Forum:Zeldasmash's new SSBM Tier List

This is Zeldasmash's opinion for the upcoming 10th SSBM Tier List. Doc King has recently discovered that the MBR is going to make a new and updated tier list on a YouTube video.So he would like you all to give your full opinions for the upcoming tier list!

Videos
Here are some videos that you can look at to make up your mind about the new tier list! Doc King (talk) 01:11, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

DK higher on the tier list

Falcon higher on the tier list (watch from 3:05)

Mewtwo way higher on the tier list

Mario higher on the tier list

Are you truly serious and unbiased about these two?
As much as I loathe Peach, I don't see how a character who had the tournament success that she had would drop from 5th to last. I also don't see how Mewtwo can go from 24th up to 10th on the tier list without any notable tournament success. Your video does not prove that Metwo is not bottom tier. One match alone does not show how good a character truly is. Omega  Tyrant   02:33, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * We think that Mewtwo is a good character and he has a good chain grab ability which can help him keep up with other characters including the fast fallers (which include the the Top 5 and Roy). Zeldasmash (talk) 02:53, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is Fox #1?! Edit: Sorry, I thought this was the recovery tier list! Mr. Anon teh awsome 02:56, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you guys forgotten how light Mewtwo is despite being one of the largest characters in the game? Have you also forgotten the KO problems that he has? Also, Mewtwo chain throwing ability is far from being good enough to make up for these massive weaknesses. I do not want to get in a dispute about tier positions, but I do not see how character consistently in the bottom five would suddenly rise to the high tier in the #10 spot. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 03:01, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now wait, while I don't think Mewtwo should be that high, floatyness is not necessarily a bad thing. Floatyness makes a character harder to chain grab, and makes a character have a better recovery. While Mewtwo is suseptable to juggling, his up special, air dodge, and nair can protect him from that. As for Koing, Mewtwo has his throws and his down smash. Up smash is very usefull for racking up damage, and dair is a meteor smash. Shadowball is a powerful projectile, ans Confusion can stop opponents from recovering. Mr. Anon teh awsome 03:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Anon, the first part of your speech is fine but the rest needs some work. The hard thing about throwing is that you can't grab in midair. His d-smash can easily be dodged, and his u-smash can easily be escaped from, leaving Mewtwo vulnerable. His d-air is pretty hard to land correctly. Shadow Ball isn't a reliable kill move and for Confusion to work you have to be in front of the opponent.- Ivy 73 [[Image:002MS.png]] 03:50, July 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * While floatiness necessarily is not a bad thing, Mewtwo's large size still makes him vulnerable to combos and more importantly, causes him to get KO'd vertically at pathetically low percentages. As for juggling, his nair has very short reach, so it will not protect him from juggling moves that have good reach, such as Marth's fair and uair or Ganodorf's uair. For his KO moves, like I pointed out to you before, they all have problems. His throws tend to be situational. His up throw is ineffective against the prominent fast fallers. It is incapable of KOing Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon under 150%. As for his back throw, he has to be near the edge for it to have strong KO power. Otherwise, it is not fully reliable. As for his down smash, it is one of the slowest down smashes, have poor reach, and it strikes one side. His dair is a weak to moderate meteor smash that is slow, has a small hitbox, and is difficult to land. I don't know where you got the idea that Confusion can stop recoveries, but it certainly does not. Now for Shadow Ball, while it is strong enough to KO under 100%, it is a rather slow projectile and it is rather predictable. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 03:52, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, his size can give him very good range so it can be harder to reach him for attacks and grabs. Peach is the lowest because of her very slow ground and air speed, slow recovery (although 7th place on the recovery tier list), which can make her easy to spike, and she is pretty light and weak. Come on people, don't underrate Mewtwo so much, he only has a couple of weaknesses like the other characters in the game and tournament popularity doesn't prove a character is better than another character. So popularity is not on this tier list. Doc King (talk) 15:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine. Give reasons on IRC on how Peach is worse than Pichu and how Mewtwo is that good. =\. Size doesn't matter for range. He is easily hit by moves, and he's light as well, making him easy to KO. 3 of his special moves are predictable and size makes him easier to attack and grab. Even though his grabs are good, he has a bad approach, and in REAL tourneys, KO potentials matter. I think he's one of the best dudes in Melee because I was biased, and truly, I'm better with Roy and Marth because of my counter instincts. You guys also like Mewtwo, which leads us to belive it's biased. Alos, Peach isn't the way you describe her. She has FAST AIR SPEED! Okay? Apparently, you don't know the definition of fast. She's good in the air, can recovery very well, she can chain grab, turnips are useful, and Toad is a good way to block. And you guys also don't like Peach.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 15:08, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Give the reasons here, not on IRC. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Forgot this was a serious forum.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 15:34, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok Clarinet Hawk I'm giving the reasons here! Ok so you said that Peach has good air speed. That is of course not true, it is way too slow. Also you argued that Mewtwo is easy to KO when Peach only weighs 5 more pounds than Mewtwo and she is very tall when Ness is 94 pounds and he is way shorter, which makes Peach a lot easier to KO than Ness, Doc, Mario, etc. Also you said that Mewtwo is easy to KO when he has the 3rd best recovery in the game and he has teleporting moves that can help Mewtwo escape from attacks and grabs and it forces the opponent to use a lot of mindgames. Also Peach is light, tall and floaty too so you can't argue about Mewtwo's weight, size, and floatiness. And also get this, Peach is the biggest luck issue in the game so you can't perdict the outcome of her forward smash or her turnips. Also Peach's moves are kind of laggy and very weak. So overall Peach is a bad character and is way too overrated and Mewtwo is a good character that is way too underrated! So Peach above Falcon!? Are you kidding me?! And Mewtwo in Bottom tier?! Come on people, you can do a lot better than that!!!!! Doc King (talk) 16:05, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you tried SSBM lately? Test it. You will see that her air speed is fast in comparison to others. It's fast in comparison. It looks slow compared to Fox, but still. Pounds don't matter as well, as Mewtwo is extremly heavy in the pokemon game and you can't detect pounds anyway. Height don't matter as well, unless the character is really light as well. Recovery doesn't always matter, as you could knock him off the stage AGAIN. Teleporting moves? Only his air dodge teleports and Up special. And both leave him helpless in air. Anyone can side step and air dodge, Mewtwo just does it longer. Big deal. Peach is not as light as Mewtwo, Mewtwo is somewhat taller, and Peach can choose to be floaty at times =\. Luck issues huh? Prat Falling's luck as well in SSBB. I'm using an SSBB example to tell you that luck can be bad or good. Only 2 moves rely on luck. And the turnips are still good projectiles. Mewtwo is by far lighter and taller than Peach and has to be floaty all the time. That let's him be juggled easily. He dodges in midair, falls helplessly, the opponent then up smashes and dead =\.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, her double jump is way too slow, her running speed is too slow, her grab range is too short, and what do you mean Peach is not always light, she is always light. Just switch her placement with Doc and make Doc the leader of the Mario universe. Doc King (talk) 16:38, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh*. I said floaty adn she isn't as light as Mewtwo when it comes to knockback recived. The stuff you mentioned is true and is what placed her 7 or so. You're thinking that Doc will be superior to Peach. Opinionated =\.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:43, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about?
Exactly where in that video in the top post do you see anything about a new tier list? I watched it (good match) but didn't see anything about a new tier list. Was it in a comment? If so, we should still verify it through SmashBoards as I've never before heard of them posting on Youtube before SmashBoards... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 03:41, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was in the comments in the 4th row. Zeldasmash (talk) 10:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * So? "I heard they're going to make another tier list". =\. No REAL proof. No link to smashboards talking about it, nothing. Just saying I heard makes it non accurate.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 14:24, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cool, I see the comments. Maybe they will make another list, but I can guarantee you it won't look like this. First, there is no way Peach drops to the bottom. Maybe her and Falcon or Samus switch places, but otherwise, she'll stay high up. I also think you've got the Ice Climbers too low, although it really depends on if the individual tournament allows Wobbling. If it does, they shoot up. Mewtwo has no business being where you have him. He is large, floaty, and incredibly slow in the air, which is also where almost all of his good moves are. Yes, he might be better than Pichu and Kirby, maybe Ness, but that's about it. I've see the videos of people playing him well. I've also seen the videos of M2K 4 stocking crap like that. Azen and Taj (two of the best Mewtwo players in the world) don't use him when the games count. That should say all that it needs to. As for the others, I think Bowser has enough in him to be in Low, not bottom, and I think you have Jiggly too low. Also, I would flip Young Link and Roy. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:16, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Check this out!Doc King (talk) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * K, that dude has Mewtwo higher than I would, but basically everything else is what I said. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:27, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just don't want Mewtwo to be bottom tier anymore cause he deserves to be in middle tier! Doc King (talk) 16:07, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there's your problem. You see, tier lists are not about "want". They are about "are". That is, they're not about opinion, they're about fact. It does not matter whether a character deserves X, what matters is whether it is X. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  16:14, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Mewtwo is definately not the 3rd worst character in the game, he's not even a bad character at all! Doc King (talk) 16:16, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * He is easily KO'd. He may not be bad to you, but that's because you aren't using characters to the max potential. Mewtwo is helpless kay? I 2nd main him just for fun, as SSBM ain't all that seroius to me. Pichu is ranked last due to the damage thing and that it's easily KO'd. Mewtwo is large, he can take damage. He could disappear in mid air, he falls and gets hit. He's light, a smash could easily KO him at 50% or somethin. You say he has good moves, but you don't realize the faults in characters. Every character has faults, Mewtwo just has big ones.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * No Mewtwo can't be KO'D in 50%, nobody can (maybe exept jiggz, G&W, and Pichu) and Peach has many faults too so you can't complain about Mewtwo being so large. I'm just saying he ain't useless, he can be good! Here's to prove it and they have the same amount of skill! I also didn't say Pichu was good and I agree that Pichu is not so good (check my average on my user page). Peach is just not the 5th best character, but maybe 10th. Doc King (talk) 16:44, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I said about 50% or so. I don't know for real, but that's not the point. State Peaches faults and Mewtwos faults then =\.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 16:47, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * We just stated them 30 min ago! I'm not going through it again. Well Mewtwo's moonwalk and wavedash are better than Peach's and Peach only has her Down Smash to relie on! I'm telling ya, Doc is betta!!! Doc King (talk) 16:56, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

\
The list itself has incorrect links, and how is Pichu NOT THE WORSE?!?-- Mega  Tron1  XD   06:00, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great recovery (5th place on the recovery tier list), small size and very light weight which makes him the hardest to Fox shine combo, and pretty good speed overall. He's still considered one of the worst characters in the game so don't get too exited (he only moved up 2 spaces). Doc King (talk) 15:09, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Recovery harms him. A counter matchup doesn't mean anything. He's the lightest and smallest. He should be last =\. Still don't agree with Mewtwo. A vid is a vid. Nothings at stake in that vid. Should have countered you during your conversation.-- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 15:33, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ice Climbers higher
Hey, Zeldasmash, I think the ice climbers should move higher becouse of their infinate chain throws that are impossible to get out of and they have Good recovery. Doc King (talk) 15:12, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * They should. They were 8th before. -_--- Mega  Tron1  XD  Decepticon.png 15:17, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing. 11th place where Jigglypuff is. Zeldasmash (talk) 15:18, July 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats better! Doc King (talk) 15:23, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Luigi
Um, guys? Can I get an explanation for Luigi at 19?- Ivy 73  14:28, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Mewtwo
Stop being stupid about this. Mewtwo sucks. Honestly, do you really think that if he was good enough to be tenth on the list people would have stayed away from him this long? You put up one video. And the only time in that video that matters is the final one stock on one stock, as the tier list is for singles. Single one stock match-ups mean nothing to tiers. A tier list is an aggregate of the play of the character over time. At 10 years since it's release, we can stop going on potential and look at how the character plays. If you two want to think that he is good, fine. But if you want us to treat this as a serious discussion about a serious attempt at a tier list, it's high time you started taking some actual positions on things, and not just link to one video. Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:00, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently from what they told me on the IRC, they believe Mewtwo's recovery and "teleporting" is enough to make up for his massive weaknesses in other, more important areas (of course I completely disagree with them). Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 15:13, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, his recovery may have a large amount of distance, but that doesn't make it good. He is incredibly slow while recovering, which, combined with his large size, makes him very easy to off-stage.  Also, the teleporting is over rated.  In any event, there are usually three directions that will flat out kill him, two more that set him up for being hit, one or two that accomplish nothing, and only one (maybe two) that give him some kind of advantage.  So any good player will know where you are going even if they can't see Mewtwo's dodge animation.  Oh, and since you seem to like videos, here are some more videos for you to consider.  Bear in mind that Taj is considered the best Mewtwo in the world.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 15:36, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok first of all, that was the worlds best Falcon (SS)! Second of all, it was pretty even and Mewtwo got some good combos on Falcon! Third of all, we didn't say Mewtwo was better than Falcon, we only said he should be in middle tier! And forth of all, even though Falco has really gimping problem, he is still considered good, when you guys argue over Mewtwo's weaknesses which aren't that much, so stop saying he sucks, because he doesn't, it's just your opinion! Doc King (talk) 19:11, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, watch theseif you think Mewtwo is bad!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u89hqpmQwqE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx7F0BRX7u4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuuQCqvp_0s&feature=related
 * So it's our opinion Mewtwo is a poor character? Well, it's also your opinion he's not. The difference is, we provided you with facts as to why Mewtwo is a poor character while you have yet to provide valid facts to support Mewtwo being a good character. What I find most flawed in your statement is you saying Mewtwo's weaknesses aren't that much. The fact of the matter is, Mewtwo has some maajor weaknesses that Mewtwo simply can't get around. About these weakness, you really don't think Mewtwo being the fourth largest character but only being a floaty lightweight is not a huge weakness? A character who is easy to hit, gets combo'd easily, and gets KO'd at such low percentages, you really don't see that as a major weakness? Considering how easy it is to rack up damage on Mewtwo and how quickly he gets KO'd, Mewtwo is arguable the easiest character to KO in Melee. Then there's also Mewtwo's KO problems. The inability to KO is always a major problem, there's no way to sugarcoat it. What's worse for Mewtwo is that arguably his best finisher, the up throw, has its power based on falling speed. As a result, it's incapable of KOing the prominent fast fallers under 150% while these same fast fallers are capable of KOing Mewtwo under 100%, especially Fox and his u-smash, which can KO Mewtwo under 70%. So stop ignoring these massive weaknesses, any character who is so easy to KO yet has such difficulty earning KOs is going to find difficulty competing at any level of play. While Mewtwo may not be absolutely useless and I'll confidently say he's better than Kirby and Pichu, he is certainly not middle or even low tier, let alone being the 10th best character in the game. Omega   Tyrant  [[Image: TyranitarMS.png|25px ]] 02:39, July 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well Peach has weaknesses too and you guys always ignore them just because she is overrated! Doc King (talk) 01:07, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Quality post right there... Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:57, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean C. Hawk? Doc King (talk) 00:08, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * He was being sarcastic. Your comment basically said "I think this so you are wrong", instead of saying "I think this and these are the reasons why". Okay, so maybe you gave reasons in a previous comment, but the point is that you made a comment that acts as nothing but a waste of space. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:20, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Peach
Serously? She was top tier and you lowered her to mid tier. Before, she was best Mario character, and you put Mario and Dr. Mario ahead of her. You guys aren't realizing what she can do and think her weaknesses are major, but they aren't, kay?-- Mega  Tron1  XD   15:03, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't think that the weaknesses are major. We just think that the weaknesses are a little big for a high tier, thats all. Zeldasmash (talk) 15:43, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, first of all she's high tier not top, and second of all, Peach is really slow and floaty, and third of all, she has poor range and some laggy attacks. So instead of having a princess in the high tier, why don't you guys have someone that's a REAL fighter like Samus and Ganondorf? Doc King (talk) 00:11, July 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe everyone on SmashWiki should have to pay a dollar so we can pay some black guy in some ghetto to kill this fucking faggot. Then stupid people will shut the fuck up when it comes to shit they know nothing about.  174.136.39.59 02:55, July 15, 2010 (UTC)  --User was temp banned for this post


 * A character's profession/abilities/personality/fanbase/etc has absolutely nothing to do with how good they are as a Smasher. You should also remember that we don't make the tier lists, the guys on SmashBoards with over a million hours of combined Smash Bros. experience do. Toomai Glittershine [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] eXemplary Logic  The Stats Guy  The Table Designer  02:20, July 15, 2010 (UTC)