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User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity: Difference between revisions
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I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs. | I'd also argue instead of having a special penalty for a custom matching a default move, you simply consider whether a character's custom move can be considered a clone of any of the parent's special variants. I don but with a stricter standard, since custom moves are already generally "clones" of the default move. Lucina would simply be 100% clone in SSB4 since all her specials default or custom match, while Lucas is penalized for Ness's Lucas-customs but not for Ness's other customs. | ||
This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:65.191.240.42|65.191.240.42]] ([[User talk:65.191.240.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.191.240.42|contribs]]) 04:34, 7 March | This could also apply to other attributes such as tether grabs, wall jump, etc. getting less weight than other moves. Then you don't have the issue of some characters being over 100%. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:65.191.240.42|65.191.240.42]] ([[User talk:65.191.240.42|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/65.191.240.42|contribs]]) 04:34, 7 March 2019</small> | ||
:This is not a bad idea; the only major issue I can see is that a DLC clone doesn't work nicely with it (Lucas gets a penalty on his "NS default", but where does he get his "NS custom 1" and "NS custom 2" scores from?). I'll think about it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST) | :This is not a bad idea; the only major issue I can see is that a DLC clone doesn't work nicely with it (Lucas gets a penalty on his "NS default", but where does he get his "NS custom 1" and "NS custom 2" scores from?). I'll think about it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 06:57, 7 March 2019 (EST) | ||
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: I think a good step to figure out this dilemma is to also set a criteria of what moves we should take into consideration as cloned from an unrelated character. For example in Smash Ultamite Ganondorf's Smash attacks are borrowed from Ike and Cloud, should we include Smash Attacks in this umbrella or just spacial moves. Granted I don't play competitively but I want to help in any way I can as I am very intrigued by the creation of move sets and your analysis. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 21:15, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | : I think a good step to figure out this dilemma is to also set a criteria of what moves we should take into consideration as cloned from an unrelated character. For example in Smash Ultamite Ganondorf's Smash attacks are borrowed from Ike and Cloud, should we include Smash Attacks in this umbrella or just spacial moves. Granted I don't play competitively but I want to help in any way I can as I am very intrigued by the creation of move sets and your analysis. [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 21:15, March 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::If a rule you have is inconsistent, it's better off removed. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 18:32, March 21, 2019 (EDT) | :::If a rule you have is inconsistent, it's better off removed. [[User:SammyTFM|SammyTFM]] ([[User talk:SammyTFM|talk]]) 18:32, March 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::It's better to try and fix things before removing them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | ::::It's better to try and fix things before removing them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Producer 06:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Coming back to this did you ever think of a solution Toomai? [[User:Skibot99|Skibot99]] ([[User talk:Skibot99|talk]]) 09:05, June 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== A way to incorporate physical attributes and different damage into the chart == | == A way to incorporate physical attributes and different damage into the chart == | ||
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== Redrawing the lines == | == Redrawing the lines == | ||
I'm sure you get a million suggestions about things like this, but I've noticed that the lines used to denote each section are largely arbitrary, skipping the 1st, 4th, and 5th largest gaps between characters yet utilizing the 6th largest. If one instead uses all six, it miraculously creates 3 very small limbo categories - the three of which contain a total of 11 characters - right around the quartile markers. Like, within 3.5% on all of them. ''I might not be describing this well so I've pictured it below, though this takes up a lot of space so you can remove it if necessary.'' I think this definition of drawing a rough line at each quartile would better establish the "gray area" nature of this sort of thing instead of drawing such hard lines, while at the same time giving more reasoning to the lines through more uniform use of character gaps. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 04:30, February 4, 2021 (EST) | I'm sure you get a million suggestions about things like this, but I've noticed that the lines used to denote each section are largely arbitrary, skipping the 1st, 4th, <s>and 5th</s> largest gaps between characters <s>yet utilizing the 6th largest</s>. If one instead uses all six, it miraculously creates 3 very small limbo categories - the three of which contain a total of 11 characters - right around the quartile markers. Like, within 3.5% on all of them. ''I might not be describing this well so I've pictured it below, though this takes up a lot of space so you can remove it if necessary.'' I think this definition of drawing a rough line at each quartile would better establish the "gray area" nature of this sort of thing instead of drawing such hard lines, while at the same time giving more reasoning to the lines through more uniform use of character gaps. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 04:30, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
{|class="wikitable" width="100%" style="margin:0;text-align:center" | {|class="wikitable" width="100%" style="margin:0;text-align:center" | ||
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:I skipped the 1st-largest gap (between 22.4% and 6.3%) because it's so far down on the scale between two characters that are universally recognized as not being any sort of clone. Had I added more pairs of characters with similarities but are certainly not clones, I'm sure I could fill in this gap until it no longer exists, but that doesn't seem like a good use of effort. I'm not sure where you say I'm using the 6th-largest gap from; gap 6 is between 73.3% and 68.1%, where there is no division. In addition, explicitly creating "limbo" categories that contain characters defeats the entire purpose of this exercise, which is to conclusively determine who is a something-clone and who is not. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST) | :I skipped the 1st-largest gap (between 22.4% and 6.3%) because it's so far down on the scale between two characters that are universally recognized as not being any sort of clone. Had I added more pairs of characters with similarities but are certainly not clones, I'm sure I could fill in this gap until it no longer exists, but that doesn't seem like a good use of effort. I'm not sure where you say I'm using the 6th-largest gap from; gap 6 is between 73.3% and 68.1%, where there is no division. In addition, explicitly creating "limbo" categories that contain characters defeats the entire purpose of this exercise, which is to conclusively determine who is a something-clone and who is not. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
::I miscounted that gap as being 6.2%, not 5.2%, my bad. Anyway, I don't think it defeats the purpose, I think it better demonstrates the gray areas that exist as I said (and as you said: "it's a continuous scale, even if the terms are used in a fairly hardline fashion"), but that's just a difference in philosophy I suppose. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 15:27, February 5, 2021 (EST) | ::I miscounted that gap as being 6.2%, not 5.2%, my bad. Anyway, I don't think it defeats the purpose, I think it better demonstrates the gray areas that exist as I said (and as you said: "it's a continuous scale, even if the terms are used in a fairly hardline fashion"), as well as actually making clear that this isn't a definitive thing and that people can disagree on the exact lines, but that's just a difference in philosophy I suppose. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 15:27, February 5, 2021 (EST) | ||
== Wow... == | == Wow... == | ||
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::I have no problem with you not allowing others to edit the page, but rather my issue lies with you referencing the page on discussions on the Wiki, as though it were a Wiki guideline, when you very much treat it like your own user subpage (which it is), and I'm sure there would be many points of contention among users of the Wiki regarding some of your decisions (I know I have a few). The page is currently in a sort of hybrid state where it gets the benefits of both a user subpage, and a guideline article, which I think is a major issue, since often when something on the clone article is contested, either you or some other user will point to this page, as though it were authoritative. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:18, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ::I have no problem with you not allowing others to edit the page, but rather my issue lies with you referencing the page on discussions on the Wiki, as though it were a Wiki guideline, when you very much treat it like your own user subpage (which it is), and I'm sure there would be many points of contention among users of the Wiki regarding some of your decisions (I know I have a few). The page is currently in a sort of hybrid state where it gets the benefits of both a user subpage, and a guideline article, which I think is a major issue, since often when something on the clone article is contested, either you or some other user will point to this page, as though it were authoritative. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:18, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
:::I'm not Toomai, but I don't know if calling this page "authoritative" would be accurate. Is he not doing, albeit maybe a little biased, controlled testing to come to a conclusion about how closely related clones are in Smash games? I don't think it would be any different if anyone else, admin or not, were to do the same thing. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:19, February 4, 2021 (EST) | :::I'm not Toomai, but I don't know if calling this page "authoritative" would be accurate. Is he not doing, albeit maybe a little biased, controlled testing to come to a conclusion about how closely related clones are in Smash games? I don't think it would be any different if anyone else, admin or not, were to do the same thing. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:19, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
::::Agreed with the above. There is no objective answer as to what makes a clone, and someone has to draw the lines. I don't see any viable alternative to the way it's done now. [[User:Grapevine|Grapevine]] ([[User talk:Grapevine|talk]]) 15:30, February 5, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::::Did you even read what I said? This sort of methodology is not how anything else is decided on the Wiki. One does not simply get to create a user subpage, only available to editing by oneself, and then attempt to use that subpage to control the content of mainspace articles. Please make sure you actually understand the issue I'm raising before responding. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 15:51, February 5, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::::How is this any different from the way we gather resources and information from other websites? If Toomai had posted this data on Smashboards or some other relevant website, would you still have had an issue? I really don't understand where your point is coming from. It's a user subpage, but it's still data being pulled from the games themselves. Not sure how you fail to realize that. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 20:03, February 5, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::::::Please direct me to one other example of an article's contents being almost entirely determined by the opinions of a single person. I don't particularly care where it came from. If Toomai, or anyone else for that matter, had made this on Smashboards, or any other website, we still should not be using it in the way it is. Also, this is not "data", it's a list of comparisons. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 06:53, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::::::The entire basis for Melee frame data was for years sourced from the research of one person. Similarly, more obscure techniques are also usually sourced to the work of one or two people. Why would Toomai’s case be any different? Comparisons very well do count as data. To me it seems like you’re trying to make a big deal over a non-issue. This page could be recategorized under the SmashWiki namespace and nothing would change. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 08:20, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::::::::The frame data for Melee was initially obtained by counting the number of frames that elapse when using moves in the game, and with some corrections later on, was confirmed by datamining. Frame data is a series of numbers, which can be verified objectively, because, for instance, the clean hitboxes of Fox's up smash will always become active on the 7th frame of the animation. Frame 7 is frame 7, regardless of what opinions you may have on Fox's up smash. Toomai is looking at attack animations, and subjectively deciding which moves have similar enough animations for him to consider them cloned. For most characters, animations get adjusted over time, independently of each other. So while for some clones, mostly echo fighters, many of their moves have identical animation schemes, others differ from each other, to varying degrees. So, where do we draw the line? This isn't a question with a clear cut answer. This isn't a number of frames. These 2 situations cannot be compared to each other, so it is very dishonest of you to attempt to do so. Regardless, the frame data we have now isn't simply what 1 person says it is anyway, so even if this were a valid comparison, it still would not help your argument. | |||
:::::::::Please do not be so disingenuous, should you decide to respond again. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 08:31, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::::::::How about instead of that you treat others with a little respect; I despise your tone. Show me an instance of this project being used as a means to force something through (basically being used as if it were policy) instead of it simply being used as a basis for argument. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 08:41, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::::::::::Please note that me criticising someone's use of a misleading argument is not disrespecting them, just as you saying you despise my tone is not you saying you despise me. | |||
:::::::::::Also, I didn't say it was being used as a policy, I said it was being used as a [[SmashWiki:Guideline|guideline]]. If you want some examples of it being used in this way, I can provide some from the discussions of the Clone article. [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_4#Dr._Mario_and_Mario_in_SSB4][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_4#Mario_and_Luigi][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_5#Luigi_is_not_a_semi_clone][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_5#Can_we_stop_trying_to_define_semi-clone?][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone/Archive_6#Ness_and_Captain_Falcon_in_SSB][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#Several_problems_with_the_Ultimate_section][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#Suggestion_on_changing_how_clones_are_determined][https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Clone#We_need_more_terms.]. These sections tell a story of how the page has been used more and more authoritatively over time, initially only by Toomai, but soon adopted by other users. The last example shows the culmination of this, and despite Toomai having a very active role on the clone article and its talk page, he never attempted to correct the user on their claim that his page is what determines the categorisations on the page. This is not how user subpages are used for anything else, and for good reason. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 09:17, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::::::::::As none of these examples demonstrate an overstepping of power or treatment of this project as policy, I fail to see a problem here. Toomai and others are allowed to reference this for the sake of argument. No one is claiming that this is a definitive resource of information, rather that it is a useful device for looking at full movesets for characters and picking out similarities. You may or may not agree that the similarities are actually there, these are points for the discussion that referenced the article in the first place. | |||
::::::::::::Furthermore, if you take issue with certain parts of Toomai's findings, it's more constructive to contest specifics (you brought up one, but said there were more) than to call the entire thing bunk. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 09:29, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::::::::My point still stands that the frame data at one point came from a singular source. Proper frame data tools were not available til a while later. Once again though, this page gets moved to SmashWiki namespace and nothing changes. Not sure what exactly you’re pushing for here. I also don’t understand why you think comparing moves to one another is unable to be determined objectively. This can easily be accomplished by...just looking at the moves themselves. Literally most if not all of the classifications given to each character are agreed upon by the majority of the community, Toomai or not. This is just the data that proves the similarities. Also you really need to chill out with that borderline superiority complex of yours lmao. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 08:46, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::::::::::What I want is for this subpage to be treated like every other subpage on the Wiki which is not open to contributions by other users. Also, pointing out why an example is misleading and requesting that similarly misleading examples aren't used in future is not a superiority complex, but I'm sorry if it came across as though I was insulting you personally. That was not my intention. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 09:17, February 6, 2021 (EST) | |||
== An error on this page == | == An error on this page == | ||
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The archive box leads to [[User talk:Toomai/Archive 1]] rather than [[User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1]]. [[User:Superbound|Superbound]] ([[User talk:Superbound|talk]]) 06:54, February 4, 2021 (EST) | The archive box leads to [[User talk:Toomai/Archive 1]] rather than [[User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity/Archive 1]]. [[User:Superbound|Superbound]] ([[User talk:Superbound|talk]]) 06:54, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
:Template sucks. Will try and remember to fix it when I have time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST) | :Template sucks. Will try and remember to fix it when I have time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Irrepressible 08:02, February 4, 2021 (EST) | ||
==Limbo== | |||
I know it's too early to give any definitive answer to Pyra and Mythra since we haven't seen their movesets in full, but I like to think ahead. From what we see so far, all of their attacks have the same animations except for their specials. If we consider them sharing a down special since that's likely how they transform into each other, they share 20/24 moves, roughly 83%, right in limbo range. In that case, would this be considered full clone or semi-clone? Even if one of their normals turns out to be different or if Mythra's foresight counts to subtract from the score, it's still probably a good idea to assign the limbo percentages to one of the classifications. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 16:47, February 21, 2021 (EST) | |||
:Scratch the question and turn it into a suggestion. The 80-85% range should count as semiclone based on comments on reddit and gamefaqs calling Pyra and Mythra semiclones, solidifying a consensus that that percentage is a semiclone tier. The 25-30% range should be non-clone because you erroneously rated melee Jigglypuff's jab as different in melee but the same in the original despite neither Jigglypuff nor Kirby getting a new jab, making her actual score about 6/23 or 26%. Again, even if Mythra's Foresight subtracts from her score or if there's something I'm missing about Jigglypuff's jab in melee, the limbo percentages should definitely be placed into actual categories for future proofing. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 18:14, February 21, 2021 (EST) | |||
::Going to just remind you to analyze Pyra and Mythra to see if the limbo categories need to be placed into actual categories. From what I can tell, their only different moves are all specials besides down special and including final smash, or 20/24, or 83.3% | |||
I just found out that Incineroar and King K. Rool share their down smash, down air, neutral air, forward air, up throw, all of their floor/edge attacks, and if you really want to get technical both of their down specials are counters (though Incineroar's does charge up his attacks, so 0.5). They technically share 6.5/24, or 27.1% of their moveset, right in the middle of Limbo II. I think it would be worth analyzing K Rool and Incineroar to place Limbo II into an actual category (I'm personally thinking non-clone, but you may or may not have a different opinion). [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 15:13, March 17, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== About Characters With More Than One Clone == | |||
I don't think another clone should be used to calculate how similar a move is between one clone and their parent. I find the data to be more accurate if it's purely between one clone and the parent like the charts suggest. For example, Dr. Mario's Down Special in Smash 4 and Ultimate wouldn’t be cloned from Mario (although Mario had the same Down Special in Melee). Young Link's Down Special in Ultimate would be a half-cloned move of Link's, in addition to other moves like his grab, third hit of neutral attack, and Final Smash not being cloned. This would barely push him as a semi-clone like with Pyra and Mythra. The reason I suggest this is because clones are not designed with other clones of the same character in mind (Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi, nor was Toon Link designed just to be similar to Young Link). [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 00:50, April 16, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:I initially disagreed with comparing to third characters too, but it's unfortunately necessary when they share so many moves with said third character. Although Young Link would indeed be a semi-clone if the comparison was only with Link, you have to remember that literally every move Young Link has that's different from Link is something Toon Link has, with the sole exception of Young Link having a rapid jab. Also, considering how borderline Young Link is in either case, it would just be better to not have a see also link on the top of every clone's page. Besides Richter/Daisy/Dark Samus/maybe Dark Pit, even the cloniest of clones have drastically different playstyles, so there's no need to call special attention. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 04:15, April 16, 2021 (EDT) | |||
It is indeed probably true that "Dr. Mario wasn’t designed to be similar to Luigi", but this isn't really about design ''intent''. This is about determining what parts of a character are unique, and what parts were simply copied from elsewhere to save time (as saving time is the reason clones are the way they are). Because of this, it is sometimes necessary to make a judgement call that a move was copied from somewhere other than the direct parent. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 07:39, April 16, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Dr. Mario inconsistency == | |||
In the ''SSB4'' section, you count Dr. Mario's down special as a whole point on the grounds of it being cloned from a third, related character: Luigi. However, you don't count his down aerial as a cloned move; even though the aforementioned logic applies there and both Dr. Mario and Luigi's dairs share the same genealogy as clones of Mario's pre-''Brawl'' dair. Is this just an oversight, or is there a reason you treated the move as such? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 15:16, May 22, 2022 (EDT) | |||