Talk:Universe

Well! Now this is quite the article. Good job! I "appreciate" it ^^ 19:50, January 30, 2007 (GMT)

Standardizing Universe article names
I think we should decide on standardizing the names of the various universe pages. The site is currently torn between naming its universe pages as the franchises are commonly referred to by the press + (universe) and as the name of each franchise's general world + (universe). It seems we have to choose one naming convention over another, and here's the two alternatives that I got (and for consistency we should choose all of what's in one column over all of what's in the other):

Franchise Name Approach vs. World's Name Approach
 * Mario (universe) vs. Mushroom Kingdom (universe)
 * Donkey Kong (universe) vs. DK Island (universe)
 * Yoshi (universe) vs. Yoshi's Island (universe)
 * The Legend of Zelda (universe) vs. Hyrule (universe)
 * Metroid (universe) vs. Planet Zebes (universe) (This World Name Approach alternative is iffy because Brawl could feature a stage based on a Metroid Prime planet like Tallon IV or Aether, and there doesn't seem to be a name for the galaxy in which all the Metroid universe planets including Zebes appear in.)
 * Kirby (universe) vs. Dream Land (universe)
 * Star Fox (universe) vs. Lylat System (universe) (or should it be Sector Z (universe)?)
 * Pokémon (universe) vs. ??? (I don't think there's a World's Name Approach alternative here because it's an unnamed Pokémon world separated into giant regions with names.)
 * F-Zero (universe) vs. F-Zero Grand Prix (universe) (Is there a name for the F-Zero galaxy?)
 * Earthbound (universe) vs. Eagleland (universe)
 * Ice Climber (universe) vs. Infinite Glacier (universe)
 * Fire Emblem (universe) vs. ??? (a World's Name Approach alternative isn't available because there're many indepent FE worlds with continents-treated-like-worlds like Akaneia and Elibe and Magvel and what not.)
 * Game & Watch (universe) vs. Superflat World (universe)
 * Kid Icarus (universe) vs. Angel Land (universe)
 * Metal Gear (universe) vs. ??? (This series takes place on our own Earth, so the World's Name Approach doesn't look like it would work because we shouldn't have a page called Earth (universe) and expect people to look that up for Metal Gear content)

Looking at what I've got above, it seems much safer and more consistent to call all of the main universe articles by what's in the Franchise Name Approach column, and have the links on the right column redirect to the articles on the left column. In addition, many of the World's Name Approach alternative names in the second column aren't even accurate because, for instance, Zelda games have taken place in areas that are not Hyrule (Termina, for one), while there have been Mario games not set in the Mushroom Kingdom (e.g. Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga are set in the Beanbean Kingdom). I really think all universe articles should be named after what's in the left column to be both accurate and consistent, so I'll start moving and creating the pages shortly if there aren't objections. Erik the Appreciator 18:04, February 19, 2007 (GMT)


 * That sounds fine to me. My only remaining concern is whether we should just scrap the "universe" moniker and start calling them franchises, because that sounds to me like a more logical term to use (and I think it won't require any extra explanation that "universe" might). -- Kirby King 22:07, February 20, 2007 (GMT)


 * Well, I dunno, I think the term Universe is used more often than Franchise at the Smashboards and other forums. Erik the Appreciator 22:19, February 20, 2007 (GMT)


 * Bizarre! I created a one-sentence Game & Watch (universe) page but going there takes you to this other page simply called [Game]] as if it were a redirect, which it isn't, and it doesn't say "Redirected from Game & Watch (universe)" at the top. Click Game & Watch, a page that wasn't ever created for all I know, and the same thing happens: you're at this mysterious page called [Game]], which I now made as a half-page of sorts. Is there a programming error with the site? Erik the Appreciator 22:29, February 20, 2007 (GMT)
 * Click the Superflat World (universe) redirect I just made and you're taken to the Game & Watch universe page I just made. Hmm... Erik the Appreciator 22:32, February 20, 2007 (GMT)


 * We had this problem with Mr. Game & Watch. The Wiki software doesn't like ampersands in the title name.  The best we can do, for now, is use the word "and" instead of "&" and put  at the beginning of the article.  23:49, February 20, 2007 (GMT)


 * I guess we should just treat & as "and" throughout the entire site and make it official as a policy. This programming deficiency certainly isn't as serious as the Green Shell access glitch, however... that would certainly prevent the site from reaching its goals completely, unless this can be fixed somehow. Erik the Appreciator 00:09, February 21, 2007 (GMT)

Emblem Images
It is well known that characters and stages have these emblems as symbols to indicate which franchise and universe they are associated with, so that Mario, Luigi, Bowser, etc. have the emblem that identifies them as part of the Mario universe, that Super Mushroom symbol; Yoshi has the egg symbol as the Yoshi universe's emblem; Donkey Kong universe is identified by a DK symbol; and the Fire Emblem, uh, emblem is the sword image. The Universe articles are divided pretty much by what the emblems represent, so I think pictures of each emblem on top of each respective Universe article would be a great way to start off each page. If anyone can upload images of the character emblems into these pages, that'd be great! Erik the Appreciator 02:24, February 24, 2007 (GMT)

Directory template
Should there be a Universe directory template at the bottom of this page and at the bottom of all the Universe pages? I think that's what a template is for in this case. Right now I have to go to the Universe category or type in the names of universe pages to access them otherwise. Erik the Appreciator 21:01, April 13, 2007 (GMT)

Will upload new fighter pictures
I find that a great way to improve the image setup of the fighters in all the universe pages is to use images like what you see in this Nintendorks image gallery; these are smaller icon-like images that are different from the images on the main fighter pages. They would be easier to fit on the pages so that images for different game versions of the same fighter character can be put on one page. I cropped and saved all those Nintendorks images separately, and I made similar images for all the characters' SSB versions using the SSB images already used on this site. I am ready and willing to upload these for use in the Universe pages. Erik the Appreciator 00:49, May 27, 2007 (GMT)
 * So I did it all, should look a lot better now. Erik the Appreciator 02:02, May 27, 2007 (GMT)

Collectibles subsections
Now that Brawl has revealed three separate categories of collectible items - Trophies, Stickers, and CDs - I'm thinking that a good way to list them all in the Universe articles without having too many subheaders crammed into there would be to have all three of those be merged into larger subsections called Collectibles, so that revealed trophies and Stickers for the Mario series would be listed under a Collectibles subheading in the Brawl section. Having separate subsections for Trophies and Stickers in each page's Brawl section seems awkward because they would have very few items listed underneath each one for now. Thoughts? Erik the Appreciator 03:19, September 24, 2007 (EDT)

"DS universe"?
Today's update shows a new symbol that looks like the two screens of a DS system (and the symbol is named the same way as the other universe symbols). This is certainly bizarre, since it doesn't seem like it's a game franchise with characters, so I would recommend on holding off on making a universe article for that symbol until we got more info. Thoughts? Erik the Appreciator 03:19, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * Agreed. Man, today's update is bizarre in SO many ways. -Thores 03:27, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * Hmm... The reason I say I won't make a Universe article for this right now is because I can't; the symbol's too vague and could mean a lot of things. One possibility is that this "universe" represents all manner of Nintendo hardware and will have, as its playable character, the Mii. (Would obviously be sweet :D ) If we knew that for certain right now, I'd write the page, but the "universe" here could mean something entirely else. As it stands, currently I can't write a proper "franchise description" section, but we'll just have to wait to see what happens next. Erik the Appreciator 03:45, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * To Thores: Sakurai's just out-Mojo'd the [Smash Bros. MOJO!!]]. ;)
 * Back on topic, why don't we just have an article called DS (universe), say that it was recently introduced and that we have very little info about it, and be done with it? A placeholder page is better than none at all, in my eyes. WarxePB 11:19, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * We don't know if it's strictly about the DS, but since there's music for Wii involved, the best placeholder I can come up with right now is "Hardware (universe)", since this seems to be all about the game consoles themselves. Erik, Lord of Universes 13:06, October 22, 2007 (EDT)

Universe or World?
Well, I don't know if you noticed but the makers of Smash call it World not Universe. Try saving any symbol from Dojo and it its file name is world_(b for black background, w for white background)_(number of world).gif. It just shows that it is called a world and not a universe. We so got used to Universe that we didn't consider what the makers of Smash call it. So what about it? Another thing, do you want to arrange it according to the world numbers? Here it is:

01 Smash Bros. 02 Donkey Kong 03 Star Fox 04 Kirby 05 F-Zero 06 Metroid 07 EarthBound 08 Pokémon 09 Legend of Zelda 10 Mario 11 Yoshi 12 Fire Emblem 13 Game & Watch(?) 14 Ice Climber 15 Animal Crossing 16 Warioware 17 Metal Gear 18 Kid Icarus 20 Sonic 21 DS

(based on the filenames of the symbols) Dcmjlive 12:53, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * Hmm... Thing is, up until now everyone of us have been referring to these things as "franchises", because that's what these are by themselves (the Pokemon franchise, the Mario franchise), and Universe has been treated as a synonym of Franchise. The term "world" sounds more like it refers to a specific world within the franchise, which is why that never seemed an effective alternative to "universe" or "franchise". Erik, Lord of Universes 13:06, October 22, 2007 (EDT)
 * I totally understand this. But we should also consider how Sakurai, the owner of DOJO, names these things. He names it, in his filenames, as world and not universe. He accepts that these franchises are just worlds not universes. The conflict comes up with what we call worlds in the games. Even Mario games has various worlds that have levels in it. If we were to follow Sakurai's logic, these worlds are only sub-worlds in one encompassing big world. I see our logic as well that due to many worlds, it should be called a universe. But, whose logic is more important when it comes to Smash, Sakurai's or ours? They created the game, we are merely playing it. Dcmjlive 00:58, October 23, 2007 (EDT)
 * DOJO!! calls them universes on the Trophies page. --Trogga 14:13, January 8, 2008 (EST)

Universes would be correct for Mario as seen in SMG ~Crystal_Lucario 17:12, January 8, 2008 (EST)

Kid Icarus and Metroid?
The article states that Kid Icarus was released alongside Metroid... but if I'm not mistaken, didn't Metroid predate Kid Icarus by several months?  Thou Hath No Honor 06:26, January 7, 2008 (EST)

ROB's Logo
The ROB logo is a gyromite. Unfortunately the image is broken in the thread. --Secretcode 11:48, February 16, 2008 (EST)secretcode

Picture problems!
I've noticed for a long while now that certain character universe articles have some character head renders that are overlapping the words next to them! Can someone please fix this?--King Dedede Kirby 21:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Universe Designations
It seems like Smash 4 sill bring in quite a few stages without characters so I was wondering if the Main Universes section should be split into Primary Universes (which have characters attached) and Secondary Universes (which don't). 109.148.204.135 13:03, 4 December 2013 (EST)
 * I think we should wait for a while longer first, but this is a good idea. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 13:08, 4 December 2013 (EST)
 * I say we do, so far we have DS and Electroplankton from Brawl and Pilotwings, Nintendogs, Find Mii, and Tamodochi Collection from SSB4, so can I have permission to do this? User:AwesomeGamer User talk:AwesomeGamer 10:13, 17 March 2014. (EST)
 * We should wait until the game is released, in my opinion. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Emissary 23:28, 17 March 2014 (EDT)
 * K, and also if there are a lot of new assist trophy universes, can I also add assist trophy universes under like... Idk tertiary universes when the game comes out? User:AwesomeGamer User talk:AwesomeGamer 11:04, 18 March 2014. (EST)
 * I have splitted it to primary and secondary universes! :D 86.92.255.223 07:46, 13 April 2014 (EDT)

It was me who suggested this before I got a proper account so I'm thinking after Smash 4 is released we give this page an overhaul and split the universes down more so it's easier to tell them apart. I'm thinking Host (Smash, Subspace and Special), Primary (Ones with characters), Secondary (ones with stages), Assist (obvious) and Misc for ones with none of the above three. i.e. the ones that don't merit universe pages. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 15:57, 5 September 2014 (EDT)

Streetpass Universe?
At the end of the page, I noticed that Mii Force is considered its own universe. (Whaa?). Should this not be merged into the Streetpass Quest universe, and have it renamed the Streetpass universe? Harro (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2014 (EDT)
 * The Find Mii stage uses a crown as its icon, seemingly denoting it as its own entity. Miles ( talk)   19:58, 5 September 2014 (EDT)

Minor Universe Cleanup
I've noticed that some of the descriptions for various minor universes go into far more detail than others, regardless of how much the universe is represented in Smash. Should we give detailed descriptions for every universe, (see: Magical Vacation for a VERY detailed description of a universe that is represented by some stickers and three trophies.) or should they get minimal description of the franchise (see: Panel de Pon, a universe with a half-line description that at least contributes an item.). Megaoverlord12 (talk) 08:38, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm going to give this clean-up a try. I'm thinking universes that have an assist trophy or enemy get a section an ones restricted to Trophies or other get another. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 11:55, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Seems like a good idea. Megaoverlord12 (talk) 07:58, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

Music Minor Universes
I found some a list of the default music in Smash 4 WiiU and I found a few minor universes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nskutrnpuE Namley Soma Bringer, the 3DS AR games, Culdcept and Captain Rainbow. Culdept caught my eye in particular because according to the overwiki(pedia) Nintendo doesn't own it. Is this the first third party music not repped by a playable character? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:03, 7 November 2014 (EST)
 * Culdept is owned by SEGA, so I'd say yes, it is. Rtzxy  Reflect.jpg  ''Reflect!!!  19:08, 7 November 2014 (EST)
 * Of all their not-Hedgehog series that was the one they included music from? Weird. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:34, 7 November 2014 (EST)

Mii Costumes
As Mii Costumes affect gameplay, at least in an aesthetic sense ans cost money if any costumes based on current minor (or non-existant) universes get made should they become secondary universes? Guybrush20X6 (talk) 19:09, 15 April 2015 (EDT)
 * We'll cross that bridge if/when it becomes relevant. Miles ( talk)   19:14, 15 April 2015 (EDT)
 * It's now relevant. Someone already put it on the minor universes page but let's have the discussion, own page or not? I say if not then at least add the pictures of the outfits and hat to the minor universe page. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 13:13, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I find it hard to justify putting a DLC costume as higher priority than series with music and/or collectables in multiple Smash games. As far as images, that's not how that page is structured (it's lengthy enough as is). It should simply cross-link to the Mii Fighter section of Alternate costume (SSB4), which does have the pictures. Miles ( talk)   13:46, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Fair enough. But do the Inklings get their own page? I'll just be here hoping for them to appear as DLC characters in their own right.Guybrush20X6 (talk) 13:52, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * That's an ambiguous situation. At the moment I'm inclined to say no; while we do have Proto Man, X, Dunban, and Majora's Mask pages, they already appeared in major roles in the game as assist characters, Smash Tour items, and so on. Inklings don't exist in the game outside a DLC costume, not even as a trophy. I am a bit hesitant to rush to give them a page based on a costume alone. Miles ( talk)   14:00, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Separate page for Secondary Universes?
I've been wondering about something: Should we make a page for the secondary universes (The universes that are represented with an item, an Assist Trophy, and/or an enemy at best, but no stage or playable character) if we get too many to fill up on the regular Universe page? The Secondary Universes category is pretty big as it is, and with Ultimate promising to bring in 50+ Assist Trophies and potentially many new items, we could very well see many new secondary universes to justify a separate page. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 19:42, 23 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I feel like that might be worthwhile. The section is already quite the wall of text and I'm sure there's more information we could add if we had more space. TheNuttyOne 19:44, 23 July 2018 (EDT)
 * While we're at it, I think we should separate the Universes that have stages but not playable characters from the ones that do have playable characters. There's not enough of them to warrant a page, so we should put them in a new category on the main Universes page (Not sure what to call the category, though). SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 19:52, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Personally, I think we should abbreviate the descriptions of these secondary series further and try to instead flesh out their standalone pages rather than dumping all the descriptions here. (I mean, I tagged Golden Sun (universe) for improvement like a year ago...) Miles ( talk)   19:56, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

So, about Joker's inclusion...
Should his universe page be about the Megami Tensei series in general or just the Persona sub-series? SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I'm personally leaning towards the "Persona" name, since he's from "Persona 5". Aidan,  the Festive Rurouni  00:01, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * It would depend on which series the Ultimate website classifies him as, wouldn't it? The description of the series on the wiki, if Persona (or Persona 5 like Final Fantasy VII) is what they go with, would probably mention that Persona is a sub-series of Megami Tensei. &#32;Wolff (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2018 (EST)

Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley.
You know, Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley have been sitting on the "Secondary universes" section for quite a long time, but it's kinda weird not to have pages for them.

We could move them to the universe page, but unlike with the  games, the Light Gun games don't seem to be designed to be a part of the same series/franchise, just as games that just so happened to be compatible with the same peripheral, so that wouldn't make much sense.

We can't move them to the List of minor universes page either because there's content from both games that actually do something in battle aside from being stat-boosters (I'm referring to stickers and spirits as the stat-boosters, by the way).

Another obstacle is that they don't fit into any of the categories in the Universe template, and they seem less notable than the Assist Trophy series, but are tied to a playable character, so it's hard to determine where to place them.

So, should we actually give these games some deserved love and give them their own page, or shall they just be pageless universes for the rest of eternity? SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2019 (EST)
 * I think these games should be counted as a universe, because I noticed they are called "Light Gun Series" in Trophy Box.--Capstalker (talk) 02:16, 5 March 2019 (EST)

Has Nintendo ever called a series a universe before?
I know I’m 12 years late on this, but I’ve never seen a series referred to as a universe before. Has there been any sort of source as to why we called it a universe instead of a series on this wiki? Lou Cena (talk) 19:18, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's what the entirety of the Smash fanbase calls it, so even if there is no source, it's irrelevant. TheNuttyOne 19:22, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Really? I’ve never seen anybody call it a universe outside of this wiki. I’m not suggesting a move, but I’ve just never heard anybody call it a universe. Lou Cena (talk) 19:28, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/gamemode/various/various05.html This page uses the term universe near the bottom for what its worth. Xm0c (talk) 19:30, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * It more prominently says by series though. He trophies say “list by series”, and the website says you can list them by series. I do see where it says universe though, but it still seems more prominently called a series. Lou Cena (talk) 19:33, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually wait a second. Universe refers to the characters, stages, and items, while series refers to the games, is hat correct? Lou Cena (talk) 19:34, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

(Reset indent) Any universe page on this wiki describes a universe as something that "refers to the Super Smash Bros. series' collection of characters, stages, and properties hailing from [short description of franchise]". The series would refer to the games, in that sense - the media itself is from the series of games. Aidan, the Rurouni  19:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Ah that makes sense. Thank you. Lou Cena (talk) 19:37, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Regarding individual universes and their pages...
When it comes to the lists of arrangements for games after 64 (since only one composer worked on that game), should the arranger be credited alongside each remix? I feel like that's something worth adding, even with the list of composers page existing. PikaPhantom (talk) 10:21, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

Difference
What is the major difference between a universe and a series? Juju1995 (talk) 00:15, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * The universe strictly refers to, as it implies, the universe the games are set in - things that can only happen over there. A series takes place within a universe. That said, people do tend to use them interchangeably (at least, from what I've noticed) - "Mario universe" and "Mario series" would mean the same thing, for example. Aidan,  the Rurouni  00:23, July 29, 2019 (EDT)

Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley...again
I know I've made a discussion about this before, but I might as well give this issue a go again, as I have some new stuff to say.

Since we've pretty much agreed to move almost all of the minor Namco universes to the minor third-party universes page (including Mappy, which is represented with an attack), I feel it makes sense to move the other two NES Zapper games (Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley) to the minor Nintendo universes page rather than keep them on this one.

If not that, then maybe we can at least make universe infoboxes for them on the universe page just like how we handled the  universe page. While these games were never classified as their own universes (maybe aside from the Wild Gunman sticker in Brawl), I feel they're more akin to the other Namco universes appearing in Pac-Man's moveset or the other SNK universes being associated with Terry than something like Cody from Final Fight only being recognized as a character or Flicky only being recognized as a  character. SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe  15:06, October 21, 2020 (EDT)

Is Kingdom Hearts a sub-universe of Final Fantasty?
My edit was reverted for being a "moon sized can of worms", which I disagree with as both series have had a huge impact on each other in the same vein as Mario and DK. Sephiroth's one wing literally originated from KH, and Cloud's voice actor started voicing him consistently with Kingdom Hearts. If Wario can be a sub-universe for sharing literally one character, then Kingdom Hearts has no reason not to. 157.242.208.151 15:18, October 5, 2021 (EDT)
 * This topic creates a Pandora's box (complicated situation). ThegameandwatchIcon2.png Thegameandwatch  Thegameandwatch signature icon.png  The Nerd  15:42, October 5, 2021 (EDT)
 * You just parroted what the jacketted terrapin said without giving any reason. The only complication this may cause is whether Punch out is a Mario sub universe since Mario is the referee in Mike Tyson's Punch out. However, Mario was replaced when Punch out Wii was released, and Sephiroth is a recurring boss. 172.58.69.165 17:13, October 5, 2021 (EDT)
 * Honestly, I think we should get rid of the notion of "sub-universe" entirely, the only thing it has really brought us so far is loads of bad trivia. I mean, it's fine to acknowledge that DK, Yoshi and Wario have common roots with Mario, but if the game considers them fully separate things then we should also do that, without any weird technicalities. Mario himself generally seldom appears in their games, anyway. --Rdrfc (talk) 17:28, October 5, 2021 (EDT)
 * To put it simply: Kingdom Hearts is not, nor was it ever, considered a true Final Fantasy "spin-off", since it was marketed as a "Disney crossover" first and foremost, and the Final Fantasy content that is available is relatively minor in comparison (KHIII' even outright excluded the Final Fantasy cast altogether before the DLC dropped); not to mention there's also the issue that Kingdom Hearts is fully owned by Disney despite Square Enix being the developer and publisher of the series.
 * Overall, there's just far too many complications for this idea to be worth salvaging. JacketTerraSig1.pngThe Jacketed   Terrapin JacketTerraSig2.png 17:49, October 5, 2021 (EDT)

I agree with Rdrfc that the whole "sub-universe" thing should be ditched, I don't see any value in keeping it, and all it seems to be good for is causing dumb arguments over what constitutes a "sub-universe" and encouraging bad trivia. Omega  Tyrant   03:40, October 6, 2021 (EDT)
 * I see it's been ditched already, and I agree. The only one that actually fits the bill imo is Yoshi since, as a prequel series, it has the exact same characters, but that's still directly under Mario without the sub-universe distinction, which is the perfect compromise. DK and Wario don't even appear in mainline Mario platformers anymore, so even they're not really sub-universes. 157.242.208.151 04:05, October 6, 2021 (EDT)

Why is Luma listed as Rosalina's child?
Lore-wise, Rosalina is not Luma's child. So why is it listed as such on this page? The only reason I could think of is that the person assumed that Lumas have been "adopted" by Rosalina, which is half-true I guess? But it still shouldn't be listed as so. KTrain5369 (talk) 20:31, May 21, 2023 (EDT)