Editing Talk:Kazuya (SSBU)

== Do the characters Kazuya threw into the volcano reference other Tekken characters? ==

Was anybody else in Tekken thrown into an active volcano besides Heihachi and Kazuya? I initially thought the characters chosen were arbitrary, but then I realized that Ganondorf hasn't had a CG model in any  Smash 4 or Ultimate trailer yet (he was in K. Rool's, but that was a still image), and Min Min's trailer was in a completely different animation style. I was thinking Ganondorf represents Heihachi, Min Min represents Xiaoyu, and Marth represents Yoshimitsu, but I don't know who Captain Falcon and Pit could relate to, and it still might be arbitrary. [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] 05:08, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
:I think Ganondorf is a loose Heihachi analogue being the game's standard beefy human/gerudo villain while the rest are mostly arbitrary with Min Min and Kirby being chosen for the gags they bring. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 05:43, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
::Unless you're talking about adding a trivia point, this is not where you talk about this. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 11:02, June 16, 2021 (EDT)

== Did Sakurai mean hitlag or hitstun? ==

For those who watched the presentation, at one point Sakurai said that Kazuya hardly has any hitstun. Unless my knowledge of the two terms is wrong, the animation afterwards shows Kazuya's attacks dealing hitlag when he hits them and they freeze before getting launched and then showing without hitlag when he hits them and they immediately get launched. I would think that hitsun would be necessary for his combos. Did he mean hitstun or hitlag (hitstop in other games I think)? [[User:SacredFire37|SacredFire37]] ([[User talk:SacredFire37|talk]]) 11:38, June 28, 2021 (EDT)
:It's evident he means freeze frames, which our community calls "hitlag" but the translator chose to write as "hitstun". (This is why people shouldn't be using both terms, because they're so confusing together.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Researcher 11:43, June 28, 2021 (EDT)
::In the presentation I heard him say [https://youtu.be/iMy8Ah4eQ8g "hitstop"], which is what we call "hitlag". Additionally, just looking at the footage and his example, there is no hitlag. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:50, June 28, 2021 (EDT)
:::Indeed, "Hitstun shuffling" is Nintendo's official term for SDI, which is performed during what we call hitlag, so at the very least it is internally consistent (if still confusing in the greater context of FGC linguistics). [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 12:39, June 28, 2021 (EDT)

== Vernacular for "Uncrouching Attack" ==

The broader FGC already has a term for this type of input, "While Standing" or "While Rising", abbreviated "WS" (because "WR" is instead understood to be "While Running"). As the input is inherited to Smash as a direct result of a Tekken character's inclusion, I think it would at least be prudent and respectful to use this pre-existing terminology on the wiki page, both for players getting involved in Smash from a prior background in Tekken and for players who decide to immerse themselves in Tekken after trying and enjoying Kazuya's Smash gameplay. [[User:DevNode|DevNode]] ([[User talk:DevNode|talk]]) 00:15, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
:Because Smash Bros. has floor attacks and edge attacks, both of which have been referred to as "standing" or "rising" attacks in the history of the Smash Bros. community, importing the term here is a poor and confusing choice. "Uncrouching" was selected due to its complete unambiguity, in addition to following the established pattern of naming moves after inputs. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 16:53, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
:I should also note that people can call it a "standing" or "rising" attack all they want in the prose of a page (and I don't think we'd be able to stop them without banning everyone). The one context this matters is in the explicitly formulaic name of the move for technical purposes. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Victorious 17:11, June 29, 2021 (EDT)

== General moveset table organization ==

People are going to be upset with me that I am enforcing a certain standard for how the moveset table here is structured. I will attempt to explain why here.
* It is far more difficult to merge any of these moves together than it is to keep them apart. For example, we cannot simply pretend the up-forward tilt and down-forward tilt are simply angled variations of the forward tilt (like Little Mac's or Peach's f-smash), because they have a different number of segments. Therefore, it makes the most sense to keep them apart, and make a note of things such as sharing staleness slots (if it turns out that is the case).
* Having extra tables for extra moves (like the command inputs) is not desired because it breaks up "the moveset table" into multiple parts that will therefore have different column widths (which tends to look messy) and have prose jammed between screen-width tables (which is also messy). Yes I'm aware some other characters like Ken already do this. I have a plain to fix them too, at the same time as when I can modify the main template to handle the Kazuya stuff.

I will revisit this organization once the character is out and we have the technical data. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Polychromatic 17:21, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
:I've made an attempt to extend one of the moveset templates [[Special:PermanentLink/1590662|in my sandbox]]. It works on #loops and it should work on fighters with any number of non-standard attacks. I also tried #forargs but ran into an edge-case where (for fighters with multiple inputs like Link's FSmash or Kazuya's everything), something like "extratiltdamage123" could be read as input #23 on extra #1 or input #3 on extra #12 (the attempt can be seen in a comment). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 18:30, June 29, 2021 (EDT)

:I don't know, in my opinion, the table looks really confusing and hard to read with all the moves in separate rows. It'll look even worse when each of the moves start having paragraphs for descriptions. I think for the sake of readability that we group them together, with the obvious note that the grouping is not official. Additionally, most of the moveset tables have always really only comprised the standard moves or moves that can be grouped into those standard moves, other moves and mechanics are usually put in separate tables below. A paragraph about those non-standard moves / mechanics above a designated table makes it easier for people who are unfamiliar with the character and their moves/mechanics to understand them, so I don't think it makes it look messy. If column width is a problem, it can always be changed in the editor. If the template can be redone entirely to comprise standard and non-standard movesets while also keeping it consistent and readable and understandable, I'm for it, the moveset template has also been a bit messy especially when it comes to characters like this. I am also of the opinion that we should wait until we get all the technical information to make any kind of accurate grouping, if there are any.--[[User:MontztheMan|MontztheMan]] ([[User talk:MontztheMan|talk]]) 20:34, June 29, 2021 (EDT)

== Why can’t we edit ==

Just wondering, as I had found out the damage output for the sweetspot in his forward smash (24.5% uncharged) when Sakurai landed it uncharged and wanted to add it, but I can’t 
[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 17:57, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
:The page has been protected as is standard for the subjects of new and recent releases. Users can still edit if they meet the account age and edit count criteria. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 18:02, June 29, 2021 (EDT)

On another note, adding damage percentages and frame data from pre-release footage is usually discouraged. Just wait for the final release, it's only a few hours away. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 18:19, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
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@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 :I don't know, in my opinion, the table looks really confusing and hard to read with all the moves in separate rows. It'll look even worse when each of the moves start having paragraphs for descriptions. I think for the sake of readability that we group them together, with the obvious note that the grouping is not official. Additionally, most of the moveset tables have always really only comprised the standard moves or moves that can be grouped into those standard moves, other moves and mechanics are usually put in separate tables below. A paragraph about those non-standard moves / mechanics above a designated table makes it easier for people who are unfamiliar with the character and their moves/mechanics to understand them, so I don't think it makes it look messy. If column width is a problem, it can always be changed in the editor. If the template can be redone entirely to comprise standard and non-standard movesets while also keeping it consistent and readable and understandable, I'm for it, the moveset template has also been a bit messy especially when it comes to characters like this. I am also of the opinion that we should wait until we get all the technical information to make any kind of accurate grouping, if there are any.--[[User:MontztheMan|MontztheMan]] ([[User talk:MontztheMan|talk]]) 20:34, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
-Now that we have the data, I think it is safe to say that the current grouping and naming is about as correct as it's going to get. The extra moves do not have any more or less importance than the typical moves, and testing gives evidence that nothing shares staleness and thus should not be squeezed into sharing rows. The general moveset table template is planned to be updated to reflect this within a couple days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Loony 17:24, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
 == Why can’t we edit ==
@@ Line 38: / Line 36: @@
 On another note, adding damage percentages and frame data from pre-release footage is usually discouraged. Just wait for the final release, it's only a few hours away. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 18:19, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
-== Who do Ryu and Lucario represent in the classic mode route? ==
-I can safely assume Little Mac is Steve Fox (boxing), Captain Falcon is Howarang (biker), DK and K Rool are Roger and Alex (similar types of animals), the Miis are the generic Tekken Force soldiers, and the Kazuya at the end is Jin, but I can't tell who Lucario and Ryu are. I noticed Ryu did a lot of Tatsumakis, so he might represent Eddy Gordo, and considering Lucario is based on an Anubis, I'm thinking the Egyptian fighter Zafina (plus her Tekken 7 moveset features her using a demon's power in a similar way to what Aura looks like), but I'm not too sure about those. [[Special:Contributions/68.4.176.97|68.4.176.97]] 23:03, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
-:Bumping this since the table was added with no mention of said references, particularly the obvious two (DK/K Rool to Roger/Alex and Little Mac to Steve Fox). [[Special:Contributions/68.4.176.97|68.4.176.97]] 02:04, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
-:I'm guessing you haven't checked the table in a while, since they have the Ryu and Lucario references. They reference ''Tekken''-style games outside of the Tekken canon. Ryu represents ''Tekken X Street Fighter'' and Lucario represents ''Pokkén Tournament''. Also, the boss fight against Kazuya Mishima and Metal Kazuya Mishima has nothing to do with Jin. Why are there two Kazuya Mishimas that fight you one after the other? Because the final boss of ''Tekken 7'''s campaign mode (throughout which you play primarily as Heihachi), is Kazuya Mishima and then Devil Kazuya, who at this point isn't a distinct character anymore, and is simply a powered-up form of Kazuya Mishima's, thanks to the events of ''Tekken 4''. This is why the second Kazuya Mishima is metal, since that makes him harder to K.O. than any old OP fighting game DLC character, kind of like Devil Kazuya. [[User:IMDCombee|IMDCombee]] ([[User talk:IMDCombee|talk]]) 14:53, May 21, 2022 (EDT)
-== Input for Gates of Hell is incorrect ==
-Wanted to edit myself but the page is locked. The command input for Gates of Hell is down-right, down, down-right the page states it's right, right. [[User:Volpeony|Volpeony]] ([[User talk:Volpeony|talk]]) 23:25, June 29, 2021 (EDT)
-:Fixed, thanks for pointing it out. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:17, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
-== Bionic-Mii reference ==
-If they are a reference to Tekken 4, then they are meant to stand in for Heihachi's Zaibatus forces, who Kaz beat up in the trailer. Makes no sense for it to be the corp that revived him.--[[Special:Contributions/95.223.73.154|95.223.73.154]] 09:18, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
-== Want to add something but can’t, so can someone else please add this for me ==
-To his forward smash I would like to add: ‘Overall the second strongest forward smash in the game, narrowly beating {{SSBU|Ganondorf}}’s and just about allowing {{SSBU|King Dedede}} to maintain the title’
-[[User:MetaKnightX6|MetaKnightX6]] ([[User talk:MetaKnightX6|talk]]) 13:22, June 30, 2021 (EDT)
-== Kazuya's jump squat is 6, not 7. ==
-Since we can't edit, letting you know here. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Kenny U|Kenny U]] ([[User talk:Kenny U|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kenny U|contribs]]) 15:29, July 1, 2021 (EDT)</small>
-:While coded as 6, it comes out to be 7. [https://mobile.twitter.com/Meshima_/status/1410074630048550912 Source]. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 15:49, July 1, 2021 (EDT)
-== The second hit of down-forward tilt has a shield-damage multiplier ==
-At least that's how it was presented in the direct. Idk if we have hard data on what that multiplier is though. Either way, it should probably be mentioned in the attack's description. --[[User:Lumosterris|Lumosterris]] ([[User talk:Lumosterris|talk]]) 14:49, July 2, 2021 (EDT)
-:It's a shieldstun multiplier, not additional shield damage. As such, it's not worth noting since a ton of moves have that. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 14:55, July 2, 2021 (EDT)
-:Oh, strange! Thanks for the info man, I wonder why they decided to do that :/ --[[User:Lumosterris|Lumosterris]] ([[User talk:Lumosterris|talk]]) 16:45, July 2, 2021 (EDT)
-== Classic Mode Stage 6 ==
-The Mii Fighters used during Stage 6 are derived from the Guest Miis. The game will select three Guest Mii designs at random, and each one will appear twice. This is unlike other Classic Mode routes, in which all Mii Fighters use their respective default design. [[Special:Contributions/69.136.251.136|69.136.251.136]] 22:57, July 5, 2021 (EDT)
-== Down Air Meteor effect==
-Go to training mode
-pick kazuya and fox [cpu]
-have Fox on the jump command. Then use dair [[Special:Contributions/76.224.228.130|76.224.228.130]] 16:08, July 7, 2021 (EDT)
-== finishing off that edit summary... ==
-edit is [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Kazuya_(SSBU)&curid=131073&diff=1606177&oldid=1606158 here]
-First sub-point is already explained in the body of the article.
-Second sub-point is speculative, uninteresting, and tbh kind of stupid. I highly doubt that man has never in his life said the word "wins", and it's not that big of a deal if they had him come in to record lines anyway. Just pointless. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 14:01, August 9, 2021 (EDT)
-==Brr and Tea should be notable players IMO==
-{{Sm|Brr}} because of his 9th at Low Tide City and attendance at major tournaments and {{Sm|Tea}} because he is one of the best players in the world having a kazuya pocket.[[User:ClemSSB|ClemSSB]] ([[User talk:ClemSSB|talk]]) 12:39, March 3, 2022 (EST)
-:They were being discussed already. While Brr is the best Kazuya player in the US. People want to see another result at a major to determine whether he is significant or not. And for Tea, while he did win 3 online tourneys, it doesn't make sense to call him significant as he barely has much results with the char. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 22:32, March 3, 2022 (EST)
-::Although I don't see the addition of Brr necessary due to the lack of sufficient results, I feel as if {{Sm|Tea}} might have enough to be added. He has wins over Shuton, Goblin, and Ouch!? with Kazuya. He also won major, Crown II, comaining them for the run. It is still a small sample size so the argument to not include him is valid, definitely someone we look at in the future though because it isn't going away any time soon [[User:Swidd|Swidd]] ([[User talk:Swidd|talk]]) 13:51, July 18, 2022 (EDT)
-:::Tea for sure, I believe a consensus was reached on Discord. Brr really only had 1 good result with Kazuya, most of their other results, even nationally, have been disappointing to mediocre. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 14:27, July 18, 2022 (EDT)
-== Kazuya's Left Splits Kick is a Double Forward Tilt, not a Double Dash Attack ==
-The input necessary to perform the Left Splits Kick does not make Kazuya dash forward in any way; you merely tilt forward twice. I assume that most players find it easier to dash twice to make the move come out leading to it being called such, but the labeling of it being a Double Dash Attack is inaccurate. If possible, the move input should be renamed in cases where it is relevant on this wiki from "Double Dash Attack" to "Double Forward Tilt".
-[[User:Blue Sun|Blue Sun]] ([[User talk:Blue Sun|talk]]) 19:18, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
-:Double FTilt might confuse some people into thinking that the input is forward A forward A rather than forward forward A. I think a rename could be useful, but I'm against Double Forward Tilt. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 21:31, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
-::You know, I should have thought about just calling it forward+forward tilt instead of double forward tilt now that you mention it. Anyone else in agreement of renaming Double Dash Attack into Forward+Forward Tilt or some variation thereof? [[User:Blue Sun|Blue Sun]] ([[User talk:Blue Sun|talk]]) 22:12, August 25, 2022 (EDT)
-I can't deny that the current name is indeed less accurate than the proposed one, and being exclusive to one character makes it much more possible to change compared to any other move. I'm curious why people think that "double forward tilt" is any more confusing than the current "double dash attack". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Engineer 08:10, August 26, 2022 (EDT)
-== Add Ban Discussion? ==
-Seeing as Steve has a ban discussion and Hero has a ban controversy, should Kazuya get one too? Kazuya has been discussed for a ban at the same time as Steve with his strong attacks and having intangibility on a lot of his moves. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 16:59, October 23, 2022 (EDT)
-:For sure, just no one had the time to get to it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:55, November 28, 2022 (EST)
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