Forum:Anyone got an idea for a Brawl Tier list?

Untitled
My personal opinion is that Pit and Metaknight should be near the top (fast, multihit attacks, multiple midair jumps, and the ability to glide). So should ROB (heavy, but great Up-B), and maybe Zero Suit Samus (fast, good recovery, incredible range, and the Paralyzer). Don't forget that Ike has the easiest-to-use Super Armor in the game, which, combined with Counter, can give him some great counterattack options.

Now, who should not be at the top?

...Feedback? Please? Runer5h 03:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC) Runer5h
 * Too early. Give it another few years, then come back and ask. FyreNWater - (Talk • Contributions ) 03:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing is...SSBB is actually decently balanced. In my opinion, the only characters that suck are Bowser and Jigglypuff but that's just me, I usually just random.AzureDrake 04:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with AzureDrake. SSBB is really even, I haven't found many characters that overpower everyone else. The characters are all basically the same.--Richard 15:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah... maybe it is too early to decide just yet. But, why not start now. (Plus, I won't remember in a few years to ask again. :P) And even though Brawl is decently balanced, AzureDrake, I don't think that tiers won't come... eventually.Runer5h 16:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * However, top tier candidates: The Star Fox characters, Toon Link, Lucario, Ice Climbers (?). Just my three cents contributed. AzureDrake 19:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Toon Link is cool. Anyone heard of the Quickdraw? It's sort of like the SHL, and Toon Link is good at it. Starfox should definitely be at the top (as always), and Lucario... maybe. His characteristics can make him a dangerous fighter. Ice Climbers are cool, and now they have a Stall-Then-Fall aerial, so I don't think that their tier ranking will change much. Snake should be up there too, because of his 6 projectiles (don't believe me? Count them: Up Smash, Down Smash, Neutral B, Side B, Down B, and Up B (after he lets go)), and his use of the C4 to regain his Cypher (I call this the Cy-four :P) Now, who should be at the bottom? That could be tough. Oh, and are all three of Pokemon Trainer's pokemon counted together? Runer5h 19:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
 * The precedent for transforming characters has been to count them separately so I would say each pokemon should be counted separated despite the timer. Personally I think the differences between tiers will be much less dramatic than it was in Melee as there seem to have been a lot of time spent balancing the characters against each other. I will even hazard a guess that half or more of the characters may even be tournament viable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.244.172 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Still, some low tiered characters would be Bowser, Yoshi, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff (?) AzureDrake 04:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How is Yoshi Low Tier? The boost he gets from the Egg Toss comes in handy. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 13:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, I was really tired and wasn't thinking straight that time. Yoshi's fine. Sonic is actually pretty deadly if you know how to use his Specials correctly. AzureDrake 11:34, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Sonic. He lacks projectiles but his speed makes up for that. If not a high character, he should at least be in the middle. --Riko 11:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC) Ness has possibly been buffed the most of all the veterans, save G & W. His PK fire traps now, his PK Flash is faster and might consequently actually hit someone now (maybe) and his PKT2 is devastating now (I've seen it kill Samus at 89%). His lack of a DJC is possibly an advantage as well; correctly timing a dair (which is much less laggy now, by the way,) in the middle of his second jump lets you get off a meteor stomp instantly at the end of a jump with no lag at all. His yo-yos are much more powerful now and set up combos easily as well as being incredibly versatile for hitting multiple enemies, and his bat is more powerful. His PSI magnet recovers 1.5X damage rather than 1 now too. The only move nerfed is his bair, but its still plenty powerful and easy to kill with. Were it not for his tether recovery, I'd say Olimar has incredible potential as well, but that fact drops him a bit. PT could be pretty high, we'll see how that develops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.111.199 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * He seems like he's much harder to get accustomed too than Lucas but a pro with him could beat a Lucas pro. He will probably be high-tiered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.124.192 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Marth or Fox should be top, ice climbers and diddy kong should be bottom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.163.18 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Wtf are you talking about, Ice climbers got a huge buff in Brawl and Diddy Kong is awesome. AzureDrake 01:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Ike, Meta Knight, and Pit should be high-tier. From what I witness, not that I use alot, but Snake & R.O.B should also be top tier. Just my thought. The list won't develope for years. Sukarai stated he wants Brawl to be "equally balanced." Zmario 12:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No the characters in Brawl are too balanced even Bowser would be middle tier, as Nintendo isn't fond of tier lists because they make each character equal only to have some guys make one, its an annoyance to Nintendo who has to develop these characters, so making Bowser or Jigglypuff low tier makes Nintendo feel that they did a poor job of making these characters, so if there isn't a tier list, we have a better chance of them making Super Smash Bros 4 if they feel that we appreciate their characters more. This is not my opinion its just fact. Dark Overlord 15:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * O.O, =.= I see what you did there AzureDrake 15:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

God tier, meta knight,pit,ROB,ike in that order. Jman97 4/13/08 13:00 EDT —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jman97 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Marth,Falco and Pit should be at top Darkspatan117 17:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

How About A General Consensus??
How about a collection of members of this wiki on their personal tier list? The overall tier list would be the averages of those ranks. Each member would be give a certain number of points, let say 70 for now. They would distribute those points throughout the rooster. If they feel that all the character are the same, they can place 2 points on everyone. While someone like Jman97 would probably, probably, make MetaKnight a 7, Pit 6.5, ROB 6, and Ike 5.5 with the rest of the rooster voted lower like varying 5's and lower. I believe in this system to keep in check, users must be willing to have their respective ballot public (likely stored on their namespace). This could also be an advantage, you guys could have Tier of the Month/Best Tier or something in that nature, where if the majority agrees that a user has a clever grasp on the subject, you know - posting reason why or why not a character can be considered Top. With this idea, you now have a General Consensus of the Tier List with a second opinion of the Tier List voted best by the community. Questioning Yours Truly -Question Jack 19:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a damn good idea. And I would give a 7 to Olimar (my main). He's a bit weird, but he has great grab and smash range, and is incredibly versatile. Also, because he attacks with the Pikmin, if he is attacked at the same time, the Pikmin take damage, not him. Runer5h 18:32, 13 April 2008 (EDT)Runer5h

''My personal opinion is that Pit and Metaknight should be near the top (fast, multihit attacks, multiple midair jumps, and the ability to glide). So should ROB (heavy, but great Up-B), and maybe Zero Suit Samus (fast, good recovery, incredible range, and the Paralyzer). Don't forget that Ike has the easiest-to-use Super Armor in the game, which, combined with Counter, can give him some great counterattack options.''

Yes, they have good combos, but meta Knight is screwed if he misses one and pit's up b can easily be stunted, putting an end to his recovery. High Tier. Rob Is good, yes. Top Tier. ZSS, not too much. Range is OK, not extraordinary. She's somewhat not too strong and is pretty light and her recovery SUCKS because it's Easily edgehoggable. Low tier. Ike has nice Super armor, but regardless, his recovery is bad and he is very slow and so is his counter and the rest of his moves (eruption takes forever to chrage and you never hit anyone). Remember that Marth, Meta Knight and Lucario can counter too. Mid tier.

Star fox...not...good...anymore...at all! Can't kill for beans except wolf. Sorry guys, but only wolf deserves to be top.

I'll rank mine Out of 10 A lot of Top, High and Mid Tier Characters got nerfed. Bad. -Fox Sucks Nut now, He can't combo and his Uair can't kill. 7 -Falco too. His Side smash sucks and his blaster is slow and his reflector is GAY. 6.5 -Peach's D-smash sucks now and her turnips suck too. She really sucks. 5.5 -Shiek isn't strong, can't kill and has no combo ability. 6 -CF...OMFG sucks so bad now can't really combo and his moves are slower. 4 -Ice Climbers are really bad without wavedashing and are dead when they split up. 2

The only GOOD Character that wasn't totally nerfed is Marth. I'd say he's improved. He has better knockback, can still combo and has cooler hair. 9.5

3 people I've noticed are a lot better now are Luigi, Kirby and Mr Game and Watch. They are stronger, and can combo like crazy. Kirby has 2 meteors now and luigi can do any 2 aerials in 1 short hop. Mr G and W is the combo king, enough said. 8, 8 and 8.5

Newcomers who impress me: -Toon Link. Crazy strong, crazy fast and good recovery (jumps are so high!) 9 -Sonic. Ditto and like 3 times faster than CF 9 -Pit. Recovery God 8 -Wolf. Powerhouse 8.5 -Lucas. Didn't expect this but wow 8.5 -R.O.B. PWNZ 9

Didy Kong isn't as great as he sounds. He can't really KO and most of his moves are weak. He's light and floaty and his recovery is mediocre. He's small but only as fast as Marth. But don't get me wrong, he's good! His bananas are annoying and some of his moves are pretty strong! Al in all he's really pretty strong! 8

Olimar is really good at camping but he has one of the worst recoveries in the game. 7.5

Meta knight is Pretty good. Nice combo ability, but is screwed if he misses a hit. 8

Ike and Link are strong, but too Slow to keep up with the fast paced gameplay of certain characters like marth or R.O.B. or Diddy. 5.5 and 5.5

Here's how I think the top few tiers will look like:

Top Tier: Marth, Toon Link, R.O.B., Wolf, Diddy Kong

High Tier: Lucas, Game and Watch, Kirby, Sonic, Meta Knight, Pit, Luigi, PKMN Trainer

Middle Tier: Olimar, Mario, Fox, Shiek, Peach, Falco, Peach, Ike, Link

Low Tier Dedede, Samus, Wario, Snake, DK, Yoshi, Zero Suit Samus

Bottom Tier: Zelda, CF, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Bowser, Jigglypuff

That's basically all I have to say.-SHOK —Preceding unsigned comment added by SHOK (talk • contribs) 00:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You really think so, Runer5h? I was really proud of the idea and hopefully it will be at least considered.
 * I think the character I would be afraid of in terms of strategy would be Diddy Kong. He has multiple abilities (Wall Cling, Wall Jump, Crawling). Interesting speed on the ground and in the air. Equipped with a projectile and mines. The mines, or Bananas, can be relocated and if the opponent nabs them you can always Dash Attack over one to pick them up (this also applies to the ones your enemy places, too). His Monkey Flip, Side-B, has numerous possibilities, you can even turn it into a kick at the last second. Not only that, his Monkey Flip can spike in midair.  An pretty good recovery (potential to be long range and curved with understandable restrictions). Diddy's down tilt even has set knockback. Probably can be used for putting space between you and your opponent. You may even charge your gun during this. Awesome at that sliding Up-Smash. You also always thrown you Bananas while rolling forward. That's all I can think of for now.
 * So thanks for the input, Runer5h. Try to pass the word if you like.
 * Questioning Yours Truly Question Jack 03:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, SHOK. Roses are red, violets are blue. In Soviet Russia, tethers edgeguard you! Russian Reversal aside, though, tether recoveries make good edgehogs. Why? Because you aren't at the edge, but you are still grabbing it, so you can be harder to knock off the edge. Olimar can have the best tether, so he is good at edgehogging. Oh and about Zamus; use her Down-B as a third jump. Runer5h 15:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h


 * Ike is good and should not be overated he has actually the easiest super armor in the game.He is strong has a good recovery.The only reason I dont give him a 9 it beacuase of it slow dash spped and very slow attack speed, 8 Darkspatan117 22:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just why is everyone putting R.O.B so high? He's slow, his smashes are weak, most of his specials require charging, which is a trait shared with his recovery, he can't put damage on without labor, is easily juggled, and easily taken advantage of in general, and as if more evidence is needed, his range for everything but his specials is pathetic. His powerful moves such as his back air and spike generally require that you lead your opponent because they move him in unusual ways. His side B, though it can reflect projectiles, isn't particularly effective and leaves him vulnerable both at its beginning and end. His A moves are generally unimpressive, and though he is modestly heavy, it doesn't make up for how incredibly vulnerable his is to just about player with skill above that of a carrot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.171.212 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Because, young grasshopper, he has (after Pit) the best Up-B in the game. His bair moves him forward, which is very good, and the charging time thing isn't as much of a problem as it seems to be. It means no spamming, but who cares? His projectiles are quite nice. The Gyro is really fast, and remains a hazard even after it hits the ground (if fully charged, it should remain spinning for 10 seconds or so). The Robo Beam can be angled, it bounces, and it goes uber if left unused for a while. So, does that answer your question? Points taken, but he's still awesome. Runer5h 01:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h


 * I concur with the previous users' sentiments regarding ROB and would like an opportunity to demonstrate his deficiencies to you first hand, if you would. I would be quite willing to exchange friend codes via email and play against you, if you are up to it. semicolon —Preceding unsigned comment added by semicolon (talk • contribs) 01:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, what I said was uncalled for. Sorry. But I don't have a friend code yet - I'll have to get back to you. Runer5h 15:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h


 * SHOK, you know what? I think you don't even know what you are talking about with your little tire thing you have going on up there. How can you even say that Fox and Falco suck? Have you ever had the satisfaction of spiking an opponent coming off the edge with Falco? Or how about shine spiking opponents with Fox, I mean how much effort does it take to simply shine spike an opponent twice be fore grabbing on to the edge and repeating the process? Besides that there are a lot more that the space animals can do besides there smash attacks, which are pretty decent in knock back and speed, especially when using Fox. And Capitan Falcon at the bottom are you mentally retarded? You know what I'm not going to even say anything because Captain Falcon is just awesome you should really try using him. But in my general opinion all characters have there strengths, weaknesses and strategies and that there is no correct character to use, but who you are best at using based on the character's strengths, weaknesses and strategies.I just happen to like fighting with a variety of characters based on their strategies that I find I could pull out in the middle of battle.

P.S. I could also tell that you put all your favorites at the top which also proves my concluding statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.60.138 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Final Smash
does final smashes affect the tiers?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.106.191 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, first sign your comment. Secondly, items aren't usually allowed in tournaments. So no.--King Dedede Kirby 13:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * My thoughts: I suppose one could be made. Ranking FSmashes can also be incorporated into my idea (explained above - under How About A General Consensus??)
 * Questioning Yours Truly Question Jack 14:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

i dont think a tier can be made for this game... the characters are all fairly well balanced and i keep hearing about jigglypuff and bowser being at the bottom they should at least be middle because bowser may be heavy and slow but his knockback and damage make up for it and jigglypuff may be light and weak but its air speed and capabilities make up for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.161.3 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC

How is snakes down smash a projectile, AzureDrake? and I personally think he will be banned from tournaments. plus, final smashes could affect a possible tier list! don't any of you know the "pity final smash" as sakurai put it? PeetzaLink 19:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The Pity Final Smash doesn't work if Smash Balls are turned off. And how would Snake be banned from tournaments? He's good, but not that good. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 21:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait wait wait. You think that a character should be banned from tournaments? You're kidding. (Oh, and for why Snake's down smash is a projectile: see this page. Runer5h 23:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

Ness has possibly been buffed the most of all the veterans, save G & W. His PK fire traps now, his PK Flash is faster and might consequently actually hit someone now (maybe) and his PKT2 is devastating now (I've seen it kill Samus at 89%). His lack of a DJC is possibly an advantage as well; correctly timing a dair (which is much less laggy now, by the way,) in the middle of his second jump lets you get off a meteor stomp instantly at the end of a jump with no lag at all. His yo-yos are much more powerful now and set up combos easily as well as being incredibly versatile for hitting multiple enemies, and his bat is more powerful. His PSI magnet recovers 1.5X damage rather than 1 now too. The only move nerfed is his bair, but its still plenty powerful and easy to kill with. Were it not for his tether recovery, I'd say Olimar has incredible potential as well, but that fact drops him a bit.

Well, the idea of Snake being banned from tournaments isn't exactly what you think I mean. I go to this thing at the library in my city where we just play games for about 2 hours. I always play smash bros there, and we sometimes have items on. after seeing the devastaing affect of his final smash, we (the people who ply it there) decided to ban him from items matches. PeetzaLink 19:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * His Final Smash, while devastating when you start up a combo, has incredible lag. A good player knows how to dodge them. And why is my name in your last edit? AzureDrake 21:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Since I was talking to you, I figured that I would put the link for your name. PeetzaLink 19:07, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Final Smashes shouldn't be tournament legal. I've played in tournaments with Smash Balls turned on, and even at very low with no other items, a smash ball pops up once a minute. Annoying as hell. Maybe you could hack the game so that smash balls appear once a match or something, but otherwise, no FSs.64.19.146.170 15:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
 * Or at least hack so only pity FSs come out. AzureDrake 18:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That said (responding to you, AD, and my own comment), were FSs to be allowed, it would really help a lot of people. Olimar can rack up massive damage, Marth can KO really well... conversely, Peach and Zamus would go down, as they can never KO with their FSs. EVER. (Except on scrolling stages, when you fall asleep from Peach Blossom and scroll off to your death.) Considering everything, Marth is probably at or near the top - great combos, fast, and arguably best FS. This puts Olimar up too (do you see a bias?), but my friend, playing as Metaknight, once avoided taking any damage from End of Day. It was awesome. Runer5h 18:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

IMO, Marth's isn't very good. You can SD with it. AND while it can KO three bowsers from 0%, who's is going to be stupid enough to line up in front of him, anyway? You guys need to learn that. huntercrunch —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huntercrunch (talk • contribs) 01:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

He can only self-destruct if he's in the air. On the ground, he stops at the edge of the stage. Also, a character can't stay in the air forever. Eventually, they have to hit the ground, where Marth will be waiting. --Posted by Pikamander2   (Talk)  at 17:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

To the final smash problem, add some other items, maybe some Dragoon parts, cause whenever they are on the map, the smashball is almost never going to appear. Two, Marth's final smash CAN be cancled when in mid-air (look for it in this site I think). THREE, some characters are debuffed all because of their Final Smashes, so take that away, and they stink. Learner4 23:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ike should be top tier
Ike should easily be top tier. He is strong, and heavy, with good moves and an amazing up B. He may be slow, but he has a vast quantity of moves that make up for that. Plus, if someone tries to range at him, he always has counter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ike6481 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Totally. He is so awesome that his moves are slow enough that even Helen Keller could see them coming. Don't mistake 'easy to play with modest efficacy' and 'good'.Semicolon 18:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)semicolon


 * Good one. Runer5h 02:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

Ok, firstly, i have no idea who helen keller is. Secondly, he has extremely powerful smash moves that are not King dedede slow. Thirdly, people seem intent that speed is everyhting in this game. Power and weight are factors too. Falco, as an example, wins on speed. Ike wins on weight, power, finishing moves, arguably recovery and range of melee attacks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.116.46 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

How do you not know who Helen Keller is? For your information, she was a deaf, dumb, and blind child prodigy. And yes, she could see Ike's moves coming. No, speed isn't everything, look at sonic for example. But speed of attacks, that is what's important. Any good player will see Ike's smash attacks coming. And just because Ike "wins" in more categories says nothing about the value of said categories. I also refer you to the Meele tier list; all of the top five characters had attacks that were quite fast relative to the other characters. As for using counter to stop ranged play, that only work at long range. At medium range, any good player will be able to take advantage of the ending time of the counter where Ike is quite vulnerable. The fact that if you land a smash attack it will probably kill your opponent says nothing about the number of time you will miss (or not even get the attack off) and your opponent can send you flying. Ike's recovery may be good, but it's nothing that can't be done with other character that won't be smashed around as much. Clarinet Hawk 21:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, i will make a list. firstly, i am against tiers, in any way. Anyone can be good with anyone, Nintendo would not make a game like this where some characters were better than others. I'm not saying i'm equal with everyone, just that it is possible to be. Secondly, just because it takes a skilled player to use heavy characters effectively, doesn't mean they are bad. Yes, Ike may be slow, and yes, he may have slow smashes. But only a useless player would play a smash where a miss would be likely and punishing. THirdly, though this is similar to my second point, a fast character, like fox or falco, will never had good finishing moves, but a heavy character, ike or king dedede, can hit. And as for ranged play, no fast characters have ranged moves that anyone particularly cares about. Blaster? Crap! And, people don't seem to get that, when i say he can, i don't mean he will. Counter can be used, as can jumping. If you're close enough to hit Ike with a ranged shot when the player knows about jumping, then use a melee move. In which case, damage taken would be heavy. Fourthly, Ike won't get smashed around as much if the player is good. A fantatsic Ike player would beat a fantastic Falco player, theoretically, as Ike just needs to hit. Falco, needs to hit a lot. Fifthly, and i will repeat this, because people can't seem to read. I am against 'tiering' as, Fox was high in melee. Erego, people who can't make their own choices pick him. Erego, people will have played with him a lot more than with a character like Roy, or Ike, or Marth. Erego, people will be better with him, he will remain high up. Sixthly, i think i'm on that, speed is not the most important ability. Ike outclasses most people in most areas, and just because the top SSBB player chooses to be fox, and then someone comes in who has never played before, uses Ike, and misses every single smash, doesn't mean that speed is the most important thing. I, as people may have guessed, predominately play with Ike. I don't even own the game, yet I have won quite a few tournaments, not big ones, because there aren't any in England yet. But that is not the point. Just because you try to smash when there miles away, it does not mean everyone does, good people, play the game well. Bad people resort to using speedy characters and arguing that speed is good because its easier to use a fast character, which it is. But it is more rewarding to be a heavy character. End Long Rant#1. Note1: Ike and King dedede are the only heavy characters i use. Bowser, dk and ganondorf are useless, in my opinion. Also, Falco is my third favourite character, behind pit and Ike. Note2: I realise that have said both everyone is equal and heavier characters are better. I mean that everyone can be played well, but, statistically (theoretically)a good player with a heavy character, would probably beat a good player with a light character. That does not mean to say the heavy person would win all the time. Also, it takes longer to be good with a heavy character. End Notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.116.46 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't just assume I'm a bad player. For your information, I am quite good. I'd be happy to exchange friend codes with you and show you just how good I am (and show you Ike's deficiencies). Clarinet Hawk 02:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't assume you're a bad player. In fact, I read your page, you sound like a very good player. And once i get the gane, i would be happy to play you. And one quesion, how good with a character do you have to be to be classed as "Proficient"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.116.46 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait. wait. wait. wait. wait. WAIT. You write this gigantic thing about Buddha knows what and then you say you don't have the game. That's like listening to Polly Shore drone on about how to be an actor. Let me make this very, very clear. There is no way, absolutely NO WAY a game as complex as Smash Bros, any of them, can be perfectly balanced and still have different movesets/priorities/speeds/weights etc. for each character. Mathematically, and logically speaking, it is impossible. Perfect balance is equality, and there is no such equality in Smash Bros, any of them. Some characters will be better than others, the only thing that can hope to be achieved is that the gap is small between the potentials of each characters. Skill thresholds can overcome these gaps; they are not that wide, in any of them. In addition, stages favor the movesets of characters over others, such Final Destination favors Fox over Marth, whereas Battlefield is the reverse. Not to say that Fox cannot beat Marth on Battlefield or the reverse, but there are advantages delivered. Logically, tiers must exist because of these differences. Tires don exits. And as for Hawk, I've exchanged friend codes with him, he's very good, and he's generally a good sport, but don't expect mercy, especially if you play Ike.Semicolon 03:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I never said they were perfectly balanced. What i actually said was that anyone could be great with anyone. And, I actually aslo said that i thought heavier characters tend to be better than light characters. They may be harder to use, but they are better. Also, if i thought the game was perfectly balanced, my favourite wouldn't be Ike. And, mathematically and logically speaking, it is possible for two characters to be equal yet still have different weight/speed/movesets/priorities etc. My reason for being an antitierist or whatever you call people that are against tiers, is that everyone can be good. Everyone can be bad. I know tiers are supposed to be about someone's potential, but the potential is of the player, not the character. Tiers will cause new players to just assume that Fox is OMG! Amazing. When, he is not. (SSBM there). Also, I never said clarinet hawk was a bad player. So, i don't know where everyone got that idea. Also, I may not own the game, but i do play it a lot, and have won several minor tournaments. Very, very minor. And finally, stop relating things to random American people who I have never heard of. Please. Note: I am still wondering, how good with a character do you have to be to be classed as "Proficient"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.116.46 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean Buddha? You dumbass. He lived before the US even existed. Stupid troll. Runer5h —Preceding unsigned comment added by Runer5h (talk • contribs) 15:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys, I just read this section, and I completely agree. Ike may be slow, but with good anticipation, prediction, and timing, Ike can actually be a really good character. Clarinet Hawk and Semicolon, can we exchange friend codes? I'd like to play against you guys online sometime... =D -ACDCGAMER (talk) 04:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Tier
There will be ALOT more opposition to tiers now than anything in Melee's days(I didn't play then so, idk what it was like). And Secondly, most characters seem to be well and truly equal. Most characters that people have been placing at the top? Pit is very good yes, but suffers like Meta-Knight from having any really reliable killing move. Marth and Wolf's recoveries both suck. ROB is slow. And characters that people have been placing at the bottom? Bowser is alot better this time around, really. Jigglypuff is the Wall of Pain master and with Footstool, she can KO at any point. My basic point is that in Melee, there were distinct tiers: In Brawl, they are not so clear. They are probably there, but it will take a while for eveything to settle and it to become clear. Oh and while we're on it, what do you guys think about Pikachu? (I did not mean to offend anyone with this tirade, I merely meant to get everyone to chill for a bit and recognize that we will make tiers, just give us time) Solox 22:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Tiers are for.....
Tiers are for people who rate character instead of just playing the game using every character at their disposal. I persoanlly would use anyon but I main Captain Falcon and Mario. I really don't care how bad or good a character is. Bowser may be slow but he has a very good recovery which can hurt and can cover a fair amount of distance. Peach has one of the best down smashes in the game. Ice Climbers are very effective together and when they are desynchded. I mean COMON! Pit may have fast and effective attacks but he lacks a good killing move and his Up-B is easily interuppted. Sakurai stated that he wants Brawl to be an eqaul game. Thats what it should be. Pichu could be good against Bowser but Bowser could be good against a Pichu. Its always pending because there are so many options to choose from. I beleive the tier page should be deleted. Zmario 23:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen, I'm not saying you should only play (or not play) characters because of their tier, play as who you want. I mained Link in SSB and Roy in SSBM. They're bad. That's that. I enjoyed playing them. When I played in Melee tournaments, I mained Marth. But to deny tiers exist because it feels better on the inside is, unlike how I met your mother, totally unsatisfying. Just because the developer intends a game one way, and thinks that's how it should be played doesn't mean that's actually how it should. We own the game now, not them. We develop the metagame, not Sakurai. Personally, I found Sakurai patronizing and naiive. It's the unskilled players that flock to the tier listings to improve their results, rather than try and improve. You may find that unsatisfying, and so may Sakurai, but tiers still exists and that cannot, and should not, be denied.Semicolon 03:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Semicolon, everyone has to experiment and find they're best.When I got SSBM I had no idea how to play and who was the best for me.After a few weeks I found my best.Then Brawl comes out, my best in SSBM is still my best in Brawl but everything else has changed because of all of the upgrades.I have my opinion and so does everyone else.The game is well balenced in many ways but there are some ways that it isn't occansionally, but hardly ever.And I also have to agree with Zmario, this topic should be deleted.IRetardedGenius 03:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)iRetardedGenius

Did ANYONE hear what I said, Nintendo doesn't like us making Teir lists as THEY, not YOU make the characters and feel that they did poor quality work on bottem tier characters! So making tier list can possibly LESSON THE CHANCE of them making another Super Smash Bros game, why should Nintendo make another game when we make them seem poor quality! Dark Overlord 23:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the kicker, because, much like how I met your mother, they don't care what we think of how it looks as long as we give them money for it. As long as we pay for it, they'll make it. Why they're discouraging competition is beyond me, but no company is stupid enough to abandon one of its biggest cash cows because some fans have ranked their characters.Semicolon 01:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Make a Tier List, make a Tier Wars forum. Dark Overlord 03:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And plus Tier lists are for people who suck at Brawl LOL. And these Tier Lists always list speedy but weak characters at top, no wonder I own my friends at Melee and Brawl, they should list power characters at top. And this is a proper COMMUNITY not a place where you cuse out mom jokes at everyone. Dark Overlord 04:00, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, so if tiers are for people who suck at Brawl, why do all pros believe in tiers? And if you think for a moment that I suck, all I request is that you give me your friend code and you see just how much better I am than you. Clarinet Hawk 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the "pros" would be just as good without tiers. just look at Isai, the world melee champ. he uses captain falcon, a middle tier character. I think tiers are just a way for people to say their favorite character is better than other peoples favorite characters. PeetzaLink 19:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Tiers are a waste, controversy here, like most technical things. I main Roy/Ike, who is lower tier, i think, and i don't wavedash, shield, use counter, double edge dance and i rarely aerial, yet i have managed to win several large tournaments. You may all think that this is bside the point, but it is not. Tiers, among other forms of 'technical play' may exist, but this does not go on to mean that they are right. Also, Clarinet hawk, just because you have won a few tournaments, don't assume you're better than everyone. It is, quite frankly, pathetic. And semicolon, you're not a funny person. Your mum jokes are, well, rude and unimaginative. Although i do agree it is the unskilled players that flock to tiers. But, while i said tiers are a waste, i did not say they did not exist. I'm not good at explaining things. ask me what i mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.131.108 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Just some things to note: don't assume that Ike/Roy are good because you've won tournaments with them, because it's anecdotal and adds nothing to the discussion. I agree that, quite like your mother, 'mum' jokes are ugly and detrimental to society. I apologize. For the Brawl side of things, I don't know how you go about quantifying tiers and 'technical play' as 'right', so I'm going to do you a favor and ask you what you mean, because you certainly couldn't have explained it in your preceding paragraph without being asked to.Semicolon 21:10, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh gosh! Alert the village elders! semicolon managed to use a mum joke! Anyway, what i meant, is that tiers do exist. However, not everyone will have the same tiers. This is pretty self explanatory, but i shall spell it out, because, i know i wouldn't get it by this point. Everyone can be good with a character, theoretically. Everyone, can be bad with a character. But not everyone will be good and bad with the smae characters as everyone else. I realise tiers are for 'potential', but many people will find they are better with heavy characters, just as people will find they are good with light. As for what i meant about technical play bein 'right', i meant that you people go on and on about how fox can wavedash and do some spaceanimal combo and so on and so forth. However, i have played against many people who use combos and wavedash and do complex maneuvres, and generally find that they are so intent on using these things, that i can beat them with relative ease. this should be in a seperate thing, so i'll go back to my original point. Tiers DO exist. However tiers are NOT the same for everyone. And as for semicolons simple hilarity, bravo! I shall phone Bill Lawrence and explain to him how wonderful you would be as an actor. ANyway, how old are you, 19? And you care this much about a video game, yet fail to come up with even the simplest of good cusses. Quite frankly, my friend, it is pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.131.108 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Chill out man, it's just a game, and the mom jokes are all in good fun. They aren't meant to be ostensibly funny/hilarious, they're meant to be so bad that it's funny. This is subtle humor with nuance. I'm sorry for assuming you have a sense of humor :(. As for the other things, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'cuss' exception perhaps suggesting actual cursing or swearing, both of which are rather uncouth and quite lacking in propriety. If insulting someone was really what I was after, I would again be subtle. Rather, I'm more interested in substance and rhetoric, of which your latest contribution is rather lacking. Putting aside the questionable grammar and misspellings (which, I might add, the interface even alerts you of), there is little more than you giving vague answers to unspecific challenges. What you described being 'right' is generally people who have knowledge of the game, but can't implement it. In that situation, an effective approach is to be direct, which is why you have, if the truth you are indeed telling, won. The judging factor of a tier placement is the performance by people who don't suck, and people who can actually implement these higher level strategies. These people would disassemble someone with a direct approach. Again, it is a statistical impossibility that there are not tiers written into the game, what with the large number of characters and factors that play into their creation. What you have essentially said is that certain people are good with certain characters and bad with others. This, of course, is not news to anybody but you. What I find pathetic, sir, is your constant insistence that mine and every other argument which exceeds yours in rhetoric and validity is pathetic. Come off it.Semicolon 23:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, firstly, congratulations on the overuse of the word rhetoric, and indeed the wondrous attempt, (And success) of sounding clever. However, having read your paragraph, several times, i am still struggling to understand all it is that you have said, but, i shall attempt to respond. i do not insist that every argument is pathetic. I insist that YOU are pathetic. I do agree, there are tiers. But the only reason people put fast haracters at the top is because they come up with some silly series of pressing moves, give it a name, decide that only fox can use it, and therefore decide he is a holy creature! (While on this note, it is not statistically impossible, unlikely, yes, impossible, no.) also, it appears that you people who decide the tiers have decided that every persons bestt character, would be fox. This, of course, is nonsense. And indeed, you have contradicted yourself. Being able to use te word 'rhetoric' you should work out where. so do. Now, i do see where you re coming from in terms of my arguing. I do disagree too much. But i shall stand firm. Note: In england 'cuss' just means insult. And i agree wih you about swearing. Also, the reason i have numerous errors is that my keyboard is not working to its fullest potential. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.131.108 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 92.11.131.108, please sign you comments by adding ~ to the end of them. Logan - (Talk&middot;Contributions) 00:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

semicolon and clarienthawk, you guys both have good arguments, but you're going about it the wrong way. I think if you would both be a little friendlier and not make fun of each other or your spelling mistakes. no matter how much it is intended to be "all in good fun" it still doesn't help you. I think we could overlook the spelling errors because, as he himself said, his keyboard isn't working the greatest. also, could you stop persecuting only fox!? while you are right about people being good with certain characters and bad with others, referring to this as tiers will definitely cause people to disagree with you. while mom jokes are funny, they also hurt your argument. even I found myself somewhat disapointed seeing so many of these from just one person. not only that, but mom jokes are old! this just isn't the place for that. PeetzaLink 19:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

PeetzaLink, you are quite right, it got out of hand, and maybe the mom jokes were a little over the top. This is not the place for that kind of talk, so I have challenged 92.11.131.108 to some games, the proper forum for our mutual animosity, which I posted on his talk page. That will be that, and no more silly arguments here.Semicolon 23:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Look tiers DO exist. Yes the skill of the player is always the most important factor in victory and yes the difference between the high tier and low tier characters in Brawl is apparently less extreme than Melee (to me anyway). But it is completely impossible for all of the almost 40 characters to be 100% evenly matched in all cases. Even with all the production time in the world with characters as different as say Metaknight and Solid Snake there will arise a tendency for victory for one or the other, now it is very possible that Brawl's characters could turn out to have a more Rock-Paper-Scissors like dynamic but with 39 different move sets to consider it would be a TIERED rock paper scissors dynamic. Just for example let us suppose hypothetically that the multi projectiled Link tends to beat projectileless Jigglypuff and that the aerial prowess of that puffball now causes trouble for the nerfed Fox. Let us further suppose that the fast furry can run circles around the hero of time; this relation ship isn't really tier in nature but that is only 3 characters out of 39 and this relationship has to break down when characters who are similar to each other are introduced. again hypothetically suppose that Snake out snipes link, metaknight out aerials jigglypuff and Wolf out yiffs Fox and boom you now have tires. Furthermore with the addition of completely off the wall characters like Olimar who is so different that completely balance with other characters is extraordinarily unlikely the likelyhood of tiers increases exponetually i.e. hugely different characters have a very high tendency to be gamebreakingly great or made of suck. also given our communities willingness to allow exploits unintended and unknown to the developers in competition the already hugely difficult task of balancing this many character become downright impossible. Finally look at the example of Warcraft III it only has 4 races, that's only 6 possible 1v1 match ups without having dupelicates or identical competitors, it still needed to be patched a lot to preserve balance brawl has 39 characters if you count transformation so thats 741 possible 1v1 matches; unless if Nintendo is going to patch Brawl 12350% more than blizzard has patched warcraft tiers will continue to exist. Knifeblade 05:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

oh, I thought those numbers meant that they hadn't signed the comment. I guess it wasn't clarient hawk after all. then again, if he has more than one account, it could be him... PeetzaLink 19:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that wasn't me. I only have this account...  Clarinet Hawk 16:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Knifeblade has the right idea. You cannot fight the tiers. They came for Smash64 and Melee - they will come for Brawl. The rock-paper-scissors thing is right. However, someone will always be better against more characters than others - top tier. If you want to have your main in that exhaulted position, develop strategies to allow Fox to get Jiggs, Link to pwn Snake (doubtful) - you get the idea. ≈≈≈≈Runer5h —Preceding unsigned comment added by Runer5h (talk • contribs) 14:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Well I was just being arbitrary with the characters in my hypothetical. Personally I don't think we will be able to say what the tier list is until we have a few more months to develop the strategies for characters and I personally think tournaments will be more varied in regards to character selection in Brawl as opposed to Melee as, at least to me, there is a less drastic difference between characters' abilities now. But back on topic I have found that Lucario is an excellent counterpick against hit and run play styles and a useful fighter whose main weakness is powerhouse characters like Bowser, DK, Wario, Ike etc... anyway Lucario is solidly upper-mid or possibly high tier. Also it is confusing when we are all using our own systems of tier ranking so I think we should agree on how many tiers we are talking about here I vote 6 Top, High, Upper-Mid, Lower-Mid, Low, BottomKnifeblade 03:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. And with that, I say we adjourn from the "Tiers are for..." topic, because; 1: It was a stupid topic anyways (who thought that they wouldn't make Smash 4 if we made tiers?) and, 2: We are now firmly back on discussing tier rankings. Runer5h 01:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

Meta Knight top tier?
It's only my opinion. He is fast, little, can combo easily, has 5 midair jump and can glide! He attacks very fast too, so I think (again, my opinion) he should be top tier. Mr. Game and Watch is way better now, he should be high or middle tier. Jigglypuff did lost her great aerial combo ability, and they make worst her rest move, plus it Smash Finals is almost uselees, why they do that to her :( Theonly thing I want, is that if a Tier List it's realised, anyone can give his/her opinion. --Jigglypuff is God 01:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC) --Jigglypuff is God 01:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, Metaknight is awesome. It was obvious before the game even came out that he'd be top tier. And don't think that he lacks KO moves! I use Olimar for tournaments, but I also use Metaknight for fun, and I know hhow to kill with him. My personal favorite finisher is his Down Smash, but I also use the Shuttle Loop, Glide Air (should that be g-air?), Neutral Air, and Side Smash.Runer5h 15:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

Guess what? Meta Knight is ranked 1st on my tier list! If you want to see the full tier list, head to the "Discussion" tab on the "Tier List" page. Then, go to the "Tier List Posted By Prima Guide" section and my tier list will be the last one in that section. However, it's not official by any means, and it's completely opinionated. When you're done looking it over, you can give me any feedback or questions you want back on this page. I hope you like it. - GalaxiaD 02:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Metaknight is good, but I have 3 words for you: Snake? Snake? SNAAAAAAAAKE!!! Why is Snake so awesome? Let's see: 1: 6 Projectiles. Count 'em; Grenades, Missile, C4, Up Smash, Down Smash, and Cypher (after he lets go).
 * A: His mines (D-Smash and C4). You can combo opponents into them (particularly the Smash mine). Also, with C4, you hardly need to sweetspot the edge when recovering. Just fly high into the air on the Cypher, and after you let go, drop a C4. Your opponent should be quite wary of approaching you. And as a last resort, blast yourself into the air with C4 to aid your recovery.
 * B: 'Nades and Nikita (or Remote Missile). Use the Nades to hamper your opponent's mobility along with the mines. Use the Nikita to hamper your opponent's recovery (it absorbs many projectiles too).
 * C: Mortar (his Up Smash). If you can time it right, you can get two rockets to hit your opponent at the same time - AWESOME. More practically, you can make yourself unapproachable, KO opponents above you, and (if timed right, but it's pretty easy) hit opponents into the falling rocket. The one drawback is that charging doesn't increase the strength... oh well.
 * D: Cypher. The only practical use for the projectile capabilities that I have found is in recovery. If you let go as your opponent tries to attack you, the Cypher will negate the attack.

2: Close Range moves. And Snake has some good ones. I'll focus on the dair, Neutral A and f-tilt, and Forward Smash.
 * A: Neutral A and F-Tilt. Snake's neutral A is useful for hitting opponents into mines or the Up Smash. Meanwhile, the F-Tilt has such a good Jab Fake that it has its own name: the Knee Lock.
 * B: Forward Smash. Uncharged, it does 23 damage. WOW. It is an awesome kill move. However, it is pretty slow - use it after your opponent does a laggy attack.
 * C: Dair. It is awesome. 4 downwards kicks, the last of which has killing power. When next to your opponent, Short Hop and use it. It does a lot of damage if all hits connect.
 * D: His other moves:
 * Bair - A useful move. It is relatively strong and quite fast.
 * Uair - Another useful move, for the same reasons.
 * Fair - This is hard, but if you hit with the heel, it's a solid spike.

See? Snake is awesome. Runer5h 23:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h


 * Irrespective of whether Snake is good, one thing he does not have is six projectiles.


 * Projectile
 * –noun
 * 1.	an object fired from a gun with an explosive propelling charge, such as a bullet, shell, rocket, or grenade.
 * 2.	a body projected or impelled forward, as through the air.
 * –adjective
 * 3.	impelling or driving forward, as a force.
 * 4.	caused by impulse, as motion.
 * 5.	capable of being impelled forward, as a missile.
 * '''6.	Zoology. protrusile, as the jaws of a fish.

'''
 * Let's run the numbers.
 * 1.Grenades. +
 * 2.Missle. +
 * 3.C4. Somewhat. It doesn't agree with the definition, but I might buy if you only are talking about it being dropped from the air.
 * 4.Mortor. +
 * 5.Mine. Absolutely not. Just because you defined what a projectile is (incorrectly) on the projectiles page (yes, I looked it up) does not mean that you can define A as B because you say so. A MINE is not projected, it is PLACED. Is not forwardly impelled, a bullet, shell, rocket or grenade.
 * 6.Cypher. What? No. Just because it has a hitbox does not make it a projectile. It flies up, so unless you're on a retarded stage and think it's a good idea to use your up B under a platform so you hit somebody with the Cypher (the CYPHER???111???11?, it's a bloody camera!) it functions more as a waste of time than a projectile.


 * This leaves Snake with 3 and a half projectiles. Oh wait. I forgot the box on his taunt so 4 if you insist.Semicolon 03:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In Smash, if it leaves Snake's collision hitbox, it's a projectile. But if you insist, he has 6 (not counting the box) attacks which can be a long distance away from him. Satisfied? And I said the Cypher was a projectile; I never said it was a good one. Runer5h 15:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Runer5h


 * Just because you made the page on projectiles and defined them as such does not mean that it is inherently correct. A projectile, as semicolon put it, must be projected.  Yes, Snake has a plethora of moves that can hit somewhere other than where he is, but that does not inherently make them projectiles.  I also don't get why you say that Snake should be top tier because of his projectiles and then turn around and say that it doesn't matter that half of them are ineffective.  For example, If I have four $100 dollar bills, but two of them are torn in half, I don't have $400.  I have $200.  Clarinet Hawk 16:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Arguing about Snake's projectiles? What about the tier list I told you to see? Or was this argument started by the fact that he ranks 22nd on my tier list? While Snake can be a very versatile fighter if used properly, there are still plenty of fighters in Brawl who can beat him. Snake is slow and he doesn't jump that high. I find those to be reason enough to place him 22nd on my tier list. It's okay, though. At least he's not in the bottom tier, and he's also able to beat many people. - GalaxiaD 20:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a tad bit presumptious and vain to assume that an arguement regarding Snake's projectiles would have anything to do with a Tier list where you ranked Snake as 22nd. Considering I've been posting for only a few minutes now, and more than less likely, incorrectly, please don't assume that I'm simply out to attack your posts, Mr. D, it's just that the posts that I'm seeing are frequently off-topic and metanight/pit propoganda. Please try and work on that. -FlagLapelOnMyChest —Preceding unsigned comment added by FlagLapelOnMyChest (talk • contribs) 14:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to bring up a point that will hopefully (but probably won't) end this disscussion. This quote from an unsigned user stated "Tiers DO exist. However tiers are NOT the same for everyone." everyone is going to have characters they are better with then other characters, but some people are just better with their own character then others are with theirs. and while this unsigned user referred to this as "tiers", it's really just personal preference. PeetzaLink 21:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

King Dedede
Hear me out. Yes, he is quite slow, but he has multiple jumps, is heavy, great Up-B, and a great powerhouse. He can tech chainthrow with his down throw. His Waddle Dees and Doos can stop approaches, and he even can (quite often) pull out a Gordo to KO or a capsule, which may yield Hammers or even Smash Balls! Also, you can walk around and jump while charging the Jet Hammer, making it the only charge move to be able to do so. Runer5h 02:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

How many times must this be stated: items are banned in tournaments! Even if he did pull a capsule, nothing would appear out of it! It would just be a strong projectile. Also, being big and slow can yield crushing disadvantages, such as being comboed, so King Dedede belongs in the middle tier. Strangely, a lot of people have been raving about him lately, but in reality, I think middle tier is all he'll make. - GalaxiaD 02:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While I don't agree with the statement that DeDeDe is top tier, the item point is a good one. Even if the items are turned off, he can pull out a capsule that would have items in it.  I've seen Smash Balls in games with items turned off. Clarinet Hawk 16:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * GalaxiaD, you are WRONG!!!!!!!!! I've done no items matches before, and DDD has still pulled out a capsule that makes a Smash Ball. Oh, right... Clarinet Hawk already said that. Runer5h 17:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

I've also seen this happen before. I was playing classic, and on the master hand fight, I saw a fire flower in my hand took snapshot of it. PeetzaLink 19:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Nice "Superman Returns" reference. Anyway, I get it now that items can still spawn when items are turned off. I just don't play with DDD much, and when I do, he doesn't ever spawn a capsule, though I have seen the computer do it. Still, it's because of his size and slowness that he'll end up in the middle tier, and I think we can all agree on that. - GalaxiaD 19:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it should be some kind of upper middler tier.--Jigglypuff is God 14:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yea, he's a good character, and his up tilt has a good deal of knockback (in some cases, it's knockback is even stronger then his Up smash XD) and he can still spawn items if the item frequency is set to none or low. I'd place him at top tier, but only in the hands ofpeople who are skilled with him. BTW, anyone who spawns an attack like thunder, or Ike's Up B is a cheap player. (You know when he's cheap when you hear thunder a second time after being attacked) Learner4 (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, tier's always assume skilled players. Secondly, an attack being cheep doesn't mean a thing in competitive play.  If it helps you win, it helps you win.  Period.  As for Dedede, you barely give a good reason for him to be top tier.  Sure he can spawn items, but the chance of that is around 1%.  As for his up-tilt, many characters have great up tilts.  That alone doesn't make them a top tier character.  Clarinet Hawk (talk · contributions) 02:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Olimar
You can all tell that Olimar is my favorite, and I think he is good. He has versatile projectiles, can camp really well, has some surprisingly good Super Armor, and disjointed hitboxes from his Pikmin. The two main arguments against him are "He is weak without Pikmin" and "He can be edgehogged". These are true, but you can ameliorate both. Runer5h 22:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
 * 1) "Weak without Pikmin". The obvious solution is to have your Pikmin with you always. How?
 * 2) Pikmin Order. It is one of Olimar's most important moves. It can call back Pikmin, even while they are latched onto someone. If all your Pikmin are present, it reorders them, which is vital to avoiding edgehoggage - you'll see why. (PO also gives Super Armor.)
 * 3) Pikmin Pluck. If you notice that you are a couple of Pikmin short, or hear a Pikmin give a death cry, pluck. It is fast, so just get onto the ground and use it. Just don't do it if you are right next to an edge and facing away from it; they all fall off (thus making you feel stupid).
 * 4) "Easily edgehogged". Not if you do this:
 * 5) Get a Purple Pikmin first in your line-up. Use Pikmin Order to do this. Congratulations! You now can blast opponents off the edge and get on yourself.
 * 6) Chuck a Pikmin at the hogger. They will often get right off the edge instinctively to avoid the Pikmin or get it off. Free edge!

OK, you make some good points about how to avoid Olimar's weaknessess, but they don't work as consistently as you claim they do. First of all, Olimar has to be on the ground to pluck Pikmin. Here's the catch, when he's most vulnerable without them is when he's in the air. And if you get hit, you lose Pikmin. So most times you get hit off the stage, your Pikmin are not all going to be with you. As far as the edgehogging goes, your strategy is highly conditional and relies partially on your opponents inexperience. First, it's dependent on you having a purple Pikmin first in your line up. This in and of itself requires a fair amount of luck that you have the purple Pikmin and it is first in your lineup. Of course, if you alwasy go around with a purple Pikmin as your first one, you'll lose range and become predictable. Secondly, the idea of hitting the opponent with the purple Pikmin to blast the opponent off the ledge won't work on a good edgehogger because they will exploit the invincibility frames of a ledge grab. As far as throwing Pikmin at your opponent is concerned, any good play will trade %10 damage for a sure kill any day. Remember that when we're discussing tiers we're talking about the highest levels of play. These players aren't going to make poor instinctual reactions, but are going to be constantly going through the options of how best to kill their opponent. Olimar is not a bad character (although I am not a good Olimar player myself), but he does suffer from some very easily exploited weaknesses. I'd put him in maybe the top 15 characters, but not the top tier. Clarinet Hawk 16:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I am an Olimar player, and I haven't noticed these problems, but I still see your point. You're right. I never really expected to see him in, say, the top 5, but I think he is high up there. Runer5h 19:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h

Maybe Middle top is where he should be, he can deal tons of damage in such quick timing (or short notice if you want a more used form), and properly skilled Olimar players will know when to whistle his or her pikmin after throwing them. The ones who arn't AS skilled as profesionals MAY try to continuously throw them (it doesn't mean they will). Other good points on Olimar are his defensive points, Certain pikmin are immune from damage from certain attacks (E.G. Yellow are immune to electric attacks, so if you throw one in front of the path of a Charge Shot, the pikmin will only take the knockback not the damage, making the move BASICALLY useless (the yellow might be sent flying off the map). His other good attributes (not sure if thats the word) are the usefulness of his tilts, even when without pikmin, because his tilts+mid air attack have decent knockback for tilts. (Up tilt+mid air attack do pretty good damage) His final smash is: . . . Powerful! What else do you want? His midair attacks WITH pikmin have great knock back, usually it takes two to three mid air attacks (with pikmin that can deal good knockback) to KO an oppoent by forcing him to lose all his jumps, and of course, if repetedly forcing him off the stage doesn't work, then you can always try his d-air (miDAIR :D [just noticed that]) if potitioned corectly, then it makes for a great spike, guaranteeing a KO. Also On some stages, his Up B can reach through floors (6 pikmin are used), like on Spear Pillar (although I frown upon using it), you stand in the cavern, jump, then you use it, the pikmin will extend like normal, and for a brief moment, they will be able to damage your opponents (if they are standing on the higher floor at the right spot) before the game moves them like if they hit a wall (or ceiling). His grab has good range and little lag. However, despite all these good abilities of Olimar, he still is Middle Top teir for me. Learner4 (talk) 13:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Slow characters DO NOT SUCK
You guys need to pull your heads out of you-know-where and realize SPEED DOESN'T MATTER AS MUCH AS IT ID IN MELEE. I can get my butt kicked with Sheik (which I am good with by the way) against Ike who just-so-happens to be one of the slowest characters in the game. For ex: higher in the page, someone claimed Dedede is top-tier worthy. Someone replied "omg slow low tier!!!!!!!!!!" ok I'm exaggerating, but that is the way people think. Also, ya know Fox? Yeah. He was top-tier in Melee. But now, he sucks pretty much. He can't kill until very high percentages, his usmash was weakened, shine has variable knockback now, his uair also sucks, etc. Speed doesn't automatically make a character good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.223.169.119 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

1. You're right. As balanced as the characters are this time around, I'd have to say that speedy characters and slow characters alike have their own advantages. Forming a tier list will be harder this time around. 2. This is, what, the 100th post I've seen that has put down Fox? He can SHTL now! Back in Melee, he could only SHDL. His Up Smash is only slightly nerfed. It can still kill around 80% damage or so. His Up Aerial is also still an effective killing move that can juggle easily. Also, Shine Hovering returns, and can still be used to stall. Though there are a few characters now that I believe have surpassed him, he'll still make high tier. Give Fox a chance! - GalaxiaD 21:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No one ever said that speed inherently makes one character better than another. But speed is a definite advantage. Being slow is a disadvantage that can be made up for, but it must be considered. Also, when we talk about speed, it's not just the running speed. We're also considering speed of attacks, lag time, and the like. All of these factor into how a character plays. If two characters were exactly the same except for speed, the faster one would be better. This is of course never the case with characters. You will never hear me say that a character is bad simply because of their lack of speed. But if they do not compensate for that speed in other areas, they will not be top tier. Also, fast does not inherently equal good. What I'm saying is that there is no one characteristic that makes a character top tier, but there are certain inherent advantages and disadvantages to traits. Speed is an advantage. Clarinet Hawk 23:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This is what I think are the criteria for being top tier (this is a long list): See? There is a huge list of things to consider for being top tier. Speed is only one. However, it is fairly important. Runer5h 20:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)Runer5h
 * Attack Strength
 * Attack Speed
 * Attack Lag
 * Combo/Juggle ability
 * Kill ability
 * Direction of Knockback
 * Knockback resistance
 * Falling Speed
 * Height/horizontal distance of Up-B
 * Height/Horizontal distance of alternate recovery moves
 * Number of projectiles
 * Usefulness of projectiles
 * Ability to reflect projectiles
 * Grab Range
 * Chainthrow ability
 * Running Speed
 * Jump height
 * Total Metagame
 * Other (like Gliding, Floating, etc.)