Editing SmashWiki talk:Junior administrators

This is the extended, more detailed version of the policy I have proposed on [[Talk:Main Page]]. Like I said there, this is a proposal I've had the idea for for quite some time, but feel may be necessary due to increased traffic and recent vandalism.
This is what I wrote on the other page: Tommy Barnes has struck again, this time going on right after Toomai apparently logged off. I think that with the increased traffic and activity of the wiki as it is in SSB4, it also means increased vandalism. However, interestingly, this has not meant increased admins. How do we combat this? The solution is simple: Do what a lot of other NIWA wikis already have done, and introduce "junior adminship." <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] Vandals suck. 18:04, 22 September 2014 (EDT)


===Support===
*'''Support''' Why not. We need more people to use admin powers and even if OT doesn't want users to become fully admin, trusted users can make good use of a few of the tools. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Meta Knight 18:07, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Strong Mega Support''' We only have two admins right now and rollbacking isn't enough. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  18:08, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Very Strong Support''' About 10 or so rollbackers (including me) were on the site when Tommy Barnes came on, and not a single admin was on for about 45 minutes. This will help ''greatly'' at combating vandalism. Besides, only 2 admins are currently active, but 20 or so rollbackers are also active, and rollback only solves some of the problem. [[User: Rtzxy | <span style="color: darkorange;"> '''Rtzxy''' </span>]] [[File:Signature SmashBall.jpeg]] [[User talk: Rtzxy | <span style="color:darkblue;"> '''Smashing!''' </span>]] 18:14, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Hells yeah!''' This Wiki needs more staff. And this way, we can up the Wiki's administration without giving some of the slightly less competant candidates (I don't know who exactly those are, so don't rage at me) too much power for their own good. '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|Yeah, boyyyy!!!]] 18:27, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''' Basically, just read what I said in the original discussion on [[Talk:Main Page]]. We can't just slip up and let this stuff happen again whilst being defenseless. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 18:30, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''' We need more staff to prevent ultimate vandalism, plus we only right now have 3 active admins. [[User:Awesomelink234|Awesomelink]][[User_talk:Awesomelink234|234]][[File:X-naut.PNG|19px]] You rang, dude? 18:31, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''' - This proposal is very reasonable. There's a pretty long jump between rollbacker and sysop, and junior adminship seems to be the bureaucrat ladder's missing step. Given what's outlined, it looks like there won't be any redundancy issues, which is a plus. I suggest actual limits on the duration a junior administrator can block a vandal for as suggested by the proposal, and only allowing junior admins to semi-protect pages, since full protection is normally to solve edit wars between registered users and I feel that power should only be vested in the upper admins and bureaucrats. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 18:40, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
**The reason it is only discouraged is that according to the big wiki coding people, actual limits are effectively impossible. The best thing we can do with the current MediaWiki system is to just impose strong discouragement. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] , singing the song of angry men 19:08, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Bloody Flipping Brilliant Idea''': This wiki needs more people to block vandals, delete redirects etc, but according to our current staff, nobody willing is eligible for full-on adminship. So we just give this role to the appropriate people. Genius. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]] 18:46, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''': Per above comments. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 19:16, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support, but tweak''': Per everyone in general, but restrictions should be a bit tighter. It's not ''really'' "junior" if we're giving JAs pretty much all the core abilities that full administrators have. We don't need junior administrators being able to give blocks longer than, say, a week to autoconfirmed users. I believe only admins should be able to do that. Also, the policy (in its current state) states that JAs are able to protect pages, but not edit them. It should be the other way around, because allowing protecting, but not editing the protected makes no sense to me. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 19:17, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
**Junior administrators will be able to edit protected pages. I'm not sure where it says that they explicitly can't. And your suggestions were precisely my original intention when writing this policy, but again, according to Toomai, coding this for a usergroup is impossible, so the best I can do is discouraging doing anything more. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] [[Special:Editcount/Air Conditioner|My edit count]] 19:25, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::At least don't allow JAs to protect pages. Leave that decision to the full-on admins. Unless coding for such a usergroup is impossible too. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 21:10, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''' Great idea. I'm with everyone else on this one. It is so rare to see anyone request for full-on admin ship. Without junior adminship, future smart vandals will become more nuisance. Rollback isn't enough to solve any problems and we can't just sit there and while being defenseless against any malicious vandals. [[User:Luigi540|Luigi540]] ([[User talk:Luigi540|talk]]) 19:47, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support, per everyone else here''' We need people with reliable tools to deal with vandals and surges of blatantly false informational pages. Two admins with arguably sporadic login times won't effectively cover nuisances like Tommy Barnes, and rollback is ineffective against the mass creation of spam pages. There needs to be more readily available tools. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 22:26, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support'''. I already showed my support bfore this was even a formal proposal. [[User:Tepig|Tepig]] ([[User talk:Tepig|talk]]) 22:40, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*This essentially serves to give promotions without it being as grand of a deal as becoming an admin. Users who are knowable about how to handle wiki disputes, understand how things work, and show responsibility can step up and have some power, without the full weight/ordeal/pressure that comes with being a big-cheese admin. We have plenty of intelligent and capable people who can apply for this, and especially given the circumstance of our new major game finally being out, I '''support''' this policy fully. '''''[[User:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:GOLDENROD; font-family:envirod;">--HavocReaper</span>]][[User talk:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:GOLD; font-family:envirod;">48</span>]]''''' 23:31, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Support''' - This could work. This could really work. Like everyone else said, not everyone is eligible to gain the power of full-on adminship, but we still need more people around to protect the wiki. This is a good compromise.--[[User:Starman125|Starman125]] ([[User talk:Starman125|talk]]) 23:52, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''You Have No Idea How Much I Support This''' - I don't know why people haven't come up with this before. This wiki has basically been screwed over ever since the beginning of this month, traffic is higher than Snoop Dog, and we basically need all the help we can get. Although, I do suggest that you don't just "volunteer and get the job"; rather, you have to go through several steps (not ''as'' many as one would go through to be a full admin) in order to become a "junior admin" (and maybe, if admins thought said "junior admin" is a good enough admin, they could be promoted to full admin). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 21:18, 29 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Great Idea, but lemme ad on just a little bit''' Suppose a Jr. Admin puts a user box on his page saying the they are a Jr. Admin, now a vandal can keep track of that user and strike once they leave, so I say, that this is a great idea, but if a person should receive Jr. Admin they should keep it private. P.S. Yes, I"m still alive. :P [[User:MintyGuy700|MintyGuy700]] ([[User talk:MintyGuy700|talk]]) 17:31, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
*'''Brilliant. Just a little change and this should pass.''' I think the rollback privilege recommendation is a little too much. I suggest that Jr. Admins should be hand picked by older admins, and to see if the user is actually trying to do something but can't in traffic as opposed to just not doing anything. [[User:Wizmalk|Wizmalk]] ([[User talk:Wizmalk|talk]]) 00:29, 2 November 2014 (EDT)
*'''Sounds like a good idea;''' there's just enough power here to allow inclined users to do some janitorial work without giving too many people control of the more crucial stuff. [[Image:VinSymbol.png|16px|link=User:VinLAURiA]][[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 04:07, 20 November 2014 (EST)
*'''What is wrong with this anyway?''' This is on many other NIWA wikis, so it should probably be on here, too. This will also immensely help the recent vandalism that has been going on. I really hope this gets though. [[User:SmashBros|SmashBros]] ([[User talk:SmashBros|talk]]) 10:18, 20 November 2014 (EST)

===Oppose===
*'''Oppose.''' I don't see how this would help. Blocking a vandal for two to six hours will just result in the vandal coming back after two to six hours, whilst regular bad-faith edit blocks (weeks to months) could make him/her go. The 'no deleting pages with large histories' idea is bad too, large histories have nothing to do with importance. Rollbacking can be handled by an RfR, whilst the last idea is good. <font face="sand">''[[User:Qwerty|<font color="black">Qw</font><font color="003F3F">er</font><font color="005F5F">ty</font>]] ''[[User talk:Qwerty|<font color="005F6F">(t</font><font color="003C6F">al</font><font color="000F7F">k)</font>]]</font> 19:48, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
**As a lot of people have been saying, rollback simply isn't enough. Did you not see the Tommy Barnes attack earlier? We were constantly rollbacking his spam, but it took 50 minutes before an admin came and did something. This shows that with junior admins, whenever a vandal like this comes, it will never take such a long time for them to be blocked. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 19:53, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
**Preventing the deletion of pages with large histories will enable the user to easily delete a page created by a vandal or an obvious candidate for speedy deletion, while disallowing the junior admin to delete something where the decision to delete or not should be discussed more in-depth. In addition, the two-to-six-hours rule is just a guideline for an IP who may be making good-faith edits. It says on the policy page that the "two-to-six-hours" guideline does not apply for very obvious vandals, such as people who replace pages with obscenities or blatantly attempt to harass users. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] [http://www.last.fm/user/MachineCoil My music taste] 19:55, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Oppose with a note'''. After the section below, I still just don't see the need. I think simply disproving the myth of a "stigma" on the RfA process is a much preferable alternative and adding one or two more admins under the current system would work fine. This seems like an unnecessary middle ground. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:42, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
**Admins generally have two responsibilities: to settle user disputes and to do janitorial work. User disputes tend to be relatively frequent on the wiki, however, and I would not trust anybody willing to be an admin with the responsibility of settling user disputes. However, a position of junior administrator would allow janitorial work, something this wiki already has a problem with and will likely worsen in the future, without trusting people to settle user disputes when they really shouldn't be put in charge of it. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] the funky homosapien 07:13, 23 September 2014 (EDT)
*'''Oppose.''' To be blunt, this proposal is all about "more power without the corresponding responsibility". If junior admins are not expected to be capable of settling user disputes (which really is the most significant difference between the two ranks as presented), how are we supposed to trust them to block people (arguably the crux of this proposal) if the person being blocked then raises a dispute? Or block someone who is being disruptive in a dispute? Or make the call on whether to delete a disputed page? To put it simply, in order to promote someone to junior admin status, I would have to trust them an equal amount as someone I would be promoting to full admin status (and possibly more because I'd also have to trust them to follow the extra non-tech-enforcable rules), and at that point having a separate group is pointless.<br/>Now, all that being said, I do recognize the desire to have a user level that's more than rollback yet less than admin. I have an idea or two how we could achive this, though it might take a day or two to mold them into something presentable. But suffice to say that I don't think this proposal is it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Emissary 12:16, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
**Toomai, I see your concerns and they're perfectly valid. They make me see that my proposal may, like you say, give too much power to the proposed usergroup. So, how about we do this? In my eyes, I intended junior administrators should only use blocking tools for vandals, and to leave any and all user disputes to administrators. Once a vandal is blocked, if they raise a dispute on their talk page it can be dealt with by an actual administrator, as they no longer pose a direct and immediate threat to the wiki. Deletion, likewise, I wrote with the intention of only using for speedy-deletion pages, and not to be used on disputed pages. All the tools, in my mind, should be used by junior admins solely to combat vandalism and do janitorial work. I propose that if a junior admin uses these tools for other reasons, we can give them a warning and then a removal of position if they continue. As for the non-tech-enforceable rules, I figured that even if they weren't enforceable by our wiki itself, we could still enforce it by checking Recent Changes, and leaving warnings for the junior admin (and removal of position if it continues).<br/>I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on this new usergroup. If you want, feel free to help rewrite my policy to implement some of the ideas you have in mind. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] All generalizations are false! 09:58, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
**Bump. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] This signature is way too long. 15:06, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
***I still don't really feel like this solves the problem of "As junior admin, what is your motivation to become full admin?". Even if they follow all the restrictions, they still have enough power to do all the important admin stuff while leaving most of the actual work to the full admins. That is indeed a lot of the purpose of the idea, but I feel like there has to be ''something'' to motivate people to move up. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Golden 18:02, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
****Well, essentially, admins (obviously) have authority over junior admins. I'd be interested in hearing what suggestions you have. I've been thinking of removing their ability to protect pages and restricting that to semi-protection, but MediaWiki doesn't seem to make that possible. Honestly, it's very clear that the wiki needs another usergroup with some sort of middle ground, and while this is admittedly an imperfect solution, it's the best solution currently proposed. Please tell me what changes you think I should make to this policy, and I'll try to implement your suggestions. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] can't Triforce 07:19, 20 November 2014 (EST)

===Comments===
Forgive me for asking, but what exactly is the point of this? The difference between the proposed powers of this level and those of full adminship is minimal. Why not just RfA if you think you could contribute in this fashion? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:43, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:Well, the entire junior administrator idea is so there can be users who can quickly deny attacks such as the recent Tommy Barnes one, but don't need full admin powers that they will likely be inexperienced with. That's just summing it up from my point of view. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 18:48, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
::One annoying vandal doesn't make this whole category necessary; a much simpler means of dealing with him is to temporarily make new page creation require a user to be autoconfirmed. You'll need a lot more to convince me this is a worthwhile change. Generally speaking: what are Toom and I, plus the somewhat more inactive admins, failing to do that this would accomplish? I must admit I'm not seeing it. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:52, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::That could work for a period of time, but then Tommy Barnes could just wait up and start creating spam pages when the temp protection is over. It also doesn't cover the spam he does on existing  pages; a quick block is better than people having to constantly rollback him until an admin shows up. In addition, I'm sure there are other vandals who are willing to spam pages just like Tommy Barnes has been doing. Having junior administrators reduces the potrntial of large-scale vandal attacks like this happening again. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 19:00, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
::::Again, that doesn't necessarily warrant the need for this rights level. If you think we have insufficient admins, why don't you RfA or encourage others to do so if you think they've earned it and the need is present? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 19:03, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::::I'll use myself as an example here. I think I'm a candidate for junior adminship because I'm actively around to deal with vandalism and spam all around the wiki. However, giving me full-on adminship would give me a lot of powers that I wouldn't know what to do with. I'm also not very experienced, so I'm not in the same boat as the admins who have been around here for much longer than I have. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 19:15, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::This wiki is notoriously bad for its total lack of ability to get any new admins. I don't believe I've ever even been around to see a new administrator in the two and a half years since my account creation. The stigma and sheer difficulty that comes with an RfA, as well as the fact that our best candidates have no desire for adminship, are the cause of this. We currently have two administrators, and vandals have gotten smarter: the last attack waited for both to log off, and lasted close to an hour before an admin finally blocked the guy. Even if we make new page creation require autoconfirmation, they'll still vandalize existing pages. While rollbackers can revert this easier, it still took the work of about three to five rollbackers to combat the guy. In addition, once Smash Bros. drops in the United States and Europe, this wiki will likely see an explosion in activity. While the admins are doing as good a job as anyone can right now, two admins, no matter how competent, simply will not be equipped enough to deal with what will likely be a massive backlog of janitorial work and vandalism. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] Everybody knows I'm a m------------ monster. 19:06, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::Additionally, more support for this relies on how you feel about being the only janitor here, Miles. Are you OK with it? Don't you think it would be nice if there were admins with slightly fewer powers around to perform certain tasks themselves without having to ask for it to be done? It's not that you failed or fail to do anything, the goal here is to facilitate cleaning up the messes that have been happening lately among other things. Having to refer to an admin or a bureaucrat to get something done, however long it takes them to respond, seems like it holds the the community back. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 19:13, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
::::We've only had two users RfA unsuccessfully since 2010, (not counting obvious RfA failures like brand new users), ToastUltimatum and Unknown the Hedgehog, for whom I expressed neutrality and support, respectively, at the time. Both of those were in 2012. I don't see any stigma in submitting an RfA. If you think you have the qualifications, go for it. More admins wouldn't be a bad thing, if you didn't understand me. I just don't see why we need to add this when people could just RfA within the current system. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 19:17, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
:::::I'm going to have to say that one of the reasons why RfAs are incredibly hard is because of <s>your nemesis</s> OT. If he wasn't so selective on only having professionally competent users getting adminship then those two and Mr. Anon would of been admins already. I personally see Junior Admin being a semi-admin but it is used for janitorial uses. Besides, I don't think anybody is going to have a problem with Janitors around this wiki. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Pokémon 19:26, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
::::::As far as I'm concerned, an admin should be capable of handling user disputes and actually dedicate the time to check the Wiki, along with the standard "show that you can use the tools to majorly help". Anon's inactive, and from what I recall, both Toast and Unknown were not greatly capable of handling user disputes during their respective RfAs, or just lacked evidence. If they truly wanted to, they could apply again and present said evidence. OT being selective for a dispute admin over a janitorial admin is just irrelevant. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 21:27, 22 September 2014 (EDT)

So, how does a policy like this pass or fail? There are a large amount of points in the support section, and it seems that a large amount of the community supports the proposal, with pretty much all of the opposing points having been refuted. Is there still more that needs to be done? [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:22, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
:Presenting a counterargument doesn't mean the other viewpoint is proved false, you know. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:35, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
::That's why I said "pretty much". [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:41, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

::I am completely unfamiliar with this "Tommy Barnes" fellow, if I'm going to be completely honest, but I can definitely say he's not the only person who vandalizes pages. I've seen the history of a lot of the pages here, and they've...never really been struck with a common source. Sure, starting this whole idea because of one person may seem a bit like an overreaction, but, in all honesty...it's better to take care of it now than have to deal with it later. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 21:22, 29 September 2014 (EDT)
:::In case you're wondering, Tommy Barnes is pretty much a Ridley fanboy. He keeps creating the same page (Ridley (SSB4)) and vandalize other users' pages. He's done this 20 times, I believe, and he's probably not gonna stop, although he's been doing less. [[Special:Contributions/tommy barnes 5|Here's an example of his work]]. [[User: Rtzxy | <span style="color:darkorange;"> '''Rtzxy''' </span>]] [[File:Signature SmashBall.jpeg]] [[User talk: Rtzxy | <span style="color:darkblue;"> '''Smashing!''' </span>]] 21:39, 29 September 2014 (EDT)

This proposal has been out for a while and I wanted to get this out, but are there any other thoughts about this proposal for Junior Adminship? [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Mewtwo 21:57, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:I propose an idea: how about just give users the right to block/unblock users? No deleting pages, no moving without redirects, just blocking/unblocking vandals. The past two RfA seem to only want the power to block vandals, so why not just give them the power to do that? It may seem like a stupid idea, and probably is, but if we give the power to just block/unblock vandals to certain users, then they have more powers to look forward to when/if they apply for adminship. Once again, this may seem stupid, but a man can dream, right? <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 22:09, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::Not a bad idea. But is there any user group for that? And quite personally I would agree with the two active admins that you need some certain trust users in order to trying to handle these janitorial tools for themselves. While it is a good idea to have junior admins in the first place to clean up this place efficiently, the problem is that I can't really find an extremely trusted person on SmashWiki to give it to because the junior admin tools are essentially major admin tools as well. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Barrel roll 22:27, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::It should be a good idea since I felt most users encountered vandals or often than an edit war, and they usually call an admin to handle the dispute instead of handling it themselves. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is bad for me  22:31, 19 November 2014 (EST)

:::'''"But is there any user group for that?"'''
:::You can create user groups; there's no junior admin user groups, so you just create a new group. 
:::'''"I can't really find an extremely trusted person on SmashWiki to give it too"'''
:::Well, that's your own opinion; rollback is a janitorial tool given to trusted users and we have 26 of them, so a "blocker", as I may call them, should be given to those who know what they are doing, and I see a few users that might know what to do with it. <s>You also used the wrong "to" #grammarnazi.</s> 
:::I'll probably propose something like this later, so just give me time to do so, OK? <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 22:38, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::::If you want my personal opinion on who should get this "Blocker" user group, I think we should give it to our most active rollbacker on this wiki. Again, this one ability to have is a good idea. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Pollyanna 22:45, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:::::I kind of find the name "Blocker" to be kind of strong and it could cause vandals to vandalize their user pages or talk pages. Can anyone think of a friendlier name? [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  22:48, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::::::@Dots: The most active rollbacker? Who would that be, because I can only think of a few active rollbackers that will actually rollback—and I'm one of them.
::::::@ZeldaStarfoxfan2164: The original name I had in mind was "Blockmaster", but I can probably think of a frendlier name. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 22:52, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:::::::Say I could also have this user group too since I'm also active all around (even at school in some areas) although I would be disappointed if all I did with this ability is to only block vandals that I see. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Pokéball 22:58, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::::::::I believe you'd be a good "blocker" (final name to be decided later), as would other active rollbackers (like Monsieur Crow, Berrenta, and myself). <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 23:02, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:::::::::I believe I can qualify too they have computers at college an I log on often. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is bad for me  23:05, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::::::::::I just came up with a name for this so called group, called "Wikiguards" or just "Guards". [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  20:04, 20 November 2014 (EST) 
::::::::::::That's actually not a bad name. I might consider that if I end up proposing this. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 20:29, 20 November 2014 (EST)
Here are the users I think would qualify for "Blockmaster":
*Berrenta
*Dots
*Monsieur Crow
*Rtzxy
*Timson622222
*ToastUltimatum
*ZeldaStarfoxfan2164
In other words, out of 26 rollbackers, I believe only 7 would qualify. (I also believe I may have accidentally deleted a user, so…) <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 23:08, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Please excuse me for asking what may sound like a question that has an obvious answer to it, but who is this "Tommy Barnes" I hear so much of? [[User:SmashBros|SmashBros]] ([[User talk:SmashBros|talk]]) 23:12, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:He's a user who has been a recent vandal to this wiki lately. We're trying to propose junior admins to counter this and so we can also do other stuff on this wiki like janitorial work. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="green">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:Link OoT Dots.PNG|16px]] The Wolf 23:14, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:One of the worst vandals in the wiki's history that came back about 24 times in the span of a month. [[Special:Contributions/Tommy barnes 5|Here's an example of what he pretty much did]]. In fact, he's the reason why we don't allow IPs and non-autoconfirmed users to create pages. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 23:16, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:He's also a vandal who kept making accounts to circumvent blocks. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  23:17, 19 November 2014 (EST)
::@ZeldaStarfoxfan2164: About 24 times, actually. In the span of a month. Huge problem for the wiki. Thankfully, it's over (for now, at least). <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 23:19, 19 November 2014 (EST)
:The idea behind junior administrators is not only to block vandals, but so we don't have to bother admins all the time for quick janitorial work. Vandalism is not something that happens often, and blocking people is really open to abuse. I'm sorry, but I don't think that "blockmaster" is a good idea for now. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] This part of my signature intentionally left blank. 07:20, 20 November 2014 (EST)
::Okay, thanks for telling me. This Junior Adminship thing should stop this kinda stuff. [[User:SmashBros|SmashBros]] ([[User talk:SmashBros|talk]]) 10:14, 20 November 2014 (EST)

Blocking users is one of the admin-level powers that has the most potential for abuse. Opening it up to a much larger body of users is a very dubious suggestion. As I've said before, I'm really not seeing the need for a separate class here. Either RfA or don't. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:56, 20 November 2014 (EST)
:Miles, a lot of RfAs fail because users are expecting candidates to settle user disputes, the candidates however didn't show enough proof that they are capable of dispute handling and much of our regular users usually don't get into the middle of an argument. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is made in America  20:04, 20 November 2014 (EST)
::Also, rollback is another admin power subject to lots of abuse, and we gave those powers to 26 people. The people with blocking powers would only be the most trusted rollbackers who rarely misuse rollback. <font face="Marker Felt">[[User:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#9f4f3f;">Rtzxy</span>]] [[File:Reflect.jpg|20x20px]] [[User talk:Rtzxy|<span style="color:#66CDAA;">''Reflect!''</span>]]</font> 20:29, 20 November 2014 (EST)
:::Rollbacking is something very, very easily fixed. If you abuse blocking powers, someone still ends up blocked for a while. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] Hello. 20:43, 20 November 2014 (EST)

== Just posting a stream of thought here ==

I feel like throwing something together on this that doesn't quite fit into the support/oppose/neutral format, so here goes.

Let's start by assuming the following is true:
#Users want to have a "junior administrator" rank between rollback and admin, as they want more tools than rollback but not the position and expectations of being an admin.
#Users that succeed at applying for junior adminship will not necessarily succeeed at applying for full adminship (for whatever reason).

'''What can admins do that autoconfirmed users and rollbackers can't? Why is each power restricted to a select few people? Does it make sense to form a "junior admin" usergroup with this power?'''
#add/remove group: Probation
#:Probation is far more uncommon than its bigger brother blocks, and if executed on a whim can quickly turn away the target user. No reason for a jr. to get involved here.
#apihighlimits
#:This is probably a default for safety purposes. Since no one outside the bots use the API anyway, no reason to mess with it.
#autopatrol (edits are always marked as patrolled)
#:The fact of the matter is, the patrol system is left by the wayside on this wiki; not even in the SSB4 mess do we have enough volume for it to see effective usage. Giving it to a jr. would make sense if we were to ever start using it seriously.
#bigdelete (pages with large histories)
#:I am currently unaware of whether we have any pages with big enough histories to qualify for this, so I have no comment.
#block
#:The most useful, most wanted, and most dangerous tool for controlling the wiki. Tons of blocks are needed to keep out the riffraff; one incorrect block can cause a good-faith user to permanently quit and spread negative reputation. This tool should not be given to anyone that lacks proof of judgement, and a jr. position is partly to provide this proof.
#blockemail
#:This simply blocks a user from the Special:EmailUser function. It should generally be left untouched, as e-mailing a staff member is the only way to contact someone if a talkpage is blocked.
#browsearchive (search deleted pages)
#:Pages get deleted so they can't be seen. This ability migitates that, but I have a hard time visualizing a good use case for it.
#checkuser
#:The ability to link accounts and IP addresses is not to be taken lightly. Only those with the judgement to make a proper decision with the results should be given this tool in the first place.
#checkuser-log
#:Goes hand-in-hand with checkuser itself.
#delete (pages)
#:While not as instantly delibitating as blocks, wantonly deleting a page still requires another staff member to fix it and can cause loss of search engine juice. There is a case to be made for giving jrs. this ability so they can quickly purge spam pages, which are otherwise a pain to deal with for normal users. There would however have to be a non-mechanically-enforceable rule against finishing debated deletion discussions and such.
#deletedhistory (view deleted history)
#:See "browsearchive".
#deletedtext (view deleted content)
#:See "browsearchive".
#deletelogentry
#:This ability hides specific entries in logs. It's not the kind of thing to be done on a whim and should probably be left alone.
#deleterevision
#:Similar to the above, this hides page edit revisions, and should probably be limited to as few people as possible.
#editinterface
#:This lets users edit error messages and such. Jrs. are not to have this.
#editprotected
#:Fully-protected pages are typically that way for a few reasons - they have no need to be edited ever (main page, core templates), or they need to be cooled down from an edit war or mass edit conflict (like a ton of news out at once). It's probably for the best if jrs. don't stick their nose in here.
#editusercss (other users')
#:The only way it would be necessary to edit someone else's CSS or JS pages would be if they violated SW:NPA or something. Very rare and rife for abuse potential (see: April Fools 2014), not for jrs.
#edituserjs (other users')
#:See above.
#hideuser (block and hide a username)
#:Never used, don't understand, leave alone.
#import
#:We don't need to import pages, ignore.
#importupload
#:See above.
#ipblock-exempt
#:It's rare enough to be misblocked because of a malicious IP. I could see jrs. deserving this, but it would be a throw-in.
#markbotedits (mark rollbacks as bots)
#:Never used, don't understand, leave alone.
#move-rootuserpages
#:I don't really know why it's an admin priviledge to move non-subpage userpages, but there's probably something abusatory about it. I don't really see the point.
#move-subpages
#:This lets one move and page and have all its subpages follow along. I don't really see the use case here outside renaming users (which is a bureacurat-only thing).
#noratelimit
#:Who here has ever ran into a rate limit?
#patrol
#:If we used the patrol system, our rollbackers would have this.
#protect (change protection and edit cascade-protected)
#:This allows full control over a page's protection level and also allows editing of cascade-protected pages. Protection is a very good candidate for a jr. power; it's simple, undamaging, and at the very least will force an unblocked vandal to stop and think for a bit. The unlocking of cascade-protected pages is kind of strange to roll into the same power, but as a jr. power I wouldn't mind it too much. Note however that, if jrs. are not allowed to edit protected pages, there would need to be a stiff penalty for unprotecting a page just to edit it.
#proxyunbannable
#:Ehh same boat as the ipblock-exempt, really.
#reupload-shared
#:Not applicable to SmashWiki.
#spamblacklistlog
#:I just checked this and it's empty, so...
#suppressredirect
#:This is a nice power to have and would mitigate the "no deletion" a little bit, while kind of training the jr. in question to clean up after themselves (e.g. if you delete a page, remove things that link there).
#tboverride (title blacklist override)
#:Not currently applicable.
#unblockself
#:What wiki has admins block each other anyway? I guess for April Fools or something...
#undelete
#:This may or may not go with deletion. It would allow a jr. to fix another jr.'s boneheadedness, but that's about it.
#unwatchedpages (may view)
#:Not that stellar of an ability anyway.
'''Where does this lead us?'''<br/>
I'm not really sure. Taking the spiel above at face face, a jr. admin could only do the following:
#autopatrol
#protect
#suppressredirect
This would allow improved page-move ability (for renaming images or such), increased vandal-stymying power (without going so far as to block them), and the ability to halt edit wars. It's not insubstantial, but it's weaker than what the policy as written suggested.

I guess I'm trying to say: If all a jr. admin had was those three new abilities, would people still want the position, or does there need to be something more? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Bold 19:47, 1 December 2014 (EST)
:I'd say there are a few more various harmless tools that could come in handy for janitorial work:
:#browsearchive (I presume deletedhistory and deletedtext are included in this), as I think it could be helpful to see why the original page was deleted if, say, someone tries to recreate it.
:#ipblockexempt because why not. It's not very useful, but in certain extremely uncommon situations it could turn out to be extraordinarily helpful.
:#move-subpages If we need to change, say, a character page name for some reason or other, we'd need to carry all their non-special moves with it. 
:#undelete Could come in handy and pretty harmless.
:#delete I'm sure that nobody that's smart enough that we'll trust them with junior adminship will be dumb enough to delete anything that isn't marked for immediate speedy deletion.
:#bigdelete Wait, how big exactly does the history even need to be?
:Also, I find it anomalous for a user class to be able to protect and unprotect pages but then not be able to edit protected pages. Seems redundant. <span style="font-family:Magneto">[[User:Air Conditioner|{{Color|Navy|Return of}}]] [[User talk:Air Conditioner|{{Color|#007BA7|Air Conditioner}}]]</span> [[File:AC.png|19px]] This signature is way too long. 20:39, 1 December 2014 (EST)
::#I don't think that's what browsearchive is for; I think it's the ability to go to Special:Undelete, type in the searchbox, and get a list of deleted pages by that name. If you want to see why a recreated page was deleted, you would just need the delete power (it lists all previous deletions and reasons on the deletion page). You might not even need anything but the deletion log.
::#Like I said, ipblockexempt could be a throw-in. But like admins themselves, "why not" is usually a poor argument.
::#Your example is flawed. If we were to move a character and all its subpages, we'd need a huge discussion and subsequent admin decision beforehand, and at that point it's not just janatorial work, and a full admin should be involved. As no other kind of subject has that many subpages, there's no real need or even use for the power.
::#I really don't know either way about undelete. It's mostly painless and simple, but there aren't that many uses for it: retriving information from deleted pages (which has been done maybe 3 times in our history?), undoing incorrect deletion from another jr. (good to have but really should not be happening)...and that's it really.
::#Deletion I think could be the "big stick" of jrs., if there's a stiff penalty for misuse. Maybe something like three strikes (e.g. deletion with unresolved discussion) and you're demoted.
::#Documentation of bigdelete is very poor, I have no idea. But pages with huge histories most likely do not fall in the category of "maintenance deletion".
::I think being able to apply protection, but not actually edit protected, is a nice privilege step between rollback and full admin. This isn't just about giving people more abilities, but also somewhat about creating a midpoint that encourages progression. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The SMASH-GINEER 17:59, 2 December 2014 (EST)
:::The only other thing that I could see undeletion used for would be merging page histories, but that seems pretty pointless unless someone did an improper move and no one noticed for a while (e.g. multiple edits to the "destination page". {{s|user|PikaSamus}} ([[User talk:PikaSamus|talk]]) [[File:PikaSamusSig.png|12px|link=Special:Contributions/PikaSamus|PikaSamus]] 18:12, 2 December 2014 (EST)
::(If the follow is percieved by you as to be stupid rambling, it likley is.)Since no-one's talked about this for a while, I'm also going to say something, and it's on the lines of the above... Rather than delegating individual powers, why not think about it in a manner of delegating responsibilites... By which I mean, Administration is part (read:mostly) Janitorial, part Managerial, and part Dispute Resolving. Now, the Managerial part is something I'm going to leave alone for now, but that leaves both Janitorial and DR avalible. As such, if we already have rollbackers, that subsides the Janatorial work, but all the DR work has to be done by the admins. I know it rarely needs doing, but it's something that's been on my head for a bit, so just throwing it out there. Also, whilst I kind of agree with the policy, and the above points, the storm has passed now, so let's not rush anything.Score[[Special:Contributions/ScoreCounter|C]]o[[User:ScoreCounter|u]]n[[User Talk:ScoreCounter|t]]er 15:05, 9 December 2014 (EST)

I made a new version of a junior admin policy [[SmashWiki:Junior administrators (version 2)|here]]. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Bold 15:53, 18 December 2014 (EST)

In light of the above, I move to close this as '''Failed'''. Just for cleanup's sake, although that may not be too pratical. Score[[Special:Contributions/ScoreCounter|C]]o[[User:ScoreCounter|u]]n[[User Talk:ScoreCounter|t]]er 17:15, 12 January 2015 (EST)
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