Talk:Tabuu's Residence

Name
How is this stage's name known? Zixor (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It isn't. Master Hand's stage in the N64 SSB was known as Master Hand's Residence before the name "Final Destination" was retroactively applied from Melee. This just follows that pattern until we know more details.  Miles ( talk)   04:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

How was that stage known as Master Hand's Residence? Zixor (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That was just the name that fans and players called it until Melee gave its equivalent a name. Master Hand's Residence is still a redirect to Final Destination (SSB).  I doubt it ever had much of an official name; the same applies here with Tabuu's Residence.  Miles ( talk)   04:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Disc sides
Why does it matter where on the disc the information is stored? I was under the impression that drives could access any portion of a disc at any time. Zixor (talk) 04:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that the Brawl two-sided disc has had problems; however, I'm not quite sure how viable that info is. Miles ( talk)   04:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Brawl two-sided disk?" What is that?  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 05:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The Brawl disk is divided in two parts. SSE, and then the rest of it. Because of limitations, hacking does not allow access to combine both. Melee for example, you could play on Adventure in 2P. Can't be done on Brawl because of the disk's design. - MahBoiDude 74.197.1.45 04:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still unclear on why this is technologically a problem. I'm interested in more information. This seems like something that should be fleshed out in an article. Zixor (talk) 04:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not super-informed on this, as in down to the technological advanced stuff about the entire disk composition, but I just know the double-sided disk is a problem. I'm sure a pro hacker can give you the specifics. MahBoiDude (talk) 04:29, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, then you should remove the "Hacking" part in the "Availability" cell. We'll never play on this stage.198.168.103.211 13:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Not double sided, double layered. Now, I'm not perfectly informed about this, but here's what I can gather: That silver side of the disc has the data written on it. The creators of Smash had a lot of data, so they layered more silver on top of the original silver, creating a double sided disc which requires a special laser (lasers read the disc, all Wii's come equipped with their own special laser but there have been issues with them in the past). And people have hacked to play on Tabuu Destination before, its as simple as clicking and dragging the data from one folder to another. (NOTE: I can't verify any of this, this is just what I heard) Paradox Juice (talk) 23:44, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yes Brawl is double layered, SSE in one, the rest in the other. Very long story short, a group of people were able to access the hidden layer's ISO. Then using the program Brawlbox, were able to use the data to replace regular Brawl stages (mostly Wi-fi waiting room due to the simplicity).03:09, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Delete
Is this really necessary as an article? If it was an actual stage, then that's one thing, but it's not. It's just a platform that appears as part of a stage. We don't have articles about Galleom's arena or Ridley's arena, so what is the point of this? Mr. Anon (talk) 21:26, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * Final boss stage gets article. It's why Master Hand's Residence has merited an article for the 10 years since SSB64.  Miles ( talk)   21:29, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * ^-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 21:29, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * Again, Master Hand's Residence is a stage. This is a specific part of a much bigger stage. Mr. Anon (talk) 21:34, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * It is still a stage nonetheless. He's a final boss and AiB put it as a card. How is that relevant? Just shows popularity.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 21:35, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * Again, it's not a stage, but a part of one. Would the platform where you fight the Yoshi's in Mushroom Kingdom Adventure warrant an article? Because it's just as notable as this. Mr. Anon (talk) 21:44, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * It isn't :/. Did you not hear Miles? Final boss gets an article. Yoshi's are definitely not a final boss.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 21:45, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * He did not explain why Final Boss arenas deserve articles. The first two Final Destination's get articles since they are actual stages. Mr. Anon (talk) 21:48, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * Another point to add: This info could easily be explained in the Great Maze, considering this article can be summed up in only 2-3 sentences. Mr. Anon (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * The Melee one is a multiplayer stage and most certainly merits mention. The standing policy is that final boss stages merit an article.  Would you actually be in favor of deleting FD64's article?  Miles ( talk)   22:11, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * I have repeated myself so many times; FD64 IS A STAGE. THIS IS NOT. This is just a platform where you fight Tabuu. It is part of the Great Maze. If fighting Tabuu was a different level, then this could be considered a stage. And what Melee stage are you talking about? Mr. Anon (talk) 23:49, 7 November 2010 (EST)
 * Um, think logically here Anon. FD64 would be considered not a stage as well. It is "just a platform that comes right after Duel Zone or whatever BF is". This has individual music, new arena, new character. It teleports you right after you enter the damn door. After you beat the Fighting Polygon Team, they teleport you to FD64. See the similirarites? If you do not consider this a stage, FD64 is not a stage. Simple as that.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 00:00, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * The difference here is that FD64 is a level in it's own right. Unlike SSE, SSB64's OPG provides no info on how the player gets from various stages to the next. Thus the game sees this as it's own level. Unlike FD64, Tabuu's platform is literally a part of another level. The game says so.
 * Another reason why we shouldn't have an article about this is that it simply is insignificant. If we allow an article about Tabuu's residence, why not articles about the Galleom battlefields? Or Ridley's stage? FD64 is significant because not only is it a level in it's own right, but also because it appears in more than one game and has an official name, unlike Tabuu's platform. Mr. Anon (talk) 00:10, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * Learn the difference between it's and its. Insignificant is not correct. Domain of final boss. We are covering final boss locations. The arguments really can't go any further than that and the current argument is about whether or not this is a level. Final boss locations is all that is needed. Tabuu's platform can not appear in more than one game now can it? FD64 is not its own level at any point if you go up to what Nintendo says. You however call it a level. Even without no evidence of how players get from various stages and such, how can you say it is a level? It is a postulate in some way. You can't prove that it is a level but you can't prove it isn't either. You just accept that it is. Why can't you simply accept that we just need to cover final boss places? There's no reason to cover Master Hand's residence since it is not a real level. However, we do cover it because it is a final boss location and it is simply there. Following suit, Tabuu's Residence can be considered part of a level, but it is an end point of the game. The whole story of the game ends right there. The whole "storyline" of SSB ends at FD64. Since Tabuu's Residence is simply the end of the storyline and the location of the final boss, it deserves its own article more than Galleom's desert battle field or Ridley's platform. The others have been deemed insignificant for some reason I do not know and that I don't have the time to figure out either. It does not matter if it is not a level, it is still a final location where everything ends.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 00:23, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * "A stage (sometimes called a map or board) is a location in which characters fight or complete objectives."
 * Tabuu's Residence seems to fit this description well. There's not much else to say that Mega hasn't already said. Unknown the  Hedgehog  00:30, 8 November 2010 (EST)

From reading this, the opposition of the deletion argument rests on that final boss stages get articles. I have to ask Miles, where does it say in any policy that final boss stages get articles? I just finish reading them all, and I did not see that mentioned or implied anywhere. You shouldn't push your own opinion as standing policy as I do not think you or any individual in particular single handily decides the policies. I'll have to say that Mr.Anon is right, and this article should be merged with the Great Maze, or the rest of the places where you fight bosses should get articles. I will also have to say a nonofficial fan website such as AiB creating some sort of a nonofficial card for this doesn't equal significance and meriting an article on the SmashWiki. When I look at this, there is nothing that separates this from the Great Maze stage, and there is nothing in the article that couldn't be covered there. This is overall, a "substage", as you may say, and not its own individual stage. You do not clear the Great Maze and "Tabuu's Residence" separately, you clear them together. I'll also like to point out, that unlike "Tabuu's Residence", which is a part of the Great Maze, the boss stages in the original SSB were their own separate stages that were cleared separately, which is why they get articles, and "Tabuu's Residence" should not. Garo 108  06:37, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * We are merely following a pattern. FD64 and BF64 did not have official names until this year. Before then, we followed the design pattern of them. FD64 and FD Melee are final stages. Tabuu's Residence is a final stage. Though yes, you can consider it a part of the Great Maze and all bosses should have stage articles. The other bosses are not as notable as Tabuu however. You simply can not deny that. Tabuu has a greater priority than the remaining 5 boss stages yet to have an article. We tend to follow patterns. FD64 would never be named FD64 if we did not follow stage patterns. Final boss locations have 2 articles, so why not start a 3rd for the SSE? Already, Duon and Galleom's ruin stages have individual articles. The Falcon Flyer would be Meta Ridley's, so why describe it if you can simply say he is fought there? That reduces the remaining bosses (excluding Tabuu) to 4, Galleom in the desert, Ridley, Rayquaza, and Porky. They however are simple transitions that don't involve much things releated to it. Tabuu is simply more notable than the rest, which is why he gets an article when the others don't. Also, some policies don't exist. Userpage policies, notablity policies for non smashers, what's a proper noun or not, and the like. We simply know what's expected and follow it.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 10:27, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * You never addressed my point that "Tabuu's Residence" is not it's own separate stage, while FD64 and the other boss stages of SSB64 are. "Tabuu's Residence" is not its own stage, and is part of the Great Maze. You don't clear the Great Maze, see the clear screen, then go back to the map to pick "Tabuu's Residence", as the latter is a part of the former, which means they are not separate stages. And likewise, should you make it to Tabuu but get game over, if you go back to the map, the Great Maze is not cleared. It's simply no argument, "Tabuu's Residence" is not its own separate stage, it is part of the Great Maze. As for The Ruins and Battleship Halberd Bridge, they are their own stage, regardless of the bosses being there, unlike "Tabuu's residence". So them having articles doesn't support your argument at all. For this "pattern" you speak of, having an article on the Great Maze fulfills this "pattern" you're trying to achieve, as it is the final stage and is the stage where you fight Tabuu. And imo, Tabuu doesn't have any more "priority" or significance over the other bosses to the point where the place you fight him in gets an article, and the places for the other bosses do not. If the place you fight him in gets an article, the place you fight the other bosses should as well.


 * For you last statement about how you're expected to follow such and such, you shouldn't claim something to be a "standing policy", when it isn't mentioned anywhere in any of policies. Garo  108  10:51, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * There's a difference here between standing official policy and what's more of a SmashWiki-minhag. It's really just the accepted standard at this point in time that final boss stages merit an article.  Period.   Miles ( talk)   17:10, 8 November 2010 (EST)


 * I'm just going to drop this now and concede, since this is going nowhere. Mr. Anon (talk) 20:55, 8 November 2010 (EST)
 * You even claimed it yourself that it's a "standing policy". As you said "The standing policy is that final boss stages merit an article." when there is absolutely no such policy. So don't go claiming such fallacies. When I took a look around the Wiki, I found no discussion about if "final boss stages" merited an article, and it seems to me you're just pushing your own belief as the belief of the Wiki. You and two other people =/= the consensus of the Wiki. You too failed to address my point on how "Tabuu's Residence" is not a separate stage from the Great Maze. If you had a section on "Tabuu's Residence" on the Great Maze article (as it should be), you still achieve your intent of having an article for every final boss stage, as having an article on the Great Maze fulfills that, (which is the final boss stage as it is the stage you fight Tabuu in). You also did not explain how Tabuu being a final boss gives him enough significance to where the places you fight the other bosses do not get their own article. So please, don't just say "this is how things are done around here" and address my points, especially when there is nothing existent on the Wiki that backs up what you said. If so, provide the links please. Garo  108  01:35, 9 November 2010 (EST)
 * Let's point out one thing. In case you don't realize yet, you are not teh whoel Wiki either. Tabuu's Residence is a seperate stage but not a level. Tabuu is significant in comparison to every other boss in terms of story line events and everything. Who had control over everything? Tabuu. We do not have a notability policy and yet every trophy only character has been redirected. We do not need a policy now do we? Would we want to got back and make a notability policy when we've just been doing that for a while? We don't need to. SW minhags are common and aren't fought against. The community accepted this. Not just 3 people, the community. We have left this article for months and no one has opposed it. The community did not want this to go away. Only 3 people try to fight your opposition. You can not go around claiming fallacies when you have nothing to say that you are indeed the consensus of a Wiki while every other user is not. He is simply a final boss. Period. The other final boss locations merited a page. This location, not level, should merit a page simply because Tabuu is a final boss. Done.--99.66.204.101 10:38, 9 November 2010 (EST)
 * Again, you have claim yourself as correct with no support to your claim, failed to address my points properly, and even resorted to putting words in my mouth. When did I go claiming I was the community (when you keep acting like you are)? And each time I looked, I found nothing that shows the community accepted this. I only see three users anywhere on the Wiki that said "places where you fight final bosses get articles", while there haven't been any discussion on the Wiki that came to a consensus that you are championing as a "minihag of the Wiki". You made a fallacy yourself by assuming just because no one challenged this article's existence before, it is accepted as being a proper article. I'm sure there have been plenty of articles on this Wiki that existed for a year or so before someone said "hey, why does this have an article?" and then the community decided to delete it. Wiki users can be apathetic at times and an article existing for more than a month doesn't mean a majority of the community reviewed it and decided it was ok. So that point right there is flawed, and doesn't support your argument. You also failed to properly explain how Tabuu is such a more important boss than the other bosses to where the place you fight him gets an article and the places you fight them don't. You can keep on saying how he's the "final boss", but really, is a final boss that much more significant to where something they have that every other boss has gets an article on it while they don't? How about you forget about Tabuu for a second, and ask yourself, what does "Tabuu's Residence" has that every other place you fight a SSE boss doesn't have? As you think about it, it has nothing. And no, "Tabuu's Residence" is not a separate stage from the Great Maze. Instead of simply saying it is its own stage, actually refute my argument on how it is not. Really, I don't see how "Tabuu's Residence" is anymore notable than the places where you fight Rayquaza, Ridley, etc. If you're going to say something like "Tabuu's Residence has a name and they don't", you would be wrong as "Tabuu's Residence" is just a fan name, and if this Wiki accepts fan names for mainspace articles, then you can easily make up a fan name for the places where you fight the other bosses. If one place where you fight a boss gets an article, the other boss places should as well. The final boss really is not that more notable than the other bosses when it comes to getting Wiki articles (I have never visited a Wiki before where the final boss had articles about something they had that every other boss had while they didn't). And imo, Tabuu's Off Waves merit an article more than "Tabuu's Residence", as the former is actually officially named, has an actual role in the SSE story, and is overall, more notable than the place where you fight Tabuu that has no official name or real impact in the game. But when I did checked that, the Off Waves didn't have an article.


 * I also have a question for you, explain how the information in this article can't be put in the Great Maze article? None of you have yet to explain how the article is better itself than in being in the Great Maze.


 * And why you're at it, learn how to argue better. Each of your posts basically consist of unsupported claims of this being "the community's consensus", claiming yourself as correct (with a very poor and unsupported argument) while I'm wrong and should accept the view of three users as the view of the community, and how Tabuu is the "final boss" and therefore gets an article on something that every other boss has but don't have an article. Garo  108  11:50, 9 November 2010 (EST)

Just because there are "accepted standards" and "things are the way they are" doesn't mean people aren't allowed to question them, although pretty much everyone hates it when such happens, because it leads to these kinds of arguments where there's no real proof on either side. So, here's how things look right now:


 * Currently, there is a "Tabuu's Residence" page. It's almost stub-size, though it is not a stub.
 * Like Final Destination, Tabuu's Residence:
 * ...is a stage by the definition of the term.
 * ...is the location where a final boss is fought.
 * Unlike Final Destination, Tabuu's Residence:
 * ...can be argued to be part of a larger whole (the Great Maze), though it is not clear whether it is part of the Great Maze or simply "next to" it.
 * ...is, like most other boss stages in the Subspace Emissary, connected to other stages (as in, you can get to/from it through a door).
 * ...is almost identical in shape and size to other boss stages, making it less unique.
 * ...is viable as a subsection of a page.
 * Most established editors claim that the fact that this is a seperate page is good enough to validate it as deserving one (grandfather clause). This reasoning isn't the best, and could be seen as an "excuse" for not wanting change.
 * Another popular claim is that "final boss stages get articles". I think this is more of a coincidence than a "standard". Final Destination is a playable stage in SSBM and SSBB, so it gets a page without question. It's less clear in SSB64, but it's still its own stage, and non-playable stages get articles (like DUMMY). So all three Final Destination incarnations get a stage page, and it's not because they're final boss stages. So that argument is weak.

So, I say this page gets merged with The Great Maze. The only thing unique about it is that Tabuu is fought there, and that's not really the best way to claim it deserves a page as shown above. The other consistency-implementing option is to make seperate pages for all boss stages, and that's a bigger change than just deleting this one. Toomai Glittershine 11:56, 9 November 2010 (EST)
 * Looking at all this opposition, I can see that the only reason I didn't want this deleted is because of how popular it is and I'm opposed to this kind of change. Merge it.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 21:00, 9 November 2010 (EST)