Forum:The Tier List, version 3

Pikamander will prolly add the tier list once it is released on June 5th. But while we're waiting for that day to arrive, let's discuss what we can expect from the SBR's third Brawl tier list. What are your thoughts? Mine are that the last place honor will go to a new character since Ally's great performance with Falcon at APEX, and I'd also like to see Dedede move down, but that prolly won't happen. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 18:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

From what I have read, Ganondorf is likely to take Falcon's spot. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, especially when you consider that Ganon is the only character in the game with a 0:100 match-up. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 20:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The sad part is he is my other main. He should at least have a 1:99.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 21:25, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no match-up is completely impossible, which is what 0:100 illustrates. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 01:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually a 0:100 means that for every 1000 Brawls, Ganondorf wins fewer than five times on average, meaning that his win percentage is <0.5%. Matchups are all* given to 0 decimal places, so a win percentage of <0.5% against a particular character is rounded to 0% when taken to 0 decimal places. Therefore, a 100:0 matchup doesn't mean it's impossible for Ganondorf to win, it just means that on average he wins no more than four times per thousand Brawls.
 * * (There are some matchups that aren't to 0 decimal places, but there are only thirteen of them and they're either 62.5:37.5, 52.5:47.5 or 42.5:57.5, which correspond to average win ratios of 5:3, 21:19 and 17:23 respectively, but none of them even begin to approach a win ratio of 1:249, which is the win ratio for the example given above in which Ganondorf wins only four Brawls per thousand.)
 * I am  Penguin  of  Death  , and I love stats. 16:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol Ganon has a 5-95 matchup =D thats the lowest it goes, because nothings so unwinnable its 0:100 JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You do know that o.5%, by laws of maths, gets rounded up to 1%? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.145.18 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 8 July 2009
 * Firstly, sign your comments using ~ . Secondly, you do know what "<" means, right? Just in case you don't, it means "less than". A win percentage of exactly 0.5% against a particular character is rounded to 1% when taken to 0 decimal places, but anything less than 0.5% gets rounded to 0%. In other words, a win percentage of <0.5% against a particular character is rounded down to 0% when taken to 0 decimal places, which is what I said. Therefore, fallacy not detected.  Penguin  of  Maths   09:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh I've forgotten. For this tier list, I don't expect much changes. But I'd like to see Lucas moving up ^^ Metalink187 (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I added the list to the top of the page on June 5, just like GalaxiaD predicted. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 16:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Marth moved down, not happy... :( Wario is overrated to me. Metalink187 (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the third best? Since when? And how did Sonic and PT shoot up? Aside from that, I'm glad that Fox surpassed Wolf and DDD moved down. And Falcon's not worst anymore! -  GalaxiaD  Talk 19:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario can avoid "combos" due to his floatiness, and he's got some decent moves. And a bike. PT users are developing strategies for each Pokemon, so they no longer need to depend on one of the pokemon. Sonic I expected to move up, but not by eight. DDD is heavy, so he can get raped by some characters, and Ganon still beats Falcon IMO. Smoreking (T)  (c)  18:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

As expeted, Ganon dropped and Jigglypuff rose. I am happy Jigglypuff rose while sad Ganon dropped again. Both of my mains are still bottom tier. Y462 (T • C • E ) 20:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I just wish that Link'd go up, Ike'd go up, Ness'd go up, Jigglpuff would take Ganon's place, and Ganon'd overtake Falcon again. ''' Ike's Best Buddy
 * Unfortunately, as long as Marth (and whoever else) has that infinite chaingrab on Ness and Lucas, I doubt either one of 'em will go much anywhere else. Jigglypuff's, got a decent enough game to warrant not being bottom, she deserves that spot.  Ganondorf isn't bottom, though.  I personally think it's Link.  He has no unique qualities that sets him apart from the bunch (this is mainly Toon Link's fault, as TL does pretty much everything better than Link does).  He's got one of the, if not the, worst recovery in the game as well as a poor ground game and a meh aerial game.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 16:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Jigglypuff also hard counters Diddy Kong, so that might help getting out of bottom tier. She also goes even with MK and possibly soft-counters Falco.  It's probably these guys that keep Jigglypuff bottom tier.  Y462 (T • C  • E ) 17:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wanting Sonic to go up from the second tier list to the third, but I didn't expect him to shoot up. Kinda disappointed that Link went down that low. I'm surprised that Wario's higher than Falco. Unknown the   Hedgehog  20:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario-Floaty, DACUS, bike, chomp can break combos, recovery, etc. Smoreking (T)  (c)  20:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wario got a great place, I believe in the future he will be 2nd because now people know Wario is an amazingly good character. So low place as 8th was because many people thinks he's disgusting (not me). Get Snake's place in the next tier list! Wario is less vulnerable to counter picks. Firewario (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Meta Knight and Snake aren't gonna be moving for a while. Snake has amazing range and physical attacks. With proper timing, he can get a f-tilt lock, and with proper reading of his opponent, he can D-throw chain them. Not to mention his AAA combo rape, Utilt rape, and forward tilt second hit strength. His DACUS goes way further than Wario's, and launches a projectile at the end, allowing for an amazing approach. He also has an amazing recovery with his bomb jumps, and he's got a bunch of projectiles. Snake's strong, and he has range and projectiles. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Snake's recovery is bad IMO, he is really open for spikes or Wario's Chomp. Wario's recovery is much better. His ground game is really good, but his air game is terrible, his aerials have a lot of lag, that a terrible weakness, that's why he hates stages like Rainbow Cruise and Norfair. Snake's DACUS should only be used to surprise or get to the edge quickly when the opponent is offstage. When we get a really good Wario I believe he'll be 2nd. Firewario (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He can airdodge the spikes or use a Bair or Uair on the opponent before they hit him, and can bomb jump to regain cypher. Snake's DACUS can be used in most situations, wether it be escaping, approaching, or just plain moving. There are no stages that are completely aerial, so he can land, pull out a grenade or some sort of projectile, then proceed into the air. His Uair and Bair are both quick and strong, his Fair is a meteor smash, and if it doesn't, it's still a decent attack. I'll agree that his Dair isn't that good, but his Nair can be really strong if he hits with the final attack, and the other ones can juggle in a minor way, and deal damage. Smoreking (T)  (c)  21:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

While Snake is below he IS vulnerable to spikes. If he air dodge, he'll self destruct before the C4 is planted. Clearly that 2 stages forces him to use his laggy aerials. The stages where he isn't forced to use his aerials are much better. See many tourney matches to count how many times he got spiked when offstage. End of this discussion about Snake's weaknesses. Firewario (talk) 21:53, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, have you seen Snake's tourney results when compared to anyone else's (except MK)? There's a reason he had his own tier last time.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 03:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would like to see Sonic move up personally because he is my 2nd best character i would also like to see ike move up because power is realy underrated but im not much of a all-out brawl guy im starting to get into it and i kinda just starting learining all thi stuff so wut do i not but falco should be number 1 :) FalcoIsBetterThanFox27

Differences
Here are the differences between version two and three.
 * 0 Meta Knight
 * 0 Snake
 * +5 Wario
 * -1 Falco
 * +2 Diddy Kong
 * -2 King Dedede
 * -1 Marth
 * -3 Mr. Game & Watch
 * +3 Pikachu
 * +1 Olimar
 * +4 Ice Climbers
 * -3 R.O.B.
 * 0 Kirby
 * -4 Lucario
 * +1 Zero Suit Samus
 * +1 Toon Link
 * +1 Pit
 * -4 Donkey Kong
 * 0 Peach
 * +1 Luigi
 * +3 Fox
 * -2 Wolf
 * +8 Sonic
 * +1 Sheik
 * -2 Bowser
 * -4 Zelda
 * +5 Pokémon Trainer
 * -2 Ike
 * -1 Lucas
 * -3 Mario
 * -2 Ness
 * +1 Yoshi
 * -3 Samus
 * +1 Jigglypuff
 * +2 Captain Falcon
 * -2 Link
 * -1 Ganondorf


 * Greatest Rise = Sonic +8
 * Greatest Fall = Lucario, Donkey Kong, and Zelda -4 Unknown  the   Hedgehog  20:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Link
He might have the worst recovery in the game (Ganondorf is also tied for this) but 2nd last!? He has and excellent projectile game, DACUS, the 4th best momentum canceling (tied with Donkey Kong), he is heavy, Zair, powerful aerial attacks and ground attacks, powerful throws, he deserves to be at least in the D or C Tier but not THAT low. Zeldasmash (talk) 12:52, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You got the fourth best momentum cancelling wrong, he's tied with Donkey Kong for the fourth best maximum vertical endurance. His horizontal momentum cancelling is not as good as his vertical momentum cancelling and combined that with his terrible recovery, you got a character who is KO'd rather easily when launched horizontally. The result, Link is difficult for those who rely on vertical KO moves to KO, but those with reliable horizontal KO moves as well as a strong edgeguard game will not have too much trouble KOing Link. As for his throws, only his up throw is powerful and even then it's not strong enough to make a difference. His projectile game also is not excellent. His arrows barely produce any knockback while the Gale Boomerang is very weak and it's vacuum effect only helps in certain situations. While Link does have powerful aerials, those that are powerful (fair, dair, uair) have long durations and landing lag, which means should Link miss with these aerials, he is very vulnerable to punishment, especially in the case of the dair. As for his ground attacks, his tilts are powerful but his smashes are below average when compared to other smash attacks, except in the case of the sweetspot of the second slash of his forward smash, which is also very difficult to land. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 13:18, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

True, Link has more lags then Peter Griffin has fat, but he isn't 2nd place horrible. Especially when compared to Zelda and Jigglypuff. Maybe 6 places from the bottom.Drakon64 (talk) 18:00, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Commentary
I'm likely to make another one (see link on my page), but here's my quick takes:
 * The list itself: Glad to see MK and Snake are back in to regular tiers.
 * Lucas: I still don't like him being that low.
 * Sheik: Ahead of Zelda? Didn't see that coming.  I kinda agree with it, I guess.
 * Wario: Another surprise. I had a feeling he'd move up, but not that far.  I disagree with him being ahead of G&W, Falco, and Dedede.
 * Toon Link moved up!!!
 * Biggest surprise: WTF@SONIC?!? Anyone who saw that coming needs to lay off the drugs.  I'd like to hear an explanation on that one for sure.

That's all for now. Expect an actual page on it later on my page.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 22:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, Lucas is my best character. Considerable versatility, obscenely potent smash attacks, and the fact that he totes a tether grab. But he's ranked at E. To be honest, the entire tier system is a bit of a crock. Any character can beat any other depending on circumstances, skill, luck, and the style of the player using it, to say that one character is inferior to any other is foolish at best. Who decides this anyway? The game is meant to be enjoyed and played for entertainment, not to stick it to people and mock their choices in style. Exdeath64 (talk) 05:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is Captain Falcon still at the bottom? He is my main. Also, when I pit CPU vs CPU, Captain Falcon beat Meta Knight. He is not a bottom tier character. DRTJR (talk) 12:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, please sign your comments with nothing more than ~ . You do not need to put your username first - it will automatically fill that in for you when you use ~ . Secondly, Captain Falcon is a bottom tier character because smashers who main Captain Falcon very rarely win tournaments. The matchup between Meta Knight and Captain Falcon is 20:80 in Meta Knight's favour - this means that for every 5 matches played between two players of identical skill on a neutral stage with no items, Meta Knight is expected to win 4 times, and Captain Falcon is expected to win 1 time. This does not mean that Captain Falcon cannot beat Meta Knight, just that Meta Knight is much more likely to win. If you pit a Captain Falcon CPU vs a Meta Knight CPU of the same level on a neutral stage with no items, Captain Falcon can still win, and, given that he's expected to win 1 in every 5 matches, it's not very surprising when he does win. I hope that clears everything up.  Penguin  of  Death   13:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My Captain Falcon must be intelligent because Falcon on my CPU beats meta knight 3/2 and never loses to Snake almost the same with Ganondorf DRTJR (talk) 14:29, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * CPU's prove nothing, kid. Watch the pros fight on YouTube instead. It's a lot more exciting and fulfilling. -  GalaxiaD  Talk 17:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrong, scrub. Fighting low level CPUs is actually one of the best methods of training. Watching and learning from videos is a nice incentive, but actions speak louder than visuals.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  20:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Falcon lacks a safe approach, resulting in terrible matchups. He has no advantage matchup at all and top tier beat Captain Falcon so if people know how to stop Captain Falcon's approaches, then he is a terrible character just like Ganondorf. Firewario (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I could steer the topic back to DRTJR's second comment: "My Captain Falcon must be intelligent". That's entirely possible. If you play as Captain Falcon far more than you play as Meta Knight, due to the fact that the CPUs in Brawl can learn strategies from human players, Captain Falcon will have improved more than Meta Knight, so Captain Falcon may become more likely to win. When training, level 9 CPUs are useful, but even they aren't good enough to be used to determine tier placements. Tiers are determined by rankings in tournaments between human players. It doesn't matter if CPU players can beat each other, as the CPUs are not always of exactly the same skill even if they're the same level.  Penguin  of  Death   21:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's what I think: CPUs are not as good as pros, that much is plainly obvious. That doesn't mean that they're worthless in training (level 5 CPUs are supposed to be the best training option, or something like that), but a CPU should never beat an experienced player.  Now I don't know if DRTJR was talking about CPU vs. CPU or himself vs. CPU, so I can't draw much of anything from what he said.  If it was the player who loses most of the time, then (I hate to sound mean) it's not that the CPU is good, but rather that you suck.  Or are just inexperienced.  CPU vs. CPU is a little different because they were programmed to be evenly matched with each other.  They don't know any AT's or elaborate combos (most of the time), so to me it's essentially random who wins and loses a CPU vs CPU fight.  I have no opinion on  the whole "CPU learns strategies" argument (I really can't come to a conclusion over who is right), but I do know for sure that when you start the game for the first time, all CPUs are evenly matched. Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 21:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, but it's not like we can set the CPU to pro-level that easily. And it's not like we can call one up and play them whenever we feel like it. Right, they aren't capable of any ATs, but the point is for you to practice ATs on them.  Blue  Ninjakoopa  21:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh just go to the AiB ladder and get owned and learn what they did. Smoreking (T)  (c)  23:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am happy to have sparked an intelligent debate. DRTJR (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I really think Olimar should b moved down to 27th. He really is bad Tylersb7 (talk) 04:43, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Might I inquire, why? 4DJONG

Wario isn't that bad, people...
You guys can throw whatever disadvantage Wario has at us (me and FireWario, assuming he's helping) and we will counter it with something to get by that flaw. At TourneyPlay, M2K fought FICTION and FICTION beat him, 3-1 iirc. The best MK and the best Wario fighting and the Wario winning is excellent. Wario deserves his spot in 3rd place. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MK and Snake are still better. Smoreking (T)  (c)  15:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well duh. I'm just saying that he deserves his place in third. MK vs. Wario is 50:50, though. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you give me a link to a good Wario video? I've never seen a decent Wario in action.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 16:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * here JtM =^&#93; (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nice! I'm surprised Fiction only used DACUS once, though.  I thought it was Wario's best ground option.   Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 00:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wario doesnt even need his ground game to be good. JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not that he doesn't deserve the spot, I just never would've thought he'd make third. 5th, maybe, but still...then again, if it can take out M2K, by all means, give him 3rd. Shade 487  z  02:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Who the hell said Wario was bad?  Blue  Ninjakoopa  19:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 or 3 sections up JtM =^&#93; (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wario is a fat man that can fly. That's how ridiculously good he is. In my opinion, he's one of the best characters in the game and definitely deserves his place in the tier list.
 * His aerial mobility is incredible. He moves faster in the air than on the ground, and I think he's easier to maneuver than Yoshi or Jigglypuff (the only two characters who surpass Wario in terms of horizontal air movement); Yoshi's jumping is too obnoxious, and Jigglypuff is too light and floaty. Wario is a heavy-weight (and therefore hard to kill), yet in the air he displays magnificent grace, gliding through the air with an ease that belies his obesity.
 * Wario can kill easily too. He probably has the best killing potential in the game; he can KO a character as low as 50% with his half-charged waft, which also comes out fast and can catch an opponent unawares (most people expect the fully-charged fart). His Uair is is also quick and powerful, with high priority and a hitbox that covers nearly his whole body. And his forward smash is broken; it's strong, fast, and has SA frames! Not to mention that he can gimp pretty well too.
 * There's so much more about Wario that makes him such an awesome character: his amazing recovery; the variety of approaches in his diposal; his unpredictability; his great punishing abilities; his aerial grab (Chomp); his grab game in general; his ability to avoid grabs (vulnerability to grab-releases is one of his few weaknesses)... but then I'd have to type out several pages about them. He's so underrated. More people need to play as him. I mean, the only good Warios are Fiction and... Reflex, I think? And look at all the people who play Metaknight. 166.61.238.40 17:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually his problem is killing power his side smash wont kill most characters until about 80%.His fart has too little range for me I only use it fully charged

Please sign your comment. And range isn't a problem for Wario because his aerial mobility is amazing and he is unpredictable anyway, if you have as high skill as me you wouldn't say such things.Firewario (talk) 14:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea how to sign it like u so i dont do it.And I challenge u to brawl.Ben Sedai (talk) 11:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just put ~ after your post to sign your comments.  Cheez person  { talk } stuff ''' 01:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think wario is middle tier at best. Keep in mind that these are only opinions people, and in my opinion wario is not very good. --Popie (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I think falco Is ```WAY``` to High, Toon link still is low, Captain Falcon is way too Low, same with Ganondorf, Marth should Take Falco's Spot and Mario should take Ganondorf's current Spot DRTJR (talk) 14:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree and sonic is also WAY too high and rose way too fast to be natural, by the way, how many times is he likely to win per Tournament? 4DJONG (talk)

The reason why sonic rose that quickly is that low tiers can rise and fall that quickly. Sonic won or got high places in many tournaments. Just look at the Texas power rankings for example or Malcolm. He was underrused when the game came out. I don't expect him to gain another 6 ranks again. If anything I guess for him to gain 2. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 15:08, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Bowser
Why is he so high? He counters no one except for Ganon and CF. Also, he's never used in touraments according to SWF. Even Jiggly has better matchups. 98.117.158.220 01:46, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer, outside of the forums. He does have bad matchups...but he also has some moderately good ones due to a really good grab release. Jigglypuff can't kill.--KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 18:34, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jiggly has several KO moves: Down special, Uair, dair, standard special, and forward smash. Jiggly has way better matchups. If fact, she counters him. 98.117.158.220 20:25, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * None of these moves have enough range and it is very difficult to combo into any of them to to low hitstun. Combine with this that Jigglypuff is incredibly light and has bad range and Jigglypuff will die quickly and can't kill well. Ill go through each of the moves:

Down special: very difficult to combo into outside of down air, but at these percents, Jigglypuff can't usually kill if someone has good DI. Leaves jigglypuff wide open if there is a miss usually to death if Jigglypuff isn't below 30 damage Up air: Bad range, low power, low priority. light set ups. Standard special: Just block or if you are at low percents, you can actually be hit by it and hit jigglypuff with a move. Loses to all projectiles. No setups Forward Smash: Horrible range, low priority for a smash move. Nothing to set up into it If you do not know, Jigglypuff's main kill moves in Brawl are Forward Air and DACUS into up smash. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 17:13, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Jiggly counters bowser, making him even worse. So, again, why is bowser so high? 98.117.158.220 23:15, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not matter if Jigglypuff counters Bowser. I do not believe you understand what makes a tier list. Lets say there was a character in brawl that countered Metaknight but had a bad matchup vs everyone else. he would still be a lower tier than Metaknight because of his other bad matchups (That character would be most likely in Mid tier). it is matchups overall and the metagame of the characters overall that influence tier lists. Single matchups usually barely effect the tier list unless it is against a top/high character. Neither Bowser or Jigglypuff are high tier. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 17:52, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I was not clear enough. Bowser has worse matchups than Jiggly. In fact, he has worse matchups than even link. Why is Bowser any higher than bottom tier? 98.117.158.220 01:44, December 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer that, its due to having a good grab release. Bowser, even though similarly to the other low/bottom/mid tiers has bad results, he still has stuff going for him. Jigglypuff cannot KO. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 20:49, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes she can. How about this? I'll list all he KO moves for you: dair, uair, wall of pain, rest, rollout, and fsmash. Happy? Besides, I was just using Jiggly as an example. What about Ike? Ness? Mario? How are they worse than Bowser. And in your next reply if you only say stuff about Jiggly then I'll deduce that's your only argument. 98.117.158.220 20:54, December 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I won't just say about Jigglypuff. Ike has a horrible recovery and has one big thing different than bowser, he has bad use of grabs and has even slower moves outside of tap and back air. Ike also has a struggling matchup vs All top/high tiers and can barely do anything vs projectiles. Ness can be grab infinited by many different characters, grab released by others, and has an abusable recovery. Mario is very predictable and has difficulty killing if someone knows how to play the matchup. Also very similarly, bowser has better matchups than mario vs the top/high tiers outside of Falco. The main problem for bowser is Falco and King D3 who happens to be good vs every single character you listed due to their approach/grab range outside of slightly mario. Mario also happens to have 0 tournament. Another thing to describe is that in comparison to Mario and Jigglypuff, Bowser has overall better tournament results. Also, by the way how does Down air or Up air Kill below 150 (for down air, does it ever kill)? Isn't F-smash overly predictable, rollout has low priority, and Wall of Pain, or really F-air and Back air, has bad range and bad priority? Technically, btw anyone below even High tier has virtually no chances in major tournaments anyway. Its not like bowser is good, its just that he is slightly better --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 07:06, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * The tourney thing is wrong. SWF recently released a ranking of the most often used characters. Bowser was sixth from bottom, in the never used catagory. Jiggly was the worst, so I'll stop talking about her. However, Bowser should at least be in one tier lower. His KO moves are laggy and predictable, has no good projectile or approach attack. He can easily be chain grabed and has one of the worst recoveries in the game. As far as I know, his grabs arn't very good. He only has flying slam, which is very hard to use. Bowser can easily be edgeguarded. By the way, you haven't said a thing about Ness having way better matchups than Bowser. And you can probably find flaws in every character, even Meta Knight. The thing is, Bowser has more flaws than the characters I listed above. Ness has the best grabs in the game, can easily trap opponents in PK fire, has an exellent Dair spike, and posseses the most powerful projectile in the game: PK flash. Finnaly, I wan't to counter the following argument before it's brought up. Bowser was buffed from melee, but so was Ness, who now has an even worse ranking. P.S.:I like this argument. 98.117.158.220 20:34, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of laggy moves, PK Flash is not useful due to how slow it is. Also, if you don't think Bowser's grabs are good, go to the smashboards forum and look at the Bowser guide. Look even at the entire gigantic thread on his grab alone. Ness's grabs are only good for killing, there are many characters I can think of with much better gabs (Falco, King D3, Snake, MK, and Bowser at lower percents for examples). Bowser's f-air works as an approach, same thing for many other moves. PK fire can be DI'd out of and Ness doesn't have the range to avoid being grab release infinited. And yes, Bowser can be chain grabbed, so can Ness. Both of them have a horrible matchup vs Falco and King D3 due to grab releases/chain grabs. Also Flying slam can be used to approach, as for using Quick Claw cancelling. Bowser's OOS Up b is great if the opponent uses any laggy move. Bowser's f-tilt has massive range and down air is great at killing. As I said before, its not like Bowser or Ness are actually technically good characters, its just that Bowser is better at standing vs many of the other characters. BTW, Ness's recovery is one of the reasons why Ness is such a low tier. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 07:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Tiers are based of of tourny results. As I said, SWR released a chart that ranks the most often used characters in tourneys. Bowser was in the bottom, along with Jiggly, Ganon, C. Falcon, and Link. Pk flash is not and unreliable KO move. It can easily be aimed at characters in the air or stunned characters. And what good are grabs if they can't KO? Ness also posseses a powerful reflector side smash as well as a move that can absorb any energy attack and heal himself. Ness has very good aerial attacks such as his Dair, a very powerful meteor smash. What does Bowser have? Lag and no reliable KO moves. I just don't see how his grabs are that good. He's easily edge guarded and his only projectle can only be used for a small amount of time. And I'm not biased against him. In fact, he's one of my mains. However, I'm not a pro and my strategy is to spam his B side and B down, which isn't a good Idea in tournys. Plus, he has worse matchups than even link, I belive. He counters pretty much no one except for C falcon and Ganon. Every other matchups is against him or even. Ness counters quite a lot of other characters, many of which are higher than him, such as Lucas. 98.117.158.220 20:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * A few things:

--KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 03:40, January 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tiers are not only based only off of tourney results. Tiers are based off of the metagame of said character. It refers to matchups and tourney results.
 * PK flash is not reliable, It is incredibly laggy up to KO percents and due to the ability for people to grab ledges incredibly easily, it is impossible to hit someone unless the opponent is bad at sweet-spotting. The majority of characters who's projectiles can be reflected can jump over the reflected projectile and then hit Ness before his f-smash comes back due to its high ending lag. Similarly, no one can use Ness's down b due to its lag at the end. You can be hit out of it.
 * The best grabs in any smash game are grabs that combo into moves or into itself. Falco, King D3, and IC's has the best grab in brawl due to their chain grab ability. Yoshi has a good grab even though it can't kill due to grab releases. Same thing applies to bowser but to a slightly greater extent. Ness has a bad dash grab with barely any range preventing him from many kills using grabs.
 * Ness's down air is good, Ill give you that, so is his up air, back air, f-air, and his forward b at lower percents.
 * Bowser's KO moves are F-air, down b on the ground (due to its original hitbox), down smash, down tilt, and slightly forward b, even though his Forward b is used mostly for approach due to claw cancelling. Bowser can also kill any character with grab release into sometimes up air, and at virtually every percent, f-air outside of characters that can get out of it (floaties). Bowser's main approach is f-air, Claw cancelling, f-tilt, and B (due to its ability to aim and slightly combo. Bowser usually doesn't need to approach too often due to great out of shield approaches (Up B as one great example).
 * How bout this? Let's list the characters Bowser counters. There's Ganondorf, and there's C Falcon. What do you mean, grab release? I'm sure that if you simply repeat the good things about a character, you can make Ganondorf seem like the best. Let's look at the statistics: Bowser is never used in tourneys, has one of the worst matchups in the game, has a predictable recovery, lag, a horrible crouch, poor projectile, and two moves that can KO him if he does them wrong. Let's see what Ness has: decent matchups, powerful projectiles (in every way), an amazing recovery (if mastered), and the most powerful throws in the game (now that Mewtwo's no longer in the series). 98.117.158.220 04:04, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

a little bit more space
Just wanted to make a little bit more space. Ill tell you exactly what grab releasing is. Grab releasing means to grab someone, and then due to brawl physics, be able to let them go and hit them out of it or even regrab them. A grounded grab release, for example vs DK with Bowser leads to down tilt or f-tilt. Its an actual combo that can't be DI'd out of. An aerial grab release, which happens vs MK automatically, allows bowser to F-air and occasionally back air and even forward b out of it. Another example is Yoshi vs virtually everyone and almost everyone vs Wario. I don't know why you think Ness has a good recovery. You can jump into it or hit him before he up b's. If Ness had the recovery of Metaknight or at least someone a tier or 2 above him, I would consider ness for even upper Mid tier. The other huge problem Ness suffers from bad grab releases. He can be infinited by Marth and others due to having a bad grab release. Ness can grab release infinite himself by dash grabbing after each grab if next to a wall or at least do it until you hit the edged of a stage. Ness happens to have one of the worst teetering animations in the game (which is why its so easy to grab release him) The only characters with a worse one are Rob and Wario (due to their prolonged Air dodge). I said Bowser has a lot of weaknesses. Due to his slow moves he usually is comboed incredibly heavily. He also, similarly to ness, has a very bad weakness to grabs. It doesn't matter if Ness has a bad throw, Ness usually combos into a throw using either f-air or foward b, both of them that can be DI'd out of. Ness's best projectile by far is Forward b, outside of up b mindgames but even forward b can be DI'd out of...unless the opponent is Ice climbers. A powerful throw isn't always a good throw. the best throws as I said are combo based throws. I want to bring up everything for comparison in 1 simple list:
 * Bowser has a better throw, for both killing and comboing, due to grab releases and due to bigger range
 * Bowser has a better teetering animation
 * Ness is better at avoiding grabs but has a worse teetering animation
 * Bowser due to Super Armor, has a better up b
 * Ness has overall a much better aerial set
 * Bowser is overall better grounded
 * Both of them have a 30-70 matchup or below vs 2 specific characters (King D3 and Falco vs Both) and have 40-60 or below vs the majority of others
 * Neither character has major offline support outside of a few people, specifically FOW for Ness
 * Both characters are similar but overall Bowser does better vs the best characters. Ness is by far a better character vs mid tiers and low tiers but Bowser does better vs Snake and MK. --KoRoBeNiKi (talk) 18:05, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine, guess we've reached a truce. Now, if you excuse me, I have to rant about some other things. 98.117.158.220 03:51, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Zelda and Sheik
Why do they have seperate positions? Yeah, you're all going to say "they have different movesets and different play styles." Still, though, shouldn't Zelda/shiek have her own spot on the tier list? Here's why. When playing as them, the player has the ability to change between them at any time. For example, the player can use Sheik and her fast, damaging moves to rack up damage on the opponent, then change to Zelda with her strong, magical, KO moves to KO the opponent. Thus, the player can balance between the two characters depending on whoever is better at the moment. Mr. Anon teh awsome 17:37, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the main point is that Zelda/Sheik players are far more rare than those who only use one at a time, and it's not easy to find a place during a battle where you can switch. It's not like Pokémon Trainer where switching is inevitable. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  17:54, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The change takes too long to be effective in competitive play. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 18:35, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I know that the change takes a little while, but aren't you invincible while transforming? Mr. Anon teh awsome 19:34, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that's not the point; the opponent gets a fair amount of time to recover and set up for the vulnerability period afterwards. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  19:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I completely agree with you there, Zelda and Sheik should have their own placement, and that goes for Samus and Zero suit too. Doc King (talk) 20:44, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, even if few people play as Zelda and Shiek together competetively, why should that exclude them a position? No one competetively plays as Pichu, but he still has a position on the list. Mr. Anon teh awsome 02:22, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * T0mmy. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:42, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, though, I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find one or two smashers that switch between Zelda ans Shiek during gameplay. Mr. Anon teh awsome 04:39, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm I'm one of them. I still feel that they belong in seprate tiers, as (at best) you will switch once per match.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:09, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that they should have seperate tiers to themselves, but there should also be a position for both of them together. Mr. Anon teh awsome  Anon  Sir Anon  the great  04:38, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

Update, I don't like to brag about things like this much, but... I TOLD YOU SO! Zelda and Shiek now have their own tier. Maybe we should make an article called [Zelda and Shiek (SSBB)]]? Mr. Anon teh awsome Anon  Sir Anon  the great  02:58, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think an article is necessary. What could we put on it? Not much that isn't duplicated elsewhere. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 03:09, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Zelda (SSBB) article only has the attributes about playing matches entirely with Zelda, and a similar thing with Shiek's article. A Zelda and Shiek article would show the advantages and disadvantages of switching between the characters' at will. As you can see, their position is higher than either one. And I don't think strategies about playing as both characters are mentioned on either pages. Mr. Anon teh awsome  Anon  Sir Anon  the great  03:19, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't see how having a seperate article will help, since we can just put something like "switch under these conditions" on both pages and it should be all the needed info. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 03:33, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. Do you know anyone who is particularly knowledgable about this new metagame, by any chance? Mr. Anon teh awsome  Anon  Sir Anon  the great  03:35, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ganondorf
I say that Ganondorf should get some sort of rise for his power. I do believe that there is a point at where someone with all that power gets an advantage. In addition, I should say that a few of his specials prove to be quite useful. His Wizards foot, it helps him when trying to hit the ground. It also causes a small shock wave when he lands on the ground. I do see the problem of its ending lag however. His dash attack. His dash attack is possibly one great example of his moves. The places Ganon would really shine at is with more people. I have to say that some of his aerials while some being slow to start and sometimes hard to hit, are possibly some of his strongest attacks. His d-air if landed does a great amount of damage. His n-air is possible one of the overlooked attacks. It strikes with hardly any startup-lag.

Now Ganon has his speed set to the second lowest, and his recovery is poor and predictable, but if a good enough player can keep him on the stage, then he could prove to be a great player. (I may add the negative things about him, but at least I know I read about him.) Also, if someone won with him in a Tourney, that would change everything. Learner4 (talk) 12:22, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing is, no one has won a tourney with Ganondorf. While his power is great (I would say Ike is the only character who is stronger), this great power is render almost useless when Ganondorf has massive flaws that are easily exploitable. About every character has something that they can exploit Ganondorf's massive flaws with, which results in losing matchups against about every character in the game. The only characters Ganondorf can manage are those who lack projectiles, chain throws, many fast attacks that string together, long reaching disjointed hitboxes in many attacks, and a strong defensive game. I'm not going to go through all of Ganondorf's flaws in great detail since it has been done so many times already elsewhere on this Wiki. Now before you label me as a Ganondorf hater, I do play as Ganondorf and he is one of my favorite characters. However, I recognise these flaws and lost matches with him when my opponent exploited them. As such, while I may play Ganondorf well, I would never use him in a match where the outcome matter. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 12:44, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't lable anyone as a hater of any character. I do know that he does have some flaws, but I believe that he could do better than dead last. Learner4 (talk) 18:15, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there are those who hate Ganondorf for being such a poor character and there are those who tend to label those who say Ganondorf is a poor character as Ganondorf haters. At this point, I honestly don't see how he could rise out of dead last, especially considering how terrible his matchups are. Maybe someday Link will be considered worse, or Jigglypuff, or Samus. But as of now, I don't see that happening and while I like him much more than these characters, I do not see him as being better than last. But him being last does give me motivation for winning with him as it should you. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 18:47, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Pokemon trainer
Why is he so low? The back room said that he had potential, but apparently not enough people play as him well to earn him a high spot. What the heck?! A tier list is suppposed to be a ranking of characters at their best. If a character is known to be theoretically good, why aren't they high tier? Just because people can't play well with them doesn't mean they should be given a low tier. Mr. Anon teh awsome Anon  Sir Anon  the great  16:39, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. A matchup does that. A tier list is based on matchups, statistics, tournament results, and such.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:43, September 25, 2010 (UTC)