4, too? Nyargle blargle'''  (Contribs) 21:52, 16 January 2016 (EST)

 Weak Oppose . It was changed in both NTSC and Japanese versions of the game. It's the same with Link's Boomerang: it appeared in two Smash games as a normal Boomerang, then in Brawl onward it was changed to the Gale Boomerang, but the page is still "Boomerang." Here, it appeared in Melee and Brawl as the Hammer, and now in SSB4 it's now the Hammer Flip. I'd support it only if there was corresponding consistency with Gale Boomerang, but the basis of these moves are boomerangs and hammers.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 22:00, 16 January 2016 (EST)
 * Well there is no way I am supporting a move to gale boomerang so... Serpent  SKSig.png  King   22:02, 16 January 2016 (EST)
 * Not if majority rules, obviously. A change to Gale Boomerang has a little more of an argument behind it than this due to it appearing in half the games, but also has Toon and Young Link holding it back, unless there's a split. But that's not what we're discussing here lol  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 22:06, 16 January 2016 (EST)
 * I'd say the difference between this and Boomerang would be TLink and YLink. There's no reason to split, and Boomerang is a better catchall than Gale Boomerang. On the other hand, this is nothing more than Kirby's move, so there's no reason to do a catchall term. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 22:08, 16 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's true. The thing with Link's Bow is that it was just a design and name change, without much change in function. Here, this is a change of function and name. It functions the same as in Brawl except with the addition of charging and walking while charging. I'm going to change to support.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 22:13, 16 January 2016 (EST)

I can see that consensus is very split here...so unless this is resolved in a couple of days, I'll have to go with the absolute poll which currently is oppose by 1 vote. Serpent   King   17:41, 18 January 2016 (EST)

Kirby's neutral special is called "Vacuum" in 64, "Swallow" in Melee and "Inhale" in Brawl. However, we use inhale because that's the most recent name. (You could argue that the reason we use this name is that it appears in more than one game, but I'm pretty sure it was named that before Smash 4 was released). Based on this, I support the move. Tepig (talk) 13:24, 19 January 2016 (EST)

Oppose Hammer Flip is only referenced by the default move. Hammer Bash and Giant Hammer don't mention Flip. Dek Zek  17:32, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's pretty loose logic. Super Jump Punch's don't either - one is just Super Jump, while the other is Explosive Punch. So should we move it? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:37, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * Hammer Flip functions the same as Hammer in Brawl. It just has a Fire effect, and gets a different name. Super Jump Punch exists in all 4 games, and keeps the same name in SSB4. Dek Zek Dekzeksig.png 17:44, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's slightly more sound logic, but we renamed Inhale and Hero's Bow. What's the difference here? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:48, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * And they functioned exactly the same too. Dang, this debate is really torn. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  17:48, 19 January 2016 (EST)

Btw, I'm changing my vote to strong support. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 17:56, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * I'm tempted to support again, but for now, I'll just change my vote to neutral, leaning to support. Disaster Flare  Disaster Flare signature image.png  (talk)  17:57, 19 January 2016 (EST)

I oppose per SK. I haven't seen a good (IMO) refute to his logic. ---This message is from Penro. 19:10, 19 January 2016 (EST)
 * Pretty split still...6 oppose, 4 support, 2 neutral leaning towards support.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 16:51, 20 January 2016 (EST)
 * I think SK is counting the neutral-towards-supports as full supports, or at least half votes, which would make it 6:6 or 6:5. Still, we can't really call that a consensus.
 * So I guess bump. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 16:53, 20 January 2016 (EST)
 * Boom, bam,﻿ bop, bodabop boomp, pow.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 19:43, 20 January 2016 (EST)

Bump. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 12:19, 22 January 2016 (EST)

To Penro: I'm not sure if you didn't read my reasoning, didn't think it was good, or didn't understand. So I will try to make it clearer: Kirby's neutral special has had three different names across the different games, but we use Inhale because that's the most recent one. So I think we should name this one by the most recent name too. Tepig (talk) 12:29, 22 January 2016 (EST)

The name change was made not only in the NTSC version, but also the Japanese version. For Smash 4, the majority lies with "Hammer Flip."  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 13:11, 22 January 2016 (EST)

Bump again ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 21:09, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I support. Most modern name, it's likely that future Smash titles will use this name over "Hammer". -- Ethan  ( Discussion ) 13:19, 23 January 2016 (EST)

We are now 7-6 in favor of support, counting neutral to supports as full supports. Consensus is too split here, so I move that this discussion gets dropped for now due to lack of consensus. Serpent   King   20:08, 23 January 2016 (EST)
 * Pretty sure you know my opinion here.
 * I'd say if you really want it to be over that badly, you should go with the democratic answer. But I don't see why we can't wait to get more of a consensus. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 12:33, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Weak oppose I understand the merits of changing the name, but I think it's understood as Hammer to most people. Scizor  Steelix  12:48, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * ...Well now we don't even have a democratic ruling xD ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 12:52, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * So it's tied. I get the feeling people in charge don't want to make the change. They are prolonging this by persisting with trying to end the discussion due to apparent "lack of consensus." Unless I don't know something. Also, I'd like to point out, that if someone types in Hammer that they'll be redirected to Hammer Flip. This goes both ways obviously (Hammer Flip redirects to Hammer), but there's no harm either way. It's just that changing it to Hammer Flip is much more logical and is up to date with the times.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 14:45, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Also, if for whatever reason customs are brought into discussion, 2 of 3 customs involve a charge, which is an inherent property characteristic of the Hammer Flip.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 14:47, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Actually, if this were named Hammer Flip, "Hammer" would probably take you to the disambig since they might also be looking for the item. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 14:49, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Ooh, you're right. Hmmm. I don't know what to think of that. I don't think it's a big deal, though.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 14:50, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's the case for both Hammer items and hammer moves. I think it works regardless. No problems.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 14:53, 24 January 2016 (EST)

No. The reason I want this discussion over is because it's one that I feel will never have a true consensus. There's just too much back and forth. We've been tied in votes now at like 4 or 5 different times, and I don't see that changing. Serpent   King   14:54, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Also, my being "in charge" is completely irrelevant. My opinion counts for no more than yours does unless I make it so through better logic and reasoning. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   14:55, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Well, favoring a side (particularly the side you're on) just because there's not a consensus does look pretty bad. Again, you could just wait until there's a democratic winner again. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 14:56, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's not really how SW works though is it? I am not favoring the opposing side because that's the one I'm on. If the discussion is dropped, the logical solution is to keep the page as is. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   14:59, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * I just don't see why you think closing this off is logical. There was discussion coinciding with the time it was supposedly "dropped." There is a possibility there will be consensus, closing it out of fear it won't isn't responsible. Anyways, we could have a redirect on Hammer (move) to Hammer Flip, as simply "Hammer" was a previous name of the move. It would work great.  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 15:00, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * (edit conflict) Yes, but that's still favoring the other side. If we leave the page as-is, it would be the same as if it was consensus for oppose, therefore they "win" despite not having consensus. So when there's really no good reason to end the discussion, it's just unfair to do so. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 15:00, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * Discussion has gone on for 11 days, with zero input on only two days (not in a row), I don't see how this discussion has truly been "dropped."  Aardvarkian  (Talk • Contributions) 15:04, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * I also must admit that this discussion is turning into a massive headache for me. I have been trying my hardest to remain neutral in decision making here (note that I have been trying to gain consensus to drop it, rather than just doing it) but it is becoming increasingly difficult. Activity on a discussion is irrelevant if it seems consensus will never be reached. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   15:09, 24 January 2016 (EST)
 * But it's not causing any problems (besides this discussion here which is somewhat problematic, but that was started by you trying to end it). If we were all screaming at each other or something I could see why ending it would be a good plan. But given that it's not distracting us from the work on the wiki, and it's not a heated argument, there's no reason we can't wait to at least get a democratic solution. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 15:11, 24 January 2016 (EST)

(reset indent) Considering this discussion has lasted for almost 2 weeks now, it's starting to give me a headache too. Yes, it's not causing problems, but no matter what, consensus doesn't seem to be reaching at all and it feels like it's going to last forever at this point. Honestly, I felt once Miles removed the tag, it should've stayed that way. I honestly kind of regret even putting the tag up the first time to begin with at this point... Disaster Flare   (talk)  01:40, 26 January 2016 (EST)

Support. Quote from the PAL version: "When this move is fully charged, it becomes Hammer Flip." I believe this is enough information to justify support. Besides, if the discussion's getting this bad, how about we just name it Kirby's Side-B? It doesn't confuse anyone. ~SuneEnough (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2016 (EST)

Move (2)
I'm not happy with the results of the previous discussion so I'm opening up a brand new one.

Hammer Flip is the most recent name for the move and is used in the NTSC and Japanese versions of SSB4 as the main name of the move, and in the PAL version it's the name of a fully charged Hammer, so it's used in all three versions. We previously moved Hero's Bow and Inhale to match the name of the new names they were given in Brawl for the same reason, so it would be inconsistent not to move this one. Additionally, it would make the title less sloppy since we wouldn't have to have the "(move)" modifier to make the difference between it and Hammer (item) clear.

So that said, I strongly support moving it. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 14:34, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * oppose Hammer is used more often and hammer flip just dosent sound cool  Nintendofan1653  ( talk ) EZMONEY!! 14:51, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * Support for the same reasons as before. [[File:TepigSprite.png]]Tepig (talk) 14:56, 27 January 2016 (EST)

Protection?
Um I'm pretty sure protection for a single edit war that's effectively resolved is not really proper here. It's only one circumstance that's already over. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 15:05, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * Agreed.  John  John3637881 Signature.png  PK SMAAAASH!!  15:51, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * I don't want to simply remove protection without talking it out first, but I agree that this protection was wrong. Clearly stated in PROTECT is that we as admins are not to protect pages simply to get our way, which is essentially what's happening here. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   18:55, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * After taking a peek at the history of this page...I retract that statement, protection was entirely necessary in that case. Serpent  SKSig.png  King   21:07, 27 January 2016 (EST)
 * I was going more by "Do not make the common mistake of protecting pages unnecessarily. For example, do not protect a page simply because it is the Main Page, or because it got vandalized once." While not vandalism, there was only one edit war that had been long resolved when Miles protected it. It's one thing to protect it when it's only one edit war mid-edit war, but it was over. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by you. Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 21:23, 27 January 2016 (EST)

Rename
I know this topic has been discussed before (and nearly was discussed again), I would like to point out that PAL Ultimate now refers to this move as "Hammer Flip" alongside the NTSC version. Therefore, in tandem with renaming other pages to match their most recent name, I would like to propose moving this page to "Hammer Flip" as well. Aidan, the Rurouni  13:40, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * If the PAL version changed the name too, then yes, we should move this page to Hammer Flip. Lou Cena (talk) 13:41, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Support for reasons mentioned above. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer  Leave a message if needed 13:43, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Bumping - anyone have any objections to this? Aidan,  the Rurouni  17:01, June 28, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose, I would much prefer a split to a move. Hammer has been the name for just as long has hammer flip has, and there are significant functional differences.  Alex the  Jigglypuff trainer  10:14, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Bumping. Lou Cena (talk) 00:32, July 1, 2019 (EDT)

Split, into "Hammer (move)" and "Hammer Flip". I think this will make things easier to work with. Toomai Glittershine The Rainbow 10:53, July 6, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm also for this, it's better than choosing one over the other. Aidan,  the Rurouni  11:43, July 6, 2019 (EDT)
 * After seeing Alex’s suggestion, change my vote to a split instead of a rename. I agree that it’ll be easier to work with. Lou Cena (talk) 15:43, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

I'm in favor of a split, but I also think that the Melee/Brawl move should be moved to simply Hammer, to be consistent with Boomerang. Rdrfc (talk) 02:58, July 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Similarly to Boomerang and Boomerang (item)? I support a split like that. Crazy456Rhino (talk) 12:01, November 26, 2019 (EST)