Editing Template talk:Attributes

{{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
{{Proposal}}
==Part 1==
It's been a while since my last contribution to the wiki, but I feel like this is a worthy one to talk about again.

Back in 2017, I observed a problem in the way we handle Attributes sections on our character pages. We would make frequent reference to a character's attributes – how fast they run, how slow they fall, and the like – but the exact numbers were nearly never listed anywhere on the page, and how those numbers ranked among the cast were not often referenced, either. If you wanted to examine a character's stats, you had to individually pick their stats out of every attribute page on the wiki.

The solution I posited to this problem was [[Template:CharacterPhysics|the CharacterPhysics template]], talk page linked [[Template talk:CharacterPhysics|here]]. Serpent King kinda had to bail my terrible code out, but the idea behind this solution received nearly no pushback. The only reason behind it ''not'' being implemented was that it looked horrible. It took up too much space, threw off formatting, and tried to cram itself with every bit of information it could possibly muster.

This template does not.

A couple things I want to point out:
*CharacterPhysics had an entire subsection, labelled "abilities", which I cut out for this iteration, because those have their home directly above a character's moveset anyway (e.g. "[[Sheik (SSB4)#Moveset|Sheik can crawl, wall cling, and wall jump]]"), and don't need to be listed twice.
*The code I have was made for a fan project and has Ultimate in mind, so it does not include a jumpsquat section, which the original did. I think this is important to maintain for pre-Ultimate Smash games, but I haven't puzzle out how to write a field that deletes itself if no value is filled in in wikitext. I think we could squeeze it in as a secondary value for the Jumps column, like how both base and additional air acceleration are present in the Air Acceleration column.
*CharacterPhysics also had a "ranking" section that did exactly what it sounds like it would do, but it was one of the things that took up a lot of space in the original template. An issue we ran into with the last version of the table was that we wanted to avoid using hidden rollover text, because back then, there was no way for mobile users to see it. Since 2017, rollover text has been updated to support mobile users by letting you view rollover text by clicking on the displayed text. Again, I have no idea how to code this, but I think we should add the ranking of each stat to the template as rollover text (e.g. clicking on Ganondorf's weight value and seeing it replaced by "5th out of 82"). This is ''important'' to implement, because for users not familiar with the general ranges of these values, the numbers will be meaningless.

If this goes through, it would be implemented on all character pages at the top of each attributes section. Please discuss. [[File:Nymbaresigicon.png]] [[User:Nymbare|<span style="color:#00BFFF">Nymbare</span>]] [[User talk:Nymbare|<span style="color:#0066FF">and his talk</span>]] 04:39, June 21, 2020 (EDT)

===Support===
#'''Support'''. I think this is a good idea. I never realized that the attributes weren't on the fighter pages. As for how to implement the rollover text, I think <code><nowiki>|| {{rollover|{{{weight}}}|{{{rweight}}}|y}} || {{rollover|{{{dash}}}|{{{rdash}}}|y}}... etc.</nowiki></code> will do what you want. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 09:26, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
#'''Support'''. Sound like a good idea. As CanvasK said, we could make it scrollable. [[Special:Contributions/46.229.158.109|46.229.158.109]] 10:29, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
#'''Support'''. Definitely a step up from what we currently have, or rather, lack. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 17:52, June 21, 2020 (EDT)
#'''Support'''. I actually do remember seeing something like this a while ago, but it was gone he next day for reasons I can not fathom. The unused Template linked at the top is perfect if the abilities section (crawls, number of jumps) is removed. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 23:01, June 22, 2020 (EDT)
#'''Support.''' This template looks absolutely mint. [[User:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:blue">'''Acgamer'''</span>]][[User talk:Acgamer28|<span style="font-family:Courier;color:red">'''28'''</span>]][[File:Acgamer28SignatureHead.png|20px]] 01:25, June 23, 2020 (EDT)

===Neutral===
#I like this idea, but I want to see if I can come up with something better. Please wait on implementing this until we can compare versions. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 07:11, June 23, 2020 (EDT)
#:Alright [[Template:Attributes2|Here's what I came up with.]] Pros of mine over this:
##Abilities are listed but not in a plagiarized way from Smashpedia
##Abilities that do not exist in a certain game are automatically removed
##Attributes are in groups rather than lumped unceremoniously together. This also allows us the room to list more of them
##Values and rank both visible without rollover
##Includes jumping attributes
##Links go directly to the attribute's rank list per game
#:I did not include additional air acceleration because I felt that it was remote enough a statistic that it wasn't necessary to list. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 08:33, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
#::I personally think abilities do not need to be listed, as very few characters tend to have them (Float in particular only being on two), as well as most of them already being listed above each characters' moveset sections, the individual pages for each ability, and the fighter ability page. Everything else looks good though. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 14:45, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
#:::Sure but I think it would be helpful for people to just real quickly glance at this and say oh, Luigi can crawl and etc. The fact that so few characters exhibit these abilities is all the more reason to have this imo, to clearly mark that a character has a few extra options. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 15:21, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
::::Ok, I understand about crawling, multiple jumps, and wall actions, but floating absolutely should not be on the list unless it gets replaced by an "other fighter abilities" box. The only characters who have the ability are clones of each other. Otherwise, I really like the template. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 21:46, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
#'''If it gets its own subpage, Support''' otherwise I share Miles' concerns of cluttering the main fighter pages. Also I don't think floating should be listed as one of the checkmark sections because it's a signature ability of one character and their echo, perhaps we could use whether [[Fighter ability]] lists an ability as single character or shared to determine if it should get a checkmark or if it should be mentioned in the subpage, but not within the template itself. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 01:08, January 20, 2021 (EST) 

===Oppose===
In its current form, '''absolutely oppose'''. We already overdo it on raw technical data on too many pages and this would over-emphasize it that much further. This kind of stuff should be relegated to subpages or external data repository sites, not a weighty infobox taking up substantial space on the main character pages. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:15, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
:I wouldn't be too opposed to having one of these (mine or Nymbare's) in a subpage, but it would need more than just the table. Kind of awkward to have it floating there with nothing else around it <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 15:23, June 28, 2020 (EDT)
::I mean, to me it seems similar to a case like [[bulbapedia:Pikachu (Pokémon)/Generation IV learnset|Bulbapedia's game data subpages]] which exist to keep information organized without further cluttering the already-lengthy main article. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:35, June 28, 2020 (EDT)

==Part 2==

I think we can agree that we should do this in sub pages, now all that's left is to figure out which version we are using:<br>
(<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 10:02, February 6, 2021 (EST))
===Votes for this version===
#'''Support''' This version is not bloated with two-character gimmicks like floating or wall clinging, and frankly having them in a purely vertical table looks nicer. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 10:32, February 6, 2021 (EST)
#This is basic yet very important information that should be immediately available on the main page, it is pretty ridiculous that you can't just get this information from gleaming the character pages as it currently stands. I also don't see the bloat concerns, this is some of the most important data for characters, and the infobox in Nymbare's suggested template can neatly fit on character articles as is. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:57, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::::I think the bloat concerns are regarding the other option available to vote for, not this one. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 23:33, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
#'''Support''': per above. I think  there are a couple parameters from the other option that should probably also be added here, such as jump height and jumpsquat, but otherwise this is the version an attributes table should be.  It's simple and clean (yes, that KH pun is intentional), and important information that should have been documented on every fighter page a decade ago. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 23:33, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:I have tested how this version would look like on [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Mario_(SSBU)&diff=1791703&oldid=1788461 Mario's Ultimate page]. Partly to see if the horizontal space the table takes was too much, and partly to see people's opinions on the location of where this should be. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 15:51, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

===Votes for [[Template:Attributes2|the other version]]===
#Since this goes into a subpage, being "bloated" is actually a good thing, it just means it is more complete. The other version is more compact but it misses information on jump heights and air friction, for example. Being more compact in my opinion also means making a subpage for it unnecessary. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 12:16, February 6, 2021 (EST)
#I somehow missed this proposal but I'm in full support. There is no reason why we shouldn't have something like this. I chose this version since I believe it would be important to contain all of the needed information if we're even going to do it in the first place. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Ultimate Toad|<font color="#0BF">Ultimate Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Ultimate Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ultimate Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 20:58, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
#<s>After reading the two versions back and forth, I think this one might actually overall be better outside of the first row of "abilities", which should be axed completely, and move the amount of jumps to jump attributes. The one I initially supported is missing some valid attributes. I mentioned jump height and jumpsquat above, but I realize that there are three different completely valid jump height values, as well as air friction and fast falling speed. I might make my own Attributes3 template, or edit this one to remove the first row if that's okay.</s> I have made Attributes3 based off of Attributes2 and made an Attributes4 (with the missing info added) after this template, and after copying Arttributes4 into this template, I go back to my original vote. ![[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 00:24, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

===Comments and proposed changes for either version===
:I think if this version is used there should be a "game" parameter. The idea is that this could be used in a switch statement that would then assign a variable with the number of fighters in that game. This would remove the need for the "cast" parameter and prevent the need to edit 80+ pages when a new fighter is released. Something along the lines of <code><nowiki>{{#vardefine:cast|#switch: {{{game|}}}|SSB|64=12|SSBM|Melee=26|SSBB|Brawl=39|...}}</nowiki></code>. Fighter pages would still need to be updated with new fighter additions, however only those whose rank changed would need it instead of every fighter. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:49, February 6, 2021 (EST)
::I just noticed that Serpent King's version does just that. I'm a little confused on why a subpage was agreed upon. Looking at the Bulbapedia argument, the information on their subpages are still on the mainpage. I can easily see Nymbare's being slotted at the top of a fighter's attribute section. I think if SK's had the headers for "character (SSBX)" and "ground attributes" it would be a lot thinner and would also fit in an attribute section. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 12:54, February 6, 2021 (EST)
:::I put together a [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/432023433287696395/807674494079991858/attrTempTest.png preview of what I was thinking]. Top two are simply at the top of the section with a modification to SK's design, displayed on a 1024-wide monitor. Next two are on a 1920-wide monitor with an additional <code>float:right</code> attribute. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 13:15, February 6, 2021 (EST)

Even though I voted for the first version, the 2nd is also fine. What made me turn away from the second one was the presence of whether the character has the floating mechanic. Only two characters have it, and they're clones of each other, so it's unnecessary. Listing float would be like listing if the character has a passive shield, since only 4 characters have it and 3 are clones of each other. Remove float, and the 2nd template is great. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 19:00, February 7, 2021 (EST)

I have made [[Template:Attributes3]] as a modified version of Attributes2 without the bloat, and [[Template:Attributes4]] as a modified version of this template with the missing info (though I need help making it vertical instead of horizontal). [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 01:01, April 19, 2023 (EDT)

I have some questions on how to handle jumps. Melee and Brawl had a jump force attribute, which determines the velocity one leaves the ground, separate from air speed and gravity. It did not return in Smash 4 and Ultimate, which instead use the gravity attribute to determine velocity. Should the jump force attribute be added, or no because it only exists in certain games, and should multiple attribute templates be made to accommodate stats that only exist in certain games? Additionally, Smash 64 increases jump height with stick inputs, with each character having a different multiplier. I'm going to assume only the max height should be listed, with the minimum height being listed as the short hop, but should a separate template be made to accommodate the existence of the stick input multiplier that only exists in that game? And how should characters with multiple double jumps have their heights listed? Should only the first one be listed with the knowledge that each one gets smaller, or should it be given its new cell in this template separate from the other jump heights to add in every individual double jump height? [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 03:36, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I also have some questions on if we should include dash frames and ground acceleration listed on the [[Dash#Running speed|Dash page]]. We have air acceleration, so what about ground acceleration? On the one hand, the more info the better, but on the other hand there's an additional four values to add that are way too much for one person to handle. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 18:12, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

I'd like to raise another concern. In the event another smash game has dlc, every single character page would have to be updated under the current state of either of our current attributes templates. I don't exactly know how the code for the special moves template works, but I highly recommend if we do get  attribute tables on each page, we have it work like that where only one page has to be updated when doc comes out. In this case, I also recommend making different game attributes templates (e.g. attributes64, attributesmelee, etc.); this not only prevents these templates from being so big it's impossible to find anything/load slowly, but it also solves the issue of stats that were homogenized or removed in later games (such as jump force from melee and brawl being removed, jumpsquat for homogenized in ultimate, or initial jump height for added in ultimate) [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 00:18, April 24, 2023 (EDT)

== Which format to use and which stats to list ==

Ultimate Toad has brought this discussion up again on Discord, but for those who aren't on there, I'd like to bump this discussion directly on the wiki. From what I have read, it seems like everyone who has contributed to this discussion is in agreement that we should list every character's attributes directly on their pages; the disagreement revolves around a small amount of stats to include and exclude (although some such as weight and basic movement are agreed) as well as which format to use. Regardless of how it's done, I currently have [[User:Unnamed_anon/AllCharAttributes|a work-in-progress draft listing all of the stats for Ultimate and Melee characters]]; I do need help adding stuff there, as I do not have the time nor energy to analyze over 100 characters across the series all on my own. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 21:30, October 13, 2023 (EDT)
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