User talk:Miles of SmashWiki/Spirits

Just a note
Daemon X Machina is a third-party IP, specifically a Marvelous one. Nintendo only has the publishing rights for the game outside of Japan, similarly to several of Level-5's Nintendo-exclusive games. It should be moved to the third-party miscellaneous spirits list, in my opinion. SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 22:56, July 6, 2019 (EDT)

Just a question
Since you've placed all spirits under the "Miscellaneous third-party series" section despite the Spirits Collection in Ultimate treating it as a first-party series, how will you handle the more "debatable" third-party series (I'm talking about stuff like, , , and )?

I'm asking this because these are series with installments published by Nintendo worldwide rather than just in certain regions, but it's only later installments of these series that are Nintendo-published (Hell, Fatal Frame was never even on a Nintendo console until the Nintendo-published 4th installment for the Wii). SuperSmashTurtles (talk) 22:41, August 9, 2019 (EDT)

Ideas for Banjo spirits
Humba Wumba: Bayonetta on Jungle Japes

Klungo:Bowser at Find Mii, Klungo theme plays

Jamjars: Morton on Spiral Mountain

Mr. Patch:Giant Crafted Yoshi on Find Mii, his theme plays

Both Clanker and Lord Woo Fakfak: Two Piranha Plants on Great Bay, Woo fakfak theme plays

Boggy’s Family: White Banjos on Summit, Freezy Peak theme plays

Gobi: Giant Yellow Yoshi on Mushroomy Kingdom, Gobi’s Valley plays.

Brentilda: Peach on Spiral Mountain

Lord of Games: Brown ROB on Spiral Mountain

Motzand: Crazy Hand boss fight on Luigi’s Mansion omega form, Mad Monster Mansion plays

Captain Blubber: Black K. Rool on Pirate Ship

Kongo and Chimpy: DK and Diddy on Spiral Mountain

Grunty’s Sisters: Two Bayonettas on Find Mii, Stamina

Timber the Tiger: Incineroar and Diddy on Mario Circuit

Wizpig: Ganondorf on Figure 8 Circuit

Yooka Laylee: Duck Hunt on Spiral Mountain, the song with the same name plays

Cuphead: White Mega Man on Spiral Mountain

Steve: Blue Villager on Mario Maker

Master Chief: White Samus on Reset Bomb Forest

Joanna Dark: Zero Suit Samus on The Splatoon stage

Battletoads: Green Greninjas on Pokémon Stadium

Conker: Dizzy Fox on Spiral Mountain Will you use these ideas? 174.201.19.191 14:38, September 5, 2019 (EDT)

Mario, Kirby, and Pokémon idea
O-Chunks: White DK with strong pinch attacks on Paper Mario stage

Ribbon:Jigglypuff that can fly on Dream Land 64 stage with Kirby 64 music playing.

Rillaboom, Cinderace, and Inteleon: DK, Sonic with Bunny Hood, and Greninja on Saffron City. All Returning Pokémon from the Pokédex must be fought first.

Tennis for Two (One of the first video games): Two Luigis and Yellow Kirby with Waluigi assist trophy. 174.55.24.64 21:03, November 17, 2019 (EST)
 * Yes, I did it, I kinda predicted the Grookey, Scorbunny, and Sobble spirit battle! In a very different way. And you predicted Zamien and Zamenta too! 174.55.24.64 13:58, November 20, 2019 (EST)

5 new spirit ideas
Updated Cuphead: Mii Gunner on PAC Land with Mega Man as Mugman.

Pink Gold Peach: Metal Peach In Mario Kart stage

Dr. Fire Mario: Dr. Mario with curry on Kirby game boy stage because it was going to be a dr Mario stage

Eiscue: Tiny Dedede on Ice Climber stage

Keeby: Yellow Kirby on Dream Land stage. 174.55.24.64 04:41, January 26, 2020 (EST)

New spirit ideas
This is 174 but my account got changed

Escargoon- Squirtle with Dedede on Founatin if Dreams with Dedede’s theme

Goomba Tower- Donkey Kong Team that jump on each other on retro Mushroom Kingdom stage with Mario NES song

Papyrus- Luigi with Sans Mii Gunner in Baloon Fight stage with Megalovania

Movie Sonic- Sonic that taunt spams in Green Hull Zone with Sonic music with Fox as the cop from the movie

Torkoal- Red Suoerspicy curry Bowser in Metroid lava stage with Hoenn music. 174.198.20.60 21:05, April 30, 2020 (EDT)

Harvey artwork
The artwork used for Harvey on here is not actually his New Horizons artwork, but his Welcome amiibo artwork.

This is what his New Horizons artwork looks like.

Also, just so you won't have to get constantly bugged from time to time, would it be fine if anyone fixes a small mistake or two on this page? SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe  19:19, July 15, 2020 (EDT)
 * Hm, so it is. I'll fix it next time I update this page. Sorry for neglecting this talk page until now. In general, since I update the page in chunks with code assembled offline, I'd rather any edits to this page were done by me personally. However, if you'd rather not bump this talk page every time you want to point out a correction or other piece of info, feel free to DM me on Discord. Miles ( talk)   19:24, July 15, 2020 (EDT)

Mario Kart
There is no item named Mario Kart. 174.55.24.64 21:32, July 15, 2020 (EDT)
 * No, but there is an item category labeled as such in other spirit battle conditions (examples: Mach 8, Golden Dash Mushroom). Miles ( talk)   23:10, July 15, 2020 (EDT)

Inspirations
Are you gonna add them? 174.55.24.64 19:56, August 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * The page is long enough as it is. I would hope that most of them are either self-explanatory or would make sense to a reader who does a little research themselves. Miles ( talk)   15:52, August 25, 2020 (EDT)

I don’t do suggestions anymore
But did you like them? 174.55.24.64 21:31, August 25, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding Tadashi's placement
So according to the rules on the "Miscellaneous Nintendo series" section, it states: "Anything where the IP is owned by Nintendo and/or exclusively published by Nintendo".

As far as I'm aware, Metal Slader Glory fits neither criteria. Nintendo did indeed publish the Super Famicom remake, but the publishing rights to that specific version is probably the only thing they own of the entire series. The original Famicom game was published by HAL Laboratory instead and neither version's copyright statuses list Nintendo as a holder (even as recent as the Wii U Virtual Console releases of both versions, as shown here and here). Additionally, I recently discovered that there actually exists a set of LINE stickers for this game, and the copyright only lists Yoshimiru as a holder, so even the possibility of HAL owning the IP is a bit dicey.

But even if they did, one might think "Well, Nintendo owns HAL, so they must own Metal Slader Glory, then, right?". Well...not quite. I don't know if you yourself are aware of this, but Ninty doesn't actually own HAL Labs They also don't own Intelligent Systems either, but let's not go off-topic. At best, they're an "affiliate" for them. They even self-published their own games on mobile devices in recent years (see Part Time UFO and Housuu de Shoubu! Kame Sanpo).

Given all of this info, is it really accurate to place Tadashi under the "Miscellaneous Nintendo series"? If you're still unsure about it, then perhaps you could add a new rule or two to justify his inclusion on that section.

I'd also add in Devil's Third since that game had a Windows release and The Cutting Room Floor page for SSBU mentions something about Ninty selling the IP to a company called Nexon, but the former could just be a The Wonderful 101 situation and the latter doesn't provide a source, so more investigation on that is needed. SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe  22:18, October 21, 2020 (EDT)
 * You're right that it's probably not Nintendo-owned, but I didn't feel like setting up a whole third table for the Baten Kaitos Origins-type stuff of "doesn't own the IP but was the publisher and has some character rights"... not to mention that for some older games it can be a real gray area to tell exactly who has what rights anymore. For the sake of simplicity, I'm lumping those cases into the Nintendo category just to keep them separate from the miscellaneous unambiguous 3rd parties. (And as to Devil's Third, the release by Nexon didn't have the story mode which is where Ivan comes from anyway, so whatever. His presence on this page is mostly for the comedy of how bad his game was anyway.) I'm trying to keep the page organized without being too pedantic, anyway. Miles ( talk)   22:32, October 21, 2020 (EDT)


 * I see. I still suggest a disclaimer that accounts for ambiguously Nintendo-owned series like Metal Slader Glory, Glory of Heracles (Nintendo only owns the DS installment, as far as I'm aware. The prior games seem to be exclusively owned by Paon), or Baten Kaitos if you don't wanna group them with the third-party series. Perhaps something like "series that are currently exclusive to Nintendo consoles and have at least one installment published by Nintendo (may also have some character rights)"?


 * I understand that this sandbox was more for fun than anything, but considering there's this thing I'm tentatively calling the "Shovel Ray" clause (read the third and fifth Trivia points and their sub-trivia on the "List of spirits (Others)" page to get a full understanding of what I'm talking about), you might want to think about your semantics just a little bit more. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 23:35, October 21, 2020 (EDT)
 * I getcha. I can rephrase the disclaimers to be a bit more accurate. Miles ( talk)   23:46, October 21, 2020 (EDT)

Two things
I was just gonna post about the first thing, but another separate question regarding this page came to my mind, and I don't want to make two more separate talk page discussions, so I'm gonna merge them into one if you're fine with that.

First off: At least when it comes to the Miscellaneous Series sections (both Nintendo and Third-Party), I think it would be highly preferable to group all the spirits that hail from the same series together, regardless if they debuted in separate installments. I understand if you're not a fan of how the Spirits are ordered for some series (such as the "Toon art-style" Zelda games being a separate group from the rest of the Zelda games or how the "Others" category groups spirits by console of origin), but the way the Miscellaneous Third-Party Series section prioritizes character debut while completely throwing away series grouping leaves a lot to be desired, especially when seeing characters like Altaïr and Ezio sandwiching two characters (Travis Touchdown and CommanderVideo) that have nothing to do whatsoever with their series (Assassin's Creed). It's basically the same issue with how Smash 4 ordered its trophies, with the most egregious example there being how Barbara from Rayman Legends is completely separated from the other two Rayman trophies, being 10 trophies after Globox; the trophies between them are Monita from Nintendo Land, CommanderVideo from BIT.TRIP, and all seven of the Wonder Ones from The Wonderful 101, and that order did not feel right at all. Hope you understand my critique on this one.

Second, I've noticed that some spirit battles that have music choices that seem...odd (at least to me, anyway). To give some examples:
 * Something like "The Darkest Lord" theme from Miitopia would've suited Wario Deluxe a lot better than the one you gave him, as that sounds much closer to his actual theme in WarioWare Gold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWF5OTdJfZM
 * Why a Wii Sports Resort remix for Dr. Scarlet's battle instead of something that would suit a "zombie apocalypse" game much better (even the music in Battleground Z still has that "spooky" feel to it from what I remember playing it)? This one I'm especially the most confused about.
 * Why Fire Field for the spirit battle of Star Man from Pro Wrestling instead of something more fitting for a pro wrestling game like, say, Punch-Out!! music?
 * Why T. Hawk's theme from Street Fighter II for Tin Star's battle when the theme for Dillon's Rolling Western: The Last Ranger would've fit the Western aesthetic of his game much better?

That's all I gotta say. SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe  21:50, January 11, 2021 (EST)
 * Belatedly realized I never responded to this, so what the heck. Better late than never.
 * As to the character organization in the last few sections, I mostly decided to do it on a character-by-character chronological basis as opposed to a series chronological basis because in some cases characters weren't from the first game in the series. For example, listing Ash Crimson, a character from 2003, under 1994 because that's when KOF debuted seemed wrong to my mind. While it does break up certain characters from the same series apart from one another, I just thought this was easier to keep track of for myself. Personal preference, I guess.
 * As for your specific music points, I sometimes picked music choices to more clearly distinguish a character's battle from normal battles or pre-existing spirit battles, such as to help the design stand out. This is why I avoided Punch-Out music for Star Man (since it would be too "normal" on Boxing Ring) and skipped Dillon's Rolling Western for Tin Star (because it would overlap with the Wild Gunman spirit battle on Gerudo Valley). Darkest Lord would've worked for Wario Deluxe but I felt it more important to use WarioWare music for that one since it was available. And lastly, for Dr. Scarlet, please feel free to direct me to somewhere I can easily listen to the Battleground Z soundtrack, because I don't own the game and couldn't find the soundtrack for it uploaded anywhere. Miles ( talk)   16:23, February 5, 2021 (EST)
 * I get ya on all of your points, even if I wholeheartedly disagree with some of them (like "Character order > Series order" or the Tin Star example), although I'd like to point out that for the Wario Deluxe point, both Kat & Ana and Young Cricket's spirit battles use music that aren't from the WarioWare series, but rather music that fits their aesthetic, so not using music from WarioWare wouldn't be that huge of a loss imo.
 * As for regarding the Battleground Z OST, I found a OST compilation that was created 5 days ago (as of writing this, anyway) here, so hope it helps. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 17:18, February 5, 2021 (EST)
 * Of course it gets uploaded after I do my research... Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Miles ( talk)   02:43, February 6, 2021 (EST)

Porky Spirit and other idea for Persona Spirits
I would like to suggest a Porky Spirit Battle for this. It just seems odd that Porky has no form of representation in the game and I thought it would be cool to make one up for here. Although it would be pretty similar to the Porky Statue battle. Also for Protagonist (Persona 3), I would suggest using Sheik with her white alt to represent Orpheus because of their similar appearance and Sheik tends to use Burst Grenade since it's a fire attack. As an alt for the Protagonist if the costume isn't downloaded, then Marth using his black alt would be the best since they look similar and share the same English voice actor. As for Protagonist (Persona 4), Robin would probably the best choice excluding the Mii Fighter Costume. What do you think? Diddy Kongstar (talk) 13:55, June 8, 2021 (EDT)

Two more things
First off, why did you completely get rid of the "Obsoleted" category?

Second, have you ever considered making each section collapsible? Your page is getting quite large, thus making it rather tedious to navigate through, so I think making the sections collapsible would make it much easier to navigate through and find spirits from specific series. If you're not aware how collapsibles work, I'd like to redirect you to this piece of advice I gave to Black Vulpine (Alternatively, you can also use CanvasK's method of doing collapsibles in that same convo).

Also, as a little bonus, I really appreciate you crediting me for some of your spirit ideas (I especially noticed your Knight Move spirit battle is almost, if not exactly, identical to mine). I mostly gave up on my own spirit ideas page cuz I'd rather leave that kind of stuff to you (that, and I wanted to reduce the amount of sandboxes I had), but it's nice to know I did at least inspire some people out there. :} The Jacketed   Terrapin  11:22, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
 * I took out the obsoleted section for the same reason you mentioned in your second point: to reduce the page size. I may or may not introduce collapsible wrappers on each section; I did use them previously on the aforementioned obsoleted section, anyway. We'll see. Regardless, I'm glad you enjoy my work on this; I was a fan of your ideas and thought to salvage a few of them from your page when you had it tagged for deletion. Miles ( talk)   12:59, August 25, 2021 (EDT)