Forum:Adding Spirit battle sections to stages (similar to the ones on Fighter pages)

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Forums: Index Proposals Adding Spirit battle sections to stages (similar to the ones on Fighter pages)
Proposed.png This discussion is in regards to a proposed change on SmashWiki. The discussion must first meet with a consensus before it is implemented.

If you haven't seen them around, every fighter's SSBU page has an "In Spirit battles" section that lists every Spirit that uses them as a puppet fighter. The core of this post is pretty simple: I believe that if a list of every Spirit battle in which a specific fighter appears is worthy of inclusion, then a list of every Spirit battle taking place on a specific stage is also worthy of inclusion. Most stages are only used in five or so battles, so I don't think it would make any page particularly long. It was brought to my attention that I should make a proposal for this, and so I'm doing it now. (Just a heads-up: I highly suspect the merit of the sections on fighter pages is going to be debated here as well.) Ahemtoday (talk) 12:42, June 22, 2019 (EDT)


To be honest, doesn’t it kind of bloat the fighter pages? And like it was mentioned, we’d have to be constantly be updating on ALL of the stages, not to mention ALL of the fighter pages with new Spirts. Along with the actual Spirit pages, we’d have to be constantly updating over 200 pages. That doesn’t seem practical at all. I think Spirit Battles should only be of the Spirit pages, and not bloating the stage and fighter pages. Plus, it’s just repeated information. Like stickers, I think only the images of the Spirits are necessary on the non-Spirit pages. 47.199.39.81 12:56, June 22, 2019 (EDT)

I think you overestimate how difficult it would be to update the pages - it's not like every single one needs to be updated when DLC spirits get added, just the ones that appear in the new spirit battles. And that's not a lot - the most that have been added at once are the ones that come with Joker's DLC, which had eleven spirits. Unless they're secretly planning to drop a hundred or so on us, I don't think it'd be an issue. Not to mention, adding Spirits to the section isn't very difficult. It's basically just a copypaste job. Ahemtoday (talk) 13:17, June 22, 2019 (EDT)

That word you used, “copy paste”? That’s precisely the problem. Just “repeated” information that it perfectly fine on the Spirit pages. It is “redundant” to add the same information in numerous places. The exceptions is where it makes sense AND doesn’t bloat the page. Trophies and stickers are examples of acceptable repeated information. Spirit Battles are basically Ultimate’s event matches, which aren’t listed on the stage or fighter pages. 47.199.39.81 13:32, June 22, 2019 (EDT)

Well, I'd like to challenge the notion that it isn't useful. If I want to look at all the spirits that, say, Dark Pit represents (because I'm curious in what situations he would be used over regular Pit), if the "In Spirit battles" section didn't exist, what would I do then? Comb through all thirty or so Spirit articles just to find the four times Dark Pit shows up? Ahemtoday (talk) 15:05, June 22, 2019 (EDT)

Couldn't you just use Ctrl-F to find them? The Spirit Battles already list what stage they take place on, so there does not seem to be a need to list them on the stage pages. I do agree with 47.199.39.81 in that it seems to just be a replacement for events. With that in mind, I don't really see a need to list the Spirit Battles on the character pages either, especially when you can just use use Ctrl-F. There is currently a page up for deletion called "List of spirits (complete list)", which is targeted for deletion for repetition (Using Ctrl-F is as an example in favor of deleting it). I feel that this is a similar, if not the same, kind of situation. Wolff (talk) 13:59, June 23, 2019 (EDT)

Ctrl-F makes it easier, but you still have to open thirty seperate pages to find them all, which is, as they say, a lot - and I don't think making people open thirty tabs at once is worth it to eliminate "redundancy". Ahemtoday (talk) 16:53, June 23, 2019 (EDT)

Even so, there needs to be others who share your thoughts (proposals are not vote based) in order for this action to be carried out. If not, the discussion will be considered a failure and the proposal will be dropped after some time. Wolff (talk) 17:18, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
Well, if nobody shows up to back me up, so be it. I mean, what else am I gonna do, recruit people by force? Ahemtoday (talk) 22:23, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

Support I believe it would be useful to know which stages are used in Spirit Battles. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer Leave a message if needed 14:17, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

I feel that listing which Fighters and Stages a Spirit Battle has would be better if it was a different page somehow, so that it doesn't bloat the pages at all. Wolff (talk) 13:41, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
I'd be amenable to that, but the problem is: I can't think of a decent layout for such a page. Surely it can't just have a section for every fighter, and then a section for every stage - that'd basically be a list of all spirit battles that you can't sort. If we had, like, some fancy custom code it could work, but within the confines of this wiki's formatting system I don't see it working out well. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:39, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
I'd like to refer to what 47.199.39.81 said; It is “redundant” to add the same information in numerous places. The exceptions is where it makes sense AND doesn’t bloat the page. Although it makes some kind of sense to have them there, it does end up repeat information we already have on the Spirit pages themselves, which causes bloat to the page. Given the concept of the Spirit Battles, it appaers to be easier to figure out why a specific character was chosen over another regarding the Spirits themselves, not the other way around. If the main reason is to find out which characters' they were the inspiration for their participation in the fight, that can easily be added into the info of the Spirit lists. I honestly cannot see a prominent reason to have the "battles" list on the "fighter" and "stage" pages and repeating the info again.
However, much like how having multiple pictures for the infoboxes was not possible before, the wiki can possibly add something that could help organize the battles if we made the individual pages for them. Wolff (talk) 21:06, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
I will cede that wanting to know what types of character a certain fighter is used for is a bit of a niche case. I guess I don't have an argument there. However, you put forth an interesting possibility with the idea of listing the inspirations of each Spirit battle on the "List of spirits (X series)" pages. That relocates the non-duplicate info from these sections, yes, but it could also encompass other aspects of the Spirit battles as well. Ahemtoday (talk) 21:56, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
The inspiration info probably would only apply to the supported fighters that may not be explained by the Spirit itself. Some are self-explanatory like "Wall-Merged Link" with Young Link being Link and Mr. Game & Watch being the flatness, as well as the ones of the fighters themselves. Some may not be as obvious like "Agatha", having Peach for Agatha's Parasol and Bayonetta with Madama Butterfly to represent Agatha's love for bugs and insects as a self-proclaimed princess of them. However, ones like "BotW Zelda" probably wouldn't necessarily need to be explained considering the fighters that make up the champions have their own Spirit Battles, but could still be mentioned anyway. Adding the inspirations, regardless of how self-explanatory a few may be, does not seem like it would bloat the Spirit Battle section of the Spirit pages (I tested it). It would possibly help explain why the character, and possibly stage, was chosen over another. Wolff (talk) 23:50, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
Good point that some information is obvious just from looking at the Spirit, but there's plenty that isn't unless you have foreknowledge of the character. I was thinking that, beyond just characters and stages, we could explain hazards and conditions that wouldn't be readily apparent to people unfamiliar with the subject. What do you think of something like:
Spirit Battle parameters Inspiration
No. Image Name Enemy Fighter(s) Type Power Stage Rules Conditions Music
40
Blooper spirit.png
Blooper •Tiny Inkling InklingHeadCyanSSBU.png (×3)
Shield
2,600 Delfino Plaza (Battlefield form) •Hazard: Low Gravity •Timed battle
•Gravity is reduced
•The enemy tends to avoid conflict
Underwater Theme - Super Mario Bros •The Inklings will repeatedly use Super Jump, which mimics the sawtooth movement pattern of Bloopers.
459
Eevee.png
Eevee Yoshi (×3) (YoshiHeadBlueSSBU.pngYoshiHeadYellowSSBU.pngYoshiHeadRedSSBU.png)
Neutral
1,400 Yoshi's Island N/A •Only certain Pokémon will emerge from Poké Balls (Eevee)
•Reinforcements will appear during the battle
Main Theme - Pokémon Red & Pokémon Blue (Melee) •The three colors of Yoshi represent Eevee's original three evolutions: Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Flareon, respectively.
776
Eggman Spirit.png
Dr. Eggman Roy BowserJrHeadRoySSBU.png
•Metal Sonic SonicHeadGreenSSBU.png
Grab
13,200 Green Hill Zone •Bob-omb Festival
•Item: Shooting Types
•Bob-ombs will rain from the sky after a little while
•The enemy's shooting items have increased power
•Items will be pulled toward the enemy
Green Hill Zone •Eggman typically fights inside his Eggmobile, a round vehicle which somewhat resembles the Koopa Clown Car.
•One of Eggman's most prominent creations, Metal Sonic, is here represented by a literal metal Sonic.

Does this approach seem reasonable? Ahemtoday (talk) 13:44, July 3, 2019 (EDT)

I see no problem adding this to the Spirit Battle section of the Spirit pages. However, it could just be because I've played them before, but I feel the Blooper and Eggman fights might be more self-explanatory (at least why it's inkling and Eggman, which can be told from the Spirit). But I guess that's perfectly fine if we do the self-explanatory ones as well. Hazards and parts of the stages could also be explained if they play an significant role. Like Latias and Latios' Spirit Battle, which that info can easily be moved from the Trivia section to their Spirit Battle section. Wolff (talk) 17:20, July 3, 2019 (EDT)
Well, I'm glad we're in agreement on this! ...Although I just realized that the topic of conversation has drifted a bit. Um, how do we conclude this? Is our final verdict "remove the Spirit battle sections from the fighter pages and create "inspiration" sections on the spirit pages"? Do we need to make a new proposal for that last part? Ahemtoday (talk) 12:41, July 4, 2019 (EDT)
I believe an admin must approve it first. As well as enough support. This idea does seem better then what was first proposed, and has my support. 47.199.39.81 12:59, July 4, 2019 (EDT)

Support adding an origin section to spirit battle pages. I'd be willing to help for Donkey Kong and Pokemon origins of the spirits at very least. Rdrfc (talk) 06:14, July 7, 2019 (EDT)

While this looks like a good idea, stages don't stand out as much compared to fighters. Also, for past Smash games, we never listed events for every stage nor their appearances in Classic Mode. ZeldaStarfoxfan2164 (talk) is bad for me 17:48, July 14, 2019 (EDT)

Well, the thing about that is that I've been convinced that this isn't really worth it, and somehow conversation has turned toward an only-tangentially related subject: adding "inspiration" sections to the Spirit battle tables. I think it might be best to make a new proposal for that, though, as it... doesn't really have anything to do with this one. Does that sound like a good idea to anyone else, or would it be a bit of a faux pas? Ahemtoday (talk) 19:51, July 14, 2019 (EDT)

Oppose There wasn't a need to do this for event matches, so I fail to see the need to do this for spirit battles. SerpentKing 16:51, September 9, 2019 (EDT)