Editing Talk:Artificial intelligence

Has sakurai been asked about the brawl 'learning system'? Those 2 videos don't exactly prove AI learn. I'm guessing those videos were luck.

It doesn't exist. Just an urban legend. The game's been hacked to death and no traces of the AI being able to learn are present. [[Special:Contributions/124.171.99.201|124.171.99.201]] 12:42, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Some of this is written in a...strange manner (overuse of the word spam, in particular), and I do not think that it is necessary to list ''specific'' examples of poor AI play. Perhaps it would be better to generalize?
:I much prefer to have in-depth analysis than a simple definition, although I agree this page could use some cleanup. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 06:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
==1>9????==
I still don't understand how you can improve yourself by playing against a laughably easy opponent, CPU or not. - [[User:Gargomon251|Gargomon251]] 11:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

~I am not so sure about that either...but still, level 9's in Brawl do not provide good practice.

Level 5. enough said.[[User:Smorekingxg456|Smorekingxg456]] ([[User talk:Smorekingxg456|talk]]) 14:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

It says why in the article...
Are you gonna learn to be good from playing against opponents who's whole strategy revolves around spamming, not to mention their in-human Power Shielding skills, and the fact that they don't DI as well as LV1s which makes your combos work, when they wouldn't wor on a normal player.

Playing against a Level 1 lets you practice combos, without being interruoted every 5 seconds with a Power Shield.

I thought it was pretty obvious... [[User:Lord-Sunday|Lord-Sunday]] ([[User talk:Lord-Sunday|talk]]) 02:40, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

== Learning to "taunt-by-ducking" ==

Is it not just that while there are no opponents on the stage, a CPU would only employ defensive tactics, such as rolls and ducking? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:14, 31 May 2011 (EDT)

== CPUs SUCK!!!! ==

CPUs are the worst opponents in Brawl. I can name several reasons:

1. They agitate the player by getting in the way.
2. They act like a team to defeat the player and after the player is defeated, taunt like they've won.
3. Their AI is drastically increased, making it easy to outmanouver the player.
4. I can name the two most awful CPUs: Zero Suit Samus and Snake.
5. Stages are CPU-friendly, but are human unfriendly.
6. Lv. 9 CPUs make things much, much worse.
7. Get beaten by CPUs and throw Brawl away.
8. They make you feel like the Angry Video Game Nerd.

Never be bothered by CPUs again. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:68.174.210.87|68.174.210.87]] ([[User talk:68.174.210.87|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.174.210.87|contribs]]) 17:32, 6 June 2012‎</small>

:And nobody cared. --- <font face="American Typewriter">''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]][[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]], Author Extraordinaire''</font>, 12:34, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
:Some of the reasons are false. [[User:.....|.....]] [[User talk:.....|The]] [[Special:Contributions/.....|Scientist]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 14:26, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
:[[SW:TALK|Before you post something like that again, read this.]] [[User:Avengingbandit|'''''<font color="#00ff00">Avengingbandit</font>''''']] 16:39, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
::I'd like to point out that AvengingBandit was the one here who handled this situation properly. RD and Dots: your comments were as unnecessary as the IP's, and in the future, link the IP to the appropriate policy or don't reply instead of adding more unnecessary discussion. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 16:57, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
==An Additional Flaw?==
Several times in the Mushroom Kingdom level in the original Smash Bros I have seen two opponents (on the same team) seemingly become stuck running into each other when I am standing a little left of the left pipe on the second floor. They shortly "unstick" themselves after a few seconds and continue to come after me. Is this another flaw or a glitch? Here are the details: there were two level 9 CPUs (Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon) on the red team while I was Link on the green team. They became stuck (after I moved to the position previously mentioned) a little right of the left pipe on the first floor. This has occurred a few times although not necessarily with Captain Falcon every time.  Oh and it was a 3-stock match with all items on. [[Special:Contributions/173.58.244.214|173.58.244.214]] 02:39, 3 August 2013 (EDT)
:CPUs in Smash 64 are prone to stay on the Brick Blocks when opponents are below them (more commonly than above them), as well as becoming stuck behind any stage feature as small as the pipes, as they do not recognise walls or floors properly. This can and will happen regardless of match rules or CPU level, and the number of CPUs does not affect its likelihood. If information you believe constitutes a genuine flaw (this does) is not present on the page, simply post it and others shall evaluate its worth. [[User:Oasidu|Oasidu]] ([[User talk:Oasidu|talk]]) 23:12, 20 October 2013 (EDT)

== The latest claimed AI cheating proof ==

While a valiant attempt to prove whether the AI has 0-frame reaction time, the given .gifs leave enough room for ambiguity that I don't think we can claim it. My reasoning:
*Peach's air dodge makes her intangible on frame 4.
*ZSS's up air his on frame 4. However, frame 4 is missing from the .gif, and on that frame ZSS's extended leg points sideways slightly below horizontal; it doesn't look as if that hitbox would have connected. The .gif only has frame 5, where ZSS's leg hitbox is right inside Peach's intangible hurtbox.
From what I can tell, this is simply a reaction time of 1 frame, not an AI that reads your buttons. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Glow 13:08, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

:While I didn't understand correctly.. I will try to recapture it better. Please leave the 2 images for now.--[[File:MegadarderySig.png|x20px|link=User:Megadardery]][[User_talk:Megadardery|egadardery]] (<small>[[Special:Contributions/Megadardery|edits]]</small>) 13:18, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

::Recaptured, another check please?--[[File:MegadarderySig.png|x20px|link=User:Megadardery]][[User_talk:Megadardery|egadardery]] (<small>[[Special:Contributions/Megadardery|edits]]</small>) 13:32, 25 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Alright I'll give this a thorough go-over. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Honcho 14:08, 25 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Okay then. I used http://gif-explode.com/ to separate the image into pieces and compare each relevant frame with the two characters' frame data and animations (using BrawlBox). I came up with [http://i.imgur.com/hZt1gPe.png this]. As far as I can tell, the 1 frame of leeway before the attack was to hit was enough for the CPU to recognize you had changed to an attacking state and input a dodge. This is simply frame-perfect, not button-reading. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Orchestral 14:37, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

::::Thanks for explaining. I also tried to do the same, but instead with ZSamus's first hitbox, Peach couldn't defend it. I think it cleared that CPU uses frame-perfect but not button-reading.--[[File:MegadarderySig.png|x20px|link=User:Megadardery]][[User_talk:Megadardery|egadardery]] (<small>[[Special:Contributions/Megadardery|edits]]</small>) 15:20, 25 August 2013 (EDT)

== Linking my Youtube playlist ==

Would anyone object to me linking my [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIHpRvXPklmin_CBFUfiMDgb2DJwyTaXm Youtube playlist] in the article that shows off the various ways the AI can be exploited? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:17, 9 September 2013 (EDT)
:I see no problem with doing this. We could easily link the videos separately in specific parts of the article. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:00, 9 September 2013 (EDT)
:I'm fine with it. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:15, 9 September 2013 (EDT)
::Per Scr7. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#310080>F<font color=#490080>l<font color=#620080>u<font color=purple>ff</font>y</font>D</font>P</font>]]''''' 14:30, 9 September 2013 (EDT)

== Level change section ==

Should we have a section about how much the AI changes from one level to another? It's not convincing to just say "1 is the weakest, 9 the strongest". [[File:Crazyhandflash.gif|20px|link=]][[User:Crazymasterhand98|<font color="purple">'''Crazy'''</font><font color="gray">'''master'''</font>]][[User talk:Crazymasterhand98|<font color="blue">'''hand'''</font><font color="green">'''98'''</font>]] 20:18, 20 October 2013 (EDT)
:I would support this partially, though I feel that the sheer amount of data (which would potentially be comprised of 9 individual AI patterns (or more including training CPU modes and individual characters) times the number of games) might be a bit cumbersome to read through... [[User:Oasidu|Oasidu]] ([[User talk:Oasidu|talk]]) 21:41, 20 October 2013 (EDT)
::Nah it's a one- or two-liner. I'll add it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Altruistic 23:02, 20 October 2013 (EDT)
==Pics==
Is there anyway to show the AI flaws in a gif or picture to make this page a little easier to read/understand. If somebody could agent a gif of CPUs repeatedly walking into the building on [[Saffron City]], repeatedly misgiving their up special or maybe even use this [[File:Brawl-Snake-DownThrow.gif|200px|right|thumb|With Snake's down throw, CPUs  will simply roll over to the nearest edge, allowing for easy exploitation.]], it would make it much easier on readers. This is a featured article after all. Having video citations is fine but it is preferred to have some pictures on hand immediately. [[Special:Contributions/96.229.195.197|96.229.195.197]] 20:08, 17 December 2013 (EST)

:You're right. I already added the image tag anyway.[[Special:Contributions/75.85.64.155|75.85.64.155]] 20:04, 23 April 2014 (EDT)
== Organization ==

Maybe we can organize the AI flaws in this article by having a subsection for each character from each game. Does anyone else think it's a good idea? [[File:GreenMarioBrawlHead.png|15px]][[User:Green Mario|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#32CD32">
Green</span>]] [[User talk:Green Mario|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color:#FFA500">Mario</span>]] 15:07, 10 January 2014 (EST)

:I've done some examples in the [[SmashWiki:Sandbox|sandbox]]. I think it might be a good idea to reorganize the section; I don't like its current state really, so it needs some sprucing up.[[File:GreenMarioBrawlHead.png|15px]][[User:Green Mario|<span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#32CD32">
Green</span>]] [[User talk:Green Mario|<span style="font-family:Papyrus;color:#FFA500">Mario</span>]] 15:27, 10 January 2014 (EST)

:Is there a tag I can put on this page that says "this page needs to be split?" I would've done that a while ago if there was one. Yeah, we should split this.[[Special:Contributions/75.85.64.155|75.85.64.155]] 20:04, 23 April 2014 (EDT)

== Terminology consistency: power shield/perfect shield ==

The terms are used interchangeably in the article. I changed everything to "power shield" in my edit since that seemed to be the least ambiguous; it seemed that "perfect shielding abilities" could refer to ability in the specific technique (that is, the precise timing) or shielding in general, which could include knowing which situations to shield in. "Perfect Shield" is the title of the SmashWiki page though, so a good argument for either term could be made.

The term used is not significant as long as it is consistent. Still, one of the changes has been reverted but the rest have been left unchanged. If no one objects I will continue to use the term "power shield" in all future edits.
[[Special:Contributions/80.192.205.153|80.192.205.153]] 16:47, 25 February 2014 (EST)
:All uses should be perfect shielding. An exception might be a Melee exclusive article, which this is not. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:46, 25 February 2014 (EST)

== Since we've decided to start covering the various Brawl mods... ==

Would it be OK to add sections about AI flaws found in Project M, Brawl-, Brawl+, vBrawl and the like? (I do not have access to any of these so I can't help with this). '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User Talk:MeatBall104|Ready for speedo season!]] 14:48, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
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@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 I thought it was pretty obvious... [[User:Lord-Sunday|Lord-Sunday]] ([[User talk:Lord-Sunday|talk]]) 02:40, January 6, 2010 (UTC)
-Care for a serving of Level 6 Stew?
---[[User:Frodomar|Frodomar]] ([[User talk:Frodomar|talk]]) 13:10, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 == Learning to "taunt-by-ducking" ==
@@ Line 40: / Line 36: @@
 . They make you feel like the Angry Video Game Nerd.
-Never be bothered by CPUs again. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:68.174.210.87|68.174.210.87]] ([[User talk:68.174.210.87|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.174.210.87|contribs]]) 17:32, 6 June 2012</small>
+Never be bothered by CPUs again. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:68.174.210.87|68.174.210.87]] ([[User talk:68.174.210.87|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.174.210.87|contribs]]) 17:32, 6 June 2012‎</small>
 :And nobody cared. --- <font face="American Typewriter">''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]][[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]], Author Extraordinaire''</font>, 12:34, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
@@ Line 46: / Line 42: @@
 :[[SW:TALK|Before you post something like that again, read this.]] [[User:Avengingbandit|'''''<font color="#00ff00">Avengingbandit</font>''''']] 16:39, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
 ::I'd like to point out that AvengingBandit was the one here who handled this situation properly. RD and Dots: your comments were as unnecessary as the IP's, and in the future, link the IP to the appropriate policy or don't reply instead of adding more unnecessary discussion. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 16:57, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
-CPUs are the best opponents in Smash 4. I can give you several reasons:
-. Level 9 CPUs have perfect reactions.
-. Level 6 CPUs can make stew!
-. CPUs can effectively practice combos and edge guarding
-. They can also tech
-. They can activate hard to master moves easily at Level 6 7 8 and 9, such as Ryus inputed move sets
-. In Smash 4, they can charge up a attack on a stunned amiibo CPU or Player
-. They have good edge guarding skills in Smash 4
-. Level 9s can perfect shield almost anything you throw out at them!
-. They can air dodge attacking edge guarders in SSB4.
-. I can rarely beat a CPU above Level 7
-. Amiibo can learn from mistakes
-. Amiibo can beat CPUs!
-CPUs + Amiibo > Typical Casual / Intermediate / For fun player.
 ==An Additional Flaw?==
 Several times in the Mushroom Kingdom level in the original Smash Bros I have seen two opponents (on the same team) seemingly become stuck running into each other when I am standing a little left of the left pipe on the second floor. They shortly "unstick" themselves after a few seconds and continue to come after me. Is this another flaw or a glitch? Here are the details: there were two level 9 CPUs (Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon) on the red team while I was Link on the green team. They became stuck (after I moved to the position previously mentioned) a little right of the left pipe on the first floor. This has occurred a few times although not necessarily with Captain Falcon every time.  Oh and it was a 3-stock match with all items on. [[Special:Contributions/173.58.244.214|173.58.244.214]] 02:39, 3 August 2013 (EDT)
@@ Line 118: / Line 98: @@
 Would it be OK to add sections about AI flaws found in Project M, Brawl-, Brawl+, vBrawl and the like? (I do not have access to any of these so I can't help with this). '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User Talk:MeatBall104|Ready for speedo season!]] 14:48, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-:We're not covering any mods except for PM. Yes, we can add AI flaws for PM, but not for anything else.[[User:Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="purple">Qwerty</font>]] [[User talk:Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="silver">the</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="red">lord</font>]] [[File:Nessytrewq.jpg|16px]] 15:01, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-::The (current) policy after the Project M debate determined that PM can get character and tournament pages, but it isn't to be given equal standing with the real games, thus it doesn't get its own sections for things like techniques and such. The policy means that PM doesn't deserve its own section on this article. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 15:07, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-:::If I may add, I would like to point out that the term "vBrawl" refers to the base game of ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl''; "v" stands for "vanilla", per [[wikipedia:Vanilla software|software jargon]].
-:::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  17:40, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-Do the new mods even make an attempt at correcting the AI for the mod? If they don't (which I don't think they do), it's kinda pointless to cover it in detail, as it will obviously be flawed because the AI is thinking it's a different game. [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 18:10, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-:I haven't played ''Brawl-'' enough to tell, but the AI for ''Project M'' is improved over ''Brawl's''; they can take advantage of wavedashing and dashdancing, something which the bots in ''Brawl'' obviously can't do. I think the official changelogs for ''PM'' mention this as well.
-:They sure are proficient at suiciding, though.
-:--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  18:14, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-::Add a section under the Brawl AI thing that says<nowiki> ====Project M exclusive flaws====</nowiki> or such. Technically, that works. [[User:Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="purple">Qwerty</font>]] [[User talk:Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="silver">the</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Qwerty|<font face="sand" color="red">lord</font>]] [[File:Nessytrewq.jpg|16px]] 18:21, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-:::As Scr7 pointed out earlier, however, ''Project M'' does not  have equivalent standing as the official games on SmashWiki; while the mod is allowed to have some of its own unique pages, such as those for tournaments and characters, it is not to have sections within articles pertaining to the rest of the series.
-:::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  18:24, 27 May 2014 (EDT)
-==Amiibo==
-Since Amiibo will be an AI fighter you can modify, should it be included in the article or at least have a link included? [[Special:Contributions/98.112.97.173|98.112.97.173]] 15:55, 24 June 2014 (EDT)
-:Yeah, probably at least a See Also. I'll put that in. [[User:FirstaLasto|<font color="pink">♡</font>'''Firsta'''Lasto<font color="pink">♥</font>]] 16:09, 24 June 2014 (EDT)
-::On a side note will there be anyone to try and study the Amiibo AI for flaws when the games come out? [[Special:Contributions/98.112.97.173|98.112.97.173]] 16:12, 24 June 2014 (EDT)
-==Smash 4 AI Flaws==
-Let's start talking here about observed AI flaws in the new game (distinguishing between wiiU and 3ds of course) and demo.
-For example-
-:Tries to escape the air shooter (mega man's uair) with only air dodges (rather than moving from side to side) and often jumps while in it to a vertical KO. (3ds, demo) [[Special:Contributions/173.58.244.2|173.58.244.2]] 16:58, 26 September 2014 (EDT)
-==Split==
-The ''Flawed AI'' section alone is 73,460 bytes. I think we should split it into "Flawed AI (SSB)", Flawed AI (SSBM)", "Flawed AI (SSBB)", and "Flawed AI (SSB4)". It would make editing and organization easier, and I feel each subsection is large enough to warrant its own page. Thoughts? <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 20:27, 11 October 2014 (EDT)
-<br>Another point; the 3DS subsection is incomplete, and we still have to do the Wii U subsection, so this section could reach 80,000 bytes. Now that could cause some problems. Thoughts? <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 22:15, 12 October 2014 (EDT)
-:Maybe a separate Flawed AI page? [[User:The822man|The822man]] ([[User talk:The822man|talk]]) 16:48, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
-::...that's kind of what I said in the first paragraph; if you suggest one page for flawed AI, I would say split the pages per game. <font face="AmericanTypewriter">[[User: Rtzxy|<span style="color:darkorange;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:SmashSig.jpeg]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:blue;">Smashing!</span>]]</font> 16:50, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
-i guess that would work if you did that. [[User:The822man|The822man]] ([[User talk:The822man|talk]]) 16:54, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
-'''Support''' Per all that's been said in this section. '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|Now with lean,]] [[Special:Contributions/MeatBall104|grass-fed angus!]] 17:44, 16 October 2014 (EDT)
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