Forum:Special move pages

In general, there seems to be a disagreement on how special move pages should be handled. I attempted to remedy part of this a while back, to no avail, but with recent information, I'd not only like to reignite the discussion, but cement how we should go about this with what we currently have and what we will have in the future.

To start, I will reiterate a point I made in the aforementioned remedying, in which I stated that special move page names should be an exception to the "SmashWiki is not official" rule. SW:OFFICIAL states, in regards to page names, "situations where a highly recognized fan term has massively and demonstrably eclipsed the official term in usage will sometimes be handled on a case-by-case basis, and the fan term may be chosen instead", which is being used as the argument for making a "generic" name for moves that have had multiple names at one point or another (Link's Bow, the Poltergust, Ganondorf's Final Smash, etc.), which I think is a completely invalid argument, primarily because a nickname such as "Bow", "Poltergust", or "Ganon" is not a different enough name from the actual canon name of the attack for it to fit under here. If this were the case, we'd have Knee Smash simply under the name "The Knee" instead of its current name, or even "Falcon" in place of "Captain Falcon". Shortened names aren't outright different names, since they still very clearly resemble the base name; the best example for how this rule should, theoretically, be applied already exists (and is provided by SW:OFFICIAL already), as we have a page describing teching that's actually called "tech", instead of the canon name of (as of Ultimate) "fall break". We also already use official names for fighters, other characters, and stages, so I am not sure why special moves are an exception. Additionally, to bring up a point I made on the talk page, the Smash community has gotten extremely huge because of Ultimate, and will continue to get larger with DLC, and as such, most people will be familiar with the names of the moves as they are in the game. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that move pages should be moved to a more up-to-date name should they be changed in any way from game to game. This is not to say that old names should be ignored, since they absolutely should be mentioned on the pages themselves and have redirects. However, staying up to date on all the information regarding the series should be the job of an encyclopedia-based website, no?

Secondly, in regards to naming the pages, there are quite a few pages that have taken to having slashes in the in-game displayed names. This has been discussed before, but it should also be discussed here. Many of these moves simply have upgraded forms instead of outright being different moves, which is where the confusion is lying; this has been, and currently is, an issue, as Omnislash got moved to "Omnislash / Omnislash Ver. 5" without consensus, in spite of it being made abundantly clear that the latter was merely an aesthetic difference, with not even the percentages changing (and, as such, it was moved back shortly after). Therefore, I am proposing that moves that, in Ultimate's Move List, have a slash in the title use their base name in the page covering the move, with the following (current) exceptions: I believe this will make things much easier for processing (very long page names are a pain to type out and take up a lot of text space), and for information covering (since we can then cover the different "phases" of a move separately).
 * Shin Shoryuken / Shinku Hadoken: These, flat out, are different moves. One is a projectile, and one is a trapping uppercut, and, at the time, was also unique for a Final Smash for changing between two different moves.
 * Shippu Jinraikyaku / Shinryuken: Similar to the above exception, these two are also different moves, with one being a spinning uppercut, and the other being a trapping series of kicks.
 * Limit Charge / Finishing Touch: Limit Charge straight up becomes Finishing Touch once the gauge is filled.
 * Burning Knuckle / Crack Shoot: These moves are not only different moves, but are also performed with different inputs altogether.
 * Mine / Craft / Create Block: These moves act on their own in terms of functionality, serving different purposes in terms of gameplay.
 * Additionally, while I am not convinced of it myself, I can see a case being made for Grappling Hook / Wings of Rebellion, Rebel's Guard / Tetrakarn / Makarakarn, and ARMS Jump / ARM Hook.

Thank you. Aidan, the Rurouni  12:12, January 12, 2021 (EST)

UPDATE: Because there's some slight confusion, allow me to clarify exactly what each subsection of support, oppose, and neutral entails. Hopefully this clears up any confusion, but feel free to ask questions if this still is unclear. Aidan, the Lovely Rurouni  17:55, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * Updated page names refers to the first part of this proposal, where moves that got renamed (Link's Bow, the Poltergust, Ganondorf's Final Smash, etc.) would have their page under the most recent name. This would automatically mean that Bow and Arrows, Poltergust G-00, and Ganon, The Demon King stay at their current names, regardless of any existing move proposals. Mentions of previous move names would not be disallowed, nor would redirects under previous names, but the primary information would be the most up-to-date.
 * No slashes refers to the second part of this proposal, where moves that have multiple parts to them, aside from the listed examples I gave, would use their base name as a page title, while the information on the page itself would remain unchanged. There would be no splitting of pages, as moves still take up one move slot, regardless of any major or minor differences between renamed moves.

Updated page names

 * 1) I support all of the updated page names with the slashes, except that I'm iffy on the Omnislash one. I started out fully supporting it but considering it was just "Omnislash" in Smash 4 I'm more neutral now. Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:25, January 12, 2021 (EST)
 * The "updated page names" refers to moves that have gained different names in Ultimate from Smash 4, not in regards to the slashes. Aidan,  the Rurouni  20:03, January 13, 2021 (EST)
 * Oh, okay. My bad. Well, I support that too, anyway. Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:11, January 13, 2021 (EST)
 * 1) Absolutely should make sure all names are current. I oppose removing slashes from names (see below), but I’m absolutely alright with this. Black Vulpine  of the 🦊Furry Nation🐺.  Furries make the internets go! :3  18:02, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 2) (edit conflict) I'd say it makes sense to use the most recent names for moves that were renamed but function exactly the same as they always did. Toad.png  Omegα Toαd,  the Toαd Wαrrior.  (BUP)  21:08, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 3) With the increased prominence of official names in Ultimate (and SSB4 for that matter), I think it the wiki should default to the official names of special moves. Exactly how to apply that to many-in-one moves (where the Move List slashes together multiple different move names), I'm going to defer to my comment in the other section. -- Snorlax Monster  20:56, February 20, 2021 (EST)

No slashes

 * 1) We should split the pages that have slashes. Many of them are totally different moves and slashes in page titles could make accidental subpages. Just because it has the same controller input doesn't make it the same move. Fighters already get subpages for every controller input, so Egg Firing / Breegull Blaster can be covered together in Banjo & Kazooie (SSBU)/Neutral Special while the page on the moves themselves should be split. Mine / Craft / Create Block covers three moves, so they should definitely split. Min Min's Punch is both her neutral special and side special and it still has only one article, so following that example, the special move pages should be about the move itself and not the input. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:15, February 19, 2021 (EST)
 * I think splitting makes sense in a lot of cases, but not every case. I don't think Frizz / Frizzle / Kafrizz or Omnislash / Omnislash Ver. 5 need multiple pages each.Instead, we should consider each such special move on a case-by-case basis.
 * Something else to keep in mind is a case like Timber: functionally it's effectively 3 different moves that work together, and it even has a slashed name in Japanese. (My speculation is that the only reason it doesn't have a slashed name in English is because naming it that way was more convenient for Custom Moves in SSB4.) -- Snorlax Monster  21:06, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * You do know the no slashes part has nothing to do with splitting the pages right? Toad.png  Omegα Toαd,  the Toαd Wαrrior.  (BUP)  21:10, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * I was replying to SeanWheeler's comment "We should split the pages that have slashes". I think that is too simplistic an approach. -- Snorlax Monster  21:34, February 20, 2021 (EST)

No slashes

 * 1) I understand the idea behind no slashed for most multi-name special moves, but doesn't that directly go against the whole "generic name" point made in this very thread? Additionally, there is no fine line for what is and isn't notable enough to not have slashes besides Cloud's FS being a purely aesthetic change. Limit charge and finishing touch are clearly different. Banjo's neutral special is a gray area with no good solution, because while both moves involve Kazooie spitting eggs, they have completely different animations and functions. I don't play enough Bayonetta to know how different her side specials are mechanically, I believe that they are completely different attacks in her own games. However, I would also oppose splitting all multi-name moves outside of Palutena's down special (since those used to be different inputs), because there would be very little information  split on multiple pages. Steve's neutral specials are all very different mechanically, but they all synergies with each other by involving the materials mined. Sephiroth's up specials have different games of origin, but the moves themselves boil down to one being stronger, so it would be pointless to split, but would basically ignore an equal part of the move despite their similarities. Min Min's more prominent up special is her aerial version, but her grounded version is listed first, so why would the move barely anyone uses get priority? In most cases, multi-name move variants are equally prominent in comparison to each other. I can maybe see a case of ignoring slashes for Hero's specials, Gun/Gun Special, and Sephiroth's neutral special, but that's only 5 exceptions against at least 12 others, and in that case you might as well just put slashes for all of them. 72.219.72.215 19:36, January 13, 2021 (EST)
 * There is a difference between a generic name and a name used officially. Limit Charge is actually an exception that I unintentionally left out, so thank you for reminding me of that; the exceptions have been updated. Banjo's egg firing is...well, egg firing regardless. Bayonetta's two attacks are two separate attack options (it's been a while since I've played either game), but they are essentially the same move. I'm not going to suggest splitting all multinamed moves (we 100% do not need separate pages for Frizz, Frizzle, and Kafrizz, for instance), only that they would be mentioned separately and not in the article title. Aidan,  the Rurouni  20:01, January 13, 2021 (EST)
 * I think I know a good solution that would allow each case to be consistent (consistency is the main reason I think the slashes should stay): remove slashes if the next name just the same name with a prefix or suffix. This draws a fine line between what would and wouldn't have slashes that can't be misconstrued due to its objectivity. This would mean that Gun/Gun Special, Eiha/Eihagon, Flare/Megaflare/Gigaflare, Omnislash/Omnislash Ver. 5, and Hero's specials would be the only multi-name specials with no slashes in the title, but all of the others would. Basically, the same as what was listed in the original post, but with the additions of Egg Firing/Breegull Blaster, Heel Slide/Afterburner Kick, and Blade Dash/Octoslash. Technically, Tetrakarn and Makarakarn have the same suffix, but both are so different from Rebel's Guard that I think it's fine. Arms Jump and Arms Hook also start with the same word, but again, those are completely different actions, so those should also be fine. 72.219.72.215 15:30, January 15, 2021 (EST)
 * 1) I think we should keep the slashes. I understand that SmashWiki doesn't have to be official, but I personally feel like we should use the official names when we can. The only one I'm iffy on, as stated above, is Omnislash. Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:20, January 13, 2021 (EST)
 * 2) Keep the slashes for moves, but I also feel like we should be using the official move name for all but the most extreme of cases where a fan name eclipses the official name. Black Vulpine  of the 🦊Furry Nation🐺.  Furries make the internets go! :3  16:44, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 3) I believe we should make the pages match the names in the Move List, as fan terms aren't very often used, especially not for the names in the slashes with them. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer  (talk) 17:34, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 4) I think it makes the most sense to keep the slashes if the Move List uses them and the moves share the same page. However, I also think that some move pages should be split on a case-by-case basis—Burning Knuckle / Crack Shoot in particular (where two completely different moves have two different inputs) should be split into two pages. Conversely, I think it would be a good idea to turn the Counter/Reflect Barrier disambig into a content page on how the combined move functions in Ultimate (while keeping the separate pages as SSB4 coverage). -- Snorlax Monster  20:48, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Updated page names

 * 1) I have nowhere else to put my specific stance, so I'm putting it here. I am in favor of keeping moves with the same input that activate in different contexts together in the same article. For example, I think the mine/craft/block name is fine to keep with the slashes, as all of them do different things depending on the context. As long as each of them are properly explained, it should be fine. For purely aesthetic changes, like with omnislash, only the original and/or most widely used name should be the title. Omnislash Ver. 5 should just be a dedicated section in the article, as nothing but the visuals change. For the specific case of burning knuckle/crack shoot, I think those should be split into different articles. Since both technically use different inputs, I think splitting them up would make both simpler and less confusing.The Other Jared (talk) 18:46, January 12, 2021 (EST)
 * 2) I don't really think it's all that important whether the Final Smash is at "Ganon", "Beast Ganon", or "Ganon the Demon King" (or for similar moves). As long as the redirects are correct, it's no big deal. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png The Breegull 17:01, February 20, 2021 (EST)

No slashes

 * 1) There's at least three different situations here: a move that can be upgraded, a move that acts differently based on situation, and two entirely different moves in the same slot. These should probably all have different standards, and I'd argue that determining them on a case-by-case basis is necessary, rather than having a hard-and-fast rule. I should also point out that splitting any moves may involve a decent chunk of work on the template side, because currently the entire wiki assumes that each special move slot can only have one page. Toomai Glittershine Toomai.png The Breegull 17:01, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 2) The side that wants to remove the slashes (/) have very good points, but the opposing side has points that are equally as good. Overall, I don't really care if we keep the slashes or remove them. I am happy when readers understand what we're talking about. Daniel1204SonDanielSignatureHead1.pngSonDanielSignatureHead2.png (talk page) 18:21, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * 3) For the most part I am leaning towards supporting no slashes but as Toomai said some should be decided case-by-case. For the most part I don't see a problem with just having the base name for moves that are just upgrades, especially because most slashed titles already have their base names in the second part and using both just makes it too redundant (such as Gun/Gun special). I do fully agree with keeping slashes if the other form is an entirely different move, and removing slashes entirely for Omnislash. Toad.png  Omegα Toαd,  the Toαd Wαrrior.  (BUP)  18:52, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Comments

 * If we don't end up keeping any of the page titles with slashes, my thought is that we should split them all up. For example, for Joker's down-B there would be 2-3 separate pages - one for Rebel's Guard, and either one for Tetrakarn and one for Makarakarn or a single page for both of the latter moves (though I suppose that would require a slash as well). Aykrivwassup (talk) 21:29, January 12, 2021 (EST)
 * Contrary to what is stated in this post, the Omnislash page claims there is a functional difference between the original Omnislash and Omnislash Ver. 5 with respect to its effect on bystanders. I don't think it matters whether this minor difference is reflected in the page title, however. -- Snorlax Monster  20:50, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * I'm aware of the small difference between the two, but if we're being honest, the moves are otherwise exactly the same. Aidan,  the Lovely Rurouni  21:38, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * Agreed, I see no reason for omnislash to be slashed Toad.png  Omegα Toαd,  the Toαd Wαrrior.  (BUP)  21:43, February 20, 2021 (EST)