Talk:List of minor third-party universes

The Wonderful 101 and Glory of Heracles
Nintendo owns both The Wonderful 101 and Glory of Heracles series. For The Wonderful 101, Nintendo owns the trademark and shares the copyright with Platinum Games, just like Astral Chain. The same is true for Glory of Heracles (Nintendo owns the trademark, while Paon and Nintendo co-own the copyright). In other words, the status of these works is the same as the status for Pokemon, where Nintendo shares the copyright, but solely owns the trademark. Thus, I think both these games should be moved to the Nintendo games page.Super Smash Lover (talk) 21:28, June 17, 2020 (EDT)

Getsu Fuma Den?
How is After Burner, a franchise represented through a remix of a song in another universe, a dependent universe, yet Getsu Fuma Den, a franchise represented through a remix of a song in another universe, a full universe? MrStrawberries (talk) 13:58, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * It's mostly due to uncertainty.
 * The rule for a dependent universe is that the universe must be technically represented, but all its representation is considered to be representation of a different universe and not be acknowledged (i.e. After Burner's music track is categorized as a Bayonetta track and Cody from Final Fight is categorized as a Street Fighter spirit. Neither instance actually lists their true origins).
 * The Getsu Fuma Den music track technically falls under the former, but unlike the After Burner track, the game of origin is actually listed in the Sound Test menu. It's also the same case for several Namco and SNK universes.
 * The only problem is that the Getsu Fuma Den track is ripped directly from a Castlevania game, whereas the other Namco and SNK music series' tracks atleast come from their origin game.
 * Hope this answers your question. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 16:04, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * Eh, MrStrawberries makes a fair point. While the Sound Test doesn't list the After Burner track from Bayonetta as being from After Burner the same way it does for Go! Getsu Fuma, it's clearly the same case in every other respect and the amount of "represented content" is identical. I see no reason for it to be counted separately. Miles ( talk)   16:38, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * Just to clarify, I wasn't against the idea of moving it to the dependent universes section, just very unsure.
 * Anyway, while we're on the subject of "dependent universes", how should we handle the other two NES Zapper games (Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley)? While all content from both are considered Duck Hunt representation (except with the case of the Wild Gunman sticker in Brawl), they seem to be going more in the direction of the miscellaneous Namco and SNK universes than the "dependent" universes.
 * While you could also argue that the Duck Hunt universe is supposed to be more of an "NES Zapper" universe, never once has that been the name in the series to describe all three games (the SSB4 Trophy Gallery calls it "Duck Hunt" and the other two Zapper spirits do list their games of origin) and the series symbol strongly implies that the universe is solely supposed to be Duck Hunt, just with the other Zapper games joining in as well, not quite unlike how Pac-Man has element of other Namco properties in his moveset (Mappy trampoline, Galaxian "fruit", Galaga beam grab, etc.).
 * Although the issue is also complicated by the fact that no Namco or SNK trophies/spirits that aren't from Pac-Man or Fatal Fury are categorized as Pac-Man or Fatal Fury property respectively, whereas any trophy/spirit related to Wild Gunman and Hogan's Alley is categorized as Duck Hunt property, so there's that. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 17:32, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'm the one who moved After Burner to being a dependent universe, and I was considering moving Getsu Fuma Den as well, if not for its true origin being listed directly in the game (versus the After Burner song only being listed as coming from Bayonetta). It is a little complicated, and I wouldn't mind giving it its own section again, but it's only indirectly mentioned at most. ~ Serena Strawberry  (talk) 17:44, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

For that matter, does Guiness World Records count as a franchise referenced through the Tips? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.239.25 (talk • contribs) 17:59, August 12, 2020 (EDT)
 * If this is about GWR getting its own section, a universe only gets a section here if it received direct representation in the Smash series (such as collectibles, Mii costumes, or music). GWR was only mentioned in a Tip, so it's not worth giving it its own section.
 * If this is about it going on the "dependent universes" sub-list, it's not a video game property, so it more belongs here. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 19:26, August 12, 2020 (EDT)

Question about musical references
The Midna's Lament remix by Hideaki Kobayashi in Ultimate contains a tiny portion of the main theme of Phantasy Star Online. I was wondering if this was enough to garner an entry on the page as a minor universe. I know I'm biased, because it's my favorite game, but I'm just curious. -- Apocalypso (talk) 18:02, August 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * This edit summary pretty much explains why that game is not on the list. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 18:23, August 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't really see how the reference wasn't intentional. Hideaki Kobayashi composed the PSO soundtrack, and that's his biggest claim to fame, so it would make sense if he put that in there. Plus, I can't find a single song in the Zelda universe that matches the notes and rhythm. I'm 99% certain it's intentional. -- Apocalypso (talk) 20:05, August 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * You may claim it's 99% intentional, but as far as I'm aware, there's no clear-cut confirmation that the similarities were intentional. We're not the kind of Wiki to make speculations. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 22:06, August 28, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well, in any case, if we get a Phantasy Star Online Spirit Event this year to commemorate PSO's 20th anniversary (which, while I don't think necessarily WILL happen, but I certainly want to), then I'll get my way regardless. -- Apocalypso (talk) 10:10, August 29, 2020 (EDT)
 * I suppose for that matter, the menu theme of Melee sounding like Terranigma falls under similar territory? https://youtu.be/GxpJVR9G4nY?t=3119

I think I brought this up in another edit summary, but even if it was the same composer, I don't think it's an intentional, no. Since this is a Zelda song, the composer most likely wouldn't include a reference to an unrelated game without a good reason. With music, you'll often find that segments of melodies can unintentionally resemble other songs, and without explicit confirmation, you can't know if they'd meant it as an intentional reference or if it was simply them reusing an idea that came to their head before. Another example is that the main theme of Melee contains a segment that sounds similar to Butter Building from Kirby's Adventure, but was likely not intended, even though the composer also worked on Kirby games; there isn't any particular reason for the melody to be a reference. It mostly just comes down to speculation, which is discouraged on the wiki. ~ Serena Strawberry  (talk) 18:28, October 14, 2020 (EDT)

Should Pong count as a dependent universe?
Since the TV Game AT is based off of something only imitating Pong (albeit extremely strongly compared to the following examples), should it really be counted as a dependent universe like the others are? Shouldn't that also mean accounting for other video game series referenced through some imitation of them found in Smash in whatever way? Like Shovel Knight I think imitating Scrooge McDuck's "cane pogo stick" move from the Ducktales game, or Smash 4's Target game imitating Angry Birds (or Crush the Castle or whatever), or the examples listed above on this very talk page of music that sounds like it might be referencing certain games? Then again, is it simply because the TV Game AT is so abundantly clear in its parroting by being a literal clone of Pong (without having legal issues, too) as opposed to other examples that are kinda more vague? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 21:35, January 2, 2021 (EDT)
 * Hmm, I'm not sure. I'm kind of iffy on the idea of a "dependent universes" section in general. I would say this doesn't count, though; even if it's very obviously a Pong clone, legally it's not referencing Pong. ~ StrawberryChan  (talk) 22:00, January 2, 2021 (EST)
 * What about Magnavox? The Table Tennis game on the Magnavox Odyssey pre-dates Pong (Magnavox sued Atari for ripping them off). Nintendo distributed the Odyssey in Japan, and got a license from Magnavox to produce their own tennis games on their Color TV-Game systems. Although the Color TV-Game features scoring (which Pong did but the original Magnavox game didn't), I think Nintendo's connection to Magnavox might warrant the original Table Tennis game a mention here. --Clandohoome (talk) 13:41, January 3, 2021 (EST)

This edit
I'm not about to start an edit war, but I thought I'd come here with some interesting information:

I asked a friend of mine who's a huge Kingdom Hearts II nerd, and according to him, not only does Octaslash in Advent Children not look like the Octaslash from KHII, but that particular scene is exclusively from Advent Children Complete, which came out in 2009, four years after Kingdom Hearts II came out in 2005.

However, neither the Kingdom Hearts Wikia nor Kingdom Hearts Wiki have any mention of an attack named "Glint", and an attack under the name "Continuous Slash" (the translation of on the Final Fantasy Wiki) doesn't even belong to Sephiroth in KHII. The FF Wiki also specifies: "Though the attacks resemble Octaslash, Kingdom Hearts II predates Crisis Core, where the attack first appeared and was named." Aidan,  the Celebratory Rurouni  22:53, January 6, 2021 (EST)
 * Not gonna lie, I didn't even notice the "Complete" part on the "Advent Children" section of Octaslash's FF Wiki page, so I just assumed Advent Children had the earliest prototype for Octaslash. Guess I jumped the gun on that one. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 23:02, January 6, 2021 (EST)
 * Crisis Core still predates Advent Children Complete either way, given that it came out in Japan in 2007. Aidan,  the Celebratory Rurouni  23:25, January 6, 2021 (EST)

Minecraft Creeper costume
Is it possible the Creeper costume references the Creeper costume found in Terraria as a dependent universe? That also had a bipedal Creeper costume. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 21:36, January 10, 2021 (EST)

Someone forgot to put double Eleven in the list of minor companies
Someone forgot to put double Eleven in the list of minor companies if you forgot who they are they developed and that is represented by 2 songs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.147.53 (talk • contribs) 09:44, January 29, 2021 (EST)
 * There's already a talk page that discusses about companies with minor representation. Please discuss there, instead. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 11:00, January 29, 2021 (EST)

Thank you
Thank you to whoever added kingdom hearts to the "Dependent universes" section and fixed all the grammatical Errors I made and went over my head 73.15.147.53 17:26, January 31, 2021 (EST)

Should tech demos count?
their are some game that were influenced by their tech demo counterpart or tech demos that became games under a new coat of paint or in some case, new features 73.15.147.53 17:32, January 31, 2021 (EST)
 * Unreleased versions of games generally are not counted, so something like "Star Fox Adventures derives from Dinosaur Planet" or "Nintendo Labo Robot Kit is inspired by Miyamoto's Project Giant Robot demo" would be unnecessary considering in both cases the latter was never a finished game to begin with. Miles ( talk)   18:22, January 31, 2021 (EST)

Should NiGHTs into dreams count
Should it be apart of Dependent universes since one of sonic's alternative costume, and before you say no, 2 words, Anarchy Reins 73.15.147.53 14:49, February 2, 2021 (EST)
 * Half of Bayonetta's alternate costumes are directly based on her appearance in Anarchy Reigns, even the pose used for official renders is nearly identical to her official AR pose. The NiGHTs resemblance is just that, a resemblance. Though I'm not sure of any other characters that reference a series outside of their own, so I'm not sure how to fully judge this. --CanvasK (talk) 15:03, February 2, 2021 (EST)

The idea that Sonic's costume is based on Nights is, at best, speculative - and certainly not definite enough to count for this page. Miles ( talk)  15:33, February 2, 2021 (EST)

Should infineminer and/or Zombie land count?
I mean the former was the main inspiration, and the latter had the same model on what would be Steve 73.15.147.53 01:59, February 7, 2021 (EST)
 * Pretty sure the latter one is speculation. Also, we don't just note every universe that inspired certain assets of other universes because that would 1) bloat the page with gazillion borderline-related universes and 2) its unneeded. Superbound (talk) 10:41, February 7, 2021 (EST)
 * On a side note, what on earth is this Zombie Land game you're talking about? I tried looking it up, but all I could find are the horror-comedy movie franchise of the same name and its video game adaptation. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 10:53, February 7, 2021 (EST)

I meant Zombie town, oops :p. 73.15.147.53 14:54, February 7, 2021 (EST)

Zombie Town is a video made by the creator of Minecraft to test the Human Mob model and texture. The video is currently unplayable in most countries. infineminer is just the inspiration of Minecraft and infineminer has no content in Smash. Thegameandwatch   The Nerd  14:26, February 8, 2021 (EST)

I don't think so, otherwise we'd have to include Popeye for inspiring Donkey Kong and Joust for inspiring Mario Bros. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 17:15, February 14, 2021 (EST)

On the subject of Yokai Dochuki vs. Shadow Land
As the one who made the earliest version of this page, my info came from fairly cursory Wikipedia research in 2015 which, at the time, used the name Shadow Land. It seems like there may have been some confusion as the game's title screen does use that name, but so far as I can tell it may never have gotten an actual English release under that title. Someone more knowledgeable could provide more information, though, since I'm not too sure I have all the facts right even now. Miles ( talk)  20:14, February 20, 2021 (EST)
 * My best guess is that the game had an English localization prepared for an international release, but never actually was released outside of Japan; something similar happened with Puyo Puyo, which had an English localization that apparently only ever saw a release in Spain. TCRF has details about the differences between Yokai Dochuki and Shadowland, but only lists a Japanese release date. Since Smash itself uses Yokai Dochuki, it's unclear whether Shadowland is even official, but it's unlikely Namco will acknowledge it regardless. ~ StrawberryChan  (talk) 20:32, February 20, 2021 (EST)

Romance of the three kingdoms
Since the warriors series was a spin off of that series, I think we should include that series as well. AgedofallStrings (talk) 22:20, February 23, 2021 (EST)
 * I'm gonna say no to that, especially since that series has no direct representation of any sorts. Not to mention that, although initially a spin-off to Rot3K, Warriors has evolved into its own series and even has installments that aren't related to that series in the slightest. The only piece of Warriors content represented in Smash so far is Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity, which has nothing to do with Rot3K at all. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 22:48, February 23, 2021 (EST)

Xeno
Should Xeno be counted as a Dependent universe Since Some of Pyra & mythra's alts have some references to some Xenosaga characters, or is it paired up with Xenoblade. are they apart of the same series, or is Xenoblade a sub-series, if so, Megami tensei is on here so Should I add it here? AgedofallStrings (talk) 23:31, March 9, 2021 (EST)
 * The main thing is that there aren't any direct references to the previous Xeno series in Smash; the alternate palettes don't have much substantial evidence for being references. Megami Tensei is mentioned primarily due to Tokyo Mirage Sessions, a crossover of Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem, having representation through a spirit; there are other references to it in Persona that are carried into Joker's Smash representation. The overarching Xeno series is already mentioned on the page, and I think it's fine to just leave it at that. ~  StrawberryChan  (talk) 23:34, March 9, 2021 (EST)

I understand, thank you AgedofallStrings (talk) 23:37, March 9, 2021 (EST)

Puyo Puyo
King Dedede's Current design is based on his appearence in Kirby avalanche, which is a reskin of the first puyo puyo game. AgedofallStrings (talk) 16:10, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * That's a HUGE stretch for a universe, and Dedede's current design appeared in Kirby's Adventure instruction booklet if I'm not mistaken. Superbound (talk) 16:25, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * @Superbound: I tried looking up the instruction booklet for Kirby's Adventure, but I can't find anything that remotely resembles Dedede's current design (the only piece of artwork of him that's original to that booklet has a blue stomach, thus heavily implying the original design), thus meaning his in-game sprite in Avalanche might be the earliest appearance of his cream-body design.
 * That being said, you are right that this a huuuuuuuge stretch. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 16:30, March 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Good thing I didn't add it before we discussed it. AgedofallStrings (talk) 16:36, March 24, 2021 (EDT)

Xeno pt2
So I was watching a Xc2 compilation video when I saw that Pyra’s core crystal looks to be based on the Zothar from Xenogears and XenoSaGa. AgedofallStrings (talk) 12:02, April 8, 2021 (EDT)
 * As before, at the most generous the Xeno references in Smash are extremely indirect and not really worth discussing in-depth here. If, hypothetically, they had done a spirit of non-Xenoblade content as it appeared in a Xenoblade game, that would qualify in the same vein as the Getsu Fuma Den or After Burner content. As it stands, though, nothing about the Xenoblade stuff in Smash is overtly Xenogears or Xenosaga enough to qualify. Miles ( talk)   14:47, April 8, 2021 (EDT)
 * Don't have much to add to this argument, but I do want to bring up something regarding the whole Xenosaga spirit thing. If a Xenosaga spirit being only based on their appearance from Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (even to the point of being labelled with the Xenoblade series symbol and given the "Xenoblade Chronicles Series" tag) is still enough to contribute an entire section for Xenosaga, then by that logic, shouldn't the same also apply to Final Fight as well (given Cody has a spirit that is 100% Street Fighter-labeled, both symbol and series tag)? SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 16:55, April 14, 2021 (EDT)
 * I wasn't making a distinction between the full sections on this page versus the "dependent universes" section, and we already cover Final Fight in the latter. I don't have a strong preference over whether Cody's spirit is enough to bump it up to having its own section or not (and the above-mentioned hypothetical would be in the same boat). Miles ( talk)   17:08, April 14, 2021 (EDT)
 * Then Dependent if XenoSaGa were to be represented with 100% Xenoblade AgedofallStrings (talk) 17:16, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

A question regarding potential Atlus universes
So on this page, we tend to make greater sections that are titled "*insert company here* series" if more than one of a company's IPs qualify for this list (for example, Capcom has a greater section due to both Resident Evil and Ghosts 'n Goblins being minor universes).

This does open the question on how we should handle Atlus universes (like, say, Etrian Odyssey or Trauma Center) should they end up onto this page: Should they be categorized under the "Sega series" section since they're technically Sega-owned IPs or should Atlus get its own category since their games are almost never released under the "Sega" name? SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe  12:26, May 1, 2021 (EDT)
 * Hypothetically, I don't see why they wouldn't be sorted as Sega-owned at this point, though of course Atlus would be mentioned in the text and infobox as well. Miles ( talk)   12:52, May 1, 2021 (EDT)

Does name entry referencing Conker in Melee count?
https://twitter.com/Facts_About_BK/status/1358466829434449920

I assume like certain alternate costume references they don't because it's reference is still vague enough to be interpreted as something else, but is that correct? Also what about all of Chronicle's mentioned universes in Brawl, at least as its own catch-all grouped bullet point of the article with a link to the Chronicle page? EDIT: Other examples of alt costumes resembling stuff beyond their series for the heck of it are Banjo's looking like Conker, and for series in-game, Robin's looking like FF Mage and Incineroar's looking like Sonic Big the Cat. Are there any others? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 2021 May 28
 * Universes whose representation is nothing more than a simple mention aren't really notable enough to qualify for this page, in my opinion. (Oh, and if you're really interested, I did make a draft that shows what a "List of Chronicle universes" would be like) SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 16:29, May 28, 2021 (EDT)
 * Well technically that's all Rad Mobile is, but admittedly even that says the game title outright rather than vaguely implying it (hopefully you don't remove it!). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.210.113 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 2021 May 30
 * Oh, I completely forgot Rad Mobile was even on the dependent universes section. XP
 * Anyway, I'm rather iffy on the Conker one since it's really more of a witty reference than an actual form of representation, but I am completely against putting all the Chronicle-only universes on the "dependent universes" section and would rather give them their own section should we agree to include them here. SmashTurtlesSig1.png SuperSmashTurtles of the  Turtle Tribe SmashTurtlesSig2.png 23:11, May 29, 2021 (EDT)
 * Maybe, although, should we move Series like Meteos or Killer Instinct there, or add the fact that they are on the chronicle on their entries in the Dependent Universe section? AgedofallStrings (talk) 23:35, May 29, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'd say at the very least mention the Chronicle mention in the text those universes have in dependent universes; the Chronicle gets mentioned for the Banjo-Kazooie/Wii Fit/Final Fantasy universes as a presence in Brawl, right? So it'd just be more consistent. 82.30.210.113 30.05.2021 15:14

First off, you need to sign your comments ( ~ ). As for this one, there's a difference between a minor reference than having actual representation. Conker is just a random name, his series is not actually represented in any way in Smash. If Conker had an actual direct reference, such as maybe a cameo of Conker himself, then that would be different, but being mentioned as a single name isn't enough to be considered a universe being represented. This isn't like, let's say, Goldeneye which is directly represented by the motion sensor bomb in 64 and Melee. Rad Mobile is also a special case since that's where Sonic originated.  Omegα Toαd,  the Toαd Wαrrior.  (I'm the best!)  01:43, May 30, 2021 (EDT)

I understand why you feel like that but it’s also such a special case, like as far as I know there aren’t any other things that obviously a name from a game. I’d just put it in dependent but if you really are against it I understand.RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 20:40, September 23, 2021 (EDT)

Rally-X
If the Special Flag is in Smash, why isn't there an entire page to the series, yet Series like or  Get entire pages just for having items, So why not Rally-X, Galaga In particular has both a Item and a Song. AgedofallStrings (talk) 15:19, June 12, 2021 (EDT)
 * I was under the impression that, while the Special Flag may have formally debuted in Rally-X, its inclusion in Smash isn't necessarily tied to a specific game in the same way as other items. Rather, it seems to be a general Namco inclusion due to its appearance in many games. Even its SSB4 trophy focuses more on its appearance in Xevious than in Rally-X, making it difficult to place as being specifically Rally-X representation. Miles ( talk)   15:41, June 12, 2021 (EDT)

Marvelous and Ubisoft
Shouldn't the Marvelous and Ubisoft universes be placed under the "Others" content? Granted, they have two or more universes represented, but they're represented in smaller ways, and those companies have yet to recieve major representations. Juju1995 (talk) 17:36, December 19, 2022 (EST)
 * I would be fine moving them down to the "Others" section, although honestly I think it would alternatively be fine to axe the company-by-company top-level headers entirely and just have a big alphabetical list that's easier to navigate instead. Miles ( talk)   17:40, December 19, 2022 (EST)