Editing User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity
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:"Lacking a tipper" is nothing more than different hitboxes, which is explicitly ignored when determining if a move is cloned (see: Marth/Roy in Melee). I have yet to look at Chrom and Ken so I won't say anything there. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 18:20, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :"Lacking a tipper" is nothing more than different hitboxes, which is explicitly ignored when determining if a move is cloned (see: Marth/Roy in Melee). I have yet to look at Chrom and Ken so I won't say anything there. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 18:20, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::If you insist that lacking a tipper is marginal enough to be ignored as a fully separate move, that’s fine. However, I still stand by that different hitboxes and knockback angles matter much more than animation changes, so I would reccomend still changing those from counting as 1 point to only 0.9 or 0.95 points. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine, but I definitely would not put Lucina on the exact same likes as Dark Samus and Daisy, no matter how unoriginal Lucina’s moveset is. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 20:41, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ::If you insist that lacking a tipper is marginal enough to be ignored as a fully separate move, that’s fine. However, I still stand by that different hitboxes and knockback angles matter much more than animation changes, so I would reccomend still changing those from counting as 1 point to only 0.9 or 0.95 points. If you don’t want to, then that’s fine, but I definitely would not put Lucina on the exact same likes as Dark Samus and Daisy, no matter how unoriginal Lucina’s moveset is. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 20:41, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::The problem with what you're suggesting is two-fold. One, changing 1 to 0.9 is kind of pointless; if I did this to SSB4 Lucina she would be about 22.5/24=93.75%, which is still very solidly a full clone (the exact number matters less than the box it gets sorted in). Two, it's a lot harder to determine how different a move's hitboxes can be before they're considered "not the same". How big an angle change? How big a knockback change? Does changing from Slash to Flame matter? It's the same reason I'm not comparing attributes; it's significantly more difficult to decide at what point "same" becomes "different". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | :::The problem with what you're suggesting is two-fold. One, changing 1 to 0.9 is kind of pointless; if I did this to SSB4 Lucina she would be about 22.5/24=93.75%, which is still very solidly a full clone (the exact number matters less than the box it gets sorted in). Two, it's a lot harder to determine how different a move's hitboxes can be before they're considered "not the same". How big an angle change? How big a knockback change? Does changing from Slash to Flame matter? It's the same reason I'm not comparing attributes; it's significantly more difficult to decide at what point "same" becomes "different". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] | ||
[[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 00:02, 17 January 2019 (EST) | |||
::::Coming back to this now that you’ve finished it for Ultimate, I do quite like what you’ve been doing, and i agree with most of your choices. I just still think the actual number matters much more than you’re giving it credit for. After looking back, I noticed that Falco (Melee) was listed as a 100% clone, despite being nowhere near as cloney as Daisy, Richter, or Dark Damus. Additionally, I still disagree wih Lucina being listed as more of a clone than Dark Pit. Additionally, I don’t believe that Young Link should still be listed as a full clone. I know that you think this problem is two-fold and is too complicated. So, I have a suggestion for how you could incorporate different properties, damage, attributes, knockback, etc. If you don’t want to incorporate these because it’s too complicated and time-consuming, then I repsect you for that. | ::::Coming back to this now that you’ve finished it for Ultimate, I do quite like what you’ve been doing, and i agree with most of your choices. I just still think the actual number matters much more than you’re giving it credit for. After looking back, I noticed that Falco (Melee) was listed as a 100% clone, despite being nowhere near as cloney as Daisy, Richter, or Dark Damus. Additionally, I still disagree wih Lucina being listed as more of a clone than Dark Pit. Additionally, I don’t believe that Young Link should still be listed as a full clone. I know that you think this problem is two-fold and is too complicated. So, I have a suggestion for how you could incorporate different properties, damage, attributes, knockback, etc. If you don’t want to incorporate these because it’s too complicated and time-consuming, then I repsect you for that. | ||
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::::*Slightly altered animations are fine being completely the same, and completely different animations do completely qualify as an entirely different move. | ::::*Slightly altered animations are fine being completely the same, and completely different animations do completely qualify as an entirely different move. | ||
::::*Elemental attributes like Roy’s Fire are counted as removing only 0.1%, since they’re usually insignificant. | ::::*Elemental attributes like Roy’s Fire are counted as removing only 0.1%, since they’re usually insignificant. | ||
*Knockback is... complicated. If the angle is different, remove 0.3 points. If the scaling is different, remove 0.3 points. If the scaling or angle change is ever so slightly minimal (I’m bot a professional in this, so I don’t know the exact values), just take out 0.25 points instead (since knockback is a lot more important than anything in this game). | |||
Again, if you don’t want to do this, it’s fine. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 23:44, 30 January 2019 (EST) | |||
== Cross-Comparisons == | == Cross-Comparisons == |